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Humanoid Classes/Abilities in ASMd  (Read 29518 times)
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [February 20, 2011, 01:14:41 AM]
Re: Humanoid Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #120 on: February 20, 2011, 01:14:41 AM »
When something is "blanked" there's no effect to it.  With move +3, for example, I can just set it to be -3 Move and tack on any additional effect as desired.  There's a display bug with this exact ability (it'll always preview +3).
The initials do seem a bit strong, but remember these are being used over the other reaction abilities.  Waiting until after you're at below half health to have protect activate makes the whole bit less than ideal, imo.

There is no saving gilgame heart, I agree.  I can pump any manner of Alma goodness, but it would need to somehow jive with still getting cash on hit.  

Absorbed Used MP is a bit tricky.  I buffed MP Restore to trigger on any hit so it would be worth a damn, and of course in the process mades it superior to this in every way imaginable.  Giving passive MP really doesn't help in those regards.  Perhaps this one gains the silence immunity?  Which leaves Monster Talk still lacking....

Good call on Catch.

Distribute always struck me as a Zen-y type deal, where one lets stuff pass through them.  Absorb: Holy/Dark seemed to flow with this them.  Still doesn't work on self heals regretably, not can it have a 100% activate rate, and if either/both were possible there'd be no need to ALMA it, imo.

Finger Guard blocking the positive statii (that'd be... reraise and defend) is more fitting, though less powerful.  I'll probably change it to this.

HP Restore doesn't need nerfing, imo.  It has a rather small window to work, and then you've got to hope it triggers.  

Dragon Spirit on the other hand... could use a small punt.  Maybe -1 PA/MA?  Doesn't sound very fitting, but it might work.  

Damage Split can't gain Null: Evasion, regrettably.  Maybe a Speed decrease?  2 should suffice (with no HP loss)

Monster Skill/Warding - should work for a support, when compared to Def Up / MDU.  Mind, those two only drop damage by 33%, but the number of elemental versus not elemental sources is enough to jack up the protection some.  

Concentrate I'll cover in a moment.

Maintenance will be blocking stat debuffs.  (<3 Xif)  and it won't be innate on any generic class.

With any ground+lava -- they will not be innate to geomancers.  The lava innate was added when someone got the idea to put a move find item in the middle of the lava, so a character somehow had to have 2 movement abilities at the same time.  Because chemists are keeping move find item, and that's not getting anything done to it.  

Ignore Height/Fly - perhaps ignore height cancels:Wind?

Move Get JP is in the same boat as gained JP up, imo.  Only difference between the two (in vanilla) was access as it was squire vs. calc.  This patch will have it's fair share of player-leveled enemies, and while stuff like level 1 gang banging and JP sharing exploit are still possible I'd rather still prevent this aspect from occuring.  

Cannot enter water can be buffed, but I'm already at a loss for movement abilities so unless myself or someone else gets a blow of inspiration there's little point in mentioning it.  Atm monsters won't have it, namely because wet poaching is no longer a problem.

Regarding monster balancing... not really :).  I already have them set on stats, so if they're plugged with various stat modifiers I can just adjust them (meatboners lose 10/15 HPM, for example) to be where I'd still like em.

I'm not too concerned with Two Hands being outclassed.  Right now the biggest boon with two swords is the increased W.Ev and proc rate on the proccables, but I can possibly make two hands 20% reduction or something, even though it'll work out to identical or within 1 PA difference the majority of the time.

Blade Grasp and Hamedo -- I don't think 2 speed is enough.  With hamedo one negates an enemy attack AND counters (and it works against monsters, now) -- which is basically two actions in a reaction.  One action to heal oneself and then another to attack.  BG is one action of full evasion/self curing, but it's still a major AT imbalance. However, I can't very well set their SPM to -100% because then they'll never get a turn and sit on the back of the field wishing they were a statue in the middle of the field.  Initial: bad status won't mean much if you have a higher speed cleanser.  Always: blind and silence won't be enough either because then they can still be itembots.  Damage splitters at least need to wait until after they're hit to activate, but the pre-emptive nature of these two makes me a sad panda.

Secret Hunt boosting Dark is an idea.  I was thinking of something that'd boost Thieves, somehow.  Not that Str:Dark does that, but it'll have a certain niche that wasn't present before.  At the very least, there will be more monsters in storyline battles so it will still be useful sometimes for a real battle.

+1 Speed / -1 Move is a great idea for a movement ability.  But what in the world can it be named?

~

Concentrate is fine, imo.  Yes, even in this patch where everyone has innate weapon guard and 4-way class evasion.  The average unit will have between 10 and 30 evasion unless they're rocking a mantle and/or shield.  Unless all the units on the field have 50% or greater evasion, two swords/hands will still be better average damage output -- dealing 150% damage 75% of the time is better than doing 100% damage 100% of the time... usually.  IE, concentrate is a ~25% damage boost, while attack up is 33% and 2S/2H is 50%, but concentrate still has a place for it's execution abilities while attack up has synergy with many PA-based abilities.  Martial Arts isn't much different, either, with a 50% boost but only when barehanded (ie, no weapon evasion). The biggest problem with martial arts is that it is/was innate to Monks and thus can stack with attack up or other supports for fun twinkage.   And there's no code to reduce concentrate's effectiveness atm.

~

Poles are the only weapon class I'm concerned about with two hands synergy, and I don't want it to also do -25% MA just because of that.  Nor do I want them to no longer be 2h-able.  Hm.  Anyways, you've still got plenty of time, as I'm still banging my head on animations and effects so this is something we can stew on.  
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 01:19:39 AM by philsov »
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [February 20, 2011, 02:30:07 AM]
Re: Humanoid Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #121 on: February 20, 2011, 02:30:07 AM »
(Ugh, I promised myself that I'd do something "special" for my 1000th post, so this will probably be my last post for a week. I'll try to make it good.)

  • I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about Concentrate, especially since we're doing such different things. I mean, obviously, I still think it's a problem in your patch (or any), but if it is as such, as with the other thing (that I forget about at the moment), I'm sure it will eventually prove itself as such.
  • I suppose so on the Initial stuff. Initial Regen just...bugs me for some reason, but I think I'm going off my patch where Regen status has been buffed beyond HP gain.
  • Well, technically, in sticking with related abilities with regards to Gilgame Heart, you could give it Indra's Grace abilities what with magnetism and gold being so conductive of electricity and everything. Then again, I was thinking you could also probably just make an Absorb and Strengthen ability for at least all of Black Mages elements--I mean, you could pretty easily tack on Strengthen Fire to Move on Lava, especially given how often rainstorms happen. Of course, it would be weird for one of the abilities to be a Reaction and the other (two) to be Movement. So...yeah, it seems behind saving (at present).
  • Immune: Silence on Absorb Used MP seems like it would be good. I'm rather unsure about Monster Talk, especially since Mediators HAVE to have it Innately, so it's not like it can be anything "great" even though it needs it.... Actually, given that I gave it to my Mediators, would giving Monster Talk innate immunity to Charm be a bit much?
  • I suppose I see where you're going with Distribute, though in that case I don't see why it's not on Oracle then, especially since Oracle's have Life Drain to stay at full-life while being offensive.
  • I actually think that Dragon Spirit would be the one that can stand to lose Speed so that the people that refuse to die don't revive so damn quickly/as much overall. Losing speed would still go with the theme of preserving life since it would slow down crystallization/treasure boxing as well as going with the draconic theme of Ivalican Dragons being lumbering, flightless beasts.
  • Damage Split seems like it would need to lose HP and maybe be immune to everything MBarrier can do outside of Haste.
  • Good to hear that about Maintenance and the Geomancer movements.
  • Ignore Height having Cancel: Wind would probably be good...if you have/had that many Wind attacks. Didn't you not add any beyond what's already there? IIRC, off the top of my head, there are only four Wind attacks in the entire game originally: Kamaitachi, Gusty Wind, Wind Soul, Tornado. Given that generics have access to only two of those and there's only two pieces of equipment--Air Knife and Windslash Bow--still that even inflict Wind damage...yeah. Fly honestly seems like it needs to have -1 Move to not completely outclass Ignore Height, even with Cancel: Wind.
  • Wet poaching? I'm not sure what you mean.
  • Name the +1 Speed/-1 Move "Stalk" or something like that.
  • While it's problematic, I don't see why you're concerned about Two-Handed Poles. While I can't see what classes you have the equip Poles, I'm assuming at most that there's only two other classes tops besides Oracle that can even Equip Poles innately and thus equip Two Hands.


Well that was lackluster.... Eh, maybe I'll think of something better within that coming week.

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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Dokurider [Posts: 2807]
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  • [February 20, 2011, 02:51:23 AM]
Re: Humanoid Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #122 on: February 20, 2011, 02:51:23 AM »
Don't worry too much about Hamedo/BG too much. It was just a half hearted shot at balancing. We'll live without those reactions.

As for +1 Speed/-1 Move, I was imagining a samurai, moving slowly but surely. His katana comes out in flash and is gone just as fast. Maybe that'll help.  
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Dokurider [Posts: 2807]
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  • [February 22, 2011, 10:04:48 PM]
Re: Humanoid Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #123 on: February 22, 2011, 10:04:48 PM »
How about a support/reaction that leaves you at 0 Faith?
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [February 22, 2011, 10:14:12 PM]
Re: Humanoid Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #124 on: February 22, 2011, 10:14:12 PM »
You mean like a "Robotic" support? It's an interesting idea (if basically just a glorified Auto-Innocent), but it kind of...utterly fucks over faith-based magic, which is hard enough to balance as it is. It's not like you lose anything from using it, either, what with Item already being the premiere revival skill and still having quite a bit of range. It's not like there's anything to punish you for either outside of Un-Truth, which is found on...one character, who is eventually on your side.

I'm not philsov, but it seems like quite the bad idea, at least given how faith-based magic is at present.

Speaking of lowish Brave or Faith, though, now I wonder if there's a way that you could make a Support or even a Reaction that benefits from you having lower rather than higher Brave. Hmmm....

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
Scearcely [Posts: 51]
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  • [February 23, 2011, 02:05:31 AM]
Re: Humanoid Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #125 on: February 23, 2011, 02:05:31 AM »
Quote
Speaking of lowish Brave or Faith, though, now I wonder if there's a way that you could make a Support or even a Reaction that benefits from you having lower rather than higher Brave. Hmmm....

yeah I brought up a similar idea on another patch(mando i think) of splitting reactions into two groups, defensive(auto-potion/regenerator/dragon spirit/etc) and offensive(counter/hamedo/counter flood/etc) and making the defensive 100-br for an activation rate.

never did hear whether that was even possible, but if it is I stand by it being a great idea.

as for innocent from a reaction, probably not a good idea.  though if you can find a way around it being a post-battle change as well, faith down(-5 or so) on magic hit actually wouldn't be that bad.
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [February 23, 2011, 04:56:35 AM]
Re: Humanoid Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #126 on: February 23, 2011, 04:56:35 AM »
I just noticed something (a couple of hours ago): Does Quell actually cancel only Charging and not Performing as well? Is this intentional?

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [February 23, 2011, 05:12:03 PM]
Re: Humanoid Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #127 on: February 23, 2011, 05:12:03 PM »
Quote
would giving Monster Talk innate immunity to Charm be a bit much?

In terms of balance, not really.  But just in general it feels more forced than the others.  Still something to consider.

Quote
I actually think that Dragon Spirit would be the one that can stand to lose Speed

I think that might be a bit much.  But perhaps initial reraise AND -1 Sp?  Might do the trick;  it'll be symetrical with all the other initials, but still have that penalty attached to it.

Quote
Damage Split seems like it would need to lose HP and maybe be immune to everything MBarrier can do outside of Haste.

Just protect and shell, maybe?  Since those directly impact damage taken.

Quote
Didn't you not add any wind beyond what's already there?

Birds get an Aero spell!  So... no, not really.  It's a very minor buff, but Fly losing 1 movement might be going to far.  Most classes have 2 base move, and so 1 range fly.... not very useful.

Quote
Wet poaching? I'm not sure what you mean.

If a monster is in depth 2 water, and get poached, their corpse does not disappear.  So you're free to revive and poach until the cows come home.  This is has some nasty potential aside from why most of them were given innate cannot enter water in the first place, which is kind of silly.  

"Stalk" works, though, in both name and mechanic.

Quote
How about a support/reaction that leaves you at 0 Faith?

Br/Fa modding isn't possible at this time.  Auto-Innocent does have the same effect, though.  Perhaps we can extend the "robotics" bit?  0 faith, immune to most status, but weak to all elements?  And then just make it Mustadio-exclusive?  In fact, if it's musty-only there may not be need to weaken to all elements.  

Quote
never did hear whether that was even possible, but if it is I stand by it being a great idea.

Good idea, but, yes, not possible atm.  

Quote
Does Quell actually cancel only Charging and not Performing as well? Is this intentional?

Yes.  Was.  I'll bump it up to this, since it helps separate it from Silence Song.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 05:17:11 PM by philsov »
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [February 23, 2011, 05:42:53 PM]
Re: Humanoid Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #128 on: February 23, 2011, 05:42:53 PM »
Multi-quote battle!

In terms of balance, not really.  But just in general it feels more forced than the others.  Still something to consider.

Yeah, I suppose I can see how it would feel more forced in your patch.

I think that might be a bit much.  But perhaps initial reraise AND -1 Sp?  Might do the trick;  it'll be symetrical [sic] with all the other initials, but still have that penalty attached to it.

Eh, I suppose. Is -1 Sp really that big of a deal in your patch though? I mean, I know you're already lowering speed (and I forgot, somehow, that you were lowering movement, so forget that Fly suggestion), but -1 Sp doesn't seem that huge, especially for a unit that will getting back up. Initial: Reraise seems like it's too much, especially since that benefits the player more than AI since players will go out of their way to revive units with Reraise to keep it on while the AI never will.

I mean, I "guess" it would work and I'm normally a fan of symmetry, but I'd be lying if I agreed more than begrudgingly about it. Still, it's your patch and ultimately your decision and it's not like it would break the game (just make it easier).

Just protect and shell, maybe?  Since those directly impact damage taken.

I suppose that would be enough, though Regen and Reraise impact damage taken as well, which is why I suggesting (besides just hating Damage Split).

Birds get an Aero spell!  So... no, not really.  It's a very minor buff, but Fly losing 1 movement might be going to far.  Most classes have 2 base move, and so 1 range fly.... not very useful.

Right. Hmm...then I'm really not sure then. Obviously Cancel: Wind still doesn't mean crap and giving Ignore Height +1 Move just obviates the new Move +1. So...yeah. Not sure.

Quote
If a monster is in depth 2 water, and get poached, their corpse does not disappear.  So you're free to revive and poach until the cows come home.  This is has some nasty potential aside from why most of them were given innate cannot enter water in the first place, which is kind of silly.

Ah, more poaching stuff that I'm unaware of. Great. Damn depth 2 water.

"Stalk" works, though, in both name and mechanic.

Hurray!

Br/Fa modding isn't possible at this time.  Auto-Innocent does have the same effect, though.  Perhaps we can extend the "robotics" bit?  0 faith, immune to most status, but weak to all elements?  And then just make it Mustadio-exclusive?  In fact, if it's musty-only there may not be need to weaken to all elements.

Meh, I don't see why it would grant immunity to most status, that seems overkill even on a special character. Personally, I'd think that if you're giving it to the Mustard-man and trying to simulate Robotics, then 0 Faith, Immunity to Poison, Death Sentence & Dead, Resistance to Fire (for Oil) and Weakness to Lightning would be enough (and even then that would arguably be too much).

Yes.  Was.  I'll bump it up to this, since it helps separate it from Silence Song.

Was? Uh...thanks, I suppose. It wasn't a huge deal to me and more that I was just curious.

Also, how does that separate now it from Silence Song? Because Quell stops Performer's Dance as well as Song as opposed to Silence Song just blocking only Performer's Song?

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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Dokurider [Posts: 2807]
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  • [February 26, 2011, 05:01:58 AM]
Re: Humanoid Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #129 on: February 26, 2011, 05:01:58 AM »
How about a support ability that increases effectiveness if attacking from behind?
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [February 26, 2011, 05:15:28 AM]
Re: Humanoid Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #130 on: February 26, 2011, 05:15:28 AM »
Not to make it seem like I'm picking on your ideas, but doesn't that already happen with the way physical evasion and thus most physical attacks are set up? I might not be understanding what you mean, but that's what it sounds like, which sounds redundant.

I'd much rather see the opposite: A support ability that increased effectiveness from the front, then had decreasing effectiveness from the side and then back, like honor-based ability or something.

I'm not sure either would be possible, though, since apparently messing with in-battle stuff tends to be harder than a lot of other things.

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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Dokurider [Posts: 2807]
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  • [March 09, 2011, 06:38:09 AM]
Re: Humanoid Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #131 on: March 09, 2011, 06:38:09 AM »
Not to make it seem like I'm picking on your ideas, but doesn't that already happen with the way physical evasion and thus most physical attacks are set up? I might not be understanding what you mean, but that's what it sounds like, which sounds redundant.

I'd much rather see the opposite: A support ability that increased effectiveness from the front, then had decreasing effectiveness from the side and then back, like honor-based ability or something.
Shit I keep forgetting to respond

You do more damage/success rates goes up if you attack from the back, you know, effectiveness.
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [March 09, 2011, 09:05:19 PM]
Re: Humanoid Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #132 on: March 09, 2011, 09:05:19 PM »
Oh, so you meant that damage would increase from the back too then, I'm guessing. Well, that's not as redundant, but it still doesn't seem like it would be enough for a support. Maybe for a skill or two for like Thief and another class (Ninja?) or something. Like a "Sneak Attack".

I'd really like some Support (or just SOMETHING) beyond Fury that rewarded lower Brave since using it for Move-Find Item is kind of stupid in most cases.

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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Dokurider [Posts: 2807]
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  • [March 09, 2011, 11:40:31 PM]
Re: Humanoid Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #133 on: March 09, 2011, 11:40:31 PM »
Oh, so you meant that damage would increase from the back too then, I'm guessing. Well, that's not as redundant, but it still doesn't seem like it would be enough for a support. Maybe for a skill or two for like Thief and another class (Ninja?) or something. Like a "Sneak Attack".

I'd really like some Support (or just SOMETHING) beyond Fury that rewarded lower Brave since using it for Move-Find Item is kind of stupid in most cases.
That'll work as well.
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