FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Dance/Song don't need Silence to counter them.  It has nothing to do with lack of blocking it but that's a different issue.  The issue is that each single Song or Dance doesn't affect the flow of battle heavily, they're a DOT effect that already require very specific setups to work and can be easily shut down through other methods such as Sinkhole.  With magic, Silence is a powerful counter but a single magic casting can heavily affect the flow of battle and most mages (now) can do some decent damage with Attack to mix things up while waiting for Silence to be removed.  Most of the Song/Dance builds that are actually good don't have good Attack damage and require long-term strategies that are easily shut down through other methods.  Adding Silence to that list is stupid. 

Dance isn't particularly weak either, you just need to be patient...

Quickening is still overrated.  Thief could use a bit more base MP, though.  Speaking of base MP, Lancers need Robes back.  They got them in Vanilla and had them removed in 1.3 for AI random equip reasons, but in Arena not having them places them at a major disadvantage as a base class v Paladin and Samurai.  There are many MP-utilizing skillsets that would work well on a Lancer, but your only MP boosting option is the Cross Helm while the other armored classes also get Robes... and yet, Lancer still has "armored Class" HP as if it were able to equip Robes, leaving it fucked.  The Genji Armor was also changed because it was essentially a weaker Light Robe and overlapped... but Lancers can't use the Light Robe either because they get no Robes.  They already have enough issues with Lances not being a populous or varied weapon type (like Katana) and not being able to access other primary weapons (like Paladin can), the least they can get is their goddamn Robes back.

[formerdeathcorps]

The Invincible Masamune
Yeah this thing is way too powerful,  when 1 action from 1 class finds its way onto 1 out of every 3 units you know you have a problem.   I'd recommend ditching the 100% accuracy and instead have 2 separate 50+ma% chances for each status similar to how the Byblos demon's skill.

Do all of you realize why masamune is back to 100% infliction?  Back when it was randomly adding haste or regen, no one used masamune because it had the same problem as the old Nameless Song; it was so hard to actually add haste that the AI would spam masamune over literally everything else for the entire match.

Instead of reducing Time Mage speed to 8, can we increase it to 10?  I believe Time Mage would actually be stronger this way because:
1) It reduces the need for a SPD investment to become the leadout haste/slow user and makes SC'd haste2/slow2 much easier to attain.
2) It increases the lethality of the 2S staff spammer.
3) It opens up speed dependent setups involving hawk's eye
4) It makes spell interruption off sinkhole and suppression sniping off comet more likely.
5) Mages could use a fast option.

While we're on the subject, can we raise Ninjitsu back to PA * 10 since it now takes evasion?  I don't want it being so overnerfed that people run 40 faith teams without fear.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Don't see how you can call it over-nerfed.  Right now it's equal to Tier-1 Black Magic with 0 CT, lower MP costs, and access to the Flash Hat to grant both Auto-Innocent for a solid power boost and more MP for more casts of Ninjitsu, whereas equivalent Black Magic relies on the Faith Rod which takes up your weapon slot, meaning you don't get to choose a powerful handheld to supplement your Black Magic the way you can with Ninjitsu.

Being PA based also makes it more compatible with one of the stronger forms of MP regeneration (Chakra, and in turn, access to that entire skillset of worthwhile skills) and being instant makes it strong for Blitzkrieg tactics that magic can't really do easily.  It's a shadow of its former self but its by no means weak, a testament to how strong ye olde Ninjitsu was.

I would be in favor of doing something with Ninjitsu like was done with Black Magic though and give each one its own properties though:

Meiton @ PA*9, Reflectable, Evadable, 11 MP, NO Counter Magic, NO Counter Flood, DARK
Fuuton @ PA*10, Reflectable, Evadable, YES Counter Magic, Counter Flood, 16 MP, WIND
Suiton @ PA*8, Non-Reflectable, Non-Evadable, YES Counter Magic, YES Counter Flood, 6 MP, WATER

Something like this would work.  Meiton is the current Ninjitsu minus some counterablity, Fuuton is "old" Ninjitsu with Evasion at a higher MP cost, and Suiton is a cheaper, lower-damage option that bypasses evasion and Reflect the way old Ninjitsu did.

It'd be a small buff that adds options to the Ninjitsu set and gives people reasons to double up beyond "oh they might absorb my primary one".

[Malroth]

I actualy like being able to run 40 faith units without Black costume and small mantle being mandatory.

[formerdeathcorps]

I cannot agree.  There should exist no safe number in this game; no one should have the mental security in this game that having 40 fury or faith will guarantee safety vs. enemy units.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Malroth, that was never mandatory even back when Ninjitsu ran off a 10 Y with no Evasion or Reflect, a MP cost o 6 each, and you could get more powerful damage stacks, Innocent, had much strong Element Absorption/Negation combo options than you do now, and most offensive alternatives to Ninjitsu were a lot weaker than they are currently.  I'm also fairly certain Ninjitsu had 6 range back then, too.

Stop being derp.

[Reks]

Quickening is still overrated.  Thief could use a bit more base MP, though.  Speaking of base MP, Lancers need Robes back.  They got them in Vanilla and had them removed in 1.3 for AI random equip reasons, but in Arena not having them places them at a major disadvantage as a base class v Paladin and Samurai.  There are many MP-utilizing skillsets that would work well on a Lancer, but your only MP boosting option is the Cross Helm while the other armored classes also get Robes... and yet, Lancer still has "armored Class" HP as if it were able to equip Robes, leaving it fucked.  The Genji Armor was also changed because it was essentially a weaker Light Robe and overlapped... but Lancers can't use the Light Robe either because they get no Robes.  They already have enough issues with Lances not being a populous or varied weapon type (like Katana) and not being able to access other primary weapons (like Paladin can), the least they can get is their goddamn Robes back.

I agree with this.

[The Damned]

(Ugh. I should have done this yesterday, but forgot. Now I have to do it today or else it will nag me until Saturday, only for me to have forgotten about it today.

I'll proofread this next weekend since I've spent more than enough time typing it up. Apologies, though I've typo'd horribly enough here that you can probably grasp what I'm rambling about unless I omitted a negative. Even then....)


First, though, I agree with the proposed changes to the elemental Ninjutsu and to Lancers getting back Robes, even though both Ninja & Lancer are already among the stronger classes. That said, Lancer getting back Robes, specifically Black Robe, makes it pretty much necessary that Spear, Mythril Spear & Partisan take that WP drop I was previously ambivalent become the same elements as their Breaths. Yes, I'm aware they could have been powered up by Kaiser Plate, but if Robes are back, then that means they get to potentially equip other shields instead of having to give up (more) evasion otherwise to 108 Gems. Spears & Jump already hurt enough as it is without more options to make them horrifically damaging, but at the same time there's really no good reason that Lancers should be kept from having Robes again if the other Heavy Armor classes have it.

That said, I'm going to spend the rest of this time talking about how I should be doing some else if I don't want to fail classes about weapons or, rather, weapons that we haven't talked about at present, like Knightswords, after realizing something from the latest series of videos. It helps that there aren't very many weapons we haven't talked about yet, so it will also help me get something down so that it isn't nagging me. (Then, like hydra, two more things will step into its place.)

Regardless, this will also serve as a "recap" I guess, though we are going of my crappy memory here, so I'm probably forgetting some things and I'm definitely not hitting everything since people obviously have differing opinions than I do whether they've posted them or not:

spoiler: Up Your Arsenal

I always wanted to use that stupid phrase; now I just have to use it in a smutty context and I cross it off my "bucket list":

spoiler: Knives

1. Knives: Well, Air Knife obviously needs to lose Two Hands so as not to be murder machine from which there is almost no escape, especially since it benefits from Oil. Other than that, Knives seem more or less fine now, since Two Hands have benefited the other three Knives without making them absolute monsters. Throwing Knife might need a bit more  power though since so it's been rather...lackluster at best. Repel Knife, at the very least, needs its description fixed since it is not All or Nothing Haste & Don't Act.

(Personal) Consensus: Air Knife loses Two Hands. Throwing Knife maybe gets +1 WP. Mage Masher and Repel Knife's descriptions in the Master Guide get fixed.

spoiler: Ninja Swords

2. Ninja Swords: I agree with Raven that trying to fix these are is best left to ARENA 140 most likely since there's "a lot" wrong with them. Rather, it's fairer to say, there's very little incentive to use anything that isn't Hidden Knife, Ninja Knife (only due to Kagesougi), (now, by accident) Short Edge and maybe Sasuke Knife.

Consensus: Largely skipping this, but if some changes "should" happen here, then Short Edge gets to keep its 50% Oil (for now) and that gets fixed in the Master Guide. Additionally, Sasuke Knife should probably get +2 Speed; it might "need" to lose a bit of WP though. Not really sure.

spoiler: Swords

3. Swords: As formerdeathcorps said, not was really wrong with these to begin with. For the most part, the ones that went used were just kind of...bland. That said, I like most of the changes save Phoenix Blade, which I'm still...unsure about. People are pretty much using everything else save Ice Brand & Platinum Sword.

Consensus: These are fine for now...except maybe Phoenix Blade that needs more time to "marinate". Well, that and fix Shieldrender please.

spoiler: Knight Swords

4. Knight Swords: Okay, so we come to the first category things that I really want to talk about. After watching Otabo's latest videos, I've come to realize that even with the power ups, Save the Queen and Ragnarok haven't been used in 138 so far at all. The premiere Knight Swords are Chaos Blade, now that both Southern Cross and its W-EV exist, and of course Excalibur; even Defender got at least some use in the original version of DomieV's team. It's certainly still usable due to the immunity to Don't Act  and all that W-EV though, even with the boost to Main Gauche.

Save the Queen and Ragnarok though...there's no really any reason to use them if you think about it. Chaos Blade, Masamune (the Katana) & the finally increasingly in-use Dispel Magic strip it of its initial enchantments. Paladin, the only class that use either of them innately, now have Iron Will to use and abuse. The perfumes are better them now and yet it would obviously be too much to make the initial aspect of either of them into Always.

So...I'm at a loss at how to improve Save the Queen or Ragnarok. Off the top of my head, possible changes--note I'm not calling them improvements--would to make Save the Queen also have Initial: Shell in addition to Initial: Protect. Then Ragnarok would become a Dark version of Excalibur.

Of course, those aren't necessarily improvements. Save the Queen becomes extremely obnoxious while at the same time still being relatively ineffectual due to the aforementioned Iron Will and dispelling abilities. Ragnarok is somewhat better, but it already exists for Paladins since they have the ability wield Koutetsu Knife, which is better than it due to being able to Two Handed.

(Also, I'm not convinced that any of these really needed power increases, particularly Excalibur.)

Consensus: Save the Queen and Ragnarok need some type of improvement. Chaos Blade needs the "Reriase" in the Master Guide fixed still.

spoiler: Katana

5. Katana: Despite being the person who "fixed" these, as helped by Raven & FFMaster & co., I...actually think these are fine. Surprisingly I managed to not fuck something up for once. Go me.

Consensus: These are actually fine.

spoiler: Axes

6. Axes: Despite being such a small category, these are problematic. The same thing goes for the other two really small categories, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

I'm increasingly convinced that Battle Axe's proc is rather overpowered since pretty much the only way to survive it is be at 100% health and even that's iffy. Battle Axe isn't Platina Dagger, so it can hit by itself without procs for rather respectable damage--100+--for its relatively low PA even without Two Hands. The proc hitting for a full 85% of Max HP that can't be evaded just seems...excessive.

On the flip side, Slasher is thusly nigh worthless because of the above since Battle Axe ends up being great just for both offensive and defensive builds. After all, given how much damage Decapitate can do and how no one can dodge it, if you're going to outright attack with an Axe, then you might as well play the odds with Battle Axe since it's way stronger at its apex than Slasher ever will be.

Giant Axe, the appropriate middle man, is actually fine and is finally seeing some use now.

Consensus: Battle Axe's proc gets renamed "Maim" and ends up "only" doing 50% of TarMaxHP, which makes it potentially survivable. It should maybe also drop by one WP and/or to 20% proc chance, but that seems a tad...excessive.

Regardles, Slasher needs some type of improvement like Knight Swords, but like with Knight Swords, I currently can't think of anything.

spoiler: Rods

7. Rods: Much like Swords & Katana, these are fine. (Even if I'll never be able to do my Ninja idea now that they're MA * WP.... Sadface.)

Consensus: These are fine.

spoiler: Staves

8. Staves: We've had a rather...robust back and forth about this already. For the most part, everyone seems to think Gold Staff is fine and everyone else seems to think Mace of Zeus is fine. On the flip side, everyone agrees that White Staff, Healing Staff and Rainbow Staff need some type of buff. Wizard Staff, on the other hand, seems to be the most contenious with regards to how it should be changed, at least when it comes to Raven, Dokurider and I's proposals all being rather different. So I'll leave that one alone for now.

Consensus: Gold Staff is fine; Mace of Zeus is maybe fine. Rainbow Staff should probably Block: Oil at the least; it also needs to lose its description that it's still all elements in the Master Guide. White Staff should almost assuredly become Holy element, though I don't think anyone has commented on that one way or the other. Healing Staff seems to be agreed that it should add +1 Sp and boost both Holy & Dark now. There might have been some other things, such as it getting a name change, in which I'd say either Chaos Staff or Cosmos Staff are fine (if those don't become the new names for Wizard Staff & White Staff respectively).

As for Wizard Staff, I'll leave that alone for now since not everyone agrees with my version of it becoming a Dark version of the now Holy-element White Staff.

spoiler: Flails

9. Flails: These are fine surprisingly. I only say "surprisingly" because I'm still not that big on self-strengthening weapons, but they seem to work on ARENA presently, Mace of Zeus potentially an exception.

Consensus: These are fine (though I personally wouldn't mind some possible changes to Scorpion Tail, especially if Wizard Staff becomes not +2 MA like I want it to).

spoiler: Guns

10. Guns: The "regular" guns still seem fine, if lackluster, for the most part. At present, Stone Gun is one of the few things that makes Salty Rage worth attempting to use. The spellguns, though, are still...kind of overpowered it seems. I'm not sure if it's just because of Oil though, admittedly, or just the fact that they're still unable to be dodged but now benefit from Pilgrimage as well despite the damage nerf.

Consensus: Spellguns may have to be nerfed again, but that might just be me.

spoiler: Crossbows

11. Crossbows: Well, aside from needing to fix Bow Gun, I...guess these are fine? No one's really used any of these still aside from the aforementioned currently broken Bow Gun and the already strong Hunting Bow. When it comes to the other four though...I think someone's tried to use Gastrafatis and I know I've tried to use Poison Bow, but other than that....

That said, Gastrafitis and Night Killer, probably fine.

Silencer & Poison Bow though....

Well, Poison Bow just seems a bit redundant with Hawk's Eye around, which is why I imagine that it has more WP despite Poison lasting for longer now. With regards to the increased WP, it seems like that would be better on Silencer considering how frequent Block: Silence is, but meh.

Consensus: Silencer & Poison Bow probably need changes and Bow Gun's Armor Break doesn't work presently. The other three crossbows are probably fine though.

spoiler: Longbows

12. Longbows: The changes to all the bows except for Silver Bow have made them a lot more worth using. As such, everything but Silver Bow has been used in 138 already. As for fixing Silver Bow, I'm not really sure how. Perhaps give +1 MA as a start? Maybe even +2 MA?

Even that seems...lacking though.

Consensus: Everything is fine except for Silver Bow, which still isn't really worth that using seeing how both it and Windslash Bow have the same power when powered up. This when Windslash Bow's proc is unavoidable and not reliant on Faith or MA. Having to compete with Long Bow having more range, Mythril Bow & Ultimus Bow having more power & Ice Bow & Lightning Bow having more utility make it the easily the weakest.

I'm not sure how to fix it though.

spoiler: Harps

13. Bloody Strings Harps: Full stop, Bloody Strings is overpowered still. The other two Harps aren't completely trash, but compared to Bloody Strings current level of power, there is very little incentive to use anything else due to the way that drain attacks work at present.

Consensus: Please drop Bloody Strings to 8 WP.Also, please rename Ramia Harp into Lamia Harp.

spoiler: Books

14. Books: These are fine for the most part I suppose, even if Madlemgen might need to differ from Fairy Harp if Harps become part of Equip Magegear. Similarly, Monster Dict/Bestiary could maybe stand to have a higher level of proc due to how weak Magic Ruin is compared to the other three procs, but otherwise, everything seems "fine".

Consensus: More or less fine.

spoiler: Spears

15. Spears: As stated above with regards to Robes, Spears & Mythril Spear & Partisan need to take WP nerfs if they're becoming the same element as their breaths. Other than that, these are more or less fine I guess.

Holy Lance is already getting fixed proc-wise, so no comment on that.

Consensus: Spear, Mythril Spear & Partisan all become 9 or 10 WP and Fire, Ice and Lightning elemental respectively.

spoiler: Sticks

16. Sticks: I'm convinced that these are for the most part fine, especially now that I realize how Innocent status works with the variable Faith stat "fix". I do agree with the statement that Iron Fan is rather...bland, but that can also wait until 140.

Consensus: All but Iron Fan can are more or less fine while Iron Fan can wait to be "fixed" until 140.

spoiler: Bags

17. Bags: These are all usable now, so, uh, good job and such.

Consensus: These are fine. However, please note that all classes can use Bags somewhere (clearer) in the Master Guide. Thank you.

spoiler: Cloths

18. Cloths: Basically the same problem as Save the Queen & Ragnarok plague these,  right down to having to compete with the new Swords. That said, unlike Save the Queen & Ragnarok, these can be used with Shields, so I'm less worried about them ultimately, especially since I've used them myself and they might become available via Equip Polearm.

So...I'm not sure if these should change, even though dispelling their special aspects makes all three carbon copies of each other.

Consensus: Fine? Even if not, they can probably wait until 140.

I'll refrain from replying to anyone until Saturday...no, make that Sunday since I might accidentally eviscerate them in bitterness.


Refuting EDIT: Oh, damn it. I ended up forgetting something anyway:

Refute should probably lose its ability to cancel Charging & Performing. This only occurred to me when it was revealed that, for some reason, it will cancel the Performing status of its allies at times. Perhaps it's because their evasion is reduced to 100%, but so far I've yet to see it cancel a Charging ally; I wouldn't really be surprised if it did, though.

Regardless, even if that wasn't the case, Talk Skill already has the most skills that tell mages to screw off anyway between Blackmail, Insult, Mimic Daravon and arguably Solution. So, yeah... Refute should probably lose that.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

I'll comment on other shit later, but point out now that the loss of HP from a Black Robe (which averages 50 or 60 HP, as its the Robe that gives the lowest amount of HP) is a lot more crippling than using a Kaiser Plate, as Kaiser Plate has moderate P-EVD and M-EVD.  Unless you need MP or are using a particular Shield effect Kaiser Plate + Any Armor is outright better than Any Shield + Black Robe because it gives you more P-EVD, more M-EVD, and more HP for the same end effect.  You can't use Two Hands on any of the Element Spears, remember.

[The Damned]

(Last comment until Saturday, I "swear".)

True, true. Also, I suppose if Bow Gun and Shieldrender get fixed, then both things are equally susceptible to destruction with Black Robe being more so considering Bow Gun's range, even if that's susceptible to Projectile Guard. I did remember that the non-Holy-Breath lances weren't usable with Two Hands, though.

*shrug*

Those three lances are going to have to take a WP hit if they become elemental anyway.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

I don't see why.  Weapons like the Platinum Sword can be used with Two Hands and have 12 WP.  All this is would be PA * 1.25 (rounddown) * WP with Attack UP as your biggest booster... with neither being able to boost damage from the Jump command.  I mean, it has that MA*8 proc, but... err... that's literally 48 damage after Element Boost.

Gonna tell me you really wanna lower the WP on a weapon not compatible with Two Hands because it has a 50% chance to proc 48 damage?  Weapons like Ice Brand have 14 WP and actually proc good skills like Ice 2 of classes with an actual MA stat, and those can be Elemental Boosted.  Iga and Koga Knife combo are a self-boosting 11 WP pair together and compatible with Two Swords. Asura Knife is a self-boosting 10 WP weapon on a class with innate Two Hands.  The "boring" Iron Fan and Dragon Whisker both just outright give you 14 WP, which is only slightly weaker than a 12 WP weapon with Element Boost usually.

So.  Um.

Yeah.

Gonna say you're really really wrong there.

-----

Meh, I'm needing a procrastination for a few mins, let's roll.

spoiler: Knives

Throwing Knife - This could easily be 12 WP to match Katar and Orichalcum with range being its perk compared to stats and Two Hands. 

Air Knife - I'd say this is better dropped to 11 WP, because Katar, Orichalcum, and Throwing Knife are meant to be your primary "high WP" Knives anyway unless the wool's been polled over my eyes on that one.  It is fairly strong for a Two Hands compatible weapon, though.

spoiler: Ninjato

I'mma just post a list of weapons instead of replying to you directly here.

(Note: All of these would be compatible with both Two Swords and Two Hands.)

Hidden Knife - 8 WP. 0% W-EVD, No Element, Always: Transparent, +1 SPD
Ninja Knife - 11 WP, 5% W-EVD, No Element, +1 PA
Short Edge - 10 WP, 5% W-EVD, No Element, 50% Add: Oil
Ninja Edge - 9 WP. 15% W-EVD, No Element, 50% Add: Don't Move
Spell Edge - 11 WP, 5% W-EVD, No Element, 50% Cast: Dark Sword (P-EVable) or 100% Cast: Spell Absorb
Sasuke Knife - 11 WP, 10% W-EVD, Fire Element, Boost: Earth (Insert Naruto Joke Here) (Make Icon Red)
Koga Knife - 11 WP, 10% W-EVD, Earth Element, Boost: Fire
Orochimaru Fang - 12 WP, 0% W-EVD, No Element, 50% Add: Blind

Keeps them doing more or less what they're already doing, just better and a bit more varied about it.  Also removes the Iga Knife / Spiked Futon overlap.

spoiler: Swords

Phoenix Blade - Gain Immune: Critical.

Parry Edge - Boost to 25% W-EVD.  20% W-EVD each is shit and not worth using Two Swords for any unit that could use Attack UP and Escutcheon II, and Two Swords Parry Edge isn't much stronger (if at all) than a 14 WP Sword with Attack UP supplemented by Escutcheon II.  That's why I originally proposed this to have 25% W-EVD but everyone flipped a shit over it, and now it's kinda garbage.

spoiler: Knight Swords

Defender - Becomes 16 WP.
Save the Queen and Ragnarok - become Always: Protect and Always: Shell and 15 WP.

Since status is permanent now, Defender needs to be stronger to be worth using, so WP swaps around.

spoiler: Axes

Battle Axe - W-EVD reduced to 20%.  Decap Proc damage reduced to 50% Max HP. This really is stupidly strong lol.

Slasher - W-EVD reduced to 25%.  Gain compatibility with Two Swords for optimum hilarity.

This is the part where I get bored and decide to go to sleep.  Maybe I'll finish it tomorrow.

[Barren]

lol dual wielding axes

but yea Raven, I can't see the spoiler for the knightswords because nothing pops up when I click on it.

One comment I do want to make about the Orochimaru Fang weapon: You really want Abandon to be THAT much more useful by adding blind?

[reinoe]

lol dual wielding axes

but yea Raven, I can't see the spoiler for the knightswords because nothing pops up when I click on it.

One comment I do want to make about the Orochimaru Fang weapon: You really want Abandon to be THAT much more useful by adding blind?

That's because there's an apostrophe in "Knight's".  If you quote Raven's post you'll be able to see the text inside the spoiler.

[Eternal]

Fixed the spoiler tag.

[Eternal]

Also. Why is Yell 8 MP when Masamune does the same thing for free, with AoE, and Regen?

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Because it's half the JP cost and has more range?

It could lose that 3 CT, though.  There's no reason for anything other than Ultima to have a CT.

[Dokurider]

Air Knife: 11 WP was exactly the number I was thinking of proposing. In any case, Air Knife should remain a Two Handed weapon as many elemental two handable weapons still remain out there, only with better damage formulas.

Everything else Raven proposed, I agree with, although I will say that I thought the reason Battle Axe had that powerful of a proc was to simulate Dead proc. Why not just give it a Dead proc was beyond me.

Now for a proposal of my own. With testing of my thief team, I initially found that Heresy is next to near worthless, as they refuse to use it. But, as I spoke with fdc about that matter, it does have a use, for ninjas who want a free innocent. But it actually not really that free, as it requires a specific, and in my opinion, rather dubious, strategy that involves Ninjas and 9 Speed Lores, to make it work reliably. But even then, it's still worthless on it's native class, being too fast to Innocent themselves in time until late into the match when speed synch has kicked into full.

So here are some proposals to fix this:

1 (FDC's idea): Swap it with Ninja's Houkouton, so that 9 SP Lore strategy can be utilized by other Jobs.
2: Change it to something better
3: Make it add something else, so that they use it right when the battle starts. Preferable Regen, because the AI can't stop slathering themselves with that, maybe they'll even overlook Innocent.

[The Damned]

("Back" sooner than I should be since...things, though I really shouldn't have time on Friday at least. Not that anything is urgent.)

Yes, I can agree with Yell needing to be instant if it's going to be useful or, at least, if it's going to be able to remain competitive against Masamune and the buffs to Time Mage & Time Magic(k).

Speaking of CT, I still think that Ultima could stand to be 6 CT rather than 7 since its damage isn't nearly as bonkers as it was when it was getting used and abused before its nerf. Then again, I don't think it's necessarily hurting it hat much as 7 CT when it has AoE, so meh.

***

As I just noticed in the latest series of videos, Air Knife isn't adding Sleep as it's supposed to. If Air Knife is getting changed though, then that raises another question or two: Should it be fixed to properly add Sleep? Should it add anything at all?

*Elemental spear stuff*

Shrug. I guess we could keep them at the WP that they have now even though Oil exists and Lancer will finally be able to use Grand Cross now and see what happens. Might as well, really. Just think they might need to ultimately be lowered even if perhaps not by that much.

Also, I'm not sure if Ice Brand is such a good example considering....

I forget though. What were the Breaths before when they were first added and basically doing like 50% HP damage? PA-based?

*suggestions for Knives, Ninjato, Swords, Knight Swords and Axes*

I'll just respond to this category by category, though for the most part, I'm fine with these changes:


1. Knives: Throwing Knife getting 12 WP is fine. I actually wanted to give it more WP, but you already know I err on the side of caution. Air Knife only dropping to 11 WP yet still being able to used with Two Hands is...not something I'd prefer, but I guess like Spears we can try it out and just drop Two Hands later if it's still so strong. I can't imagine it would drop the power too much to prevent Dokurider's current set-up from OHKO'ing most things no wearing armor (or Thief Hats), but I could be wrong. That tends to happen.


2. Ninjato: I like most of these changes, especially if Hidden Knife is probably staying as it is otherwise. One can only want for Sasuke Knife to be more effective than it's possibly referenced namesake considering how hard Fire attacks blow in that franchise, but more Fire-elemental weapons is always nice and old Iga Knife was indeed always redundant. When it comes to new Spell Edge, personally I'd go with Dark Sword since that's PA-based. Either that or make it proc Spell Absorb and give +1 MA since Ninja MA is...average at best otherwise; Dark Sword is probably the better choice.

As for Orochi(maru) Fang, I sort of agree with Barren about Abandon even though the weapon itself has no W-EV. Maybe only 33% Blind?


3. Swords: I'm not sure why Phoenix Blade already needs another buff, but I can at least understand the general sentiment I suppose. Are we sure that immune to Critical doesn't screw with the AI though, especially when it comes to being resurrected at what would normally be Critical? Regardless, I can agree about Parry Edge getting boosted, though I can't remember if I was one of the people who "flipped his shit" about it initially. Shrug.


4. Knight Swords: Eh, I guess. Giving both of those Always Barriers seems potentially rather obnoxious, especially since Paladin already has the most HP and a bunch of good stuff (like Lancer). Of course, I think pretty much everything should be usable and Save the Queen & Ragnarok aren't currently, so if this is what it takes, so be it; that Defender gets a buff is just a perk.


5. Axes: I agree with both these changes.

Air Knife: 11 WP was exactly the number I was thinking of proposing. In any case, Air Knife should remain a Two Handed weapon as many elemental two handable weapons still remain out there, only with better damage formulas.

Perhaps, but I wouldn't say that (PA+SP)/2*WP formula is exactly terrible, at least when it comes to Knives for Thieves since they naturally have 10 and automatically have access to one of only two ways to repeatedly raise one's Speed stat. So, as with your current Air Knife set-up, they only have to really worry about boosting PA, which Two Hands already takes care of. That or alternately use a lot of Speed gear and whore the cheaper Accumulate.

Everything else Raven proposed, I agree with, although I will say that I thought the reason Battle Axe had that powerful of a proc was to simulate Dead proc. Why not just give it a Dead proc was beyond me.

I thought that Battle Axe was the way it was merely because FFMaster borrowed it wholesale--nothing wrong with that--from 1.3. where that design (arguably) worked and since Axes were basically not worth using at all before that. So less "pseudo-Add: Dead" and more "it works (even if quite overpowered)".

Adding direct Dead is probably even worse then the current Decap though, since that's at least potentially survivable (even if it often isn't) without needing to have one of about half a dozen items to guarantee survival if the proc goes. Of course, it's also potentially worse than Decap in the "hmmm...this weapon sucks now" way since at least half a dozen items block Dead. Still, I suppose that's maybe more "fair" than Ancient Sword, so who knows.

*Heretic stuff*

So here are some proposals to fix this:

1 (FDC's idea): Swap it with Ninja's Houkouton, so that 9 SP Lore strategy can be utilized by other Jobs.
2: Change it to something better.
3: Make it add something else, so that they use it right when the battle starts. Preferable Regen, because the AI can't stop slathering themselves with that, maybe they'll even overlook Innocent.

I'm not sure about how I feel about 1, partly because I'm iffy about Thief's getting potentially decent AoE, especially since I suspect that Houkouton is still getting some change versus Spin Fist, with its Speed. Also iffy because I'm not sure Ninja needs more free power-ups even though, yes, it can currently use Heretic the best--only?--of any class.

The second option isn't really a valid option, in the sense that "duh". The third option is...meh. Poison currently sucks as it is with all the Regen flying around and the AI doesn't really use Regen unless it's already injured. So, yeah, it would probably use it more than it does now, but it still wouldn't use it right off the bat, if that's what you want.

Similarly, if we're talking about Heretic needing a change, then what of Solution (& Praise)?

[CT5Holy]

Ultima is at 5 CT. So it definitely shouldn't be at 6.

If those spears were to gain elements, don't think their WP needs to be lowered. They can't even be two-handed, and you want to hurt their damage even more? Even with Strengthen: Element, max damage setup (off top of my head) of: [Spear]/Kaiser Plate/Barbuta/Carabini Mail/Bracer and Attack UP gives... 264. So even if it weren't a max damage setup, the damage would still be fairly reasonable. Drop the WP, and they become a lot less desirable. Might only be worth using with Oil at that point (ok obviously not 100% true, but goodness the damage would be a lot worse with the lowered WP). Jump damage would also go down with the lower WP.

Actually, if you lower their WP, then they'd be like Holy Lance, only it's not 2Hable and on more easily blocked elements, and Holy Lance isn't really used in the first place. Definitely no to lowering their WP.

You do bring up a good point about Preach and Solution, though, and I would like to see Preach, Solution, and Persuade all get an accuracy buff. I think the low hit-rate shies people away from using them. Especially notable is in the case with Persuade, since Mimic Daravon does a similar thing, only with much more benefits, and at only a 5% accuracy penalty. How does Preach and Solution up to MA+60%, and Persuade up to MA+55% sound?

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Re: Abandon / Orochimaru Fang- No one cared about Blind Knife, which had a 50% Blind Proc, 15% EVD, and was innately usable on the shield-bearing Squire class as well as Ninja, as well as being more widely usable in general.  This is a 0 W-EVD option only really available to Ninjas and Thieves that'd primarily see use because it has 12 WP.  Not to mention you've got Night Killer whipping out 50% Blind from range on multiple classes that bear shields innately.  (Namely Squire and Archer.)  0 W-EVD and Fang's availability don't make it a particularly good Abandon weapon, it would just be a high-damage option that procs Blind, which is useful on its own, but is designed in a way that actually discourages Abandonspam.

Heretic and Houkouton should be switched and properly renamed.  Heretic is an Iron Will-class status buff where its only purpose is to be directly useful to its base class or other setups trying to do things similarly to what its base class tries to do.  Thieves can easily make use of a skill like Houkouton since it gives decent weapon-independent damage as area control which Ninjas don't really need, and Ninjas can obviously make use of Heretic in their base class, as can most people who sub Ninjitsu.  The best answer though is to probably to switch Heretic over to Ninja then just toss Houkouton for something else because it's just a derpy Spin Fist.

Preach / Solution are more along the Yin-Yang and White/Time Magic style of buffs so there's nothing to change on them, they're just not easy to use.  They (and Persuade) should have their hit rates buffed as CT5Holy said, though.