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FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread  (Read 260373 times)
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silentkaster [Posts: 542]
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  • [October 26, 2014, 05:39:46 PM]
Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #1560 on: October 26, 2014, 05:39:46 PM »
I'm not sure I follow you. Perhaps I'm missing something.

Maybe you're talking about move-hp up though and the unit being in an infinite loop since the enemy team will constantly chase the last unit around the map. However, for two reasons, that can't happen.

1. Move-hp up grants less hp than poison takes and...

2. When a critical unit is the last unit standing OR when all units on the team are in critical or dead, the AI switches into attack mode despite its critical status. At least that is my experience with it.

Again though, I could have misunderstood your point so apologies if my response is irrelevant to the point you were trying to make.

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Dokurider [Posts: 2807]
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  • [October 26, 2014, 08:12:05 PM]
Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #1561 on: October 26, 2014, 08:12:05 PM »
Quote
2. When a critical unit is the last unit standing OR when all units on the team are in critical or dead, the AI switches into attack mode despite its critical status. At least that is my experience with it.

IF it's the last unit standing. Otherwise, you have the perfect AI bait loop, all with just one weapon, and you know that the AI prioritizes units in critical. It doesn't need to do anything else, just turn burning itself is good enough. Balance just took it to a whole new level. And there is nothing one can do about it except hope he's the last unit your team focuses on or breaking the Phoenix Blade.

You already can make yourself Poison Immune with Platina Helmet and Diamond Armlet and in fact, you have to if you don't want to get shut down by Hawk's Eye and Kiyomori and the like. Making Phoenix Blade Immune: Poison would have been even more broken by making even safer to abuse.
silentkaster [Posts: 542]
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  • [October 26, 2014, 08:21:16 PM]
Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #1562 on: October 26, 2014, 08:21:16 PM »
My suggestion was to make it Always: Poison with nothing able to reverse it (of course with Immune: Regen). To make the PB use immune to poison would be wayyy broken.

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Barren [Posts: 2583]
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  • [October 26, 2014, 09:15:52 PM]
Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #1563 on: October 26, 2014, 09:15:52 PM »
The problem with always poison is that the phoenix blade user will keep dying after a phoenix down which is a sure way to revive. Even if you use a raise or fairy spell to revive there's a chance that they will be softened up enough to drop again. Mages especially have this problem since the poison kicks im before the spell goes off. So having poison protection is a must anyways. And doku i think you meant diamond armor, not armlet. Diamond armlet cancels slow amd oil.

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    reinoe [Posts: 450]
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    • [October 27, 2014, 12:48:58 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #1564 on: October 27, 2014, 12:48:58 AM »
    My suggestion was to make it Always: Poison with nothing able to reverse it (of course with Immune: Regen). To make the PB use immune to poison would be wayyy broken.
    Another legitimate complaint is that it extended matches beyond reason.  We all enjoy the videos put up but I'm sure recording a match with a Phoenix Blade user was an eye rolling experience.  While game mechanics should comprise of 90% of what is or isn't balanced, I think taking into account the time strain put on recorders was something taken into account.  Granted that's something FFMaster can speak on, but I wouldn't be surprised if recorder strain was a factor.

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    formerdeathcorps [Posts: 1322]
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    • [October 27, 2014, 01:14:03 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #1565 on: October 27, 2014, 01:14:03 AM »
    By that definition, reinoe, teams like Losers or Y U SO DERP or Wiz's thieves should have their primary tactics nerfed because they exploit tanking to make low probability events certain over time.  I don't think that's appropriate either.

    Like I said, the main problem was that Phoenix Blade either was awsome or awful.  There was no middle ground.

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    Shintroy [Posts: 475]
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    • [November 03, 2014, 09:08:10 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #1566 on: November 03, 2014, 09:08:10 AM »
    How can I calculate berserk damage?


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    The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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    • [November 04, 2014, 03:58:41 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #1567 on: November 04, 2014, 03:58:41 AM »
    (I'm pretty sure that Berserk still is just a flat 150% to weapon attack damage regardless of what type of weapon you're using that would thus take place before Brave/Fury calculation.)

    Alas, FFMaster would have to answer that if you want a definitive answer.

    Anyway, though I don't have much else to say for now given Tuesday still has yet to pass us by, I'll just briefly comment on the Phoenix Blade argument I was intentionally staying out of even though it's already a done issue.

    Yeah, I'm obviously using this as an excuse to procrastinate about something else.


    Another legitimate complaint is that it extended matches beyond reason.  We all enjoy the videos put up but I'm sure recording a match with a Phoenix Blade user was an eye rolling experience.  While game mechanics should comprise of 90% of what is or isn't balanced, I think taking into account the time strain put on recorders was something taken into account.  Granted that's something FFMaster can speak on, but I wouldn't be surprised if recorder strain was a factor.

    Like I said, the main problem was that Phoenix Blade either was awsome or awful.  There was no middle ground.

    Both of these things are ultimately what was wrong with Phoenix Blade, especially since the issue only got exponentially worse the more Phoenix Blades you added to a match. Matches with only one Phoenix Blade didn't drag significantly, as we saw with Celdia's team in the last tournament, though they did of course still drag a bit if Always: Reraise got a chance to kick in. However, just like with Masamune or Quickening or old Cursed Ring & Flash Hat, it's not like you should expect most people to only use one those pieces of equipment.

    Matches with just two Phoenix Blade users, though, regularly dragged out to a repetitive 20-30 minutes and that's just if they were on the same side. If they were on opposing teams, then it was way too easy to end up having matches that literally would just not end, especially when combined with how overpowered Cursed Ring's guaranteed immediate resurrection was in 1.38 ARENA. We all know how many people were using Cursed Rings in that version as well.

    Both those things combined with Quickening undermining Phoenix Blade's sole weakness beyond Weapon Break and the A.I.'s weirdly inconsistent inability to pay much attention to a unit when a Phoenix Blade unit would get back up is what made that "weapon" an item that I'm glad is gone.

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    CT5Holy [Posts: 1103]
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    • [November 04, 2014, 06:12:53 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #1568 on: November 04, 2014, 06:12:53 AM »
    Dude, teams with Phoenix Blade had terrible winrates. Especially if they had two Phoenix Blade users on the same time, cause then that team only effectively has three units. Enemy team just needs to beat down the non-Phoenix Blade users and they basically win. Due to Always: Slow, the non-Phoenix Blade users will charge ahead into the waiting arms of the enemy team. Quickening doesn't do anything for Phoenix Blade users cause it takes two uses of Quickening to get 1 point of speed, and because they're Always: Slow, it takes forever for them to even get two turns. And by then, the AI will probably prioritize something else (like attacking enemy units in range) rather than Quickening. Phoenix Blade's drawback is very real, and very tough to build around.

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    FFMaster [Posts: 2499]
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    • [November 04, 2014, 08:52:00 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #1569 on: November 04, 2014, 08:52:00 AM »
    Berserk is 50% bonus PA, rounded down. Also note that they can use reactions properly, unlike in vanilla.

    Once again, I will say that Phoenix Blade was changed because it made many battles 30 minute stallfests with the Phoenix Blade users getting no ground most of the time. I personally don't believe it was unbalanced, maybe a bit on the stronger end for sure with the right setups, but not outright OP like spellguns.

    As a general rule, I try not to balance things based on "fun" or lack of it, and believe said "fun" will be derived from a well balanced game. However, I truly believe Phoenix Blade crossed way beyond my threshold of tolerance. When I would sometimes start falling asleep watching Arena videos, something is wrong.

    If there is a way to bring back the idea of Phoenix Blade back but not be completely borked, we can give it another attempt. For now though, let's just leave it in the hole to rot.

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    The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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    • [November 04, 2014, 07:05:07 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #1570 on: November 04, 2014, 07:05:07 PM »
    (It's good to see both of you back.)

    That said, CT5Holy, I said literally nothing about Phoenix Blade with regards to winning, much less having a high win-rate. So I'll readily agree that it didn't have a high win-rate, otherwise people would have been using it way more like they were with Cursed Ring, which was basically nigh-ubiquitous last revision. I was merely pointing why matches with Phoenix Blade took so damn long, especially since even in the likely event that team with Phoenix Blade lost, it still took way too damn long for them to lose an obviously lost match. After all, the A.I. has the annoying, unfortunate tendency to go after Critical units even if they have Always: Reraise.

    I've said before that I don't think Phoenix Blade was actually a good weapon. It was just obnoxious and made the already selectively intelligent A.I. even dumber, basically being like another piece of armor rather than a weapon in most cases.

    So, again, I'm glad it's gone and it has nothing do with it having a high win-rate since, you know, it didn't have that.

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    Shintroy [Posts: 475]
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    • [November 04, 2014, 07:34:27 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #1571 on: November 04, 2014, 07:34:27 PM »
    Current P Blade is 5-10 W-EV too high.

    Is there a list of equipment that doesn't work as its supposed to?

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    CT5Holy [Posts: 1103]
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    • [November 04, 2014, 07:47:14 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #1572 on: November 04, 2014, 07:47:14 PM »
    Damned: I suppose my issue is with this statement:
    Quote from: The Damned
    Quickening undermining Phoenix Blade's sole weakness

    which I think is wrong, since Quickening + Phoenix Blade = do nothing.

    Anyways, Phoenix Blade being gone for making things boring is totally fair. Yay for fun!

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    silentkaster [Posts: 542]
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    • [November 04, 2014, 08:30:53 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #1573 on: November 04, 2014, 08:30:53 PM »
    Bow gun proc is working. I tested and it's working fine.

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    The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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    • [November 05, 2014, 04:58:22 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #1574 on: November 05, 2014, 04:58:22 AM »
    (Oh, so Bow Gun does work now? Good to know.)

    Ugh. Finally finished voting.

    Unfortunately, I am still not ready for how horrible tomorrow's/tonight's results will no doubt be. Go 'Murica.

    Damned: I suppose my issue is with this statement:
    which I think is wrong, since Quickening + Phoenix Blade = do nothing.

    Noted. Even there I'm not saying that Quickening + Phoenix Blade = winning combination though, just that Quickening literally undermines old Phoenix Blade's sole "balancing" detriment, i.e. Always: Slow. Sure, the unit is still Slowed, can't be Hasted and needs to use Quickening twice as much as a normal unit does for half of the efficiency. However, getting back up to just a normal speed of 8 (from 16) is kind of a big deal and rather doable when you never permanently die or stay dead for more than one turn unless everyone else on your team has already been KO'd. Similarly, it's not like Phoenix Blade users didn't regularly have either Steal or Time Magic as their secondary, which respectively either brought them up to their opponent's level of speed (eventually) or quickly brought their opponents down to their level of speed easily.

    I'll grant that this particular problem is the sole one from old Phoenix Blade that's become worse on the new Phoenix Blade, where only one Quickening is needed to get back to normal speed, but yeah...that's what I was getting at. Again, it had nothing to do with winning and everything to do with highlighting how tedious trying to record Phoenix Blade matches were.

    Feel free to still disagree, especially since it's not like I'm trying to convince you given the old Phoenix Blade is already dead for good reasons.

    "Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

    "Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

    "Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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    Shintroy [Posts: 475]
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    • [November 05, 2014, 08:19:36 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #1575 on: November 05, 2014, 08:19:36 PM »
    Would Gastrophetes be too OP if it had 100% Cancel Positive Effects?

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    Otabo [Posts: 818]
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    • [November 05, 2014, 09:12:32 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #1576 on: November 05, 2014, 09:12:32 PM »
    No way. Seeing how both Chaos Blade and Gold Staff do the same thing, and give 20% evade, I highly doubt it. In fact, Chaos Blade is better than Gastrophetes and it's still barely being used (especially with Save The Queen & Ragnarok's recent buffs). I doubt giving Gastrophetes 100% cancel positive statii would make it better than it is currently; being both forced 2-H and having 0% evade isn't worth it.


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    FFMaster [Posts: 2499]
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    • [November 05, 2014, 10:24:17 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #1577 on: November 05, 2014, 10:24:17 PM »
    Chaos Blade was already close to being untouched even before the other Knight Sword buffs. Paladin just has way too many options to care about a single Chaos Blade, especially when most Paladins are doing Grand Cross/Southern Cross spam anyway.

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    The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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    • [November 05, 2014, 10:40:45 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #1578 on: November 05, 2014, 10:40:45 PM »
    (Basically.)

    I think current Chaos Blade is still fine though. I think next change around be should be slightly weakening the new fiery Phoenix Blade and Ice Brand so that Grand Cross & Southern Cross is likely less attractive. That said, despite disagreeing with Dokurider about it earlier, I am reminded of something I wanted to say: Despite the fact that I think it's already decent enough, in light of all the other accessory buffs that I mostly agree with, I think N-Kai Armlet/Nu-Khai Armlet wouldn't be overpowered if it gained Immune: Blind in addition to what it already has.

    That might just be me though.

    Anyway, I'm not sure if you saw it yet or just answered silentkaster in PMs, FFMaster, but apparently Chakra Band isn't blocking Petrify like it's supposed. Unless you changed you that without putting it in the notes, which I'd personally be fine with being the case, omission aside. Still, it would be good to be certain either way.

    "Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

    "Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

    "Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
    "..." - Gogo
    Shintroy [Posts: 475]
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    • [November 14, 2014, 11:26:08 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #1579 on: November 14, 2014, 11:26:08 PM »
    Does Reraise work with cursed ring?
    Does HP Restore?

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