FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[Gaignun]

Iron Booters using MP-regen bags is fine with me.  Bags have no W-EV or stat bonuses, so there's a tradeoff.  I say we let the cards fall where they may.

That is, if the cards fall at all.  Judging by the lack of activity on these boards, I'm guessing FFMaster is busy with other things.

[The Damned]

(Yeah, I figure FFMaster is rather busy as well. He does seem to actually have a life and has basically been doing ARENA alone for the past year and a half.)

Well, actually, I'd be fine with Iron Boots users using an Always: Refresh bag (if one existed), given that would get around Iron Boots & Genji Armor blocking: Refresh anyway. I was merely saying that's a way to preemptively nip it in the bud if the needs actually arises or whatever provided two statuses actually make it in among the shitload of other changes already slated just for 1.39.

While we're talking about Poison & Regen as they related to Journey of the Five, I have to ask something else:


Given utter ambivalence of people over having Cursed Ring losing Sp +1 (especially if some people want fucking Quickening to still stay around), then perhaps "we" should make the Undead immune to Regen & Poison as in Jot5?


That would at least mitigate some of the power of Masamune has right now since Regen currently makes it trivial for Undead teams to heal on top of them being guaranteed to get back up every 400 CT.

[reinoe]

Another possible balance issue I noticed.

I realized that I still haven't used the "Black Magic" skillset so I made an all-wizards team (The Wizards Of Oz).  One of the things I immediately noticed is that the level 1 spells are far more favorable to use than the level 2 spells and the "Nether" spells.  Because they have a 20% chance of adding some effect it can be considered worthwhile to simply load up on those spells.

Also the "Water" series is underpowered compared to the other elements.  The other elements can be strengthened by Kaiser plate and the naturally fitting Black Robe.  But it's more difficult for a wizard to boost water, instead relying on 108 gems or equipping the Coral Sword.  Also compare the "Ice" series to the "Water" series.  For the same power level the Ice element is usually half the MP.  Water is not Reflectable but is that worth nearly double the MP? 

Since the "nether" spells take up more MP perhaps have those spells proc at a 10% higher rate(30%) and the level 2 spells proce at another 10% higher rate(40%).  A possible solution to the Water elemental situation would be to make water both not reflectable AND not evadable.

[CT5Holy]

Each element is supposed to have its own unique perk. Fire has better AoE, Lightning better damage, Ice has reduced MP costs, Water is unreflectable. Wizard has Prismatic Rod to boost Water, and 108 Gems boosts everything, so you can just use that and you're set =P

Also, the status proc is meant to differentiate the tiers. Tier 1 is the procs, Nether Tier is UnFury damage instead of Faith, Tier 2 is for max damage. Giving the other tiers the procs as well would then kinda obviate Tier 1 IMO, cause the Nether spells would then proc at a better rate, but have the same CT, as well as let the caster run 40/40 -> better protected against enemy magic. And then the Nether spells would probably be the 'best.' And at 40% proc for Tier 2, that means if they aren't dead, they get crippled (mainly with Ice's Slow proc). Heck, since Tier 2 has the best damage, just run someone with ele boosting and short charge and the tier 2 spells to wreak havoc.

There are valid reasons to use any element, at any tier. I think Black Magic is quite fine.

Though hmm, unevadable Water does sound interesting.... It doesn't need that buff though. It would tread on Summon Magic if Water became unevadable as well. Black Magic is fine.

Anyone else's thoughts?

[reinoe]

Yes I did forget about Prismatic Rod.  I always forget about Prismatic Rod.  But the water spells still seem weak for the MP cost. 

[CT5Holy]

I dunno, the MP cost seems fair (remember, Ice is meant to cost very little MP), and ignoring Reflect is rather important. A fairly common (at least for a while) option was to give a 70 Faith unit Reflect and more or less dodge most magic, especially since Summon doesn't usually produce life-threatening numbers. Water 2 lets you really punish that, and Water's proc can dispel the Reflect, letting other mages connect with their spells as well! Also lets you run Water absorb+Reflect, which I thought was totally awesome when I saw that interaction (it's still pretty cool >_>).

Water seems pretty good, haha.

[The Damned]

(I''m still not back in ARENA [yet?], but since not much has changed....)

Yeah, Black Magic is mostly fine outside of Poison sucking foot-long cock and badly at that despite the AI's willingness to use it. The Water spells could maybe use a slight MP decrease and Death could maybe use...something, but other than that, they're fine. I mean, Flare could maybe use something to, but really it's just that Holy needs to be "nerfed" between it being too fast, too powerful and too cost-efficient even before the issue of the current Golden Hairpin being overpowered.

If anything, then a bunch of people might argue that the Level 1 series of spells causing statuses is what makes them less viable. This is because there's a very real chance of you screwing up your own team even (or perhaps especially) if you absorb the element in question.


*looks at how he had to change the Fairy Tale Fairness team from having Faith Rods since Water can get rid of Faith or how the various Fire-based teams have to block Oil unless they want to accidentally destroy themselves*


Regardless, Black Magic is already getting an implicit boost whenever/if-ever 1.39 comes out between Scholar's Wizard+ stats buying it and the Bio series of spells, which stepped on Water's role since Lore currently ignores Reflect and were/are faster, also dying.

So outside of making Poison actually worth using and maybe reducing the MP costs of some spells like Flare, current Black Magic is fine and actually usable and it's only going to get better.

Currently, of the four elements that Wizard has (ignoring Death being Dark), I still think that Ice is the most screwed actually. Ice Absorb has always been one of the lesser, if the least, used elements through ARENA and nowadays there's basically no reason to use Ice Absorb unless you're using a Glacier Gun and even that's usually not team Ice-Absorb. It's not exactly like anyone's really using the elemental Rods either, so Prismatic Rod boosting Water alongside four other elements is actually pretty damn good.

[Dokurider]

Funny you should mention the Ice spells. I actually have found that because of their low MP costs, you don't have to use up an head/armor slot for an MP bonus. Just slap on Move MP Up for unlimited Ice spells.

As for removing the Speed Bonus from Cursed Ring, I support it. Not only does the +Speed hurt casters, but it plays too well into obnoxious immortal speed builds.

[CT5Holy]

A couple of things that came to mind:

As much as I love Thief Hat, I think it should lose Half: Wind. As is, Thief Hat makes Quake and Tornado inconsequential, and when coupled with Black Costume, shuts off Ninjitsu. Losing Half: Wind allows Tornado and Fuuton to be relevant again against Thief Hat users.

Alternatively, or perhaps additionally, we should give Secret Clothes a small buff. It pales in comparison to Thief Hat, since it only gives the +1 Speed, and it has tougher competition (the ele absorb clothes). I was thinking of either moving the Half: Wind from Thief Hat to Secret Clothes, or give Secret Clothes immunity to one or two status effects. I'm thinking Immune: Blind and/or Don't Move.

Thoughts? I realize that status immunity is meant to be armor's thing, but I think it's ok to have it on one piece of clothing.

Also, Ice is awesome for the low MP cost as Doku mentioned, and because it's not used much for element absorb teams, that means people aren't running Santa Outfit -> Ice is not being absorbed -> Ice spells are actually effective.
I'm not sure if 'Ice is one of the least used elements' is correct, either. That probably goes to Water since it didn't have much support until very recently, and there wasn't much differentiation between the elements in Black Magic. Also Ice Brand + Grand Cross is quite strong, as seen in Aero's Snow Pirates.

[Dokurider]

Tornado is still very much a relevant spell because of it's sheer speed and AoE. There's also the dangers of Air Knife (yeah everyone's must have forgotten about it ever since Air Krieg was banned from recording) and Thief Hat's the only item that stops it from utter domination. That being said, once Air Knife and Tornado is reined back in, Wind will go back to being a mediocre elemental, so I suppose you do have a point. I do however agree that Secret Clothes could use a buff and perhaps moving Half: Wind to it would be okay. Not Immune: Blind because it's one of a few ways to thwart most high speed units.

[The Damned]

(Well, good to know that at least one [more] person agrees that Cursed Ring should lose its +1 Speed.

Too bad that won't mean much of anything if Quickening stays around like half of the people want[ed] it to for some unfathomable reason. So noted though.)


I was just reminded--by looking at the thread title as I keep switching between windows actually, haha--that I'm still not really sure how people feel about Balance the spell when it comes to, well, mages actually using it. I'm thinking about this between the Jot5 talk and the fact that, right now, even with proposed changes to Time Mage, Time Mage is probably still not going to be able to make use of the current Balance.

Then again, I'd argue that the current Balance in and of itself is the problem, but I've never liked Shock-esque abilities, so I'm admittedly biased....

A couple of things that came to mind:

As much as I love Thief Hat, I think it should lose Half: Wind. As is, Thief Hat makes Quake and Tornado inconsequential, and when coupled with Black Costume, shuts off Ninjitsu. Losing Half: Wind allows Tornado and Fuuton to be relevant again against Thief Hat users.

I suppose I agree with the overall sentiment, but as someone who tends to--tended?--play mages, Quake & Tornado are far from inconsequential. If they're anything, then they're too fast at 2 CT and way too powerful (read: furious) for the speed and AoE that they have. Part of that will be eased by Scholar's Wizard+ stats dying though. Also, IIRC, I think "everyone" (who responded...which was probably only a couple of people) agreed that Quake & Tornado should go back to being CT 3, so there's that too.

But, yeah, that's pretty much another "mage-only" problem like the "Poison after death" thing unless you happen to have gotten hit by Oil or Faith beforehand. It's always bothered me that Thief Hat has halved so much, especially of the lesser used/available elements, if only because it tends to be used by classes already low on Faith and it gives +1.

I guess it potentially screws over Geomancy/Elemental too, but since Geomancers have largely been Draw Out bots and are still increasingly becoming so because of Tactician's Blade and Masamune... yeah. Also, outside of the utterly hax-y Water Ball, the both best and the most common Elemental abilities arguably aren't halved by Thief Hat's anyway.

Of course, there's a question of which element it "should" lose if it does lose one though. I guess Wind element is the most "sensible" given the Ninjutsu point, Dokurider pointing out how Heaven's Cloud kinda sucks and, if we're talking about Faith, Silf; like I said, Tornado is fine--I actually think Silf is fine too, but Silf isn't nuking any as it is like Tornado does/can, so.... It would also make it less redundant than removing Earth given there are a couple of things that still see relatively little use that entirely block both Wind & Water. This even if removing Halve: Earth would buff Earth Clothes and maybe buff the other things Block/Null: Earth, including Float.

...Of course, you could also remove Halve: Water instead, which would still work for Ninjutsu, give Leviathan an edge over Salamander, give the Water series another edge over other Black Magic (even if the current Defense Ring is kept) and help Coral Sword.

Again, I'm biased though.

Alternatively, or perhaps additionally, we should give Secret Clothes a small buff. It pales in comparison to Thief Hat, since it only gives the +1 Speed, and it has tougher competition (the ele absorb clothes). I was thinking of either moving the Half: Wind from Thief Hat to Secret Clothes, or give Secret Clothes immunity to one or two status effects. I'm thinking Immune: Blind and/or Don't Move.

Thoughts? I realize that status immunity is meant to be armor's thing, but I think it's ok to have it on one piece of clothing.

I kind of agree that Secret Clothes could use a buff and about the status immunity thing on a piece of clothing. I'm rather unsure as to what that buff or those statuses "should" be though and I'm also unsure as to how that work-around to the very limited Item Attribute space turned out. So right now I'm not going to say anything else on this.

Also, Ice is awesome for the low MP cost as Doku mentioned, and because it's not used much for element absorb teams, that means people aren't running Santa Outfit -> Ice is not being absorbed -> Ice spells are actually effective.

I'm not sure if 'Ice is one of the least used elements' is correct, either. That probably goes to Water since it didn't have much support until very recently, and there wasn't much differentiation between the elements in Black Magic. Also Ice Brand + Grand Cross is quite strong, as seen in Aero's Snow Pirates.

Well, it's not like Ice spells suck or anything now that they actually differ from the other spells, it's just that MP cost is their only main difference. Other people have complained it's still rather "generic" compared to "I need more power!" Bolt, the larger AoE of Fire with its haxy Oil or even Water getting around Reflect and possibly canceling positive status (read: Masamune). I personally don't see much of a problem since I had an Ice absorb team, but I can see how a chance of adding "only" Slow rather than Oil or Don't Act can seem unappealing. Similarly, the low MP cost doesn't mean much when spellguns currently (still) do what Wizards do better for free and nuke Wizards in the mean time, especially since Wizards are already so squishy.

"Ironically", having the least backfire-capable status and lowest MP cost of all series would make you think that (in a vacuum), Ice-absorb would show up a lot more. But no....

Also, I meant Ice is probably one of the least used of the elements that could actually be effectively absorbed through overall ARENA history. As you already know, until very recently, Water absorption couldn't be done effectively at all, which is why I bitched to FFMaster about it for quite a while until it happened. I mean, outside of/before AeroGP's recent-ish team, there are only like...two other notable Ice absorb teams that come to mind to me before I went on hiatus for a bit. I mean, I'm sure that there have been more, but I can't remember anyone's besides my own and--this says a lot--PX's ancient Ice absorb team that actually did quite well.

Still, I wasn't very clear about that and it's not like you're psychic (or, at least, telepathic, right? ...Right?), so as usual being imprecise is my fault.

[AeroGP]

To be fair, Snow Pirates is not "recent-ish." It's just the logical conclusion of "Always Windy in Ivalice."

The loss of wind-absorb is telling of my opinion on Tornado losing CT 2.

[Gaignun]

I'm still not really sure how people feel about Balance the spell when it comes to, well, mages actually using it.

I thought Balance is going to Oracle.  Would anyone mind if I maintain a list of proposed changes in a separate thread so we're all on the same page?

IIRC, I think "everyone" (who responded...which was probably only a couple of people) agreed that Quake & Tornado should go back to being CT 3, so there's that too.

I didn't respond, but I am fine with Quake and Tornado being 2 CT.  It gives Tornado and Quake something over Black and Summon Magicks.  Their speed is compensated by their high MP cost.  They are also countered by the current Thief Hat.

I kind of agree that Secret Clothes could use a buff and about the status immunity thing on a piece of clothing. I'm rather unsure as to what that buff or those statuses "should" be though and I'm also unsure as to how that work-around to the very limited Item Attribute space turned out. So right now I'm not going to say anything else on this.

Currently, it is going to receive +10 HP (for a total of 70). This puts it in the same ballpark as Power Sleeve and Wizard Outfit. 

[The Damned]

(I'm actually the only person who proposed the Oracle thing and that was after the last time that FFMaster replied on the forums months ago, so I'm not even sure he saw it.

Regardless, no one said anything about one way or the other, so I thought it was ignored like most things I saw, for better or for worse.

*still waiting on Mediator stuff technically*)

Well, there's already the 139 changes for such a list. That got...cluttered, however in part due to myself, so I don't mind and I don't think anyone else would if you want to start a separate, Gaignun-only thread for it or whatever.

As for Secret Clothes, I'm honestly not sure that's enough, but like I said, I'm ambivalent ultimately in this case, at least presently.

As for Tornado & Quake, even without 2 CT, they'd still have their elements over Black Magick since that doesn't have Wind or Earth at all and they'd still have the ability to be absorbed over Summon Magick, whose ignoring of allies a double-edged sword in ARENA. Still, I'll admit that without the Wizard+ stats of Scholar, maybe even with 2 CT they'll be less "nuke" happy. Then again, it's not like Wizard won't exist still while Druid does and while expensive, it's not like 25 MP is all that prohibitive a cost on all but the most glass cannon-like of mage set-ups.

Shrug.

To be fair, Snow Pirates is not "recent-ish." It's just the logical conclusion of "Always Windy in Ivalice."

I wasn't around for that team then. So noted.

The loss of wind-absorb is telling of my opinion on Tornado losing CT 2.

Also noted.

[reinoe]

I don't know if the 1.39 changes thread is "cluttered".  But if you think about how if all the changes discussed and/or balance issues brought up since then were in that thread then that thread would probably be 10 pages.  I don't know if it's because we're REALLY REALLY divided or if we all are just throwing ideas out there and seeing what sticks.

You'd think that the changes between 1.38D and 1.39 would be the most controversial update ever.   But I think it's really because 1.38 is mostly balanced and we're arguing over the small things because the big things are really obvious or becoming increasingly so.

[Dokurider]

The thing about Quake is that I'm actually perfectly fine with it's CT and AoE (then again maybe it's too good versus Titan) thanks to being hard countered by Float and other Earth items keeps it balanced. But Tornado has no such problems, and that's a legitimate complaint.

[Gaignun]

I posted the summary.  I probably forgot some changes.  I added a few of my own on the fly:

Dual Cutters: 8 WP.  With extra attack, its average WP is 12.  This makes it the most powerful two-swordable weapon for ninja by 1 WP.

Stone Gun: -1 Range, -1 SP.  This is done to decrease Stone Gun's DPS, which currently dwarfs that of Longbows and Crossbows.  I removed "Init: Petrify" in compensation.  Maybe that's too good of a compensation.

Defense Armlet:  Added Immune: Poison, Blind in addition to Immune: Don't Move, Don't Act.  This makes it the melee-class equivalent of Defense Ring (which largely benefits mages).

Misogi: A new, economical, self-targeting Ninjutsu skill that cleanses benign status ailments.  Obviously, being self-targeting, it cannot cleanse serious ailments such as Petrify or Frog.

Summoner:  Granted a bonus ~20 base MP.  Frankly speaking, the Summoner class sucks due to its abysmally low HP.  By buffing its base MP to the 130~140 range, players may entirely forgo MP-boosting armour for HP-boosting armour to cover this glaring weakness.  This buff also promotes the use of Summoners for Summon Magick (as opposed to slapping Summon Magick on a mage class that doesn't suck), as Summon Magick is the most MP-intensive skill set in the game.

Titan: Made it ignore M-EV.  With their base MP boost, Summoners will be able to comfortably equip Earth Clothes for some serious Titan fury.  Here's a rough build idea using the new numbers:

Female Summoner
70 Faith, Wizard Staff, Black Hood, Earth Clothes
HP 296
MP ~190
MA 13 (effectively 16 with Earth Clothes)

Titan damage
126~176 (with Short Charge)
165~231 (with Magic Attack UP)
220~308 (with Magic Attack UP, Holy Miter, and Magic Gauntlet)

That ought to get people to consider using Vanish Small Mantles, Feather Boots, and Float!

Blind/Silence/Berserk:  Gave each a CT of 48.  The AI does not heal Blind or Silence on its own, so these ailments need a finite duration.  Berserk is given a finite CT to stem Insult shenanigans.

[reinoe]

First and foremost thanks a whole lot for doing this Gaignun!  You don't post often but you always seem to post something hugely significant!

The following is a (mostly) complete list of changes proposed for FFT Arena 1.39.  This list is for the purpose of display only.  Nothing on this list is final.

Please keep discussion of these and any additional changes confined to the discussion thread.

I will attempt to transfer ideas from the discussion thread to this thread once per week.

Buffs are highlighted in green.
Nerfs are highlighted in maroon.
Neutral changes are highlighted in blue.

spoiler: Weapons

2-Hand and 2-Sword properties are not changed unless otherwise stated.

Knives
Dual Cutters: 8 WP, 15 W-EV, +1 Move, 50% Extra Attack
Air Knife: 12 WP, 15 W-EV, +1 Move, Wind Elemental

Ninjatou
Hidden Knife: 8 WP, 0 W-EV, Always: Transparent, (+1 SP removed)
Short Edge: 9 WP, 5 W-EV, 50% Add: Oil
Ninja Edge: 10 WP, 10 W-EV, 50% Add: Don't Move
Spell Edge: 11 WP, 5 W-EV, 100% Cast: Spell Absorb
Sasuke Knife: 11 WP, 10 W-EV, Fire Elemental, Strengthen Earth, 2-Swordable (+1 SP removed)
Naruto Koga Knife: 11 WP, 10 W-EV, Earth Elemental, Strengthen Fire, 2-Swordable
Orochimaru Fang: 10 WP, 0 W-EV, 50% Add: Blind, 2-Swordable

Swords
Phoenix Blade: 16 WP, 25 W-EV, Add Immune: Critical
Parry Edge: 9 WP, 25 W-EV

Knight Swords
Defender: 16 WP, 40 W-EV, Immune: Don't Act
Save the Queen: 15 WP, 10 W-EV, Always: Protect
Ragnarok: 15 WP, 10 W-EV, Always: Shell

Axes
Battle Axe: 9 WP, 25 W-EV, 33% Decapitate (Damage: 50% of max HP)
Giant Axe: 10 WP, 25 W-EV, Strengthen: Earth, Wind, Water

Staves
White Staff: 7 WP, 10 W-EV, Holy Elemental, 50% Cast: Dia
Healing Eldritch Staff: 12 WP, 10 W-EV, +1 SP, Heals on hit, Strengthen: Dark
Rainbow Staff: 10 WP, 10 W-EV, Immune: Oil
Gold Staff: 8 WP, 20 W-EV, 100% Cancel: Positive Statii

Guns
Blaze Gun: 14 WP, 0 W-EV, 6 Range, Cast: Nether Fire
Glacier Gun: 12 WP, 0 W-EV, 6 Range, Cast: Nether Ice
Blast Gun: 11 WP, 0 W-EV, 6 Range, Cast: Nether Bolt
Stone Gun: 12 WP, 0 W-EV, 5 Range, -1 SP (Init: Petrify removed)

Crossbows
Silencer: 12 WP, 0 W-EV, 4 Range, 50% Add: Silence

Longbows
Long Bow: 14 WP, 10 W-EV, 6 Range, +1 Move

Spears
Spear: 12 WP, 5 W-EV, +1 SP, Ice Element, 50% Cast: Ice Bracelet (Damage: MA*8, Ice Element)
Mythril Spear: 12 WP, 5 W-EV, +1 SP, Fire Element, 50% Cast: Fire Bracelet (Damage: MA*8, Fire Element)
Spear: 12 WP, 5 W-EV, +1 SP, Lightning Element, 50% Cast: Thunder Bracelet (Damage: MA*8, Lightning Element)
Holy Lance: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, +1 SP, 50% Cast: Holy Bracelet (Damage: MA*8, Holy Element)

Harps
Bloody Strings: 10 WP, 5 W-EV, 3 Range, Absorbs HP

spoiler: Armour

Helmets
Cross Helmet: 120 HP, 50 MP
Grand Helmet: 150 HP

Armour
Maximilian: 160 HP

Hats
Twist Headband: 70 HP, +2 PA
Holy Miter: 70 HP, +2 MA
Black Hood: 110 HP, 30 MP
Golden Hairpin: 70 HP, 50 MP, Strengthen: Holy, Dark (+1 MA removed)

Headbands
Focus Band: 60 HP, 60 MP, Immune: Undead, Charm, Innocent, Faith
Choice Band: 40 HP, 40 MP, Immune: Dead, Frog, Petrify, Berserk, Sleep, Death Sentence
Chakra Band: 20 HP, 20 MP, Immune: Poison, Silence, Blind, Slow, Stop, Don't Act, Don't Move, Oil

Clothing
Brigandine: 120 HP, 20 MP
Santa Outfit: 100 HP, 10 MP, Absorb: Ice, Wind
Black Costume: 100 HP, 10 MP, Absorb: Fire, Dark
Rubber Costume: 100 HP, 10 MP Absorb: Lightning, Water
Earth Clothes: 90 HP, 20 MP, Absorb: Earth, Strengthen: Earth
Secret Clothes: 70 HP, +1 SP

Robes
Silk Robe: 110 HP, 50 MP

spoiler: Shields

Crystal Shield: 20 P-EV, 20 M-EV, Immune: Oil

spoiler: Accessories

Power Wrist: 30 P-EV, +1 PA
Genji Gauntlet: 30 M-EV, +1 MA
Sprint Shoes: +1 SP, Immune: Slow
Jade Armlet: Absorb: Water, Immune: Slow, Stop, Petrify
Defense Ring: Null: Ice, Immune: Dead, Death Sentence, Silence, Berserk, Sleep
Defense Armlet: Null: Fire, Immune: Poison, Blind, Don't Move, Don't Act
Cursed Ring: +1 PA, +1 MA, Weak: Fire, Null: Holy, Absorb: Dark, Immune: Crystal, Always: Undead (+1 SP removed)

spoiler: Skills

Skills not listed are not changed.

Squire
Heal: 1 Range, 0 AoE, 2 Vert, 0 CT, 0 MP, Cancel: Stop, Blind, Silence, Poison, Charm, Oil, 150 JP
Yell: 3 Range, 0 AoE, 3 Vert, 0 CT, 8 MP, 100% Add: Haste, 100 JP
Wish: 3 Range, 0 AoE, 3 Vert, 0 CT, 0 MP, Heal_(5%), Hit_(PA+70)%, Cancel: Dead, 200 JP
Ultima: 5 Range, 1 AoE, 3 Vert, 4 CT, 16 MP, Dmg_(MA*9), 300 JP
Defend: Given to Chemist
Equip Clothes: Given to Monk

Chemist
Auto Potion: Decrease HP healed from 80 to 70
Maintenance: Change to a movement ability, 0 JP
Defend: Received from Squire

Paladin
Consecration: 1 Range, 0 AoE, 3 Vert, 0 CT, 0 MP, Hit_(SP+70), Undead targets only, Add: Dead, 250 JP
Reraise: 3 Range, 0 AoE, 1 CT, 16 MP, 100% Add: Reraise, 100 JP
Equip Armor: 350 JP
Move -1: Given to Mediator

Archer
Leg Aim: Wpn Range, 0 AoE, Wpn Vert, 0 CT, 0 MP, Hit_(SP+55), Add: Don't Move, 100 JP
Seal Evil: Wpn Range, 0 AoE, Wpn Vert, 0 CT, 0 MP, Hit_(SP+60), Undead targets only, Add: Petrify, 150 JP
Hawk's Eye: Wpn Range, 0 AoE, Wpn Vert, 3 CT, 12 MP, Dmg_(SP*WP), 100% Add: Poison, Oil, 200 JP
Execute: Wpn Range, 0 AoE, Wpn Vert, 0 CT, 0 MP, Dmg_(40)%, Hit_F(MA+255), Critical targets only, 150 JP

Monk
Equip Clothes: Received from Squire

Priest
Cure: 5 Range, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 0 CT, 10 MP, Heal_F(MA*7), 100 JP
Cure 3: 5 Range, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 5 CT, 16 MP, Heal_F(MA*15), 150 JP
Cure 4: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 3 Vert, 3 CT, 16 MP, Heal_F(MA*16), 200 JP
Regen: 4 Range, 2 AoE, 3 Vert, 1 CT, 8 MP, Hit_F(MA+100), Add: Regen, 50 JP
Protect: 4 Range, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 1 CT, 6 MP, Hit_F(MA+80), Add: Protect, 50 JP
Shell: 4 Range, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 1 CT, 6 MP, Hit_F(MA+80), Add: Shell, 50 JP
Wall: 4 Range, 0 AoE, 0 CT, 35 MP, 100% Add: Protect, Shell, 200 JP

Wizard
Frog: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 5 CT, 18 MP, Hit_F(MA+65), Add: Frog, 150 JP
Death: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 6 CT, 24 MP, Dmg_(100)%, Hit_F(MA+50), Add: Dead, 150 JP
Flare: 6 Range, 0 AoE, 7 CT, 40 MP, Dmg_F(MA*18), Unevadable

Time Mage
Haste: 4 Range, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 2 CT, 12 MP, Hit_F(MA+70), Add: Haste, 100 JP
Haste 2: Hit_F(MA+100), 250 JP
Slow: 4 Range, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 2 CT, 12 MP, Hit_F(MA+70), Add: Slow, 100 JP
Slow 2: 4 Range, 2 AoE, 3 Vert, 4 CT, 22 MP, Hit_F(MA+90), Add: Slow, 300 JP
Sinkhole: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 2 CT, 12 MP, Dmg_(25)%, Hit_F(MA+75), Cancel: Charging, Performing, 200 JP
Comet: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 1 CT, 8 MP, Dmg_(100),100 JP
Balance: Given to Oracle
Demi: 5 Range, 2 AoE, 1 Vert, 2 CT, 12 MP, Dmg_(33)%, Hit_F(MA+85), Dark element, 200 JP
Critical Quick: 200 JP
Half of MP: Received from Summoner

Summoner
Half of MP: Given to Time Mage
Titan: 4 Range, 2 AoE, 3 Vert, 5 CT, 35 MP, Dmg_F(MA*10), Earth element, Ignores M-EV, 250 JP
Bahamut: 4 Range, 2 AoE, 3 Vert, 6 CT, 40 MP, Dmg_F(MA*12), 300 JP

Thief
Bad Tough Luck: 1 Range, 0 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 6 MP, 33% Add: Death Sentence, Blind, Silence, Stop, Don't Move, Don't Act
Heretic: Remove from the game
Quickening: Remove from the game

Mediator
Persuade: 3 Range, 0 AoE, 3 Vert, 0 CT, 0 MP, Hit_(MA+45), Add: Stop, 300 JP
Solution: 3 Range, 0 AoE, 3 Vert, 0 CT, 0 MP, Hit_(MA+60), Add: Innocent
Move -1: Received from Paladin

Oracle
Beguile: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 4 CT, 16 MP, Hit_F(MA+45), Add: Charm, 100 JP
Dispel Magic: 5 Range, 1 AoE, 2 CT, 20 MP, Hit_F(MA+80), Cancel: Float, Reraise, Regen, Protect, Shell, Haste, Faith, Innocent, Reflect, 200 JP
Paralyze: 5 Range, 1 AoE, 0 Vert, 3 CT, 20 MP, Hit_F(MA+60), Add: Don't Act, 150 JP
Balance: Received from Time Mage

Geomancer
Counter Flood: 300 JP

Lancer
Ignore Height: 150 JP

Samurai
Asura: No longer ignores allies
Bizen Boat: M-EV now applies

Ninja
Tsumazuku: Remove from the game
Kagesougi: Wpn Range, 0 AoE, Wpn Vert, 0 CT, 8 MP, Dmg_B(PA*WP), 100% Random Add: Blind, Silence, Poison, Don't Move (Add: Don't Act removed)
Meiton: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 0 CT, 11 MP, Dmg_UF(PA*9), Dark Element, M-EVable, Reflectable, Not counterable
Fuuton: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 0 CT, 16 MP Dmg_UF(PA*10), Wind Element, M-EVable, Reflectable, Counterable
Suiton: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 0 CT, 10 MP, Dmg_UF(PA*8), Water Element, Unevadable, Unreflectable, Counterable
Kibaku Fuda: 4 Range, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 0 CT, 12 MP, Dmg_B(SP*WP), Cancel: Haste, Regen, M-EVable, Unreflectable, Counterable, 300 JP
Mushin: Self-targeting, 0 CT, 5 MP, Add: Innocent, 50 JP
Misogi: Self-targeting, 0 CT, 5 MP, Cancel: Poison, Blind, Silence, Slow, Don't Move, Oil, Faith, 50 JP
Speed +1: Movement ability, +1 SP, 400 JP

Scholar/Druid
FFMaster's changes are pending.
Tornado: 5 Range, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 2 CT, 30 MP, Dmg_F(MA*9), Wind Element, 250 JP
Quake: 5 Range, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 2 CT, 30 MP, Dmg_F(MA*9), Earth Element, 250 JP

Bard
Last Song: 0 Range, 255 AoE, 255 Vert, 10 CT, 5 MP, Hit_(40)%, Add: Quick, 200 JP
Brave UP: 100 JP

Dancer
Last Dance: 0 Range, 255 AoE, 255 Vert, 10 CT, 5 MP, Hit_(40)%, 00 CT, 200 JP
Brave UP: 100 JP

spoiler: Stats

Time Mage
(M) 113 HP, 77 MP, 10 SP, 4 PA, 7 MA, 3 Move, 3 Jump, 5 C-EV
(F) 106 HP, 82 MP, 10 SP, 3 PA, 9 MA, 3 Move, 3 Jump, 5 C-EV

Summoner
(M) 103 HP, ~130 MP, 8 SP, 3 PA, 9 MA, 3 Move, 3 Jump, 5 C-EV
(F) 96 HP, ~140 MP, 8 SP, 2 PA, 11 MA, 3 Move, 3 Jump, 5 C-EV

Thief
(M) 144 HP, 24 MP, 10 SP, 9 PA, 3 MA, 4 Move, 4 Jump, 20 C-EV
(F) 135 HP, 25 MP, 10 SP, 7 PA, 4 MA, 4 Move, 4 Jump, 20 C-EV

spoiler: Status Effects

Blind: Increase CT from 0 to 48
Silence: Increase CT from 0 to 48
Berserk: Increase CT from 0 to 48

spoiler: Weapons

Wasn't slasher going to be Dual Weildable?  As it stands straight 12 WP makes it inferior to the other axes, even with Battle Axe getting a nerf to Decapitation proc.

I'm sad that Sasuke Knife will be losing its +1speed.  Ninja Edge and Spell Edge are getting the buffs it looks like they were supposed to have.

Yay Longbow might get +1 Move.  I have nothing to say about spears because the only one I ever use is Javalin


No changes to Staves due to mass divisions on what to actually do with them.    

spoiler: Armour

I think Golden Hairpin should go down 10 HP-20 HP more than what's in here, but I certainly won't push it.

Headbands-  The HP being given seems a bit low considering that Monks are actually quite squishy. 

spoiler: Accessories

Nothing really to add except that I'm not sorry to see the +1 speed to Cursed Ring gone.  After Doku showed how strong auto-revival is during the single class tournament the use has become pretty pervasive.  It's reaching it's logical conclusion now with 15 speed units being created with+Move HP+Regen

I like the Spring Shoes Immune to slow.  It's very thematic and flavorful.  I also like the boosts to Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlet.  Those changes+Nurse/Abandon might make them usable.  Although I would have made them at 40 evasion because they needed a MAJOR BOOST but I won't argue the point

spoiler: Skills AKA the big one

With Maintenance moved to MOVEMENT I think it should have a JP cost because now it's much more usable.

I know I said it in a rant but I really do think Consecrate and Seal Evil should hit at 100% or nearly that much.  Even with the change to Cursed Ring.  Being undead really needs to be punished.

Was the range on the cure series of spells always 5?  I never noticed.

I'm most saddened that Beguile isn't getting it's proc rate increased.  I really think it's necessary even with the other buffs.  Charm isn't the devastating status it used to be.

I like the buffs Time Mage and Summoner are getting getting to their skills.

Quickening is dead.  Thanks to the tireless campaigning of an increasing number of people it became apparent that it needed to die as a skill.  It really was a community effort because there were so many folks (myself included) who didn't believe it needed to die at first.

Counter Flood increased to 300?!?

I don't know if it was missed or forgotten but no changes to Refute???  Not even to eliminate cancelling performing?

Interesting changes to Last Dance.  I'm going to have to build a Last Dance team.

Asura now ignores allies, but what about Heaven's Cloud? 

EDIT: Fixed Formatting because that post looked like crap.

[Dokurider]

If (and it needs to be done absolutely) Berserk loses it's infinite duration, then Salty Rage and Genji Helmet needs to become Always: Berserk with a possible Blind Immunity.

Would it be a problem to change Death's Formula to a Nether Formula? That way, it can be used to bust up tanks.

Also let's not forget about the monk overall. They are very good and needed.

In addition to Balance being changed to Yin Yang Magic, it should also gain additional +CT.

FFM was talking about creating the -1 Speed attribute some time ago. If it can be done, then this would be a pretty decent drawback for Stone Gun.

Cursed Ring should also lose Null: Holy, because forcing Holy weapon users to pack Consecrate is a waste. While this isn't too problematic for Excalibur and Silver Bow, Holy Spear has to resort to Jump or their Secondaries to attack Cursed Units.

Speaking of Holy Spear, that still needs a better (read: properly working) proc. We could just give it Cyclops as a proc.

Sucks we still don't have a new shield idea that everyone agrees on. All I know is that Crystal Shield blows.

Lancers need Robes back. Period.

I think the Ultimus Bow (and the Mythril Bow too) could use a single WP point drop so that not only are the other bows a little more viable, but so can the crossbows.

In any case, here's to hoping that Koga and Sasuke Knife see use come the next version.

[Gaignun]

Wasn't slasher going to be Dual Weildable?  As it stands straight 12 WP makes it inferior to the other axes, even with Battle Axe getting a nerf to Decapitation proc.

I don't know if it was missed or forgotten but no changes to Refute???  Not even to eliminate cancelling performing?

Also let's not forget about the monk overall. They are very good and needed.

Yeah.  Some changes were inevitably missed.  I'll add them later.

I think Golden Hairpin should go down 10 HP-20 HP more than what's in here, but I certainly won't push it.

Other hats are getting buffed, so Golden Hairpin is becoming less attractive by comparison.

Headbands-  The HP being given seems a bit low considering that Monks are actually quite squishy.

Indeed.  I believe I copied these changes from one of Raven's posts months ago.  Personally, I have nothing to add about them.

I like the Spring Shoes Immune to slow.  It's very thematic and flavorful.

I think so, too.  However, I believe we do not have the attribute space for it at present.  I added it anyway in case we decide to merge or eliminate attributes in the near future.

I also like the boosts to Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlet.

Raven actually proposed a redesign for Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlet, but I was uncertain of its acceptance, so I left it out.

Counter Flood increased to 300?!?

This is one of my personal changes.  Counter Flood is actually really good: it procs off of just about everything and at any range, deals AoE damage at 100% accuracy, and has the chance of inflicting status ailments.  It is at least as good as Auto Potion and Damage Split, which also cost 300 JP.

With Maintenance moved to MOVEMENT I think it should have a JP cost because now it's much more usable.

Maintenance will be the only movement ability that does absolutely nothing against all but two skill types (Breaks and Steal Accessory).   It'll be like Jump +1: it's only equipped when no other movement ability can be afforded.  That said, a low (50~100) JP cost might not be too bad.

Asura now ignores allies, but what about Heaven's Cloud?

Discussion about Heaven's Cloud was pretty recent, right?  Did we come to an agreement about it?

If (and it needs to be done absolutely) Berserk loses it's infinite duration, then Salty Rage and Genji Helmet needs to become Always: Berserk with a possible Blind Immunity.

That's a logical conclusion.  I will update the list accordingly.

Would it be a problem to change Death's Formula to a Nether Formula? That way, it can be used to bust up tanks.

I can't say, myself.  One 1.39 combination that is on my mind is a Paladin with a protect/shell knightsword and a shell/protect perfume for total defense.  This combination is not entirely broken because the Paladin will have very little P-EV and no M-EV.  In this case, Death might serve a purpose.  Assuming the Paladin has 70 Brave for melee damage, switching Death to a nether formula would preclude this application.  It's easier to have 70 Brave than 40 Faith, after all.

Then again, 40-40 units are obnoxious, so I'm on the fence.

Sucks we still don't have a new shield idea that everyone agrees on. All I know is that Crystal Shield blows.

I am partial to simply handing over Crystal Shield's "Immune: Oil" to Escutcheon II, then killing off Crystal Shield altogether.

Lancers need Robes back. Period.

I agree!