FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[The Damned]

(Well that's at least one more person in the "Mimes shouldn't be able to Mime map wide-abilities" group for a grand total of...two since no one else has said anything about it one way or the other.)

Oh, so the new Wiznaibus would also be CT 8? Then I can definitely get behind a "With Knives" that does 15% CurHP at 100% every 8 clockticks and no longer adds Poison. That should...probably be fine.

So, with that "decided", where does that currently leave the rest of Sing/Song & Dance? I think we've only *really* discussed Nameless Song and now Wiznaibus despite everything else being brought up:


SONGS & DANCES AS A WHOLE:
1. Reactions: MA Save, PA Save & Faith UP are fine in their current price. Everyone agreed that Brave UP needs a JP reduction since it...kinda sucks. So Brave UP is becoming 100 JP in 1.39.
2. Supports: Neither Bard nor Dance have these still and they can frankly forgo them given they have 5 RSMs already.
3. Movement: Fly's JP cost was deemed fine, with the problem being that Ignore Height cost too much, so that's getting reduced to 150 JP in 1.39.
4. Non-Uniform MP Costs: Brought up by Dokurider, this was the proposition that some Songs and Dances really should cost more MP than others. Aside from myself, no one has really commented on this one way or the other.
5. Songs & Dances no longer being subject to Mimic: Brought up by myself, this was part of the proposition that Mimes no longer be able to mimic any ability that hit the entire map, which also includes half of Lore. Aside from Dokurider, no one has really commented on this one way or the other.


SONGS
1. Angel Song: Could stand to be slightly slower in CT, maybe. It seems otherwise fine and hasn't been discussed really at all.
2. Life Song: Maybe fine as it is, though people have complained about its lack of power. Slightly discussed.
3. Cheer Song: Not really discussed at all outside of my saying it could probably stand to have its CT decreased to 9 or 8 CT so the singer doesn't end up out-speeding its resolution so easily. Its MP might need a boost just because +1 SP is powerful even if Cheer Song itself currently is basically horrible. *looks at Quickening*
4. Battle Song: Aside from myself saying that it & Magic Song should go back to 50% accuracy or, at the very least, need an increase in MP, no one has discussed this one way or the other.
5. Magic Song: Aside from myself saying that it & Battle Song should go back to 50% accuracy or, at the very least, need an increase in MP, no one has discussed this one way or the other.
6. Nameless Song: The current form of this probably needs to be scrapped for valid reasons brought up by Dokurider about it not being able to compete with Iron Will, Wall, the Perfumes and newly boosted Knight('s) Swords, among other things, even with Reraise and even if we add Haste. This because the current, necessary randomness of the buffs make them unpredictable and nigh useless, especially given the A.I. hesitance to use them until an ally is hurt. Presently, Dokurider has suggested remaking Nameless Song as "Cancel: Undead, Berserk, Frog & Death Sentence" at 40%, which I have personally backed. No one else has commented on it to the best of my recollection.
7. Last Song: We seem to be going with my idea to boost it back up to at least 40%, which was really just a scaling down of my backing CT5Holy's idea to bring it back to 50%. If Mimes can truly no longer mimic Songs, then this can probably go back to 50%, maybe, though it would have to cost more MP than it costs now and maybe cost more MP than Cheer Song. I'm not sure yet. No one has said anything about this one way or the other though.


DANCES:
1. Witch Hunt: Outside of a brief discussion that this could perhaps stand to do more MP damage (because of Absorb MP & Move-MP Up) and my saying it could probably also stand to be slightly slower than CT 4 if that's the case, no one's said anything about this.
2. Wiznaibus/With Knives/Whatever: See the discussion on the last page. This is easily the most discussed Dance.
3. Slow Dance: I am pretty sure at least three people, including Dokurider and myself, agreed it needs to cost more MP. Otherwise, no one has said anything about it one way or the other.
4. Polka Polka: Outside of my saying that Battle Song should probably come back to 50% for its sake and saying that it could maybe stand to cost slightly more MP so long as it costs less than Battle Song, no one has anything about this one way or the other.
5. Disillusion: Outside of my saying that Magic Song should probably come back to 50% for its sake and saying that it could maybe stand to cost slightly more MP so long as it costs less than Magic Song, no one has anything about this one way or the other.
6. Nameless Song: I guess this probably isn't changing at all with the current Wiznaibus discussion. No one has discussed it at all independent on what's happening to Wiznaibus, with pretty much any change here having been dependent on Wiznaibus dying as a damage ability entirely.
7. Last Dance: We seem to be going with my idea to boost it back up to at least 40%, which was really just a scaling down of my backing CT5Holy's idea to bring its opposite of Last Song back to 50%. This even though it's "weaker" than Last Snog, simply because it with a Mime seemed like it could become really obnoxious with Quickening dying if it was brought back to 50%. If Mimes are no longer able to mimic Dance, then this could probably be fine going back to 50%. At the very least, it seems as if Last Dance should probably cost less MP than Last Song since CT00 is kinda unimpressive compared to Quick.


This reminds me that in addition to still needing to count up equipment, I still need to count up abilities as well.

[Malroth]

Well I'm of the opinion that the current incarnation of Dance is massively under powered to the point of worthlessness even with miming and Mimes are a Universaly bad option anyway so Further nurfing Dances Because of Mimes Would definately see the end of any possible dance build. 


No team has sucessfuly run either Polka Polka or Dissilution,  The AI does not know which is the bigger priority for a given enemy team and at best they'll choose randomly,  and since relavent PA or MA based threats typicaly have 16+ in their base stat  wearing them down to a non threatening 8 will take longer than any other stratagey including breaking every piece of equipment, or Poisoning them with Kyomori and simply waiting for them to drop.

Witch Hunt has Niche uses to minimize enemy Quickening usage but mostly isn't applicable against a well built team.  Looses out massively to the incredibly overpowered Bizen Bolt.

Slow dance would be nice in theory but its current Accuracy problems prohibit any actual usefulness.

Nameless Dance lacks any useful statuses.  Silence Is useless on 60% of units and is blocked on 90% of the remaining units that carry one or more magics,  Darkness would be nice for evasion teams but it does not affect magic, guns, concentrate or hidden knife equipped units and is a commonly blocked status both for glass cannon melee and tanks.  Slow is currently oblivated by the omnipresent masamune.  Oil is a good status for a team built around it but can't keep up with 12% chance of being relevant.

Wizanabus is currently both unusably weak yet has properties that make it scary to the point where nobody wants to make it stronger Because of what a Mime could do with it,  But since mimes are going to be changed next patch their stats are almost certianly going to be dropped in line with the other classes and since only 2 copies of each piece of gear are going to be allowed  the worst case damage calculations shouldn't be made assuming 4x 16+ PA units (which is still a bad baseline because every unit equiped like this will be 1hkoed by the 1st spell or bowshot anyway and drop the damage output by 50% regardless of the unit dropped) but should instead be made assuming 2x 16PA units who are wearing all the PA boosting gear possible and 2X12 PA units stuck with the leftovers.

[The Damned]

(Even if Dance was as bad as you think--I'm not going to deny it has issues, obviously--it was, there's no good reason why we should be acting like letting it continue to be Mimed would be a merit: classes need to be able to stand on their own.)

Putting Wiznaibus aside for now, let's talk about the other Dances. Again:


1. Polka Polka & Disillusion: Some people did use these. Forever ago. As in before you came around. And then I vaguely recall few people kvetching that the stat minus dances were boring and made matches drag on forever and were no fun when they actually did work. So they got dropped to the current percentage you see now and Polka Polka & Disillusion have never been used effectively again, in no small part due to the fact that Magic Song & Battle Song got rather unnecessary accuracy buffs later on.

2. Witch Hunt: I concur.

3. Slow Dance: I'll put this nicely: You're insane. The only presently stopping Slow Dance from being overpowering, maybe even broken, with Phoenix Blade around is an even more overpowered technique that tells Slow Dance to STFU: Quickening. This part of the reason why Cheer Song needs to be strengthened.

Even without Phoenix Blade, Slow Dance would still be pretty damn decent if you can make your team tanky or distracting enough.

4. Nameless Dance: In truth, it is kinda "meh", but it can still be useful, especially since it tends to make the A.I. not cure the statuses it inflicts so long as it's being danced. This is why, in addition to the inanity of Frog, it lost some other things it initially inflict like Poison and such. I'm not really sure what else could be added here though given the Dance conflict since adding Poison or Don't Move in seems the most "obvious" (since it only reduces the change for other things by 2% or 3%), but "uncurable" either versions of those would be "bad". (And before you say "But the A.I. uses Masamune on targets Slowed by Nameless Dance all the time!", the A.I. does that because Haste is prioritized and it just happens that Haste cancels Slow [?] and vice-versa.)


Guess there's no point in saying anything about Last Dance, so....

[Malroth]

Units don't cure the statuses from nameless dance?

[The Damned]

(I forgot to correct something Nameless Dance-related last time that you said: Concentrate and Hidden Knife are vulnerable to Blind. I'd still be fine with Hidden Knife losing Always: Transparent though.)

As long as a Nameless Dance is still being danced, no, the A.I. will utterly refuse to heal anything it can cause for whatever reason, probably because it sees it as hopeless. After all, among the many things the A.I. is blind to, both the Random Inflict Status Code assignment and percentages that aren't 00% seem to be among them. So it probably just sees Nameless Dance as "Add: All Blind, Silence, Oil & Slow" and thinks that those things are just going to get re-added anyway, so why bother curing it?

It's just difficult to notice since the A.I. tends not to cure Blind & Silence anyway even though those last "forever", Oil tends to get "cured" pretty quickly anyway by dying and Slow has nothing that just cancels it without adding Haste except Refute, which cancels almost everything.

But, yeah, Nameless Dance could probably stand a boost. It's just difficult to think of what it could be given that issue.

[Malroth]

Don't Move is a good candidate since it wears off after 1 turn anyway,  I was going to reccomend frog since a second application would cure it on its own but seeing as the AI won't cure the frogs  then it becomes a very bad idea.

[The Damned]

(Yeah, Nameless Dance originally had Frog and let's just say it was...stupid. I think Nameless Dance only de-Frogged a Frog like...once or twice ever.)

Well, yeah, Don't Move by itself would be fine...if it wasn't for the A.I. not curing things. As it is, it just seems like with Don't Move, some really stupid teams might come up abusing that fact alongside things like Hunting Bow and the spell Don't Move.

Still, it's probably the least horrible option since Poison is worse and everything else is way worse and I was originally saying that Nameless Dance could probably stand to add Don't Move at 12%, so....

[Gaignun]

I'm guessing the "it" here is "Poison status" rather than Wiznaibus, right?

No, it refers to the new status that seals reactions.

I think changing Wiznaibus from a damage skill to a status skill is best, but there's no use trying to redirect popular opinion.

Let me try a different approach: can we scrap Phoenix Blade?  We can put Dokurider's wind sword in its place.

Edit: Let me mix in some ideas from several pages ago.

Phoenix Blade Kazekiri: 10 WP, 10 W-EV, Wind Element, 2 Range, 2H, No 2S
Coral Sword: 7 WP, 10 W-EV, Water Element, 33% Cast: Suiton, 2H, 2S
Genji Helmet: 120 HP, Strengthen: Wind (Init: Berserk removed).

Kazekiri:  Its damage is about the same as a 12-WP Air Knife.  It has +1 Range, but -1 Move and -5 W-EV.  Basically, it's an Air Knife for Paladins and Geomancers.  If this is too samey, we can change it into a different element, preferably Dark.

Coral Sword: This version has about the same power as Platinum Sword on average and is much more effective at busting 40-40 BrFa and Flash-Hat users.  More importantly, it'll have crazy burst damage.  When dual-wielded, it can push 280 damage against a 40-70 target 57% of the time (pre-evasion).  That's about 40 damage more than what a 12-WP Air Knife deals to that same target 100% of the time.  WP has been dropped from 9 to 7 to compensate for this.

Genji Helmet: This should make Heaven's Cloud much more usable on the Samurai class.  Cool, but kind of limited in application.  To remedy this, we can add Strengthen: Water or Strengthen: Earth. 

Strengthen: Water will primarily buff Whale Whisker Samurai (optimised damage on a female Samurai is 252~352 with 324 HP and a free accessory slot).  For comparison, optimised damage on Thieves with 13-WP Air Knives is 266~374 damage with 294 HP and no free accessory slot.  Bear in mind that Thieves have higher base SP.  Still, kind of scary.

Strengthen: Earth will primarily buff Kikuichimoji.  Other buffs, however niche, include armor-clad Titan and Quake users.  This will nicely overlay Genji Helm with the new Thief Hat as complementary headgear: one strengthens wind and earth; the other halves them.  In my opinion, this is the better of the two choices.

Does anyone have any comments about these proposals?

[Otabo]

Let me try a different approach: can we scrap Phoenix Blade?  We can put Dokurider's wind sword in its place.

Yes, please. Let's just get rid of that thing already.

[Dokurider]

I was going to save this after the tournament, but I guess I'll just say this now about Phoenix Blade, seeing that my odds of departing from the tourney are actually pretty good and thus I won't get to show what Phoenix Blade can really do:

Phoenix Blade is unworkable. Specifically, Always: Reraise is unworkable. All Always: Slow did was make the unit mostly useless until it died, then it becomes the best way of removing an enemy from battle via kill loops. If Always: Slow could not balance Always: Reraise, then nothing will. Not without defeating the point of the attribute. Even if our technology advances and we can add a -4 Speed Penalty, it would just turn into Cursed Ring without any of the drawbacks. Let's not even get into what happens when it pairs up with the otherwise decent Balance.

It was a good experiment, with a clever attempt at balancing, but I don't think Always: Reraise could ever be balanced.

So with that and I'm pretty sure Angelus proved that Shieldrender doesn't work, we have two sword slots open. I still say Always: Transparent can be balanced, perhaps not with Speed + 1. That was my first idea for a Wind Sword. My other sword idea was for a Range + 1 sword. I'd actually like to expand on that possibly by letting it be Two Swordable.

In case you don't know, no weapon with more than 1 range has been verboten because if it's paired with a 1 range weapon, that 1 range weapon will hit the enemy anyways, even if it's well outside of it's range. It saw some use in 1.3 as an enemy only setup but I don't see why we can't utilize this glitch other than it'll look a little derpy.

Basically doing this will act as a crude range extender and can set up a lot of stylish combos.

[Eternal]

I don't know about you guys, but I dislike the idea of using a glitch as a gameplay mechanic. I agree that Phoenix Blade has to go, so I propose the following Swords:

-Beastslayer (Cast: Sidewinder)

With monsters being introduced soon, I feel this would be a fun addition. Sidewinder would Add: Death or something onto a Monster, unless FFM could modify the formula for Reis' skills to do heavy damage to a monster or something.

-Buster Sword (Cast: Shellbust Stab)

Assuming FFM makes Shellbust Stab evadeable, this would be a fun replacement for Shieldrender. It would have low WP, but the proc would make up for it. If destroying armor is too much, I suppose it could be made to proc Icewolf Bite or Blastar Punch instead.

[Dokurider]

I don't know about you guys, but I dislike the idea of using a glitch as a gameplay mechanic.

You mean like Combos from Street Fighter 2? Not that I'm saying this is on that level, but still...

-Beastslayer (Cast: Sidewinder)

-Buster Sword (Cast: Shellbust Stab)

The reason why we're changing Shieldrender/Bow Gun is that even if they worked, they'd be broken/terrible to play against. We don't want Might Sword in Arena in any form. Being able to insta kill any kind of unit for free is awful.

[Eternal]

Naturally, they wouldn't be 100% procs, and I fail to see why weapons (that would have low WP, to boot) that can break things would be broken.

We already have Archers who can break stuff from afar while not sacrificing WP to do so, so how would a 1 range weapon (at least in the case of the Buster Sword) that doesn't even have a 100% proc be broken? Assuming we give it 6 WP, if the proc goes off, it'd be 12 WP worth of damage 25-30% of the time, depending on what FFM would set the proc rate as, doing more effective damage depending on if it breaks Helms/Armor, of course. Further, if people are so dreadfully concerned about having their gear broken/stolen, they can always use Maintenance. It's there for a reason.

As far as Beastslayer goes, I was considering it adding Doom instead of Death, but that seems silly, since Throwing Knife has range and adds Doom on -anything- instead of just monsters.

[The Damned]

(I knew that Dokurider was secretly Dante in disguise.)

Wait, since when are monsters "soon", Eternal? This isn't rhetorical.

We still haven't even talked about monsters at all outside of the awkward Blue Mage discussion earlier this year where nothing got answered.

No, it refers to the new status that seals reactions.

Oh, I see. This is why I nag people about antecedents.

I think changing Wiznaibus from a damage skill to a status skill is best, but there's no use trying to redirect popular opinion.

Oh, it's not like you can try. Half of the shit I said initially wasn't popular but it's basically be implemented.

As it stands now, I personally just think Dokurider's change Wiznaibus-as-damage-still is reasonable, not something that I steadfastly support, especially if a better option comes up. It's just that, I as I explained to Malroth above, I've come to realize that even add "only" Poison would be "bad" given how the A.I. being targeted by Dance reacts (or doesn't). My initial idea of "Dirty Dance" would probably end up being pretty overpowering, even if Oil gets a nerf.

Let me try a different approach: can we scrap Phoenix Blade?  We can put Dokurider's wind sword in its place.

We can. Outside of Raven and maybe reinoe, I'm not sure any one actually likes that thing. I only agreed to let it live another version back when I had basically get on beg people to see just how stupid Quickening was and get them to agree to kill that if nothing else.

That said, I'm pretty sure that Airrender/Kazekiri/Whatever/Squall Sword was going to replace Shieldrender given that that sword and Bow Gun would doubtless be pretty dumb if they were actually working.

Not really sure what other sword idea we could come up with if suddenly "need" two now, but since you said that you wanted a Dark sword, I'll try and think of something while I'm on my walk.

Coral Sword: This version has about the same power as Platinum Sword on average and is much more effective at busting 40-40 BrFa and Flash-Hat users.  More importantly, it'll have crazy burst damage.  When dual-wielded, it can push 280 damage against a 40-70 target 57% of the time (pre-evasion).  That's about 40 damage more than what a 12-WP Air Knife deals to that same target 100% of the time.  WP has been dropped from 9 to 7 to compensate for this.

I'm going to assume you mean 70-40 here given both Attack's damage going off the Fury of targets and the -tons damage going off UnFaith.

I guess I can get behind that, though I'd honestly like for there to be a sword that reduced having actual high Faith rather than just MA at best. Right now, Icebrand is the closest thing and frankly that sucks if you're trying to use it for its proc, though part of the problem there is Tier 2 Black Magic being overshadowed by Tier 1.

Regardless, how exactly are deciding on the -ton thing anyway?

Genji Helmet: This should make Heaven's Cloud much more usable on the Samurai class.  Cool, but kind of limited in application.  To remedy this, we can add Strengthen: Water or Strengthen: Earth. 

Strengthen: Water will primarily buff Whale Whisker Samurai. *snip*

Strengthen: Earth will primarily buff Kikuichimoji. *snip*

I've already said that if the new Genji Helm (or whichever Helm) got more than Strengthen: Wind, then I'd want to be Strengthen: Earth mostly for reasons you said. Dokurider objected to Strengthen: Earth mostly on grounds of Kikuichimoji--I'm guessing the ability since no one is using the damn katana anymore--possibly becoming overpowering given the Earth element abilities, sans maybe Titan, are pretty good already.

We both agreed that there's no way in hell it should be Strengthen: Water though. Doublehanding Whale Whisker units already do extreme amounts of damage.

[reinoe]

Important news everyone!  A shocking revelation thanks to the Zareb v Vigilanti match.  BOW GUN WORKS.  I repeat BOW GUN WORKS!(capitalization intentional in order to indicate actual yelling).  This means that Shieldrender may actually be working as well.  Many people (myself included) also thought pilgrimage and warpath weren't working.  Wow, these arena matches are educational in more ways than one.

[Otabo]

Confirmed that the Shieldrender works, too.

All units have Shieldrender, Escutcheon II & Counter equipped. The thing works, folks.

[Gaignun]

I'm going to assume you mean 70-40 here given both Attack's damage going off the Fury of targets and the -tons damage going off UnFaith.

No, I mean 40-70.  Against 70-40, it'll do ~380.

Suiton will probably stay as Suiton.

Dokurider objected to Strengthen: Earth mostly on grounds of Kikuichimoji--I'm guessing the ability since no one is using the damn katana anymore--possibly becoming overpowering given the Earth element abilities, sans maybe Titan, are pretty good already.

Hmm.  Well, Earth Clothes has been buffing Kikuichimoji on Bards and Geomancers for awhile now.  This change will make Samurai as good at using Kiku as these two classes, but no better (and with no Earth absorption).

Glad to receive conformation about Bow Gun and Shieldrender working.  Thanks for the info, Reinoe and Otabo. 

[Dokurider]

Kazekiri:  Its damage is about the same as a 12-WP Air Knife.  It has +1 Range, but -1 Move and -5 W-EV.  Basically, it's an Air Knife for Paladins and Geomancers.  If this is too samey, we can change it into a different element, preferably Dark.

It does seem a little too similar to Air Knife only even easier to power up thanks to Genji Helmet + PA formula. I don't think it should be two handable. Just give it 12-13 WP and leave it one handed only.

Important news everyone!  A shocking revelation thanks to the Zareb v Vigilanti match.  BOW GUN WORKS.  I repeat BOW GUN WORKS!(capitalization intentional in order to indicate actual yelling).  This means that Shieldrender may actually be working as well.  Many people (myself included) also thought pilgrimage and warpath weren't working.  Wow, these arena matches are educational in more ways than one.

Confirmed that the Shieldrender works, too.

All units have Shieldrender, Escutcheon II & Counter equipped. The thing works, folks.

Hm, this changes things. They don't deal damage, so I suppose it meant it proc'd the the actual item breaking proc as oppose to the skills themselves. So what'll it be guys, keep them or replace them anyways? I actually think Shieldrender/Bow Gun are the best item breaking you can implement. That being said:

Naturally, they wouldn't be 100% procs, and I fail to see why weapons (that would have low WP, to boot) that can break things would be broken.

We already have Archers who can break stuff from afar while not sacrificing WP to do so, so how would a 1 range weapon (at least in the case of the Buster Sword) that doesn't even have a 100% proc be broken? Assuming we give it 6 WP, if the proc goes off, it'd be 12 WP worth of damage 25-30% of the time, depending on what FFM would set the proc rate as, doing more effective damage depending on if it breaks Helms/Armor, of course. Further, if people are so dreadfully concerned about having their gear broken/stolen, they can always use Maintenance. It's there for a reason.\

Breaks are powerful, but carry an AI cost of basically nerfing your damage output as the AI switches from breaks to damage. Most good users of the Breaks only carry what they need lest they spend the entire match trying to break everyone's crap instead of actually dealing damage. By adding it to weapons as proc, even with low WP and low procs makes breaking items way too easy, especially in combos, like Weapon Break + Item Breaking weapon. I just don't want item breaking to be a dominant strategy and that'll happen by making it easy to implement. Then again, I'd rather have Shieldrender then...this, and I might just have a bug up my ass about item breaking weapons.

Hmm.  Well, Earth Clothes has been buffing Kikuichimoji on Bards and Geomancers for awhile now.  This change will make Samurai as good at using Kiku as these two classes, but no better (and with no Earth absorption).

I suppose Earth strength would be OK, but leaving Whale Samurai with a free accessory might be trouble. Whatever, do it and we'll measure it by how pissed off everyone gets when they start getting sodomized by Whale Whisker on a regular basis.

[The Damned]

(So Bow Gun & Shieldrender work, albeit oddly? Well...shit. Not sure how this changes things then.)

Regardless, I thought up another sword after I finally went for a walk. It's probably terrible like most of my ideas, but meh. We potentially might not need it now even if we are getting rid of Phoenix Blade, what with Shieldrender "working" in a non-broken fashion:


Terror Blade/Darkhold Blade/Darkbringer/Magus Sword: WP: 8; W-EV: 15%; Range: 1; Element: Dark; Special: 50% Stop (Spell/Ability); Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: ...Probably not.


...Okay, so this thing occurred to me when I realized that a) I could perhaps get away with Gaignun "wanting" a Dark element sword & myself wanting a sword that actually rewarded high Faith and b) no close-range weapon currently causes Stop. Additionally, both the weapons that cause Stop are (at least partially) MA-based and generally not that accessible. This while Chronos Tear now exists and Mythril Helm (or some Helm) will now be not redundant and usable if it gets Immune: Blind alongside Immune: Stop; the latter also somewhat applies to Jade Armlet getting a boost going into 1.39.

(It's kind of amusing how I keep "defaulting" to Stop-based stuff despite almost never using that side of Time Magic. Hmm....)

Anyway, this is meant to both be a replacement for Phoenix Blade (power-wise when Double-handed) and a high-risk, high-reward sword (since it actually rewards high Faith rather than just high MA, so 70/70 set-ups on a melee unit are now slightly less insane). The high-risk, high-reward nature seems fitting of a Dark-type sword, really, and I didn't want to make a Dark type sword that stepped on Blood Sword.

The relatively low WP is partly because of Golden Hairpin being widely accessible; it's also partly because I still think that Ko(u)tetsu Knife, like Asura Knife, should also have 10 WP, but...it doesn't (still...yet). The relatively high W-EV is mostly because Stop doesn't last that long--even if I'm still uncomfortable with it being on Hell Ivy now--and because the unit has to be 70/70 to get the most out of it, meaning they're going to get hurt if they get hit; this without being able to heal themselves like with Blood Sword. The high amount of proc is because Madlemgen & Lamia Harp already proc Stop status straight at 33% & from a distance  and the Stop spell probably has less of a chance than that even at 50% even with 70 Faith on the the "average" melee unit. Finally, Two Hands but no Two Swords just because Ninja already has too much crap and this sword could be annoying enough as it is without being able to pair it up with Muramasa (the katana) on the same unit.

I'll let this little train wreck burn into your minds for a bit since I just remembered something I need to bug FFMaster about in the "complaint" thread.

[reinoe]

I think we really shouldn't change Bowgun or Shieldrender until they get tested on various teams.  Bowgun could still be potentially broken since it's "Armor Break" but Shieldrender, even when it's working, still might be underpowered.