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Humanoid Classes/Abilities in ASMd  (Read 29514 times)
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3030]
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  • [April 15, 2010, 04:53:56 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2010, 04:53:56 AM »
Quote from: "The Damned"
Charge actually works with Guns, apparently. At least in 1.3. I'm not sure why....

That's because Charge increases one of the values in the damage formula (Once instance of PA for PA formulas, once instance of MA for MA formulas, one instance of WP for Gun formulas) by a K value equal to the +X that appears in the Charge skill.  So, if you were to Charge +20 a 6 WP gun, the damage formula is (6+20)*6 or 26*6, both of which come out to quite a bit of damage.

I noted it as "a Charge formula that DOESN'T work on Guns" because he'd likely have to use the Swordskill formula to make it work, which is always PA*WP, and use the Y (IIRC) value to increase the PA number by whatever he wants the attack to boost by, making it useless with Guns and subpar with Poles, though potentially *better* on anything using the ((PA+SP)/2) * WP formula (aka, Ninja Swords, Daggers, Vanilla/1.3 Bows and Crossbows, though I think Philsov changed the Crossbow/Bow formula in ASM'd).
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [April 15, 2010, 05:03:03 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2010, 05:03:03 AM »
I meant, I'm not "sure why" from a rational perspective, not that I'm not sure of the formula. (Although, for some reason, I don't remember Charge working with Guns in vanilla, but that's probably I never really used Guns in vanilla.)

Sorry for the vagueness.

Also, I had thought you meant that Guns wouldn't work with the Charge formula at all, not that they would just be sub-par (which they should be).

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"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3030]
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  • [April 16, 2010, 06:47:55 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2010, 06:47:55 AM »
Quote from: "The Damned"
Sorry for the vagueness.

Also, I had thought you meant that Guns wouldn't work with the Charge formula at all, not that they would just be sub-par (which they should be).

Guns work with the Vanilla Charge Formula just as well as all other weapons do, honestly.  It's just their lower WP causes the ending damage to generally be lower, which is no different from any low WP weapon really.  Trying to make a "fake" Charge formula usually results in them being excluded entirely or being affected differently from how vanilla Charge affects them, which is what I was saying.  Then again, if Formula 2D is used as a "fake" Charge formula, it would override the Gun's damage formula and make it (PA+X)*WP in accordance with said 2D formula, wouldn't it?  Nifty.

Anywho, made minor edit to proposed abilities I made before because Impede was too weak.
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  • [April 16, 2010, 07:49:32 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2010, 07:49:32 AM »
Do you think that Drain Touch and Cat Kick would be good additions to Blue Mage?
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [April 16, 2010, 06:02:39 PM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2010, 06:02:39 PM »
Quote
Now that you are here, I must ask (partially because ASM'd intends to use it as well): Have you gotten Float to take extra damage against Wind?

Honestly all I cared about was oil working properly -- float was just something that came with the package.  If float still acts normal, it's a little more desired, really, as it keeps float as a friendly buff instead of mixed bag possible debuff thing.

Quote
though I think Philsov changed the Crossbow/Bow formula in ASM'd

Nope.  Xbows are still PA*WP and longbows are [(PA + Sp)/2] * WP.  However, since speed isn't scaling nearly as much as normal, and while the WP on longbows and ninja swords have increased, what Heavy Shot does enable is a single, stronger blow with a charge time -- which functions very much in practice to an old Charge ability.  I may run into a hiccup with the new WPs where using the attack command is too weak but I can't boost WP because then Heavy Blow enters the picture and screws everything up, but I'll need to gain some levels and play through a bit before taking any major action.

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Shatter would be better suited for Knights than Cleave, since it flows well with their whole idea of debuffing

Possibly.  Looks like Squire can adopt Cleave, anyways.

As for what we can throw at the wizard... perhaps an "expire" type ability?  Deals 100% HP damage to a unit with death sentence?  

Quote
Camouflage (Altered. I'd say allow it to heal enough HP to remove a unit from Critical, but not enough to make it equal or superior to other healing skills.)

No, self transparent for a 100% shot next round is cool >_>

Quote
Execute (Can it be altered to 100% Add: Dead to Critical Unit?)

Nope.  The status checker formulas (Raise, Death, Revive) all deal/heal % health, not add status.  I'm open to be proven wrong, however.

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Aim (My only worry here is that pure SP*WP damage doesn't scale anywhere near how it does vs PA*WP damage, but 100% hitting is a far better thing in ASM'd, so...)

Thats the exact point.  Less damage but 100%.

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Poison Bomb (Renamed Poison Volley)

Should spare me some animation woes.

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Oil Flashbang (Oil + light damage)
Flame Strike (Fire Elemental weapon damage)
Focus Blow (CT, weapon range attack that deals a noticeable amount of extra damage to the enemy. Similar to a charge skill that doesn't work with Guns.)
Impede (Light damage + Slow, moderate MP cost to compensate)

the problem with "light damage" is there aren't any formulas that allow for weapon scaling.... I can either do PA*WP, SP*WP (no status with this one, btw), PA*Y or MA*Y.  See above with heavy blow and damage scaling; it is almost literally Crush Punch already -- I don't want to make Heavier Blow.

Quote
Do you think that Drain Touch and Cat Kick would be good additions to Blue Mage?

They're already getting drain touch :), but cat kick (vanilla version) scales horribly and cat kick (1.3) I feel impedes the new Oracle ability Quell -- which is the same thing, minus damage but at least at range.  I am however considering Aqua Soul...

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Timbo [Posts: 547]
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  • [April 16, 2010, 06:20:02 PM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2010, 06:20:02 PM »
I like Aqua Soul and Bad Breath for the Blue Mage.  Bad Breath is one of the most iconic blue mage spells.
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [April 16, 2010, 06:25:18 PM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2010, 06:25:18 PM »
no way are humans getting access to bad breath.

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  • [April 16, 2010, 06:52:47 PM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2010, 06:52:47 PM »
Quote from: "philsov"
no way are humans getting access to bad breath.
I lol'ed

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    RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3030]
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    • [April 16, 2010, 06:53:58 PM]
    Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
    « Reply #28 on: April 16, 2010, 06:53:58 PM »
    Quote from: "philsov"
    As for what we can throw at the wizard... perhaps an "expire" type ability?  Deals 100% HP damage to a unit with death sentence?

    That could be very nice.  

    Quote from: "philsov"
    No, self transparent for a 100% shot next round is cool >_>

    It is, I just don't see it scaling to end game as well as other abilities.

    Quote from: "philsov"
    Nope.  The status checker formulas (Raise, Death, Revive) all deal/heal % health, not add status.  I'm open to be proven wrong, however.

    Ouch.

    Quote from: "philsov"
    the problem with "light damage" is there aren't any formulas that allow for weapon scaling.... I can either do PA*WP, SP*WP (no status with this one, btw), PA*Y or MA*Y.  See above with heavy blow and damage scaling; it is almost literally Crush Punch already -- I don't want to make Heavier Blow.

    I don't think the weapon scaling means much for those moves I said "light damage" for besides Impede - and honestly I think that move not involving WP probably is for the better.

    Also, where is this "Heavy Blow" you speak of?  You make me feel like I put my back to a Goblin and somehow got my eyes gouged out from the back of my head.  D:

    Quote from: "philsov"
    They're already getting drain touch :D

    ...Damn this background not allowing me to inb4 with invisitext.

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    I like Aqua Soul and Bad Breath for the Blue Mage. Bad Breath is one of the most iconic blue mage spells.

    Bad Breath is sobroken though.  Anyone who watched my Beastmaster stream of Chapter 2 in 1.3 can tell you I pretty much just screamed "BLARGH" and left a nice forest of statues and frogs all the way to Queklain without a single hiccup once I figured out how good BLARGHing at things was.

    Though this does raise another important question...

    Quote from: "philsov"
    no way are humans getting access to bad breath.

    They had mints in Ivalice, then?
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    The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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    • [April 16, 2010, 07:11:29 PM]
    Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
    « Reply #29 on: April 16, 2010, 07:11:29 PM »
    Self-Destruct is also an iconic Blue Mage ability, but there's no way in Hell any sensible person that makes a Blue Mage is letting them get that (unless reviving them is made EXTREMELY difficult or something, and even then...).

    Hell, at least Bad Breath can be weakened...by toothpaste.

    *is bricked*

    Quote from: "philsov"
    As for what we can throw at the wizard... perhaps an "expire" type ability?  Deals 100% HP damage to a unit with death sentence?

    Sounds more like a Time Mage ability, really.

    (One that I may end up borrowing since Death Sentence...kind of sucks.)

    "Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

    "Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

    "Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
    Timbo [Posts: 547]
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    • [April 16, 2010, 08:01:52 PM]
    Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
    « Reply #30 on: April 16, 2010, 08:01:52 PM »
    Quote from: "The Damned"
    Self-Destruct is also an iconic Blue Mage ability, but there's no way in Hell any sensible person that makes a Blue Mage is letting them get that (unless reviving them is made EXTREMELY difficult or something, and even then...).

    Hell, at least Bad Breath can be weakened...by toothpaste.

    *is bricked*

    Quote from: "philsov"
    As for what we can throw at the wizard... perhaps an "expire" type ability?  Deals 100% HP damage to a unit with death sentence?

    Sounds more like a Time Mage ability, really.

    (One that I may end up borrowing since Death Sentence...kind of sucks.)

    I really like this idea, makes DS far more worthwhile.  While it does sound like a Time Mage ability, it doesn't really work on the Time Mage unless either they have a way to inflict DS or more jobs have a way to inflict DS.

    It reminds me of a faustian bargain?  Which gives me another idea for a power.  How about something that gives you Haste, Shell, Protect, and Regen, and Death Sentence?  Its three rounds of Booyah, before an untimely death, which also cancels all of the above effects.  Does Re Raise stack with or Cancel Death Sentence, because, if so, this power is screwed.
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    philsov [Posts: 4598]
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    • [April 16, 2010, 08:05:14 PM]
    Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
    « Reply #31 on: April 16, 2010, 08:05:14 PM »
    reraise cancels DS, sadly.  

    I had thought of a few abilities like that, but I'm concerned about simply wearing status ignoring gear and just ramping up on the self buffs (like self protect/shell/slow, with cancel:slow gear)

    Quote
    or more jobs have a way to inflict DS.

    Currently we've got monks for Condemn (secret fist) and counter condemn, but I guess we can give that to wizard?  Rocking both Death and Death Sentence seems like a complete package, albeit a kind of boring one.

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    The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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    • [April 16, 2010, 08:14:39 PM]
    Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
    « Reply #32 on: April 16, 2010, 08:14:39 PM »
    It could serve more of a purpose, now, though considering that Death Sentence would Ignore Dead with that new ASM, so Wizards could still cast Doom (though, again, that seems more like a Time Mage ability) to get past things like Judo Outfit. And of course it would probably best to test if the AI could use Expire properly since it tends to ignore Death Sentence'd people, though that status discovery formerdeathcrops found may solve that problem....

    Although, having Death, Doom AND Expire is a bit redundant, but, hey, it's up to you.

    *ponders Expire some more*

    "Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

    "Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

    "Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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    RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3030]
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    • [April 16, 2010, 10:43:00 PM]
    Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
    « Reply #33 on: April 16, 2010, 10:43:00 PM »
    If there's space, Oracle could be given a Doom-like spell even, since they mostly have Status anyway.   Heh, packaging Death Sentence onto their Sleep spell could be rather hilarious.

    Also, in this vein, I'd like to propose replacing the Warn Talk Skill with Death Sentence (possibly the Ahriman's Death Sentence for lolz, heh).  Warn is useless, it doesn't even hit 100% of the time and a Defend that doesn't come from an Item is usually very sub-par.  Most of the time, all I see this Talk Skill do is cause the computer to waste CT and have yet to see a use for it on my own end.  This would not only make for a generally better Talk Skill, but make Expire more useful for Wizard.

    I can't think of too many other classes that could take on a Death Sentence-inflicting move though.  Archer, maybe?  If the AI has issues using the moves, we can always flag the ones that cause problems to be unusable by the AI, remember, though I think the AI would realize it can auto-kill with Expire and do it.  I'd assume the Wizard's Doom spell would be 100% if it gained one, though.

    As for Reraise vs Death Sentence, you could always change their flags so that Death Sentence cancels Reraise but Reraise doesn't cancel Death Sentence if you want to mess with that kind of thing.  An ability that bestows Protect, Shell, Regen, Death Sentence wouldn't be a problem, I don't think.  I'm not as sure on giving it Haste as well because of how the AI loves spamming said Haste and would ignore the fact said ability ever bestows Death Sentence and probably kill themselves.



    EDIT:  Damn, I thought there was a yellow palette of the Dragon class monster lying around somewhere.  I was going to say to switch it with the green one used with the current Tier 1 Dragon, and make each Dragon have an affinity to proper Lightning/Ice/Fire, with Absorb/Strengthen/Weak properties to match.  :[
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    The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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    • [April 16, 2010, 10:58:53 PM]
    Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
    « Reply #34 on: April 16, 2010, 10:58:53 PM »
    Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"
    If there's space, Oracle could be given a Doom-like spell even, since they mostly have Status anyway.   Heh, packaging Death Sentence onto their Sleep spell could be rather hilarious.

    I thought CT doesn't count when the target is affected by Sleep.

    Quote
    I can't think of too many other classes that could take on a Death Sentence-inflicting move though.  Archer, maybe?  If the AI has issues using the moves, we can always flag the ones that cause problems to be unusable by the AI, remember, though I think the AI would realize it can auto-kill with Expire and do it.  I'd assume the Wizard's Doom spell would be 100% if it gained one, though.

    Death Sentence on Archer seems like it might be a good idea or, rather, make Death Sentence usable for once. I've Death Sentence on my Archer...just not by itself.

    It would definitely be a better move than just straight translating FFTA's "Doom Archer" (or Doom Arrow...or whatever), which was basically just Shock with even more range since FFTA is genius about things like that.

    Quote
    EDIT:  Damn, I thought there was a yellow palette of the Dragon class monster lying around somewhere.  I was going to say to switch it with the green one used with the current Tier 1 Dragon, and make each Dragon have an affinity to proper Lightning/Ice/Fire, with Absorb/Strengthen/Weak properties to match.  :[

    There isn't?

    Damn, this kind of screws up my DD plans....

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    "Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

    "Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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    formerdeathcorps [Posts: 1322]
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    • [April 16, 2010, 11:23:24 PM]
    Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
    « Reply #35 on: April 16, 2010, 11:23:24 PM »
    There is a yellow palette dragon, just not a portrait for it.  I'm currently using that in my patch.

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    RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3030]
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    • [April 16, 2010, 11:28:50 PM]
    Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
    « Reply #36 on: April 16, 2010, 11:28:50 PM »
    Quote from: "The Damned"
    I thought CT doesn't count when the target is affected by Sleep.

    It doesn't.  The idea was that by bundling Sleep + Death Sentence, the unit becomes an ample target for an Expire and the AI won't end up ignoring it while it ravages their team.  It also leaves a player wondering if they should wake the unit up with an attack or leave it asleep until they can heal Death Sentence (assuming they have a way to do so).

    That, and bundling it with Don't Act would be incredibly, incredibly cruel and unusual.

    Quote from: "The Damned"
    Death Sentence on Archer seems like it might be a good idea or, rather, make Death Sentence usable for once. I've Death Sentence on my Archer...just not by itself.

    Not by itself, you say?

    Quote from: "The Damned"
    It would definitely be a better move than just straight translating FFTA's "Doom Archer" (or Doom Arrow...or whatever), which was basically just Shock with even more range since FFTA is genius about things like that.

    Ah, FFTA.  I don't even own you and yet I find more and more reasons to never bother looking for you to begin with.

    Quote from: "The Damned"
    There isn't?

    Damn, this kind of screws up my DD plans....

    Apparently I was wrong.

    Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"
    There is a yellow palette dragon, just not a portrait for it. I'm currently using that in my patch.

    Houston, we need a portrait!  D:
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    The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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    • [April 17, 2010, 02:17:28 AM]
    Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
    « Reply #37 on: April 17, 2010, 02:17:28 AM »
    Where are the palettes for Dragons anyway? I need to see something....

    Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"
    It doesn't.  The idea was that by bundling Sleep + Death Sentence, the unit becomes an ample target for an Expire and the AI won't end up ignoring it while it ravages their team.  It also leaves a player wondering if they should wake the unit up with an attack or leave it asleep until they can heal Death Sentence (assuming they have a way to do so).

    Ah, I see. That would make sense.

    Quote
    That, and bundling it with Don't Act would be incredibly, incredibly cruel and unusual.

    Yes it would. You will like Templar then, but enough blatant advertising.

    Quote from: "The Damned"
    Not by itself, you say?

    Nothing special. Just Poison and Death Sentence as Aim Vitals on Archer.

    All Poison and Death Sentence is what has replaced just All Death Sentence as Inflict Status 0B on the few things that have kept Death Sentence at all--the only other thing that still has Death Sentence is Assassin Dagger since both Mediator's Death Sentence and Ahriman's Death Sentence got nuked and re-used.

    "Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

    "Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

    "Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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    RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3030]
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    • [April 17, 2010, 02:56:15 AM]
    Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
    « Reply #38 on: April 17, 2010, 02:56:15 AM »
    Quote from: "The Damned"
    Nothing special. Just Poison and Death Sentence as Aim Vitals on Archer.

    All Poison and Death Sentence is what has replaced just All Death Sentence as Inflict Status 0B on the few things that have kept Death Sentence at all--the only other thing that still has Death Sentence is Assassin Dagger since both Mediator's Death Sentence and Ahriman's Death Sentence got nuked and re-used.

    I see.

    Odd combination there, adding a move that slowly makes a unit die to one that slowly makes a unit die, especially with the AI dickery and such.  What made you do that?
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    The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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    • [April 17, 2010, 03:02:14 AM]
    Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
    « Reply #39 on: April 17, 2010, 03:02:14 AM »
    I figured that if the unit is going to get ignored, then at least it will take some damage and almost inevitably die. For the record, I'm using the ASM that causes Poison to do 1/4 of CurHP as damage, so there's still some things I need to test out obviously.

    Even if it doesn't kill them, once they get into critical, units that can't heal themselves usually flee and are thus useless since nothing (that regular PC characters will have a hold of) will be able to reach all the way across the battlefield, especially with Guns pretty much gone.

    In that instance, it's actually better than them dying since like 8 of my classes have some type of revival skill.

    (Although my latest test revealed to me that apparently the percentage skills CAN revive for 0 HP...meaning the unit just dies again at the end of its turn. Lol.)

    "Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

    "Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

    "Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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