FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion

[philsov]

You're saying keep all smart targetting and reduce the size of the larger summons?

[Sephirot24]

No, I'm saying keep smart targeting for Draw out. Remove all smart targeting from Summons except the healing/good status ones, and the huge AOE ones, but reduce those to normal big AOE.

EDIT: that'd be taking out smart targeting from Shiva, Ifrit, Ramuh, Sylph, Lich, Salamander and Cyclops (though you can leave Cyclops and Salamander if you want). Reduce Bahamut's and Leviathan's AOE to Shiva/Ifrit AOE.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Summons need Smart Targeting.  It doesn't feel right else.

Reduce all Summon AoEs by 1 Panel, add a bit more Charge Time maybe?

Draw Out without Smart Targeting is fine, imo.  Unlike Summons, they don't have a flavor precedent besides FFT itself (that I know of, at least), so I see no reason they can't hit anything.

[Sephirot24]

Well, you're right about Summons not feeling right without smart targeting. Why would Shiva attack you or your own party if you're the one who is summoning? I was offering this instead of just removing smart targeting from both.

Reducing Summons AOE (except Fairy) could be worthy, to keep their smart targeting. The only thing you're gonna achieve giving them more CT is getting your summoners killed mid-charge.

Non-smart Draw out may see practically no use, since most melee units are gonna be cramped up now.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Reducing Summons AOE (except Fairy) could be worthy, to keep their smart targeting. The only thing you're gonna achieve giving them more CT is getting your summoners killed mid-charge.

Thus, Summoners become more risky, need to be held farther back (thus reducing the power of their AoE since they'll have a harder time reaching), and the opponent has a chance to try and either get in and off the Summoner or get the fuck out of the AoE before they die.

Non-smart Draw out may see practically no use, since most melee units are gonna be cramped up now.

I actually think a lot of the Draw Out moves need AoE changes.  The skillset atm seems so bland.

I was thinking.

Elemental Draw Outs (Asura, Kotetsu) keep basic AoE, along with Masamune and Bizen Boat.

Next tier up (Murasame, Heaven's Cloud, maybe one other I'm forgetting) becomes 3 in each cardinal direction, no diagonal, similar to the old Triple Attack, except more panels in each direction and potentially hitting behind the user.

Kikuichimoji goes 5 Panels in 1 direction, as it does now.  I would say 6, but movement range reductions means that might be OP.

Then something cool with Chirijiraden.  Though my idea well for something cool with it is dry atm, meaning the best thing I can forward is basic AoE +1 and extra height tolerance (which I think is what it is already, anyway...).

If Philsov can go implement something like that (I'm not seeing why he couldn't, really), I think it'd be pretty cool, and justify Draw Out losing Smart Targeting because it has more flexible ranges.

[Dokurider]

Seeing that Br modding is coming back, maybe O.G. Scream should return?

[philsov]

fyi:  summons hit everyone in FFTA.  

Reducing Summons AOE (except Fairy) could be worthy, to keep their smart targeting.

So, weaker than black magic but smart targetting and possibly costing more MP?

old Triple Attack

Might just work

Seeing that Br modding is coming back, maybe O.G. Scream should return?

I wish, but +Sp is just way too good.

[Dokurider]

Replace +Sp with Haste, then?

[philsov]

Scream's old formula is: +Y Br, +X PA, MA, and Sp.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

fyi:  summons hit everyone in FFTA.

Except, FFTA is evil.

Might just work

Hm.  If it works, want to dick around with Summon Magic AoE some too?

I felt those two skills should have had a lot of moves with varying AoE.  Their current forms are both rather bland.

[iopyud]

Summons need Smart Targeting.  It doesn't feel right else.

Reduce all Summon AoEs by 1 Panel, add a bit more Charge Time maybe?

Draw Out without Smart Targeting is fine, imo.  Unlike Summons, they don't have a flavor precedent besides FFT itself (that I know of, at least), so I see no reason they can't hit anything.

I second this. How about reducing HT as well? It's fine as long as they can walk away right? For Bahamut (boasts massive AoE), reduce his damage and give him like... 1 HT or something?

EDIT:

What is O.G. Scream?
How about just giving it Reraise or something?

Oh and are you still accepting suggestions for the script?

Scene: Orbonne after Ramza kicked everyone's asses and Wiggy's on the floor bleeding.

Wiegraf: Go on without me (or something like this)
Izlude: Wiegraf! Are you OK?!
Wiegraf: You stupid fucking cunt, do I look OK? I hope your father kills you.

[philsov]

Except, FFTA is evil.

Oh, indeed, its just that there really is no precedent towards summons, in either direction -- if we really wanted precedent summons would be hit all enemies regardless of placement -- it wouldn't be a simple AoE effect.  

If it works, want to dick around with Summon Magic AoE some too?

It works with draw out because the options for a linear attack or a 3-directional attack are forced to originate from the caster -- effective for frontliners. Summon Magic doesn't really have the same luxury since, conceptually, it's a ranged skillset.  On top of that, if they grab the back row caster motiff, this then means that any summon WILL hit a friendly target on its way to the enemy.  Summon's staying at ranged +'s, for better or worse.  Though, I don't really like the idea of 1 AoE summons -- starts cramping into Black Magic's territory.

you still accepting suggestions for the script?

Less vulgarity for the sake of it, but the I hope your father kills you can make its way in there.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

It works with draw out because the options for a linear attack or a 3-directional attack are forced to originate from the caster -- effective for frontliners. Summon Magic doesn't really have the same luxury since, conceptually, it's a ranged skillset.  On top of that, if they grab the back row caster motiff, this then means that any summon WILL hit a friendly target on its way to the enemy.  Summon's staying at ranged +'s, for better or worse.  Though, I don't really like the idea of 1 AoE summons -- starts cramping into Black Magic's territory.

Maybe a combination of both + ranged AoE Summons and originate-from-caster Summons, where one is ranged with lower power and higher CT and the other forces the caster to get in close, but is faster and causes a bit more damage?

That seems like it could work, since we could at least dick around with the AoEs of the from-caster Summons.

[Archael]

• [/size]n Summons and Draw Out Smart Targeting:
  
  I see in this situation a great opportunity to apply logic and logicsisms to the context of the debate between what should be smart targeting and what should not. Summoned creatures are supposed to be friendly to the caster who summons them. Just like Ifrit knows not to hit it's friends, Moogle knows not to heal it's enemies. Draw Out, on the other hand, are just unleashed waves of energy, and the game makes no effort to personalize them as conscious entities in the game world. Coupled with the fact that Draw Outs are instant, have no MP costs, and ignore faith, keeping them without smart targeting really adds to their personality of "this skill is very powerful, but use with caution". Draw Outs with smart targeting not only detract from the character of the skills, but also present a very real balance problem.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

• [/size]n Summons and Draw Out Smart Targeting:
  
  I see in this situation a great opportunity to apply logic and logicsisms to the context of the debate between what should be smart targeting and what should not. Summoned creatures are supposed to be friendly to the caster who summons them. Just like Ifrit knows not to hit it's friends, Moogle knows not to heal it's enemies. Draw Out, on the other hand, are just unleashed waves of energy, and the game makes no effort to personalize them as conscious entities in the game world. Coupled with the fact that Draw Outs are instant, have no MP costs, and ignore faith, keeping them without smart targeting really adds to their personality of "this skill is very powerful, but use with caution". Draw Outs with smart targeting not only detract from the character of the skills, but also present a very real balance problem.

I'm pretty sure that summarized what everyone else save maybe one person (and FFTA, that evil son of a bitch) said.

Hence why I think we're looking into funky AoE, hit-everybody Draw Outs and smart targeting Summons that will hopefully also have at least a couple funky AoEs.

[philsov]

imilarly, if one is so astute as to look through both their monocle and saucer, the same character of ignorant assumptions can be applied to summon magic as are the great draw outs of yore.  A summoned creature is only as smart as its caster.  If the caster commands "kill everything on this spot and those around it", the creature shall do so.  If the caster commands "kill only the bad guys, like this one and that one", the creature shall do so.  Summons with smart targetting not only assume a verbose and well-meaning caster, but also present severe balance issues.

See?  I can do it too.

Anyways, I think I'd solved the conundrum, somewhat.

Draw Out:  
Almost all draw outs affect everybody.
Asura = MA * 8, 2 range, 3 directions, 2 vert tol; chance to trigger Dispel Magic effect.
Koutetsu = MA * 8, 5 range linear, 2 vert tol; chance to silence.
Bizen Boat = MA * 10 MP damage, 2 AoE, 2 vert tol, 3 directions
Murasame = MA * 10 Healng, 2 AoE, 2 vert tol
HC = MA * 10, 2 AoE, 2 vert tol, chance to slow.
Kiyomori = Adds either Protect OR shell, 2 AoE, 2 vert tol
Muramasa = MA * 12, 2 range, 2 vert tol, 3 directions; no status.
Kiku = MA * 12, 5 range, 2 vert tol, no status.
Masamune = adds either Haste OR regen, 2 AoE, 2 vert tol
Chiri = MA * 15 damage, 2 AoE, 2 vert tol; no status -- cannot harm allies

Summon Magic:
Most summon magics are smart.
shiva: 3 range, 3 directions.  smart
ramuh: 5 range linear.  smart
ifrit: 2 AoE.  dumb, caster immune.

Odin: 3 range, 3 directions.  smart
Leviathan: 5 range linear.  smart
Salamander: 2 AoE.  dumb, caster immune.
titan: 2 AoE, smart.  Increased MP cost

Lich: 2 AoE.  dumb, caster immune.
Bahamut:  ????
cyclops: 2 AoE.  smart.  Increased MP cost

Silf: 2 AoE, smart.  
Fairy: 2 AoE, smart.
Golem: :p
carbunkle: 2 AoE, smart.
Moogle: 2 AoE, smart.

[Archael]

See? I can do it too.

o rly? I wasn't aware that someone else could do that too! learn something new every day I guess

Summons with smart targetting not only assume a verbose and well-meaning caster, but also present severe balance issues.

wtf?

summons with smart targeting aren't a balance problem, they are kept smart targeting to keep them useful

summon magic has charge time, an MP cost, and is faith reliant

draw out is alot stronger, and is imba with smart targeting, that's why I made it dumb

but looking at the changes you made you seem to agree that Summon = Smart and Draw Out = dumb is for the best

[philsov]

With the move/range reduction, bunching up will be more common -- which makes draw out even more of a liability as well.  Even if it's faith reliant, has a charge time (which means a lot less here), and an MP cost, the AoE summon magic can crank out needs to be fixed.  Thus, summon AoE is getting shifted around a bit, which now require a larger emphasis on party/character placement.  The smart AoE damagers have an increased MP cost.  

Ultimately the aoe of both of these is either reduced or somehow penalized.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Bahamut: 100% Dead, dumb targeting, 5 AoE and 10 Vert Tol.  9001 MP Cost, Adramelk only, learn-on-hit.

Lol.

But, seriously, um...

Needs to be smart targeting and high damage.  Bahamut isn't stupid, nor is he a flaming pussy besides in FFX where he looks like a giant turkey.

Too bad there isn't a way to make a straight "Cost: All MP" formula.  Then we could probably pull something cool off with Bahamut.

Hmm...

Outside of the Bahamut conundrum (as I'm assuming Zodiac is still staying ridiculous due to it being Zodiac), my main qualm is the fact Salamander and Ifrit are exactly the same.  I'd have liked them to be different to give reason to use each, but since you're doing Summons in tiers I suppose its not a big deal.

Fairy is still a reviving Summon, yes?  2 AoE reviving in this hack seems pretty powerful unless it's not very accurate.

Is it possible to make Bahamut 2 (maybe 3?) AoE, smart, but make it so the AoE can only emanate from the caster in form of 1.3's Spin Fist?

Though I suppose since the above is more like Bahamut is protecting the caster directly, it could even be a 3 AoE dumb epic damage Summon.

EDIT:

Like new Draw Outs, but Heaven's Cloud still seems ridiculous.  Maybe allow it to go to MA * 8 and let the Elementals ascend to MA * 10, or even just have all 3 share a plane?  Then again, with everything already much slower, I suppose being Slowed would be less devastating just as being Hasted wouldn't be as auto-winning.

[Sephirot24]

Hmm, I will have to test all this before giving my opinion.
It looks interesting to say the least =P