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Humanoid Classes/Abilities in ASMd  (Read 29490 times)
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [April 11, 2010, 09:39:25 PM]
Humanoid Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« on: April 11, 2010, 09:39:25 PM »
There are currently 0 open and unused ability slots.  Woo-hoo!    Looking for suggestions for the already existing generic classes, monster abilities, boss-only abilities, or abilities for special characters -- please use this topic to do so and to critique stuff already on the table.

New stuff, to date:

- Blue Mage is born!  Nuked the Calculator because Math Skill is OP.  Input welcome.

Blue Mage is unlocked from job levels in both Squire and Wizard.  It has below average HP, above average MP, average Sp, and above average PA and MA.

- Archers gain a new skillset, since charge sucked.


- Bard and Dancer consolidated into a single class (Performer), which then opens up space for a new female-only job class, the Berserker.

- Time/Summon/Black/White/Yin-Yang magic all gain a 0 CTR, single-target ability for use when the AT is not in their favor.

- All generic classes gain a "starter" skill or two, a 0 JP ability to freely purchase and use as soon as the class becomes available.  

- Squires lose Dash.  Squires gained several new weapon abilities:
-- blind blow is an attack with 100% darkness infliction
-- Pierce (sword only) a double-panel weapon strike.
-- Acupuncture (xbow only) a healing weapon strike
-- Flailing Flail (flail only) a weapon strike with a 25% chance to trigger another weapon strike
-- Cleave (axe only) an attack that deals 75% damage to the target
-- Throat Slit (dagger only) inflicts Death, although unlikely

- Knights take in the Ruin abilites from 1.3, which gives them means of ranged action.  Also gain two new abilities; Shatter will cancel a target's defending/protect/shell and deal 33% damage, while Champion is an HP-absorbing attack that requires a knight sword to utilize.

- Summon Magic and Draw Out AoE reformed to cope with the reduced range/movement, hosting 3-way attacks and linear attacks in additional to traditional AoE.

- Black magic reformed.  Fire magic now has the highest damage but also the highest MP cost and charge time.  Lightning is medium damage with moderate CTR, but also has infinite vert tol.  Ice Magic is the fastest but least powerful.

- Item skillset reformed. Auto-potion effect capped at 100 HP. Single-status removal items gone. All status removing is now in either Remedy or Holy Water. When either Remedy or Holy Water is successful, the target is now also healed for anywhere from 1 to 150 HP. New potion class heals for 200 HP (auto-potion immune). New Ether class grants 80 MP. Gained three new skills which can be used offensively or defensively, whichever tickles your fancy:

Dual Kiss - Grants both Haste and Poison to the target
Turtle Shell - Grants both Slow and Protect to the target
Shade of Grey - Grants either Faith or Innocent to the target

- Steal Gil, Steal Exp removed from the game. Thief gains two new skills; Steal Sanity, inflicts the confusion status to the target, with the same chance to work as Steal Heart -- only this one ignores gender -- and Last Laugh, a move usable only while critical that inflicts blind, poison, and silence onto their target.  

- Negotiate and Death Sentence Talk Skills removed from the game. Talk skill given the 4 moves from 1.3 -- warn (inflicts defend), threaten (inflicts Don't Act), Preach (inflicts reraise), and Refute (cancels most status effectis) along with the 4 original Br/Fa modifiers, who now modify in increments of 10 in either direction.

- Elemental diversified slightly -- some panels effects are now either Pure PA or MA-based damage, and a few retain the older composite formula.  This will keep elemental viable through endgame and help reinforce where people place their geomancer.

- Counter Condemn, new monk skill, counter attacks with a chance to inflict death sentence on the target. Counter Tackle removed.

Removed from player pool


New job tree.  6 classes are initially available, and the most advanced jobs are now more accessible than before!


New status durations -- with speed growth curbed off, status numbers readjusted.


Update:  Or, instead of talking differences, here's a complete run down of the generics:

Squire:

Chemist

Knight

Archer

Priest

Wizard

Monk - notably lose innate Martial Arts

Lancer

Thief

Blue Mage - Damage Split and Def Up notably increased in JP because what else are you gonna spend JP on?

Oracle

Mediator

Geomancer:

Samurai:

Ninja - has pathetic PA, but innate Two Swords

Berserker - Female Only

Performer - Male only.  All song/dance are self-AoE of 6 atm instead of fullmap.  Lost Last Dance because CT00 are the evil.

Time Mage

Summoner

Mime - Innate Concentrate, Monster Talk, Counter, Double Magic
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 11:44:31 PM by philsov »
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3030]
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  • [April 13, 2010, 01:29:53 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2010, 01:29:53 AM »
You already know Cripple needs to go.

So far, I don't like the Knight's Cleave skill.  Not only does it not jive with everything else in the skillset (the rest debilitates, this does high end damage), but the graphic makes it feel like a Swordskill outright and the hit percent is so shaky from what I've seen so far even in Chapter 1 that against non-bosses I question why I would even want to use it over just attacking normally, as the average hit rate seem to be 50% just trying to bat through Escutcheons and Knights generally hit hard enough to knock more than that off in two turns anyway (the average for Cleave to hit).   Not sure what exact abilit(y/ies) they should be given, but Cleave seems both out of flavor and easily outdated against all but the hardiest units.

Camouflage seems the same, and it's also misspelled.  :p  100% self-Transparent is cool for a while, but as an ability I'm not sure it holds it own through to the end game like others do.  Once you get Concentrate, you're probably just going to be sporting that most of the time, especially on an Archer/Hunter primary job.

Execute, Poison Volley have tested very well so far, though, as has Salve.  Not tested Aim and Impact yet, but they look the same as a pair of Hunter abilities that Eternal uses in his patch, so they're both useful enough.  Haven't touched Blue Magics yet, so I can't comment there.  


Monsters - Looking in FFTPatcher to confirm some of their abilities, I noticed you altered Skeletons to only have Short Charge (insert sad face), and you forgot to give the Minitaurus a Reaction besides Caution.  I checked since I was going to recommend actually giving all of the Bull classes Meatbone Slash as a reaction, due to their high HP and Caution coming together to give them some noteworthy survivability (and as such, make Meatbone Slash good).  The Juravis classes of monsters need something over Arrow Guard - Arrow Guard is a nice thought, but it's ultimately going to be a "meh" Reaction for a monster especially.  Sunken State, or even going out of our way to be cool and give them a normally inaccessible Reaction like Hamedo or MP Switch could be cool.  Most of the other monsters seem alright for now, though.  Though, is there a reason for Squids to specifically have Magic Attack UP innate instead of just having their multiplier increased by 33% or something?  Seems like a wasted innate since its effect can be replicated easily.

Also, the Apanda / both forms of Demons / Serpentarius all don't have any Reactions at all, from what I can see.  I know you're not doing Deep Dungeon until later, but fixing the Demons and Apandas to have some kind of Reactions / loaded innates seems like it'd be a good idea to do about now.  

Aside - It's too bad the Reflect Reaction and that blank slot don't have any way of being used right now.  Kind of makes me want to find a way to get them to do something myself.  Damn my inability to do ASM currently, since I've already a hypothesis on a way to maybe make the Reflect Reaction work.



I'll brainstorm some more abilities right now, but this was some quick feedback I figured I should post whilst I was thinking of it.
Timbo [Posts: 547]
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  • [April 13, 2010, 03:15:46 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2010, 03:15:46 AM »
I've been playing with your archer set and I believe I've discovered what looks like an unsolvable problem.  Cripple causes the AI to move at a snails pace.  It's weird.  While an enemy or friendly unit is charging, the AI just sits there for about a minute to think about its turn.
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Dokurider [Posts: 2807]
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  • [April 13, 2010, 03:34:09 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2010, 03:34:09 AM »
How about Oil Volley for Archer then Fire Arrow? I don't think you have a skill that inflicts Oil yet, do you? Also, I think Cleave should be a 3 ranged that deals 25% damage or 33% damage if that's good, fitting in with the rest of the Ruin skills.
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3030]
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  • [April 13, 2010, 04:01:34 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2010, 04:01:34 AM »
Quote from: "Dokurider"
How about Oil Volley for Archer then Fire Arrow? I don't think you have a skill that inflicts Oil yet, do you?

I agree with this.  An ability that's something like AoE light damage + Oil would be cool.  I think just straight Oil infliction would be too weak, but a light bit of peppering damage tied on would make it pretty cool.

I kind of want to say "Poison Volley" should be renamed something more like "Poison Bomb", though.  It's not a volley if a Knight can use it at range since a volley implies a bunch of rounds being fired from a Bow/Crossbow, and it uses a punching animation anyway (IIRC) so it looks like something's being thrown if anything.
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [April 13, 2010, 04:22:14 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2010, 04:22:14 AM »
I support both the name change for Poison Volley and there being an Oil-inducing attack in Archer's repertoire, especially since it's losing status inducing since Cripple doesn't work (and Camoflague [sic] will probably ultimately end up disappearing).

I also would support getting rid of Cleave, but I promised (myself) that I would at least try it out (or get it with hit by the computer) a few times before I said anything.

Therefore, the only other thing I have to say that it would probably good to add the job tree (and maybe that loose stat guide) to the beginning post of this thread as well since currently it is only in the beginning of the very general thread where people might not think to look.

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3030]
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  • [April 13, 2010, 09:06:27 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2010, 09:06:27 AM »
Quote from: "The Damned"
(and Camoflague [sic] will probably ultimately end up disappearing).

It depends.  Camouflage could just be edited to do something in addition to Transparent.  Doing something as simple as making it heal enough HP to barely bring a unit out of Critical (probably MP costing it in the process) would give it some more long term use in addition to causing the AI to actually use it, but from what R999's told me, the AI becomes extra aggressive under Transparent and I can't prove/refute that claim right now because of how rare it is to actually see Transparent AI units that can do anything but be balls-on-walls aggressive.

Quote from: "The Damned"
Therefore, the only other thing I have to say that it would probably good to add the job tree (and maybe that loose stat guide) to the beginning post of this thread as well since currently it is only in the beginning of the very general thread where people might not think to look.

^Do this, please.   It'd make life easier if those things were posted in more places.
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formerdeathcorps [Posts: 1322]
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  • [April 13, 2010, 09:11:03 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2010, 09:11:03 AM »
The AI becomes extra aggressive under transparent and the AI will spam it regardless because the AI is originally coded to think transparent = will not be attacked and will grant 100% non-evaded physical attacks.  The AI gives adding it the same priority as adding haste.

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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3030]
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  • [April 13, 2010, 09:37:45 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2010, 09:37:45 AM »
Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"
The AI becomes extra aggressive under transparent and the AI will spam it regardless because the AI is originally coded to think transparent = will not be attacked and will grant 100% non-evaded physical attacks.  The AI gives adding it the same priority as adding haste.

I've yet to see them use it, at all.  Not even once.

It's free, and I've even picked it up from one of their crystals on a character I forgot to go through and learn all the 0 JP abilities for, so they know it.

If they really give it the same priority as Haste, I'd think I'd have seen them cast it once by now.  I guess I'll get to see/not see it when I hit Lenalia Plateau tomorrow, as there will likely be Archers I won't be able to reach for a while there, giving them ample time to do whatever the fuck they want.  Then again, Dorter Trade City already had those...
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formerdeathcorps [Posts: 1322]
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  • [April 13, 2010, 09:49:14 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2010, 09:49:14 AM »
Hmm...that's strange.  I gave them transparent + reflect off carbunkle and they always do it first turn if they can't deal damage.  As anyone with a time mage knows, reflect's priority is definitely lower than haste's, but a Su/TM will alternate between haste and carbunkle as their first spells.  Maybe he flagged something different?

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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [April 13, 2010, 04:57:11 PM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2010, 04:57:11 PM »
That or it's possible that Haste can't stack with Transparent (which it never should have been able to in the first place). I've just seen the computer Yelling at itself a lot first turn so far.

*shrug*

But, yeah, I think Camoflague [sic] should go ultimately because it screws up the AI (though I too have yet to see them use it; however, the farther I've played so far with my limited time between everything else is Mandalia and there's only been four Archers, three of whom died rather quickly) and is yet another unnecessary advantage for the player.

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3030]
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  • [April 13, 2010, 06:58:53 PM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2010, 06:58:53 PM »
Quick note:  All skills in the Blue Magic set should be flagged for Counter Magic, imo.

I'm pretty sure a number of them currently aren't, considering I've never been Counter Magic'd by this Ahriman in Sweegy Woods yet.

EDIT: looking over some stuff, and Pierce (new Squire skill) says it has a 20 MP Cost in its description, but it costs nothing and is instant when in game.  Considering the AI likes to spam it in its current form even if only hitting one target and using a fucking Longbow, I think giving it that MP Cost might be wise.

EDIT 2: When using Pierce, you get one of those weird floating Mythril Dagger things around your character because I think the animation isn't supposed to be used with human characters.  At least, that's the animation I got when Long Bow Algus charged the front line and spammed it to hell.
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formerdeathcorps [Posts: 1322]
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  • [April 14, 2010, 02:45:01 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2010, 02:45:01 AM »
Quote from: "The Damned"
That or it's possible that Haste can't stack with Transparent (which it never should have been able to in the first place). I've just seen the computer Yelling at itself a lot first turn so far.
I doubt that.  The only one I've seen like that was frog with don't act/don't move/stop, but I'm not sure why.

Quote from: "The Damned"
But, yeah, I think Camoflague [sic] should go ultimately because it screws up the AI (though I too have yet to see them use it; however, the farther I've played so far with my limited time between everything else is Mandalia and there's only been four Archers, three of whom died rather quickly) and is yet another unnecessary advantage for the player.
Are you referring to my recent research on the matter?  I actually messed up; Razele's hack does work fine; what doesn't work was my attempts to change some of the other triggers.  See my latest post: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4923.

The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [April 14, 2010, 03:13:01 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2010, 03:13:01 AM »
Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"
Are you referring to my recent research on the matter?  I actually messed up; Razele's hack does work fine; what doesn't work was my attempts to change some of the other triggers.  See my latest post: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4923.

Aye.

Now that you are here, I must ask (partially because ASM'd intends to use it as well): Have you gotten Float to take extra damage against Wind?

Regardless, even if it "works" against the computer without being unfair now, I haven't seen the computer use Camouflage at all. Is the learn rate 0% philsov? Or is the computer not flagged to learn it at all?

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
Bad code, beware! The NOPs are coming to eat you!
formerdeathcorps [Posts: 1322]
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  • [April 14, 2010, 03:15:31 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2010, 03:15:31 AM »
No, that hack doesn't work with float, just oil.  In my opinion, it should be something like undead = weak vs. holy anyways.

The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.
ALL THE THINGS Official Caretaker.
RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3030]
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  • [April 14, 2010, 03:23:19 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2010, 03:23:19 AM »
Quote from: "The Damned"
Regardless, even if it "works" against the computer without being unfair now, I haven't seen the computer use Camouflage at all. Is the learn rate 0% philsov? Or is the computer not flagged to learn it at all?

Just checked, Camouflage is indeed rigged for a 0% learn rate, heh.  

I'm guessing the AI was spamming it?  Otherwise I can't think of why he'd do that.

Also, the other 0JP Archer Move is only set to 80%... it seems odd that moves that cost 0 JP aren't flagged for a 100% Learn Rate when they probably should be.
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formerdeathcorps [Posts: 1322]
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  • [April 14, 2010, 03:58:56 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2010, 03:58:56 AM »
R999 just figured out why philsov probably did that.  The problem with Razele's hack was that changing 40 to 00 caused the AI to set its own units to run like a rabbit if they had transparent, which meant that they would only attack when an enemy was in range.

The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.
Unreliable as a Mime.
The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [April 14, 2010, 04:08:06 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2010, 04:08:06 AM »
Yeah, that's what I suspected and why I currently don't have any Transparent abilities in my patch (sans Sunken State, which, I'm still uncertain about). That's what I had meant when it came to "messing with the AI".

It's unfortunate, but I've had to do the same with Death Sentence as well.

So I'm kind of looking forward to how (Counter) Condemn works out in this patch.

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
ALL THE THINGS Official Caretaker.
RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3030]
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  • [April 15, 2010, 12:46:49 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2010, 12:46:49 AM »
I haven't gotten to test it out yet, but I'm thinking that the new Wizard spell Shatter would be better suited for Knights than Cleave, since it flows well with their whole idea of debuffing and with a high hit rate / unevadable it can actually be justified over a standard attack.  I'm thinking a single-target ability that hits for light damage and removes Protect/Shell 100% would be perfect for Knight, alongside another couple moves that help it fit in either a tanking or debuffing role.  Part of me is tempted to be quite liberal here, because anything that might be too good as a secondary skill can likely be Sword flagged to force Equip Sword or limit where it can be used.  Maybe give them a move that (randomly?) gives them self-only Protect, Shell, and/or Regen (added separately if random) or something that has a high enough MP cost to stop it from being spammed early game, and promotes Knights in Robes.

No clue what to do to give back to Wizard, though.  Wizard is generally just elemental damage / non-elemental damage / frog status, so its hard to give them something they'll actually USE and have it stay in flavor.  Is it possible to give them an inverse-Death move that demolishes all of a target's MP and has roughly the same hit rate?  Not only would that be cool, but it'd give Wizards a ridiculous way to refill their own MP while Undead if it also has Undead Reverse.

As for Archer...

Camouflage (Altered.  I'd say allow it to heal enough HP to remove a unit from Critical, but not enough to make it equal or superior to other healing skills.)
Execute (Can it be altered to 100% Add: Dead to Critical Unit?)
Aim (My only worry here is that pure SP*WP damage doesn't scale anywhere near how it does vs PA*WP damage, but 100% hitting is a far better thing in ASM'd, so...)
Poison Bomb (Renamed Poison Volley)
Oil Flashbang (Oil + light damage)
Flame Strike (Fire Elemental weapon damage)
Impact (Stays same.)
Focus Blow (CT, weapon range attack that deals a noticeable amount of extra damage to the enemy.  Similar to a charge skill that doesn't work with Guns.)
Impede (Light damage + Slow, moderate MP cost to compensate)
Salve (Stays same.)

?
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [April 15, 2010, 04:04:53 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2010, 04:04:53 AM »
Charge actually works with Guns, apparently. At least in 1.3. I'm not sure why....

Anyway, I keep forgetting to ask this and I figure I would ask this in between working on things: So, due to the fact that the Float half of Razele's "Oil weak to Fire and Float weak to Wind" doesn't work, are you going to try to fix it philsov? Or you just not going to bother?

I'm asking this partially because of the "solution" that was made to differentiation Tornado from Melt and Quake involving Float status.

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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