FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[reinoe]

A long post so I'm putting it in spoilers...

spoiler

Like Raven, I used to play a CCG.  For something to be "nerf-worthy" it has to be able to beat everything no matter what happens.  For me only Quickening Stall, OP Magic Guns, and Kagesougi's DA proc are the only things that fit into that category.  For person "X" there could be something else.  For person "Y" it could be yet another thing.

For example, Cursed Ring dies to RAISE 2, Consecrate, and Seal evil.  They're also hurt by potions, and if the person who built the team doesn't protect against fire, then the team is also weak against that elemnt.

Wiznaibus not strong enough?  Can we really be sure when there's only one team using it at this point?  Furthermore Circulus Terastris went 1win 2 losses against Gaignun's "Patch Me".  Ironically enough "Patch Me" focuses on abusing the "brokenness" of Attack UP+Hidden Knife and it still lost once.  Which is where I segue to Hidden Knife+Attack UP...

There are things that can be done to stop units that abuse Hidden Knife+ATTACK UP NINJAS as exemplified by the losses "Patch Me" suffers.  Granted, "Patch Me" usually wins the overall matches, but observing the rounds lost is very telling...    For something to be "broken" there should be no way to reliably mitigate it's power or it's weaknesses are not sufficient.  Is there a way to stop Hidden Knife+ATTACK UP ninjas?  Yes, ironically by hitting them in the exact same manner that they hit their opponents only at a range.  They will lose to Geomancy, unevadable summons, Lore spam, Wiznaibus, JUMPS, magic guns, or -ton abilities with concentrate.  Why?  Because in order to use Hidden Knife+Attack up a person must sacrifice HP.  Ninjas are already glass cannons and to maximize the potential to one-shot a unit they must sacrifice even more HP.  There are both magical and physical ways to stop Ninja's being abusive.

That's why I was in favor of lowering the power of Hidden Knife.  Even with Attack Up, if Hidden Knife's power is lowered you're getting diminished returns.  Wasn't the benefit is Hidden Knife always being able to hit the opponent?  If so then there's no need for it to have a high Attack Power, especially considering that Ninjas with Hidden Knife get access to a second weapon.

But compare Hidden Knife's problem to Quickening Stall, or more specifically Wiz' (S1).  Unless you're building a team specifically to beat it, I don't think I've ever actually seen WIZ team actually lose.  Similarly Magic Guns.  Unless you're building a team specifically designed to beat magic guns then your team is at a distinct disadvantage.  Furthermore a magic gun team will almost always flat out beat a team of spellcasters.  That's just not fair.  That's why I am convinced that Quickening does indeed need to die and Magic Guns need to have their power lowered somewhat.  Some things I'm "iffy on though".

spoiler: re poison

I'm not sure what to do about poison to be honest.  For all the potential it has to wreck havok I can only think of two instances where poison beyond death really mattered.  The Damned can you remind us of some matches where poison was especially problematic?

[TrueLight]

spoiler: re poison

I'm not sure what to do about poison to be honest.  For all the potential it has to wreck havok I can only think of two instances where poison beyond death really mattered.  The Damned can you remind us of some matches where poison was especially problematic?

Just a small sample, but check round 2 of This Video (Round 2 starts around the 8 minute mark). Pretty much, my Chemist wasted turns reviving my Time Mage and she died the following turn due to Poison.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Poison forced a res loop against Item.

Poison was given Death Persist for the expressed purpose of forcing res loops against Item.

Problem is?

[The Damned]

(For the record, I've disliked Magic Guns since vanilla or rather "before it was cool". It helped that I was taking a "break" from FFH when the whole "Grand Cross Spellgun" metagame apparently rampant or else I probably would have beem bitching about it even more heavily then.)

Gaignun already made an extremely apt comparison. It's not that Spellguns are so broken that they're basically unbeatable like Ivan Ooze from the Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers game. (Forgive the video's hyperbole at some points.) It's just that they are like SSF4: AE Yun and so obviously at the Toppest of the Top Tier out the gate that they require no thought in terms of set-up to attain an easy, almost guaranteed victory (barring AI stupidity, which is really the only thing "mudding" a lot of the disputable things). When it doubt, dive-kick it (read: shoot it) out.

Considering with that, if spellguns are SSF4: AE Yun, then all mages are basically Dhalsim from that same game. An 8-2 match-up that only becomes doable with the absolute right plays from the get-go (read: Projectile Guard or White Robe & Setiemson and/or Magic Defend UP) and even then you're still fighting a losing battle based on luck.

To add insult to injury, at least Yun & Dhalsim differed play-style-wise. Literally the only advantage that attack mages have over spellguns is that they can possibly hit more than one unit and aren't Direct. That it's. Current spellguns basically obviate attack mages or, hell, every mage in general that isn't using White Magick or, to a lesser degree, Summon Magick (or Lore) for revival (or to guarantee hitting everyone on the field). How is that possibly fair?

Even then, though, it's not like I want to get rid of spell-guns, which is where I could see the metagame accusation actually having weight...if I wanted to get rid of more than only two--Quickening & Phoenix Blade--of those things outright. Even then, I want to get rid of those things outright not because I simply don't like them, but because I feel like they don't anything good to the metagame at all:

spoiler: Things That Actually Need to Die

1. Quickening: This literally has no counter. The only thing that negatively affects Speed is Slow Dance, which loses to Quickening hard between having a third of the hit rate and being not instant.

2. Phoenix Blade: The only counter is Weapon Break...which is blocked by Maintenance and which hardly everyone carries anyway. Even break teams tend to not use Weapon Break that much, only using Shield Break less IIRC. Meanwhile, literally nothing else keeps a duo of Phoenix Blades users from just stalling the game for 10+ minutes, sticking the AI in the same idiotic loop because it's blind to the fact that it shouldn't be focusing on them (if other units are still alive); all the AI sees is "attack the Unit with the lowest health!" over and over again, without realizing something is going on. The only thing keeping Phoenix Blade from being even more busted is that the user always gets back up in Critical, meaning they focus on healing rather than getting an unearned action ad infinitum. Yay. How exciting and interesting.

Everything else is less a matter of "this is a such a problem that needs to be removed from the metagame" and "this is a problem that over simplifies the metagame when it doesn't need to":

spoiler: Things That Are Detrimental to the Metagame, but Can Just Change, Not Die

1. Spell Guns: Talked about above. It seems pretty obvious that it needs to change over to Nether Gun formula, even before Pilgrimage made them even dumber than usual since you can only do so much to "nerf" it until it's just not worth using. Only forcing them to be Two-Handed isn't going to do very much; it will do is make it so that having M-EV isn't one more advantage that spell gunners have over all mages. Them losing Shields sure as hell isn't going to stop Pilgrimage Spellgunners.


2. Cursed Ring: This isn't a problem for the most part. The only aspect that is a problem is its guaranteed revival and that's mostly because of Quickening--my, what a big surprise. The "should it lose Sp +1?" proposal was just something I was wondering aloud; I am actually a fine with it keeping Null: Holy, though admittedly that's partly because Priest's Holy is kinda stupid right now even without Golden Hairpin's overpowered aspect.

If anything, it's other things related to Cursed Ring that are more problematic to the metagame (besides Quickening), namely Consecration and Seal Evil being both too expensive and, in the case of Consecration, inconsequential. Adding Dead to something guaranteed to get back up is hardly appealing, especially when it's not even guaranteed to hit, and the only reason I'd think someone should ever use would be a) if they're using Blood Sword or Bloody Strings & not using Snipe or b) have a Zombie-team & have Steal Accessory. Otherwise, Consecration blows right now. Hard. Like Tobias Funke.

Going further with that, both of the specific anti-Zombie techniques being so bad just serve to make the already powerful Raise 2 even more "needed", which is also bad for the metagame, especially since White Magick is only to get stronger.


3. Kagesougi: As much as it makes me roll my eyes, I don't ultimately want Kagesougi dead. It just want it to not be so "herp derp" brain that you can stick on every unit with Two Swords (or higher-end Longbow) and do 250+ instant damage, likely, guaranteed for 5 MP with an almost 100% chance of status. Especially when some of those statuses are Don't Act & Poison.

It's severely under-costed for the ease of use and success and if anything it oversimplifies Ninjutsu. None of the other techniques even really matter anymore unless you're going out of your way to apply Innocent like my "Those Who Don't Fear Gods" team or Otabo's "Innocent Until Proven Guilty" team. Kagesougi having Poison makes the otherwise usable Shuriken redundant even though Ahong's team shows that Shuriken is/should be usable (and even though). It's just why sacrifice HP & evasion for max PA set-ups to get the most out of Shuriken when you can just slap Hidden Knife on, get a speed boost & Concentrate and Berserker Barrage about with Kagesougi, slaughtering everything without thought or effort?


4. Hawk's Eye: A lesser problem than the above, but it's also obviously under-costed for the fact that it does 150+ damage very easily at 100% (unless you, again, have Projectile Guard since it's used with Bows 99% of the time) that also adds both Oil and Poison...for only 8 MP. What. It just does too much. Way too much. It would be completely fine with just adding Oil, even on teams that don't use elements doubled by Oil since 100% damage from a distance without needing to use Concentrate is 100% damage. It's also made problematic since, again, Quickening, which increases its damage. Additionally, Clothes & Headgear are getting MP boosts and Ribbons/Headbands are likely to get more availability, it at the very least needs an MP boost.


5. Hidden Knife: I've always seen this as a problem from the beginning, but not entirely just for the Always: Transparent aspect. I've always been weary of it because of it had Always: Transparent and boosted Speed. Even with Blind actually affecting Transparent (and Concentrate) now, it's still the premiere Ninjato because of innate Two Swords, especially with Kagesougi around, which isn't going anywhere (and shouldn't). This in addition to us trying to finally make Ninjato beyond Hidden Knife and the +1 PA Ninjato (and, to a degree, the good, bugged Spell Edge's 50% Oil) worth using. It's just...why ever use anything else, when, again given a brain-dead option of guaranteed hits alongside more hits? So in my view, Hidden Knife either needs to lose Speed +1 or Always: Transparent since making it drop in power isn't going to do jackshit, just like with proposals to make Spellguns drop in power (again).


6. Songs & Dances: Not that this was listed, but since we're still talking about Wiznaibus and stuff, the reason I've been persistently scratching my head about Battle Song & Magic Song being buffed from 50% to 66% is because they were already good and the most used Songs. Pretty much no other song besides the two of them get used outside of Angel Song...and much of that is fuel Battle Song & Magic Song, which people can't really do anything about since a) Polka Polka & Disillusion are now so much lower than the Songs and b) Magic Ruin & Power Ruin are on a class both has horribly low MP & cares more about Quickening than anything else. They're pretty brain-dead to use as well while Last Song & Cheer Song, especially in light of Quickening, got over-nerfed hit-rate-wise for some reason and Life Song is iffy.

All the Songs still fair better than any Dance that isn't Nameless Dance or Witch Hunt and even the latter's use is...arguably between Move-MP Up and ever increased use of Absorb MP (which would otherwise be great). Polka Polka & Disillusion's hit rates are otherwise fine (I guess), but just can't compete with the unnecessarily, greatly increased hit rates of the opposing Songs; even Polka Polka & Disillusion went back to 50%, they'd still be pretty screwed with Songs at 66%. Last Dance like Last Song was over-nerfed when it never did anything of importance before, unlike Last Song. Slow Dance's hit rate is probably correct, but it's not worth using when Quickening exists and beats it effortlessly. And Wiznaibus just sucks giant, STD-riddled porn-star cock and, on top of that, it sucks said cock poorly.

So, yeah, that's kind of why I've been harping on the fact that Songs & Dance need a change in general, even if it was CT5Holy and others that brought up Wiznaibus needing a change first.

I don't intend to drop talking (read: kvetching) about any of these and you know I really could go on, but for now I won't since I think my point is understood, rambling though it tends to be.


TL;DR: Yes, every metagame is going to have top tier strategies. However, it is detrimental to a metagame if some things are so top tier that you basically have to pick them or directly counter them or you will almost always lose rather than merely having to try to account for them. Quickening, Spellguns and, to a (much) lesser degree, Phoenix Blade are that dominating. Granted, Phoenix Blade is only really "dominating" in the sense that like Quickening, there's no real way to fix it/make the AI not stupid against it, and that it Quickening just makes even dumber; that said, you could probably do something with an Always: Undead sword....

Everything else that's been mentioned as a problems are just things that further simplify and already simplified metagame and that, if "fixed", would allow for more diversity, which can only be a good thing unless the only changes you're making is nerfing everything, which isn't the case.


P.S. I would have to look through videos, reinoe, since I don't remember any specific match off the top of my head. I'm sure it's happened though, but it would take a while to find. I imagine a lot of the ones I would be able to find would be akin to TrueLight's, though, in the sense that even with it having the expressed purpose of forcing res loops against Phoenix Down, it's only really mages that are affected.

[CT5Holy]

That's not a problem. That's exactly what the Poison buff was intended to do. And someone dying to Poison doesn't happen nearly often enough for it to be an actual issue.

Gaignun: being nitpicky, but your analogy would be more accurate if you said Fei Long or Cammy - Yun got nerfed a while back IIRC.
That said, I am all for buffing weaker abilities and items.

I'm still not convinced on Quickening and Phoenix Blade just yet. I admit, I like pushing the power envelope. But I still think a strong offense can punch through them.
If I really had to say goodbye to one of them, it would be Quickening though. It is simply always useful, basically. Phoenix Blade is interesting in the team development process, and I'm sure I'm not the only one to find a lot of enjoyment in making the team itself. Besides, Always: Slow is a rather significant handicap. Less so for a defensive team that wants the game to go long in the first place, but such a team is more vulnerable in the early-middle stages of the game because a unit is getting less turns - less actions to help the team get to the late game.

[Dokurider]

"There's" "nothing" "wrong" "with" "Poison". "It's" "doing" "exactly" "what" "it's" "supposed" "to" "do", "countering" "Phoenix" "D""o""w""n""."

""

Giving Quickening a CT (4 or 5 CT sounds fine to me) would sharply curb it's abuse. I'd rather try that before killing it dead.

[reinoe]

spoiler: re: Magic Guns

I misspoke when I went on about lowering their power.  I believe you proposed, and the community overall accepted, the notion that Magic Guns should be made "nether guns" so that they can't be abused by Pilgrimage.  And they also won't kick Spellcasters in the nutz

spoiler: re: Hidden Knife

If it has to change then I'd rather see it lose the +1speed.  Transparent is such an interesting mechanic.  Although I'm sure a power reduction would have a bigger benefit than the item losing it's speed bonus but I don't think this is something we (TheDamned and myself) will agree on.

spoiler: re: Dances are actually overpowered right now and need a nerf

I have nothing to say about Dancer abilities to be honest.  I just put it here so I can say "made you look"

spoiler: Cursed Ring

Now that I think about it, Consecrate and Seal Evil should hit at 100%.  I remember when my MachineGunners went against undead units and Seal Evil missed twice.  TWICE!  That's two time.  One more time than once.  But it shouldn't have missed at all   Oh I'm just being silly now...but not about Consecration and Seal Evil.  Those really do need to hit at 100%

[Gaignun]

I misspoke when I went on about lowering their power.  I believe you proposed, and the community overall accepted, the notion that Magic Guns should be made "nether guns" so that they can't be abused by Pilgrimage.  And they also won't kick Spellcasters in the nutz

Aye.  The nice thing about the nether formula is that spellcasters can more comfortably increase Fury than decrease Faith to reduce damage.  At the same time, increasing Fury exposes the spellcasters to physical damage.  It's a tradeoff that has not since been considered.  This will also keep the spellguns effective against 40-40 derp teams without elemental or oil protection.

Gaignun: being nitpicky, but your analogy would be more accurate if you said Fei Long or Cammy - Yun got nerfed a while back IIRC.

Yeah, you're right.  The Yun I spoke of was before the 2012 patch.  Turns out they're going to nerf Cammy, too, though!

spoiler: That webzone that plays movies

[The Damned]

(Oh, so the v2013 patch is actually finally going to be a thing? I thought it was just something people were longing for. Hunh.

*waits for Blanka to still destroy poor, poor T. Hawk for free and Honda to do the same to Juri*

Sigh.)

Yeah. If having to choose between Phoenix Blade and Quickening when it comes to what to kill and only being allowed to kill one, then, yes, I'd definitely go with killing Quickening. It literally adds nothing to the game strategy-wise and makes even otherwise fine things like Cursed Ring absurdly overpowered. As dumb as dual Phoenix Blade can be, it would at least be less dumb without Phoenix Blade and, at the very least, would mean that people would actually try to use Cheer Song again.

So I'd be "glad" with Phoenix Blade sticking around for one more version if Quickening dies the horrible death it's deserved from the get-go. I must confess seeing how Phoenix Blade would be without 100% Speed Boosting might be interesting, even if think it would still ultimately have to go.

"There's" "nothing" "wrong" "with" "Poison". "It's" "doing" "exactly" "what" "it's" "supposed" "to" "do", "countering" "Phoenix" "D""o""w""n""."

Except that Phoenix Down was never really a problem. (Why did people think it was? I forget and I say this as someone who overall loathes Item/Chemist.)

Again, it's only the classes that were already squishy that have been really affected (read: screwed over) by Poison lasting after death, which kinda defeats the point since they're currently so easy to put back down even at full health. Similarly, in trying to screw over Phoenix Down, which at least 100% accurate, Poison after death has currently screwed over Wish more, since current Wish blows since it's literally just a worse version of Revive.

Admittedly, if Spellguns (and Kagesougi & Hawk's Eye) become less ridiculous, then I'll probably be fine with Poison lasting after death between Cure becoming instant and not needing Raise 2 to maybe not just die again, Poisoned or no. This even though White Magick is already strong and is only going to be getting stronger going into 1.39 regardless of what else happens.

Also, I can abuse quotations marks even worse if you want. Don't tempt me please.

Giving Quickening a CT (4 or 5 CT sounds fine to me) would sharply curb it's abuse. I'd rather try that before killing it dead.

Yeah...those aren't fine. The reason that Malroth proposed such a lengthy CT of 8 was because that would theoretically maybe stop the AI from ever letting it resolve at 13 Speed.

What you're proposing means that that the AI would only stop (maybe) letting it resolve at 25 or 20 Speed respectively. Wiz's team usually destroys people before it even gets near 20, much less 25, so letting it have CT 4 or 5 isn't going to do very much outside of try to necessitate trying to carry Throw Stone or Sinkhole (or Bizen Boat) on every team. The same goes for ever other team that uses Quickening. They usually pretty much destroy people around 16 or 17 Speed.

This even before you realize that even Malroth's proposal doesn't take Short Charge into account, which runs into the same problem of your proposal, while you're proposal is shredded even more by Quickening becoming CT 2 or CT 3. Neither of you are also taking Cursed Ring or Phoenix Blade into account, which would still be stupidly overpowered with any form of Quickening, even if you made it like CT 10+ (in Phoenix Blade's case).

Quickening just needs to die. I honestly don't see why people are (still) making excuses for it. If you want to play around with Speed, then why aren't people petitioning FFMaster to make Cheer Song (or Last Song) actually worth using or making Speed Save (or Critical Quick) cost less rather than focusing on something so brain-dead?

Phoenix Blade I can maybe understand some people wanting to still play around with, but there is absolutely nothing redeeming about Quickening metagame-wise and there never has been.

[iamBQB]

From what I remember as a lurker, it wasn't that Phoenix Down was a problem, but that Poison was a rather worthless status effect and it was thought that making it persist after death and act as a counter to PD would make it a more viable option to use.

[The Damned]

(Ah, yes. That sounds about correct. Thank you.)

Still, I'm not sure it's worth it. Then again, I can't think of a way to improve Poison other hand, which is part of the problem.

Hmmm....

[Barren]

The only think the only way to salvage Tsumazuku would be have it cancel charging/performing. I know there's refute, throw stone and sinkhole. But I think that will give Ninjitsu a little more variety in what it can do. Plus no the AI hasn't used Tsumazuku at all. So how about giving Tsumazuku cancel charging/performing instead of cancel haste?

[The Damned]

(At the very least, Refute will be losing Cancel Charging & Performing even if for some reason FFMaster doesn't split it up whenever 1.39 comes out.)

That said, I was under the impression that Tsumazuku was outright dying regardless between Ninja likely getting Mushin (no Shin)--the renamed version of Thief's Heretic--and that anti-Masamune explosive tag move Gaignun suggested that I keep forgetting the name of.

I guess, provided that Quickening dies, giving a Cancel Charging & Performing move to Thief might not be too bad. Then again, Thief is already the fastest class and mages currently are getting screwed horribly enough as it is, so....

[Reks]

and that anti-Masamune explosive tag move Gaignun suggested that I keep forgetting the name of

Kibaku Fuda

[CT5Holy]

Thoughts on Poison/Regen damaging/healing HP and MP? I think it'd be pretty neat, and we know it's possible courtesy of (mild spoilers that i'm not bothering to put in a spoiler tag cause i'm silly) Jot5.

[Dokurider]

I'm tempted to give into endorsing this change because of all the whining surrounding Poison's Death Persistence as of late, but then again, it's just that, whining. I might endorse it if Regen was given MP Regen as well, making both statuses more generally useful instead of just punishing revival loops. However, there is a snag about just handing over MP Regen to Regen: Masamune. If Masamune gains MP recovery in addition to it's already potent properties, that could possibly tip Masamune back into being the dominant support skill again. So either this change shouldn't happen or it happens at the cost of Masamune getting completely altered.

Speaking of Draw Out, I'm going to post this again because it got glossed over when I posted it:

Heaven's Cloud (the Draw Out). Right now, it is the weakest draw out. It's distinguishing feature has a low proc rate, and even when it does proc, isn't that strong to begin with, and interferes with absorbing strategies. I propose that either it and Asura trade the friendly traits or Heaven's Cloud drops 20% Slow entirely.

[Gaignun]

I'm partial to creating MP regen/poison as a set of new status effects, entirely.  Then have White Magick Regen (and not Masamune) add both HP and MP regen.  Not sure how straightforward this is, though.  Could we just copy Regen's code over an unused status effect (such as blood suck), then change the active stat from HP to MP?  If the status effect table is evenly partitioned, it could be possible.

Also, we can add a bag that imparts MP regen so mages don't need to equip Move-MP UP all the time.

[TrueLight]

It's going to suck be that unit who is charging a spell and at the end of their turn, they're going to realize that the spell isn't going to happen due to not having enough MP =/

Ar least this might get people to use more Regen(the spell) & Wiznaibus.

[Dokurider]

There is also an additional problem with MP Regen. One of the ways Iron Boots is balanced is that without Move MP Up, they have to find other ways of keeping their MP up. Implementing MP Regen can make Iron Boots users even harder to take out.

[The Damned]

(...Or you could just make Iron Boots [& Genji Armor] immune to the new MP Regen status, which in my controlling methods, I'll just refer to as "Refresh" from now on.

There. Problem solved before it even becomes a problem, though it was a valid concern otherwise.)

Weird to realize I've been away from ARENA for over a month already. There's things I still owe even before bothering Dokurider for a memory card again and now I'm behind on a huge backlog of videos again. Ugh.

That said, I "felt" I had to pipe on this particular discussion, especially since it would taking notes from Journey of the Five.

First and foremost, I concur with Gaignun that if this chance has to happen at all (and I think it should wait until 1.40), then "we" should definitely look at trying to implement the MP Regen ("Refresh") and MP Poison (uh, "Addle"? "Pain"? "Meltdown"? "Amnesia"? "Fog"?) as separate status from regular HP Regen and HP Poison respectively. There's certainly space for it, after all:

spoiler: Open Status Spaces

1. The space above Crystal is still unused (except, probably, by Kagesougi technically).
2. Blood Suck is never going to be used in ARENA.
3. Chicken is no longer being used.
4. Treasure is no longer being used.
5. Wall is still unused and that's what Pride's hack for MP Regen originally overrode.
6. Dark/Evil Looking still isn't being used either even though that still has graphic problems that need to be hammered out.
7. Confusion is no longer being used and is unlikely to ever return.

In addition to those empty spaces, it would be a good experiment to see if you can actually link the CT counts of separate statuses together. I know that formerdeathcorps has talked about it among his own patch ideas, but I've yet to see it confirmed by anyone. Then again, I don't know much about coding--I R SMART--and such still, so maybe it's already known to be possible.

Regardless, I do think that at least considering it in-depth beyond "hey, this might help Regen the spell" is something that needs to be looked into.

Now, this is where I'd probably do something even more long-winded in the way of analysis, but I have shit to do, including make some Jot5 videos public, and basically have to be up for more than 24 hours. So, I'll pass at this moment, and just "briefly" list what bringing these two new statuses in would actually affect:

spoiler: 1. Things that cause HP Regen:

a. Regen (the spell--sees very little use; this would benefit the most from MP Regen even though White Magick as a whole is already getting a large buff going into 1.39; would probably need to be increased to 100 JP).

b. Regenerator (this is already usable and doesn't need MP Regen since otherwise it would obviate Absorb Used MP and MP Restore).

c. P Bag (usable, but could maybe use the boost; people aren't still haven't decided on whether this bag will be the healing one though; I guess an MP Regen-only bag could maybe exist as well as Gaignun suggested).

d. Light Robe (could also maybe use the boost despite being usable, though it would have to become the Robe with the least MP most likely).

e. Life Song (is a weaker Song, but giving it MP Regen steps on Angel Song's toes, so...). 

f. Masamune (already fucking overpowered, so it doesn't need shit else).

g. Nurse (could maybe not be utterly obnoxious with MP Regen, especially with Paladin's pitiful MP, but it would have to lose Defending and probably heal slightly less).

h. Mad Science (is getting changed into something on Druid that will probably be overpowered since it has AoE 1, so no. Please).

spoiler: 2. Things that cause HP Poison:

a. Poison Bow (already seeing a nerf while Hawk's Eye fate seems unclear, but MP Poison on top of Poison & damage would be too much).

b. Hawk's Eye (already does way too much and it needs to lose regular Poison, so no go).

c. Wiznaibus (even with MP Poison on top of regular Poison, it would still be trash while now also stepping on Witch Hunt's space; if anything, Witch Hunt should probably get a chance to MP Poison on top of MP damage so it doesn't auto-lose to Move-MP UP, Absorb Used MP and this new MP Regen; Wiznaibus needs to become Dirty Dancing still [/self-promotion]).

d. Shuriken (this does sort of need a buff, but that can be easily attained by...).

e. Kagesougi (this losing Poison [and Don't Act] and costing more MP while sees slightly less MP usage and more of a chance to HP Poison; neither need MP Poison).

f. Kiyomori (I'm...ambivalent about adding MP Poison to this, mostly because most teams still can't/don't use it effectively while at the same time the AI is pretty dumb about Blind and Poison already screws over mages more; so...yeah. I don't think it really needs it ultimately, but I'd oppose it less than any of the above getting it).

g. Poison (the spell--desperately needs something to make it actually usable, especially since the AI will actively use it; there's just no rewards for doing so presently; would probably need to be increased to 100 JP).

h. Scorpion Tail (almost forgot about this; like Poison Bow, this does a lot of damage already on top of Poison; unlike Poison Bow, it's also actually already quite used, so no, it doesn't need MP Poison).

i. Bio (is apparently dying right out, which no one except me seems to care about. It also can do a crap ton of damage at almost instant speeds, so...no).

j. Zigolis Swamp (well, more the Poison Marsh tiles here than the entire map itself if we're being technical; I think this is already an unusable map, unfortunately, so it doesn't really matter, but if we're being thorough, then, yeah...it at least has to be counted here).

spoiler: 3. Things that cancel HP Regen (that are not Poison):

a. Dispel Magic (is already getting an AoE buff, but Refresh would undeniably be a positive effect; still Spell Absorb doesn't exactly see much use as it is...).

b. Water (basically linked to the above, except it does Water elemental damage; not like it could differ on the Refresh front one way or the other, though).

c. Leviathan (see above).

d. Spellbreaker (could potentially "use" the buff, especially since it's the only non-Faith-based option to dispel Regen currently that isn't just adding Poison. It is already, however, rather strong and way too cheap [MP-wise], so I'm not sure. It depends on what Thief's skill set and MP look like whenever FFMaster gets done with 1.39).

e. Refute (cancels too much, which is why it's getting broken up; the positive status canceling version should probably get Cancel: Refresh as well).

f. Kibaku Fuda (given this is suggested as a direct counter to Masamune's bullshit, it obviously cancels Regen; would it canceling Refresh also fit?).

spoiler: 4. Things that cancel (or are immune to) Poison (that are not Regen):

a. Antidote (Item doesn't need to get any stronger, so this can likely forego curing MP Poison).

b. Esuna (you would think this would be a "yes", but between trying to buff Regen and White Magick actually being really strong already, this is a "no"; if White Magick users want to cure MP Poison, then they need to actually have Regen, boo hoo).

c. Stigma Magic (this, on the other hand, would bother me less if it cured MP Poison despite being both instant and in the same skill set as Chakra; I'm not whole-heartedly supporting it, but I do still think that Esuna and Stigma Magic need to differ more).

d. Heal (despite Basic Skill getting a moderate round of buffs again, I actually think it would be good for Heal to get rid of MP Poison).

e. Refute (as with Refresh, the broken-up version of this should probably cancel MP Poison on its negative status side).

f. Platina Helmet (I'm...ambivalent here, partly because Platina Helmet already blocks three negative statuses).

g. Whichever 1.39 Headband Blocks Poison (will probably get protected from MP Poison as well).

h. Diamond Armor (like Platina Helmet, I'm ambivalent here, except it's even worse since Diamond Armor already blocks four negative statuses).

i. 108 Gems (the only Accessory to block Poison, but like Diamond Armor, it already does too much and is well-used, so...no).

Yes, this could be longer, especially since there's other things that need to be addressed to talk about still, though those can be saved for later. I'll end on this, though: Provided they're implemented, something other than White Magic(k)'s Regen needs to cause Refresh/MP Regen as well, otherwise White Magic becomes even more powerful by virtue of having a monopoly.

I'm tempted to give into endorsing this change because of all the whining surrounding Poison's Death Persistence as of late, but then again, it's just that, whining.

That seems uncalled for, though it's possible I missed actual whining in the month I've been "gone".