FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion

[iopyud]

@Arch/Philsov

Hmm... alright, alright. I stand corrected.

EDIT:

I got some Qs btw.

What's the % completion of this patch so far anyway?
I'm kind of holding back on easy type in anticipation for this.

Oh and are you tweaking the difficulty? Will this be harder than the current easy type in terms of enemy unit prowess?

And some things I'd like to point out:

Rad, Lavian and Alicia coming with jobs unlocked are OK, you can proposition them anyway, what I find slightly annoying are Agrias and Mustadio. I could use them with more unlocked jobs.

I'm probably just lazy but I do find grinding a little lame. Would it be possible to give them more unlocked jobs preferably all higher tier (summoner, geomancer) unlocked but still at level 1?

That way you only have to grind for abilities.

[philsov]

like... 25%.  

I've input most of the mechanical changes as desired.  At this point I'm going through the ENTD and changing all the enemies that had stuff like Weapon Guard and Move +3 into different reactions/movements.  

Once that's done I'll be shipping over a prelim patch to Seph and Raven so they can play through the game and give feedback on the evasion numbers, relative power of charge time abilities, and also flag up any specific enemies/battles that need to change under the new reduced movement/range paradigm -- immobile melee in the back of the battle is useless, as is a unit that's basically stranded.  

As they're messing with that, I'll be messing with the game script and injected some satire into the whole thing.  I've already broken down the events on an individual basis -- which imo is the hardest part short of actual thought into what all will be said.  I really don't want this to be lame.  It's just a matter of re-inserting script lines and making sure nothing is clipped or the speech bubbles hang or crap like that.  

At this point it'll probably be done around christmas time.  ho ho ho.

Oh and are you tweaking the difficulty? Will this be harder than the current easy type in terms of enemy unit prowess?

For the most part, no.  The equipment scaling and enemy setups wil be near identical, the only difficulty modifier will be the movement/range/evasion differences, which for all I know can make the system more abusable/easier by the player.  Though the Murond/Orbonne stretch WILL be harder (in an absolute sense) because I can now expect the player to have access to better equips and thus can gear/class out those buggers even more as well.  

Agrias and Mustadio. I could use them with more unlocked jobs.

Well for starters they will be able to do propositions in this patch, but past that they could possibly be level 1 geo and lancer, respectively?  Alicia and Lavian will be coming in quite similar, but meh.

I know you hate it but I kind of edited my post while you were replying. Sorry

I'm pretty sure I'm the biggest offender to that, it's kinda normal at this point.

Edit:  Regarding difficulty, it might actually be a little harder for the player, too, because auto potion got trimmed up and abandon/hamedo were also removed.

[iopyud]

That's pretty great. I'll have until Christmas to bother you with crap like... Omfg giev Ramza Sowrdskillzlelel

I know you hate it but I kind of edited my post while you were replying. Sorry.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Samurai already have the highest MA -and- PA multipliers in the game, and in previous versions had innate 2H.  I really don't think they need more.

You're saying you took that off?

Bawww.  Hopefully, I can still justify using a male Samurai.

Why else would you use a thief over a ninja?

I already use a Thief over a Ninja in 1.3, and if Ninja lost Two Swords innate, I see no reason not to just slap that onto my Thief and take my 100% shots and higher HP multiplier for the slightly lower PA.

Besides Throw, which is honestly better in ASM'd for obvious reasons.  But I think you get the idea.  Guess it depends how much better Throw is to determine whether a innate-less Ninja is still worth using over a Thief.

[philsov]

It's package deal.  As ninja lose innate two swords, thieves lose innate concentrate.  Removing one but not the other is folly :p

This is of course coupled with the change to daggers to be 100% anyways + Steal %'s increased slightly to compensate for the new evasion.

Looking at the mage tree, there isn't much "progression" -- they are all rather interchangeable, and chosen based on which primary + stats + equip option you'd like.  Once Samu and ninja enter the melee picture, they outclass all other melee most of the time, because of their innates -- true there are times 2H lancer trumps equip spear/AU samu and two sword thief trumps concentrate ninja, but all in all I'd like the fighter classes to be more akin to the casters in terms of superiority.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

It's package deal.  As ninja lose innate two swords, thieves lose innate concentrate.  Removing one but not the other is folly :p

Thank god.  Least you did that much, though I'm not sure if I prefer more innates or no innates yet.  I find the innates are cool ways to make each class truly unique, but too many can easily result in unintentional game-breaking-ness, I suppose.

This is of course coupled with the change to daggers to be 100% anyways + Steal %'s increased slightly to compensate for the new evasion.

Ic.

Looking at the mage tree, there isn't much "progression" -- they are all rather interchangeable, and chosen based on which primary + stats + equip option you'd like.  Once Samu and ninja enter the melee picture, they outclass all other melee most of the time, because of their innates -- true there are times 2H lancer trumps equip spear/AU samu and two sword thief trumps concentrate ninja, but all in all I'd like the fighter classes to be more akin to the casters in terms of superiority.

I figured as much.  It's worth playing around with and seeing how class superiority pans out.  I always felt Samurai having the most melee potential was okay since they have lower HP than Knights / Lancers (from what I've seen, at least) and the Speed of a Knight, meaning they were very "kill them quickly or die trying" every time I used one.  Lack of Br formula may make Katanas really worth it even without Two Hands innate, so we'll see.

Ninja and Thief were always rather interchangeable in the melee picture for me in 1.3, depending on whether I wanted Throw for damage, Martial Arts > dual Daggers / Sasuke Knives, Steal, etc.  My Lancer was my crutch for a majority of the game, as well.  While I probably should have stuck with UberSquire for Ramza, he did very well as a Geomancer for me as well.

Melee classes I never found really worth using on a mainstay basis were Squire / Knight / Archer.  I didn't use Monk often either, but that was mostly because I felt no need for it, not because I felt it inferior.

Though I'm also assuming you want to try and lower how much damage gets output per unit in order to make battles last a bit longer and be more interesting without throwing Defense UP,ridiculous growths, and uber equipment + Maintenance everywhere.  At which point this may work out okay.

[Dokurider]

Few things:

1. Berserk should be treated solely as a negative status. Time after time again, Berserk proves that losing control of your character is always bad, no matter what benefits are. Berserk is just like Vanilla Axes and Flails, it just doesn't work for FFT. So, Berserk-blocking equips should come back.

2. /braces self

Fists should no longer be two sword-able. They are way too cheap. Even with the removal of Innate Two Swords, Monks are way too cheap with Two Swords. They are like the Two Swordable Knights Swords of 1.3.

3. Monsters should have more immunities to statuses. Even with all the progress they've made, I think they are still a little too vunerable. The Dark Behemoth is a step in the right direction.

4. I'm a little worried about Longbows no longer being exclusive to Archers. Will Archers still be able to hold their own?

5. Is it really a wise idea to give Chemists % healing? If anything, Priests should have % healing.

[philsov]

1) Does the enemy use Berserk enough to wanting even bothering with it?

2) I... have no clue how to fix this.  You're quite right, though the difference becomes far more pronounced at 99 than, say, 50.  What I can say, however, is that flails are probably going to be in the runnings for the same level of OP-ness at 99 because of their new formula... which puts Ninja and Squire(!) in the runnings for deep dungeon melee as well.  Also fists have no w.ev value, which will make monk the squishiest melee of all them.

3) Agreed, I'll shotgun something up.

4) As archers are able to longbow it up and still slap on attack up or concentrate, I say yes.

5) %-based chemistry died when the ASM hack caused my game to crash.  Auto-potion is getting trimmed with the introduction of a new potion class and an offsetting of the amount healed, which also enables the potion not in the auto-potion group to actually heal for more than 150 as well.

Edit:  Actually, the "fix" would be to not give monks innate martial arts and boost the potency of punch art, but I think this would cripple them too much.  Dunno, I'll run some numbers.

[Dokurider]

1) Does the enemy use Berserk enough to wanting even bothering with it?

The giant walking cows, for one, and the giant evil squids for another.

What I can say, however, is that flails are probably going to be in the runnings for the same level of OP-ness at 99 because of their new formula...

...what devil-ry are you planning?

Edit: Actually, the "fix" would be to not give monks innate martial arts and boost the potency of punch art, but I think this would cripple them too much. Dunno, I'll run some numbers.

Remember, you don't need to buy fists nor do fists break.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Edit:  Actually, the "fix" would be to not give monks innate martial arts and boost the potency of punch art, but I think this would cripple them too much.  Dunno, I'll run some numbers.

No Innate Martial Arts.  Make Martial Arts cost 0000 JP.  Boost either Monk PA and/or Punch Art to compensate so that they're not quite Two Swords'ing, but about 50% between their current level and their Two Swords level when equipped with Martial Arts.

They'd still hit pretty hard and their abilities would be more potent, but no W-EV in a game where all EVs mean more and no hats / Equip Armor option without losing power should balance this.

I say 0000 JP Martial Arts so that the class isn't worthless upon unlocking, as it already feels (to me, at least) like it takes a good few ages to learn enough good Punch Art skills to have a truly usable set without Crystals to help.  This'd make it impossible for anything to Martial Arts with two fists.

[philsov]

...what devil-ry are you planning?

Front page, yo.  (Which needs to be updated, and will in a week or less...)

Axes/Flails get new formula of ((0 + (1..PA)) + PA) * WP.  

Bam, something with about the same level of PA scaling of fists.

Level 99 Ninja in max PA gear = 26 PA.  I forget what the planned WP on scorpion tail is at, but flails averaging out to 40 PA * WP?  Should crest over the 999 damage point with two swords.  Attack up Axes won't be too far off, but they're capped at 999 due to being a single attack. One way or another, squires are going to be seen in the deep dungeon imo

Which is kind of ironic because specials can't be squires :3

[FFMaster]

In a few battles, yes. Mostly the single unit battles. Abilities are much more important than melee though, since they have crowd control and status, which is much more important in the majority of battles. Squires lack everything except what seems to be a good melee axe. A lot of enemies in there have annoying reactions as well, like Hamedo and Counter, which would mean a dead Squire after a single attack.

Squires can be used in DD, its just that other classes have so many other benefits, like Mediators/Oracles/Cloud/Beowulf.

EDIT: I would like to see someone get close to the enemy units with Teleport 2, or like 10 move + Fly.

EDIT2: Forgot about the 100% Blade Grasp guy as well =p

[RavenOfRazgriz]

One of the Deep Dungeon battles should be a Squire with bandon, 100 Br, Elf Mantles, innate Defend status, innate Defense / Magic Defense UP, Teleport 2, ???, Attack UP, Martial Arts, Concentrate, and some ridiculous secondary equipped with two best Flails, forcibly equipped with Grand Helm, Maximillian, and Robe of Lords accessory (because its fricking cold down there!).

Then make Voldemort be forced to be the person to test the fight and only give him 5 of each Item.

Revenge for the hell that is 1.3... by a true UberSquire!



EDIT:  In seriousness, it would be kind of cool to see some bitching Squires over the course of the main game and an uber broken one or two in the Deep Dungeon, if only because people will see Squire, go "lol, bad", and then get wrecked before learning the awesomeness that is 100% accurate, high damage dual Flails.

Speaking of Squires, is it possible to insert an ability into their skillset that replicates the 'old' version of Cheer Up (Br boost), while allowing us to keep the Regen-adding one from 1.3?

It's not much, but it boosts Basic Skill's usability up a bit more.  Is it possible for Dash to cause both knockback and Cancel: Charging 25% each (in the way Masamune casts Haste or Regen instead of both)?  Dash with just 25% Cancel: Charging is decent but too situational to justify the skill over something that simply hits like a truck and kills the caster midcharge.  Knockback seems a lot better in this game, so that would probably do it.   Especially if we could knockback non-Zodiac bosses... not being able to do so doesn't make much sense, imo.  That, and I think all of us want to Throw Stone Algus off the side of Fort Zeakden into a snowy, pancake death.

[Archael]

One of the Deep Dungeon battles should be a Squire with bandon, 100 Br, Elf Mantles, innate Defend status, innate Defense / Magic Defense UP, Teleport 2, ???, Attack UP, Martial Arts, Concentrate, and some ridiculous secondary equipped with two best Flails, forcibly equipped with Grand Helm, Maximillian, and Robe of Lords accessory (because its fricking cold down there!).

I cast stop

fights over

[Dokurider]

So would I, except being a hero unit, he's immune to knockback.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

I cast stop

fights over

I thought the ??? made it obvious the Squire would have boss immunities.

Psh.  :p

[FFMaster]

Not much can be done about bosses and knockback. Immortal status makes them immune to knockback. Dash got changed to 25% cancel charging because Throw Stone already had knockback, and was much better because of range.

As for the UberSquire in DD, I could easily take him on, with 0 Items. He is much weaker than Queklain, due to lack of AoE. I can just spam Raise/Fairy to tank and use whatever for attack. You need to give him Ultima at least, but even then, he still might be too weak. I can just Mind/Magic Ruin him until I can tank him easily.

EDIT: Forgot about Stop. Other alternatives include Don't Act, Sleep, etc. Forgot about Immortal status' lack of immunities to the important status. Hell I could Poison him and stall for 10 rounds.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Not much can be done about bosses and knockback. Immortal status makes them immune to knockback. Dash got changed to 25% cancel charging because Throw Stone already had knockback, and was much better because of range.

As for the UberSquire in DD, I could easily take him on, with 0 Items. He is much weaker than Queklain, due to lack of AoE. I can just spam Raise/Fairy to tank and use whatever for attack. You need to give him Ultima at least, but even then, he still might be too weak. I can just Mind/Magic Ruin him until I can tank him easily.

EDIT: Forgot about Stop. Other alternatives include Don't Act, Sleep, etc. Forgot about Immortal status' lack of immunities to the important status. Hell I could Poison him and stall for 10 rounds.

You're taking that post way too seriously, FFM.

=p

[FFMaster]

I live in DD. You guys can't just trample over my fun =p

[RavenOfRazgriz]

I live in DD. You guys can't just trample over my fun =p

You live there?

So, tell us the question on everyone's mind.

Is it so cold in there that the one Lune Knight really needs to wear two Robes?