139 changes

[The Damned]

(But of course.)

Yeah, I mean I didn't think it was your final version or anything, especially with everything else you have to do, and the basic stats and equipment seem good. The problem is most of those abilities are overpowered regardless of what type of draft is though.

To be "realistic" about the Blue Mage thing, we have to take several things into account besides just what class it replaces:


1. What happens to the abilities of that class it replaces, i.e. what would happen not just to Mediator's skills if we "nuked" the holding class itself, but also its RSMs.

2. How they compare to other human classes, which is obvious, but something that still would need to be addressed and acknowledge such as not giving Blue Mage skills that obviate other skills, especially other powerful skills like Tornado or Mimic Daravon.

3. How they compare to monsters, which is also obvious since there's no point in bringing monsters in if they're already obviated, which is a problem that monsters (and Mimes) have already with the current classes as is. The same goes for Blue Mages if they were to come after monsters though at this point it's likely they would come before.

4. How or even if they inform monsters' abilities if Blue Mage comes first or vice versa for Blue Mages' abilities if monsters come first. ...Of course, it's not like this particular Blue Mage has to have monster abilities from (all) of the monsters that make it in or even the exact same version, even if they have 16 skills. I think this is what everyone suspects given Eternal's comment, since that's the only way said "mid-battle" comment would make sense given the nature of ARENA. Regardless of that, it raises another issue though.

5. How (or if) Blue Mage influences the type of monsters that get in. At present, the only thing that seems to be agreed upon when it comes to monsters is that there will be no classes within monster families and all families will be made into composites. So that means that 48 monsters is already narrowed down to "just" 16, which is frankly necessary so as to be manageable. Beyond that, though, even before we get into the obvious "focuses" issue, we have to deal with the key question: What type of monsters are getting in? Do we just universally use the monsters from vanilla? Even with all the problems the Undead monsters have usually had? And how Hydra would probably remain the strongest regardless of changes due to the basic nature of it "having" to have Triple Attack and such?


Yeah. Blue Mage would need a lot more decided upon about it than just what it gets in terms of stats, equipment and ability unlike Druid, which is "replacing" a class that's pretty much quite similar to it. So I guess it's good we're talking about it now even though there's almost no way it's getting into 139 because it, like monsters, would probably take a while to decide.

That said, I could probably put a quick draft of what I was "expecting" when it comes to Blue Mages myself, but meh.

Regardless (of versions of drafts), it's ultimately up to FFMaster (and some vague sub-forum consensus) whether he wants to even have the class or not. Well, him and PX too technically I suppose, though PX is pretty much never around, at least on the forums; I don't know whether he's on IIRC or hidden, but I haven't seen that guy (?) in ages despite him still being (sub-)moderator for ARENA.

[Barren]

Well I appreciate the feedback, and definitely it is up to FFMaster if he wants Blue Mage or not. And I'm glad you took it as a rough draft because that's all it really is. Of course it can be nerfed and what not to make the skills less OP'd and balanced enough so it becomes usable without being too much of a challenge to overcome.

Hopefully it does get a yay but if nay then no biggie.

[Dokurider]

More Crystal Shield ideas:

5 P/M Ev
Always: Regen, Immune: Poison
Weak: Earth, Dark, Ice

This was designed to give Natural Wrist a partner, because otherwise, it's can't really compete with the other accessories that absorb/cancel shield weaknesses.

or

20 P/M Ev
+2 Move/Jump
Immune: Crystal

Immortality in exchange for a reckless streak?

[The Damned]

(Ugh, I think I forgot suggest more things, like Thief losing a bit of HP even if it loses Quickening [as it should] since it can hit pretty damn hard now and is naturally the fastest and most evasive class [that can use equipment]. The more I think about it though, the more Oracle's suggested HP boost possibly isn't necessary since I was looking solely at the female HP. Then again, an awful lot of people are sitting at around 165 HP and literally no one has 175....)

The first shield is kind of interesting, especially since you don't have to use Natural Wrist (or Rainbow Staff) to counter its effects but it's not otherwise trivially dealt with even with the suggestion of moving Null: Ice to Defense Ring. Similarly, it would still encourage use of some lesser used things like the Float Movement, Feather Boots and N-Kai Armlet, which is always good to see. It's also not entirely redundant to P Bag or Light Robe. Still, Poison's already kind of weak enough, but maybe if the spell gets actually moved to Time Mage (or Oracle) and Wiznaibus becomes cheaper, that will change....

As for the second shield, haha. Hell no. Do you really want immortal 6-move Teleporting Geomancer-Draw-Out bots who can now use all of their other slots on boosting MA? Yeah...no.


Anyway, here's my Blue Mage proposal. It took a bit longer than I thought for a...couple of reasons I'm not going to get into now. Stat-wise and equipment, Barren's was mostly fine as I said yesterday. I just expanded on that.

I completely redid most of its abilities though; I might even use some of these versions for either of my patches now:

spoiler: Theoretical ARENA Blue Mage, Damned Version 0.1

Generic Male Stats
HP: 154
MP: 74
Sp: 9
PA: 8
MA: 9
Move: 4
Jump: 3
C-EV%: 0%

Generic Female Stats
HP: 145
MP: 80
Sp: 9
PA: 7
MA: 10
Move: 4
Jump: 3
C-EV%: 0%

Equipment: Katana, Staves, Flails, Books, Shields, Hats, Clothes, Accessories and maybe Robes.

spoiler: Rejected for selection here

1. Rods - Due to Muramasa & Two Swords.
2. Ninjato - Due to Hidden Knife + Muramasa. Even if Ninja can already do that, they're "squishier".
3. Poles - Enough people have those and already aren't using them most of the time anymore.
4. Knives - Same as above, though these have been seeing a lot more recent usage.
5. Swords - Tempting, but "boring".

That 4 Move could perhaps go (back) to Squire instead. Squire can maybe even have the 9 Speed as well. This even if its equipment set is arguably the best and its already greatly improving skill set would be getting an influx of Mediator's good skills, the latter necessitating that it gets Monster Talk innately. I'd be fine with giving Blue Mage more HP if that happened though (since I considered doing that anyway).

Leaving stats as "decided", this would mean that we can finally get to its moveset, which is the "real" potential problem here.

First, though, assuming that Mediator is the class replaced with this, we have to decide what to do with both Mediator's abilities and RSMs. It seems highly unlikely that all their abilities would or should die, especially with the changes I just suggested for them. Similarly, their RSMs aren't dying; even Monster Talk can stay if monsters are finally making it in.

At present, I think it's best if a good amount of its skills go to Squire, which has 8 (Accumulate, Focus, Throw Stone, Bullrush, Heal, Yell, Wish & Ultima) currently. The rest of them can probably die though (or go to Thief). The same goes for the RSMs except that instead of dying, they'll become Blue Mage's, which would need more RSMs than that anyway:


1. Blackmail: Can probably go to Squire.
2. Persuade (changed): Can maybe go to Squire.
3. Preach: Can probably die.
4. Solution (changed): Can probably go to Squire
5. Death Sentence: Can probably die.
6. Insult: Can maybe go to Squire or die. 50/50.
7. Refute (changed): Can probably go to Squire.
8. Mimic Daravon: Can probably go to Squire. May get nerfed if it went to Squire.


Squire's Heal can probably die if that occurs then and Focus might have to go someone else like, say, Thief, though it's not like Talk Skill benefits from MA-boosting so heavily on neutral compatibility. As for RSMS, well Squire can get Finger Guard, which may have to drop all the way to 50 JP, and Monster Talk, which it would have to also get innately.

Blue Mage gets to keep Unyielding and the suggested change of Move-1 from 138 Paladin. Blue Mage would then get Bard & Dancer's Brave Up--suggested to be 100 JP--and Faith Up reactions since the former sees no use and the latter isn't really useful to either class's primary.

Of course, it's a question as to whether the Blue Mage skills should even go on Faith...or even use that much MP considering monsters don't really have the chance to get much MP. (This reminds me that I need to ask someone how the hell you up initial & potential MP growth since it's really pathetic, especially on the monster side, the amount that units start out with.)

Regardless, let's try to decide on 16 abilities for this class, which is the "real" crux:

spoiler: Theoretical Blue Magick

1. Choco Esuna - This would likely become a single-target, instant, multi-negative-status-cancelling Range 4 ability.  This would NOT cure the same things as Esuna or Stigma Magic, but instead focus on more esoteric status, like Oil, Undead & Berserk. JP cost 100 or at most 150. (Represents Chocobos - Would be had by the monster.)

2. Goblin Punch - Probably "best" if it's a single-target version of the current Cover Fire to some degree, which includes being non-elemental. Might allow this to cost 0 MP. Cost for this around 150 or 200 JP. Affected by P-EV. (Represents Goblins - May be had by the monster.)

3. Blood Suck/Red Feast - Close-range HP drain that drains 20% or 25% and has a 25% chance of inflicting Undead--this is one of the few things Separate is useful for. Possibly affected by P-EV. Costs 200 JP. (Represents Panthers - May be had by the monster.)

4. Mad Bomber/Mad Bombing - Range 3 persevering Fire-elemental MA-based attack with CT 4. Subject to M-EV. Not really all that damaging by itself. Has a small chance of causing Oil. Costs 200 or 250 JP. Would obviously need to cost MP. May be subject to Reflect. (Represents Bombs - Unlikely to be had by monster.)

5. Flood - Water version of Tornado or Quake. Boring, but meh. Not like Scholar/Druid has room for it what with having Maelstrom. Then again, Scholar/Druid does have Earth Dragon & Quake, so.... The same costs and stats as Tornado & Quake. (Represents Mindflayers - Likely to be had by monster.)

[SCRAPPED (IN THE SENSE THAT BLUE MAGE HAS IT): Odd Soundwave/Eerie Soundwave - Auto AoE 2, non-discriminating Cancel: positive status ability that would NOT ignore the user/self. Based on PA rather than being 100% and thus subject to P-EV. Having CT unlikely, so MP cost necessary as to not outpace Dispel even with its AoE 1 upgrade (or Chaos Blade, Gold Staff & Spellbreaker). Costs around 200 JP. (Represents Mindflayers - Likely to be had by monster.)]

6. Trine - Tri-directional, range 3, 0 CT Lightning-elemental magick since, powerful as Hydras are, their attacks are a bit too random. This especially since monsters aren't going to be able get away with being OHKO machines ala 1.3 so as to be able to compete. This would be at least moderately strong, so probably at least 250 JP and at least MP 8 (like Houkouton). (Represents Hydras - Probably to be had by monster.)

7. Nap Time! - Because Pooh! really needs a less...silly & vulgar name. This would be MA-based, but unavoidable and a CT 3 attempt at adding Sleep, Don't Act or Stop. Its MP would probably be 8 like Bad Luck's is/was. Costs around 200 JP. (Represents Uribos - Probably to be had by monster.)

8. Earth Shaker/Tremor - Auto AoE 2 Earth elemental that does not discriminate and has a 20% chance of causing Don't Move. 0 CT, so it would also have to cost a bit of MP and it's perhaps best if it's based off of both PA & MA and avoidable. Costs around 250 JP. (Represents Bulls - Probably would be had by monster.)

9. Aero - Wind version of the older Time Mage Demi, meaning it would do 25% in AoE 1 at CT 2 for around 12 or 15 MP. The only difference is that this would be based of MA and not Faith & MA. Still M-EV though. Costs around 200 or 250 JP. (Represents Aevises/Avions - Might be had by monster.)

10. Bad Breath - Linear 2--because it's sure as hell not going to be Auto AoE 2 here--non-discriminating attempt at adding several negative statuses at Random: Blind, Silence, Don't Act, Don't Move, Poison, Petrify & Frog. This would have to be 0 CT/instant so as to prevent the AI from "diagonal targeting" and thus making it 2 directional (unless someone's finally worked out a solution to that). As such, it's probably best if this isn't 100%, but instead PA-based (and thus subject to P-EV) with "just" high chance of hitting. Of course, making it solely PA-based automatically makes it vulnerable to Blind, correct? That's rather nonsensical since it's breath. So perhaps MA-based with a lower chance than a PA version would be better despite M-EV still being somewhat scarce. Regardless, this should probably cost at least 250 JP and a bit of MP. (Represents Malboros - Would have [a version] of this.)

11. Harm - Exact same as the spell for my proposal of redone Wizard Staff, meaning it's a Dark version of Dia that adds Silence instead of Blind. Similarly costs 150 JP since people seem to be fine with that. (Represents Skeletons or Ghosts - They seem kind of interchangable at present to be honest.)

12. Cold Soul - Range 4, single-target, Ice elemental magickal attack that's instant, subject to M-EV and has a 50% chance of dispelling Regen, Reraise, Protect, Shell and Reflect. So...basically a distant Ice version of what Spellbreaker is "supposed" to be doing that's actually subject to M-EV. As such, as I imagine that the X for this wouldn't surpass 9 and it would cost at around 200 JP. (Represents Skeletons or Ghosts - They seem kind of interchangable at present to be honest.)

13. Mighty Guard - Range 5, single-target, Faith-based attempt to add Protect, Shell & Regen to a target. Yeah, Wall hardly needs more competition, but this would take up its old MP cost & not be guaranteed and Wall could probably drop to 18 MP. Both would be subject to Reflect I suppose. This would be around 250 JP. (Represents Woodfolk - Would probably have this.)

14. Ray Bomb - Range 4, AoE 1, Holy-elemental, around CT 5, high-moderate Faith-based damage spell. This probably would be around 300 JP. (Represents [Holy] Dragons - The monster might have this.)

15. Look of Devil - Barren's ability works here aside from the add Dead aspect I suppose. It could also probably stand to be a bit quicker without that. This should have a JP cost around 200 I suppose. (Represents Flying Eyes - Monster likely to have this.)

16. Meteor - Very high, non-elemental, by necessity Faith-based AoE 3 damage that would have a high MP, CT and JP cost. Might have to cost as much as 500 JP and CT as high as 10, but I'd rather not have such a pseudo-prohibition be necessary since it wouldn't deter anyone who really wanted a "nuke" anyway. (Represents Behemoths - Monster might have this.)

It's rather telling that I can't really think of anything for Flying Eyes or Behemoths, hunh? When it comes to Flying Eyes, the only other thing I could think of would be trying to replicate Roulette (with Death Sentence, of course), but what I got was so underwhelming that it might have to cost 50 JP just to be useful. So I just used Barren's since that was one of his more reasonable skills.

With regards to Behemoth, well, no more elements were left and most statuses were taken already. Additionally, they historically have been linked to Meteor, Comet and such. It is rather difficult, however, to think of a "sequel" to a spell that currently fixed damage, especially in light of Auto Potion; of course, Comet and its ilk often being random damage doesn't help much either inspiration-wise. I suppose one could make a Meteorain that does 80 damage over at least AoE 1 if not more so that it can at least break even with Auto Potion, but...yeah. Shrug.

I figure a good deal, if not most, of Blue Mage's Blue Magic(k) skills would end up being "expensive" JP-wise since they have access to one of all monster skills and, through secondaries, revival. I'm not sure where I stand on it being subject to Silence given historically Blue Magic hasn't--even if that was a glitch initially I suppose--and only about a quarter of its abilities would probably end up going by Faith.

I mean, if Paladin can have freaking Reraise at 100% that's not subject to Silence....

Thought exercise over. I'll have the compiled of changes and bugs (that I remember) list up by tonight.

[Dokurider]

Well Always: Regen and Immune: Poison is just a placeholder; it could be anything, as long as it justifies the Elemental weaknesses. Immune: Crystal isn't as strong as you think it is. It's only good if allies can reach the corpse. But maybe the +2 Move is unjustified. I'm just not convinced Immune: Crystal alone is good enough.

We just had to start talking about monsters and Blue Mages again, didn't we?

EDIT: Actually, I got it

5 P/M Ev
Always: Regen, Immune: Crystal
Weak: Earth, Dark, Ice

That way, Poison will still block Phoenix Down and Wish, but otherwise won't be the death of that unit. It just has to wait Poison out.

[The Damned]

(Hey, it's not my fault that FFMaster brought up monsters again. I'm not even pushing for Blue Mages or anything, as much as I like them.)

Yeah, the Immune: Crystal part wasn't what I had a problem it with, hence my focusing the 6-Move thing with 20% evasion; Phoenix Blade still being around doesn't exactly me feel "better" with Immune: Crystal though.

The new combined shield is...something I'll have to think about.

[The Damned]

(...Why does the "Print" function blatantly skip [a lot] of posts in threads that are shorter than I've seen it work perfectly for [on other forums]?

...Anyway, I began this on Friday night, so I more or less kept my "promise".)

Before I forget again, before 138 was released, Raven actually provided a formula fix for Cover Fire that seems to have been ignored for one reason or another:


"For Cover Fire, reducing the Y to 60 doesn't do much, just reduces damage by 10-30 points.  I recommend changing it from (1...3)*(PA+70) to (1...6)*(PA+25)."


Anyway, this is a compiled list of things up to the 5th of January 2013, which is basically the end of page 46 in the Balance thread. This isn't to screw over Wiz--his singular post is here--or anything; I just decided doing it from week back when FFMaster asked would be "best".

I'll fix typos and stuff that either I realize I forgot or that people tell me I forgot or misinterpreted later. It doesn't really help that I kinda wiped my bug list twice and can't find my old one:

spoiler: RavenofRazgriz

1. Suggested of adding Cloths to "Equip Polearm", Harps to "Equip Magegear" and Headbands to "Equip Clothing".

2. Suggested Oil blocking reactions; I initially agreed with this--I no longer do at present.

3. Suggested agreed with Gaignun's Time Magic changes and generally thought that Haste 2, Slow 2 and Sinkhole changing to 200 JP from 300 JP.

4. Suggested changing merging Fly with Float.

5. Suggested moving "Defend" from Squire (to Chemist or a couple of other classes besides Squire).

6. Suggested making "Speed +1" instead of "Move-CT UP", though he admitted that "we" could probably do both; the latter is just requires (a lot) more effort for relatively little pay-off.

7. Suggested Wish be changed to Range 3 rather than my initial suggestion of 100% accuracy; I concurred and continue to do so.

8. Disagreed with my suggestion that Immune: Blind being given to just Salty Rage; thought it should also be given to Genji Helmet.

9. Suggested Ninjato changes (eventually) after agreeing that Sasuke Knife and most of the other current Ninjato aren't worth using; he was going to wait until 140 to bring it up, as was I.

10. Thought we should kill Power Wrist & Genji Gauntlet instead of Sprint Shoes to make room for the new accessory to take Crystal Shield's currently nigh-useless old properties.

11. Disagreed with pretty much all suggestions about trying to improve Ignore Height since he felt that unnecessary.

[I'm not going to bother reposting all the equipment stuff he already posted.]

spoiler: Malroth

1. Suggested adding "Don't Move" to Nameless Dance since he generally doesn't feel like the Dance skill-set is worth anything.

2. Suggested allowing Headbands to be equipped either through their own Equip X or part of "Equip Clothing".

3. Suggested giving Dancer's Cloths more evasion.

4. Suggested adding a skill to Basic Skill that was self-targeting and healed 20% HP while adding Berserk.

5. Suggested increasing Haste & Haste 2's Y values by 50%.

6. Suggested increasing Slow & Slow 2's Y values by 25%.

7. Suggested increasing Stop & Don't Move's durations above 25 clock ticks so that an affected 8 Speed unit would be affected for more than 1 turn.

8. Suggested +1 range for Comet and Sinkhole.

9. Suggested Geomancer perhaps getting access to Staves naturally, though not very strongly because of Magegear.

10. Suggested making White Staff Holy elemental.

11. Suggested making Light Robe & P Bag immune to Poison; this was immediately disagreed with by Raven.

12. Agreed with my suggestion of possibly making Song & Dance vulnerable to Silence, but ONLY if Dancers were capable of equipping Robes since, again, he feels like Dance sucks.

13. Agreed that Masamune was/is overpowered and suggested that it should turn to "2 separate 50+ma% chances for each status similar to how the Byblos demon's skill."

14. Suggested Thief could use some more MP and some more MA.

15. Suggested moving Blind, Charm and Stop immunity from Chakra Band to Choice Band.

spoiler: FFMaster

1. Suggested maybe adding Equip Headbands to Martial Arts; Raven and most other people weren't sure how to feel about this while I disagreed because of Ninja.

2. Suggested a solution to the very limited Item Attribute space, a solution that he had Raven work on.

3. Suggested Teleport changes that everyone else felt were unnecessary.

spoiler: Dokurider

1. Suggested changing Spear to cause 50% Execute, Mythril Spear to cause 50% Bad Luck, Partisan to cast nothing and Holy Spear to have 33% Spellbreaker.

2. Suggested Gold Staff to have 20% W-EV and Rainbow Staff to get Immune: Oil, both in addition to their respective aspects already.

3. Initially suggested White Staff & Wizard Staff to share Initial: Shell & Initial: Protect with Cashmere & Persia respectively. Then he remembered that Knightswords with the attributes that were having problems already existed as I reminded him. He then suggested changing White Staff to Halve: Fire & Ice & Lightning and Wizard Staff to have +1 MA & Always: Transparent. (I immediately disagreed with the latter.)

4. Disagreed with reinoe's changes with regards to Staves and Black Magick. Dokurider did agree, however, that Healing Staff might need more power or it might just need to bypass the Fury mechanic.

5. Suggested Long Bow's Range increased to 7 or 8 or give it initial: Float instead of +1 Move and thought that Lightning Bow & Ice Bow should lose their +2 MA.

6. Suggested that Slasher be reduced to 8 WP with a 50% chance of Extra Attack...before being reminded that Axe's formula got fixed a while ago and rescinding this since it would make Slasher even worse.

7. Suggested changing Cloths' Item Attributes: Persia gets Initial: Haste & Cashmere gets +2 Speed.

8. Suggested making Germinas Boots have 2 Move with Always: Death Sentence. Everyone else quickly shot this down.

9. Suggested Ignore Height possibly lessening "the duration of negative status (negate 3 CT from each negative status each time moved)".

10. Suggested turning Crystal Shield into a Kaiser Plate-esque shield for Wind, Water & Earth,

11. Suggested making an accessory that blocked both Charm & Blind.

12. Agreed with the suggestion to have Air Knife be 11 WP but still Two Hand capable.

13. Suggested giving Battle Axe just straight out Dead proc; I immediately shot this down.

14. Suggested (via formerdeathcorps's suggestion--I presume on IRC or via PM) that Heretic goes to Ninja & Thief gets Houkouton. That or Heretic got made "better" somehow or added Regen to the self. I shot down the last two options.

spoiler: CT5Holy

1. Suggested changing Last Song back from 34% to 50%; I initially agreed with this, though I'd like to see it a bit less than 50% for a bit now....

2. Explicitly agreed with Gaignun's initial Time Mage suggestion.

3. Disagreed with the percentage amount that Malroth was boosting Time Magick's spells, though he agreed that Haste & Haste 2 could probably see a slightly accuracy boost.

4. Ambivalently agreed that "+1 range for Comet should be ok", but disagreed that Sinkhole needed more range.

5. Wasn't sure what to make of Stop (the status) having more of a duration.

6. Suggested boosting the current versions of Persuade, Preach & Solution's hit rates (which was part of an agreement with Raven).

spoiler: Gaignun

1. Suggested initial Time Mage & Time Magick changes the people generally agreed with and also suggested Priest being the mage to sit at 9 SP.

spoiler: Said Changes

Code: [Select]
Female
            HP  MP  SP  PA  MA
Priest     106  82   9   6  10
Time Mage  125  87   8   3  10

Change      HP  MP  SP  PA  MA
Priest     -19  --  +1  --  --
Time Mage  +19 +10  -1  --  +1

...Then a couple of months later he had a radically different Time Mage suggestion that would instead see them getting Shields and have them (and Priest) not changing stat-wise.

2. Suggested turning Ninja into a "debuffing unit" or at the very least giving them " 0 CT ranged or self-targeting AoE skill that does damage and cancels Regen and/or Haste at 100% efficiency" as a way of combating rampant Masamune. This attack would probably be thematically based on the "explosive tag".

spoiler: Barren

1. Was the first to realize the Reflect bug with Lore because of Math Skill's spot.

2. Suggested perhaps lowering Poison & Regen's CT if they're going to remain after Death.

3. Agreed with Dokurider's proposal for an accessory that Blocks Charm & Blind.

spoiler: reinoe

1. Suggested Flare needing a boost, partly because of Golden Hairpin being overpowered and benefiting the already strong Holy.

2. Had his own suggestion for Staves (like pretty much everyone else):

spoiler: Staves of reinoe

White Staff - WP: 8; W-EV: 10%; Range: 1; Element: Holy; Special: 50% Cast: Dia; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.

Healing Staff - WP: 14; W-EV: 15%; Range: 1; Special: Restore: HP, Strengthen: Holy; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.

Wizard Staff - WP: 5; W-EV: 10%; Range: 1; Speed +1; Null:Silence; Two Hands: Yes; Two Hands: Yes.

As for the other Staves, I don't know what to think about them.  Except I like Mace Of Zeus as it is.  Wizards don't have access to it and scholars have better options for boosting Lightning.
****
(from later post)
I'm feeling inspired...
Gold Staff - WP: 10; W-EV: 30%; Range: 1; Special: 100% Cancel on hit: All positive statii; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.

The high power is to encourage people to create spellcasters who will enter combat.  Since magic-users are squishy I'd greatly increase the Evasion on the staff as well.

3. Suggested Mimes becoming immune to Blind, Don't Act & Silence; Raven & I disagreed with this, though I remembered incorrectly that Silence does actually affect Mimes.

4. Suggested Black Magick other than Flare seeing a boost because he thought Black Magick still seemed underpowered, partly because it was used so little as a secondary. I pointed out why it was used so little as a secondary, i.e. lack of revival.

5. Suggested Long Bow be changed to this:

Long Bow - WP: 14; W-EV: 10%; Range: 6; Special: Move+1; Two Hands: Forced; Two Swords: No.

Similarly suggested that Lighting Bow & Ice Bow get +2 PA instead of +2 MA, which Dokurider and myself disagreed with.

6. Lamented that Frog no longer lasted beyond death.

7. Suggested that Ignore Height perhaps be turned into a Movement that decreased negative statuses by some significant duration, somewhat like a Reverse Spellbound. ("Reverse Spellbound" was my description, not his.)

spoiler: Eternal

1. Suggested that Ignore Height be tied into the Jump skillset somehow, like maybe lowering the CT of Jump.

2. Made it known that he was perfectly fine with Silence becoming Addle after formerdeathcorps stated he thought Eternal felt otherwise.

3. Wondered why Yell cost 8 MP if Masamune existed as it does with AoE, Regen and no MP cost.

spoiler: formerdeathcorps

1. Stated that Power Wrist & Genji Gauntlet weren't worthless.

2. Suggested that Salty Rage (and by extension, Genji Helmet) should go back to being Always: Berserk.

3. Suggested that Masamune wasn't "broken" unless one had two units running with it--he and I had a long back and forth about this that I'm not reproducing here.

4. Was generally the only person against Elemental Neutralizers.

5. Suggested that Bloody Strings be weakened to 8 WP (by saying it's actually equivalent to 1.5 of its normal WP on average).

6. Implied something should be done with Iron Fan.

7. Hesitantly suggested that Sasuke Knife might be better off as +2 Speed if we wanted to improve it; moot now.

8. Suggested swapping Defense Ring's Absorb Water with Jade Armlet's Null Ice since he felt the former was too strong as it presently is.

9. Suggested changing Time Mage's Speed to 10 instead of 8; I've increasingly found this to be a preferable idea.

spoiler: Myself

1. Originally concurred with Raven about Oil blocking Reactions; I no longer do.

2. Concurred with Malroth about Cloths getting more evasion, like 20% W-EV.

3. Concurred with Equip X improvements; now currently ambivalent towards Cloths & Headband & Harps moving.

4. Suggested "Equip Clothes" to Monk, which Raven agreed with and said was actually smart for once. Secretly I squeed.

5. Switching "Crystal Shield" & "Salty Rage" at least conceptually; disagreed with by Raven, at least in the sense of making a shield that caused Berserk...which wasn't what I was ever suggesting. He obviously agreed with the elementally neutral accessory, as pretty much everyone else except for fdc did.

6. Suggested Battle Song & Magic Song go back to 50% (since Song > Dance overall in my opinion); disagreed with by Raven and then later formerdeathcorps, though the latter was more disagreeing with my "Song > Dance" conclusion.

7. Suggested making the three non-Holy Lance breath spears elemental. I had also originally suggested making them weaker in terms of WP, especially if Lancers got Robes back, but I no longer "require" that.

8. Suggested Balancing Ribbon Usefulness since Ribbon/Chakra Band was far and away the most useful in most instances and Barette/Choice Band was pretty much never used:

spoiler: Ribbons

1. Cachusha [Focus Band]: HP: 65; MP: 60; Immune: Undead, Charm, Innocent, Faith.

2. Barette [Choice Band]: HP: 55; MP: 40; Immune: Dead, Frog, Poison, Berserk, Death Sentence.

3. Ribbon [Chakra Band]: HP: 45; MP: 20; Immune: Petrify, Silence, Blind, Slow, Sleep, Don't Move.

Raven and I basically seem to have compromised on this, though I'm still weary of Ribbon blocking that much, especially when it comes to his most recent version.


9. Originally concurred with CT5Holy that Last Song should return to 50%; I'm no longer convinced it should, though that's partly because I think it should be equal to the (seemingly) weaker Last Dance, which I'm convinced needs a boost, but not to 50% after I realized it could do something potentially really obnoxious.

10. Concurred with Gaignun's original proposal for Time Mages...which is part of the reason I would then months later waste a page arguing about his secondary shield proposal (for Time Mages, not a mage in general). I also came to agree with formerdeathcorps's proposal of giving Time Mage 10 Speed. Let it be noted that everyone was a lot less unanimous about JP costs for things outside of that they should be "less" and that the two Haste spells need at least a slight accuracy buff.

11. Agreed with everyone that Flare could cost slightly less and maybe be slightly faster due to Holy and Golden Hairpin.

12. Agreed with Raven's idea for Armor (after viciously mauling them to have more MP and stuff).

13. Had my own idea for Staves as with everyone else. No need to repost that given an updated version is posted in my "personal" post in this thread anyway.

14. Apparently agreed, while siding with Dokurider against most of reinoe's suggestions, that +1 Move or Range 7 on Long Bow would be fine, partly because nothing had Initial: Float and this was before the "Item Attributes for everyone!" thing was (maybe) decided upon.

15. Agreed with Raven & Dokurider that Lightning Bow & Ice Bow are fine.

16. Agreed with the sentiment of Slasher being Two-Sword-able after bringing up the "fact" that Battle Axe needs to be nerfed and Giant Axe currently obviates Slasher.

17. Was ambivalent towards Persia getting Initial: Haste & Cashmere getting +2 Speed, though I felt the Persia, at the time, was getting "gyped" if that occurred. Still kind of do.

18. Posed "Defend" question to people, primarily Raven. Ended up (reluctantly) agreeing that it "should" go to Chemist if it didn't go Mediator.

19. Had suggested that Wish be 100% accurate if it was going to restore such a pitiful amount, but eventually agreed that it getting Range 3 should be enough if not better or at least an immense improvement to its current sorry state.

20. Formally suggested for "Alacrity" to be renamed "Focus", "Venetian Shield" to be renamed "Zephyr Shield" (in the Master Guide) and that "Ramia Harp" for "Lamia Harp".

21. Suggested Hidden Knife's W-EV 0% since it was/is basically obviating most of the other Ninjato as it is even before having the same evasion as them.

22. Suggested that Salty Rage (and by extension, Genji Helmet) get "Block:/Immune: Blind", though initially I hadn't wanted Genji Helmet to get it.

23. Suggested Sprint Shoes to be replaced with the Neutral: All Element Accessory partly because I erroneously believed them to be the least used items among those that hadn't ever been changed. Well that and because I view(ed) them as superfluous with Quickening around.

24. Suggested Nameless Song gets Add: Defending" to finally see some use; I quickly found out that it will use Nameless Song now though, so this suggestion is rescinded.

25. Suggested that Masamune lose Regen since Draw Out already has Murasame, which is arguably the best healing ability in the entire game (and has kinda been that way since Vanilla).

26. Suggested making Song/Sing/Bardsong vulnerable to Silence because it's "sensible" and because it's really the only way to stop it aside from Dance, which has lower values now. Suggested that Dance also be made vulnerable to Silence, if only because it would be "fair" (though I didn't think it was altogether necessary).

27. Suggested that people not need to spend 500 JP just to unlock their Primary & Secondary since I felt it the best possible change due to not favoring doing away with the JP limits altogether. I then conceded that this may mean slightly upping the cost of opening classes from 250 to...something else.

28. Was lukewarm to Dokurider's suggestion that the Crystal Shield replacement be a Kaiser Plate-esque shield for Wind, Water and Earth. Conceded that it was better than my lack of ideas, especially since an Immune: Blind shield was only thing I could (and still can) think of and I felt it might upset the balance too much.

29. Disagreed that there needed to be an accessory that blocked both Blind & Charm.

30. Suggested that the "leftover" accessory, if there was a second new one, might "need" to be "Immune: Innocent & Faith" since nothing else is save for one piece of armor and soon to be a Ribbon with still dubious accessibility.

31. Suggested Quickening gets raised to (at least) 20 MP if it doesn't die horribly. (As I increasingly think it should, which is saying something since I've thought it was a bad idea from the beginning.)

32. Suggested Thief's MP go up by (at least) 1.

33. Suggested Bad Luck's MP get reduced from 9 to 6 and that its Dead & Oil procs get replaced with Frog or Death Sentence or both. Also suggested it get renamed "Jinx" regardless.

34. Agreed Lancers should get Robes (back?).

35. Generally agreed with Raven's weapon changes after I brought up weapon "recap" list that included changes (or lack thereof) to half the weapons. Ignored weapon types at that point were Knightswords, Harps, Guns, Books, Cloths, Poles and Rods & Flails & Bags and, to a degree, Longbows.

36. Suggested that Refute needs to lose its ability to cancel Charging & Performing at the very least.

37. Suggested that Kagesougi needs to lose its ability to cause Don't Act given the immense amount of damage it can do already and its virtual guarantee of (two) statuses.

38. Suggested that Tsumazuku either be changed or die & being replaced.

39. Agreed that Heretic be moved to Ninja.

40. Ranted about Scholar being Wizard+ still from 1.3 in terms of stats. This is largely irrelevant, but something I do not want to see repeated by Druid.

41. Suggested adding Undead to Death, though Dokurider would later convince me this was a bad idea and Raven would later convince me that it was fine as a "niche". So I decided to only suggest dropping its JP to 150 for now.

spoiler: Things More or Less Everyone Agrees With

1. It started with everyone agreeing that Golden Hairpin should lose +1 MA and Clothes in general needing MP boosts and the highest armors & the helmet that gives needing HP boosts, which resulted in the initial Equipment list of Raven that was the starting one for one he posted in here:

spoiler: Initial List by Raven

[HELMETS]
HP 120 MP 040 Cross Helmet - No Added Effects.
HP 150 MP 000 Grand Helmet - No Added Effects.

[HATS]
HP 080 MP 020 Green Beret - Move +1, Jump +1.
HP 070 MP 000 Twist Headband - PA +2.
HP 070 MP 000 Holy Miter - MA +2.
HP 110 MP 050 Black Hood - No Added Effect.
HP 060 MP 030 Golden Hairpin - Strengthen: Holy, Dark.
HP 080 MP 020 Flash Hat - Initial: Innocent.
HP 060 MP 000 Thief Hat - SP +1, Half: Wind, Earth, Water.

[HEADBAND]
HP 060 MP 060 Focus Band - Immune: Undead, Charm, Innocent, Faith.
HP 040 MP 040 Choice Band - Immune: Dead, Frog, Petrify, Berserk, Sleep, Death Sentence.
HP 020 MP 020 Chakra Band - Immune: Poison, Silence, Blind, Slow, Stop, Don't Move, Don't Act, Oil.

[ARMOR]
HP 160 MP 000 Maximillian - No Added Effects.

[CLOTHES]
HP 080 MP 000 Wizard Outfit - MA +2.
HP 120 MP 030 Brigadine - No Added Effects.
HP 100 MP 020 Santa Outfit - Absorb: Ice, Wind.
HP 080 MP 000 Power Sleeve - PA +2.
HP 090 MP 010 Earth Clothes - Absorb: Earth, Strengthen: Earth.
HP 070 MP 000 Secret Clothes - SP +1.
HP 100 MP 020 Black Costume - Absorb: Fire, Dark.
HP 100 MP 020 Rubber Costume - Absorb: Lightning, Water.

[ROBES]
HP 110 MP 040 Silk Robe - No Added Effects.


(I thought Silk Robe's MP should go up to 50 and expressed discomfort with Chakra Band/Ribbon still blocking so many statuses.

Gaignun disagreed with Golden Hairpin being reduced to 60 HP after losing MP & +1 MA, with the Absorbing Clothes that weren't Earth Clothes getting MP and Brigandine getting 30 MP.)

2. More or less everyone agrees that a "Speed +1" Movement should perhaps exist and, if it does, it should be at least 400 JP, though Gaignun had said he didn't think it should be less than 500 JP. No objected to it going to Ninja.

3. No one seemed to object to Chemist (or another class like Mediator or something) getting the unused "Defend" Support from Squire.

4. Everyone seemed fine with the Ninjato "Short Edge" keeping its accidental 50% Oil proc and being actually, you know, useful.

5. Everyone seemed to agree that Mediator's "Refute" shouldn't be able to cancel Charging & Performing, if only so the AI doesn't stupidly use it on its allies or itself.

6. Agreed that Squire's "Yell" could/should become instant, especially if Masamune remains itself.

7. No one disagreed with Kagesougi losing Don't Act.

8. Everyone agrees that Time Magic(k) and Time Mage need some type of buff...it's just matter of how to do that aside from everyone agreeing that both Haste spells, at the very least, could use a slight buff and that at least Haste 2 & Slow 2 could be a bit cheaper. That and everyone agrees that its Speed shouldn't be 9.

9. Everyone agrees that Air Knife no longer would need to "proc" Sleep even if that aspect of it was actually working.

10. Everyone agrees that Wish needs at least Range 3.

11. Everyone seems to agree with the Monk Overhaul stuff that got its own thread.

12. Similarly, everyone seems to agree with the most recent thing of the Cure overhauls.

13. Everyone agrees that Thief could use a bit more of MP.

14. Everyone agrees that Lancers should get Robes (back?).

15. Everyone tends to agree with Raven's weapon changes, excepting Phoenix Blade, Staves & Spellguns.

16. No one seems to strongly disagree with "Equip Polearm" getting Cloths, "Equip Magegear" getting Harps and "Equip Clothing" getting Headbands (& going to Monk).

17. Everyone generally agreed that, at most, Flare should be 40 MP and maybe 6 CT.

18. Despite almost everyone viewing it as a joke for some reason, everyone agreed that Slasher getting a buff to be usable with Two Swords would be fine (as long as it didn't keep as much of its W-EV) and Battle Axe was at least slightly ridiculous. Thus no one disagreed that Decapitate needs to be reduced to around 50%; people seem relatively ambivalent to my suggestion of re-naming that "proc" "Maim" though.

spoiler: Points of Contention

1. Masamune: Pretty much everyone seems to have differing points of view over this damn thing and what exactly should or shouldn't happen to it.

2. Quickening: This is slightly less divisive and more people just being seemingly indifferent (for some reason). Myself and Wiz at least think it needs to die while Raven and reinoe are more or less fine with it and no one else seems to have said anything else.

3. Time Mages: Despite starting out well with people agreeing with Gaignun's initial changes, this support for that fragmented when formerdeathcorp's suggested Time Mage get 10 speed instead of being reduced to 8. Then Gaignun came back and decided that all Time Mages need on the stat & equipment side was Shields.... Scholar turning into Druid thing kinda forced people's hands about the whole "mage who gets a Shield", but this is rather undecided.

4. Staves: This was somewhat related to Time Mage, but primarily because current Staves, save Mace of Zeus and maybe Wizard Staff, which is just a copy of Wizard Rod (now), aren't usable. That said, pretty much no one can agree on how exactly to fix them outside of vague agreements:

a. Gold Staff needs more W-EV
b. Rainbow Staff should have Block Oil (and fdc seems to disagree with this)
c. Healing Staff needs some type of buff, including maybe even more WP.
d. White Staff should probably be Holy elemental.

Yeah.

5. Spellguns: ...Yeah, you (FFMaster) already know no one agrees on what to do with these things.

6. Oil: I think people generally agree that it could/"should" have a use for teams that have a teams that don't use the six elements that benefit, but no one really agrees how. It doesn't really that most of the suggestions have been...seemingly overpowered or overkill on an already powerful if "selective" status. Everyone seems to agree that at least something else should block it and something else should cure it though.

7. Crystal Shield: As you can see, no one's really sure what to do to replace it this. Everyone knows that it's currently almost entirely pointless though, especially since with P Bag & Light Robe's weaknesses gone, the only thing it covers is Cursed Ring. Too bad that Black Costume or Flame Shield + Santa Outfit or even White Robe all do that better, making this an inferior Escutcheon II on all units save for Lancers, who are getting (back) Robes.

spoiler: Bugs

spoiler: Fixable

1. Geomancer Move for females is not correct in the Master Guide.

2. Geomancer PA & MA is not correct in the Master Guide according to CT5Holy: apparently it should be 10 PA & 8 MA for males and 8 PA & 10 PA for females.

3. Thief's Air Knife isn't adding Sleep as it's "supposed" to, though considering it's OHKO everyone, it really doesn't need to add anything. Please take away its mention of 25% Sleep.

4. Speaking of Knives, Mage Masher is quite incorrect in the Master Guide. It says adds 50% Silence...when it both a) casts Bizen Boat instead and b) is casting Bizen Boat at 100%.

5. Similarly, Repel Knife's description is currently...deceptive if it's working as intentioned since it's adding Don't Act & Haste Separately instead of either both or nothing.

6. Shieldrender & Bow Gun's procs just aren't working.

7. Rainbow Staff still says that it's All elemental when it actually isn't anymore. Please fix this.

8. All the Ninjutsu that say they're supposedly avoidable by M-EV are actually subject to P-EV now.

9. Spellbreaker says that it dispels those statuses at 50% when it's actually 100%.

10. Chaos Blade's instance of "Reraise" is still misspelled as "Reriase".

11. Similarly, Mythril Helmet's "Immune" is still misspelled "Immunel".

12. As Wiz pointed out, Thief & Scholar have their sprite types mixed up or something, which is making Scholar's casting face weird.

13. Formally suggested for "Alacrity" to be renamed "Focus", "Venetian Shield" to be renamed "Zephyr Shield" (in the Master Guide) and that "Ramia Harp" for "Lamia Harp".

14. For Xifanie (I think): "Chronos Tear" is not supposed to be possessive; apparently its "Chrono's Tear" and in-game in the work sheet.

15. Needs to be a clear[er] indication that Bags can be equipped by everyone.

16. As Wiz also pointed out, Summoner's palettes for Yellow & Purple are apparently reversed.

17. "Sand Storm" is still adding Stop instead of Berserk.

18. "Cover Fire"'s formula in the Master Guide isn't correct.

spoiler: Currently Unfixable?

1. Longbows & Crossbows graphically doubling certain attacks, mostly the ruins and "swordskill"-esque abilities; it probably doubles anything that uses the attack animation alongside some other animation that isn't FFFF. Not sure why since I still can't code worth a damn. This has been going on since FFT hacks have started being made though and this hasn't really abated, so....

2. Mimes mysteriously miming most but not all allied actions. Sometimes Mimes will just not repeat actions for reasons that have nothing to do with being inflicted by a status or the targeting being off the map. This is most notable in when a Mime spontaneously fails to mimic Song or Dance, you know, one of the few things it's actually good at presently. IIRC, this has also been around since the "beginning" of hacks and as far as I know, no one has ever really looked into it, so....

3. Math Skill's hard-coding making it so that what is in it's spot not only slows down if multi-targeting, but also making it so that it ignores Reflect. I'm not sure if you (FFMaster) discovered a fix to that yet or if there are any other problems that will pop up because of it.

4. The swords appearing during Draw Out techniques like Masamune. This isn't important or anything, but it gets rather...noticeable given how often Masamune & Kiyomori and just Draw Out in general is being used.

5. The Purple Palette is still seemingly unusable due to its crystals still randomly freezing the game if picked up apparently. Yeah....

Sandy EDIT: I forgot that Sand Storm wasn't working as it "should". That's been changed.

Cover Fire EDIT: Put "Cover Fire"'s formula not being correct in the Master Guide underneath the "Bugs" tab.

Battle Axe EDIT: Edited in Slasher's entry under things "everyone" agrees about.

Mythril Typos EDIT: "Platina Helmet" was supposed to be "Mythril Helmet" from the beginning. Similarly, as should have been fixed from the beginning, most if not all of the typos have been fixed. There were way too many as it was.

[Gaignun]

"For Cover Fire, reducing the Y to 60 doesn't do much, just reduces damage by 10-30 points.  I recommend changing it from (1...3)*(PA+70) to (1...6)*(PA+25)."

This change has already been made.

[The Damned]

(By already "been made", you mean decided upon for 139? Or it's supposed to be in 138?)

Because if it's the latter, then it's not noted in the Master Guide as such.

Similarly, I've gotten the impression that people still think it's too swingy, given teams like you're own. So, while this is more a discussion for the Balance thread, what should be the solution if that one has already been done?

[Dokurider]

Bugs
- BILLIONS OF BUGS FIXED
- Tables updated

Balance
- Ultima MP cost reduced to 20
- Dia is now stopped by Silence
- Spellbreaker formula changed to MA*WP damage
- Cover Fire formula changed to (1...6)*(PA+25)
- Poison JP increased to 100
- All Geomancy becomes Enemy only
- Meiton/Fuuton/Suiton Y reduced to 9
- Berserked units can now use reactions
- Added Movement: Warpath - Adds 2 Brave on Move action, Monk base, 250 JP
- Added Movement: Pilgrimage - Adds 2 Faith on Move action, Priest base, 250 JP

[The Damned]

(So noted and so edited.)

Anything else to be "fixed" with the compiled list?

[reinoe]

Also nobody seems to disagree with Battle AX's decapitate proc hitting for less than 85%.  Setting it to do 55% HP seems fine.  Still devastating, can still kill you.  We won't have to see Equip Ax Priests one-shotting Knights anymore.

[The Damned]

(Okay.)

Forgot to say that I added that pretty much as soon as you said it, reinoe. I had wanted to wait until I fixed the typos in that post, which has been done now, so...yeah. So noted.

Anything else? (I'm currently forgetting something still, but I know it's a general "fix" with the Master Guide at least.)

[reinoe]

I noticed it's been about a week now.  Is there a chance we can get a peek at the 139 changes?  Or maybe even a class and job change once per day so we can argue amongst each other about how good/bad the changes are will be?  I know CCG's do that.  Actually that might even be really cool.

<In the Booming voice of FFMASTER>
Day 1: Here are the changes to Squire

spoiler: Squire Changes

Changes to Squire would be here.

Day 2: The changes to Chemist are held within!

spoiler: Chemist Changes

Nothing here either.  But you get the idea.

Day 16: Last but not least here is the new Class you've all been waiting for!

spoiler: Druid Class

A bunch of stuff here

[FFMaster]

Because there's nothing set in stone yet. I've been ironing out newly found bugs in the new system, and it's not going well, to say the least. Don't expect anything, but if you want something to debate about, here:

MIMES(if everything goes to plan)
- Mimes lose all innates
- Mimes lose a ton of stats across the board
- Mimes can now equip all equipment except for weapons
- Mimes can now equip RSM

[Dokurider]

Lore spam here I come!

[Malroth]

I love this change too bad we can't give them secondaries but the presence of Magic attack up, teleporting, Counter magic Mimes has me looking forward to the future.

[FFMaster]

Update: The item attribute extend hack works, but there are some very odd display issues. I've managed to track them down and will fix them soon. However, a major problem with this hack is that you will not be able to open the ISO in FFTPatcher.

[reinoe]

Because there's nothing set in stone yet. I've been ironing out newly found bugs in the new system, and it's not going well, to say the least. Don't expect anything, but if you want something to debate about, here:

MIMES(if everything goes to plan)
- Mimes lose all innates
- Mimes lose a ton of stats across the board
- Mimes can now equip all equipment except for weapons
- Mimes can now equip RSM

"Except Weapons"  So Mimes can equip shields?  Seconding what Dokurider says.  Short Circuit is no longer going to be unique in what it does.  Also does this mean that Mimes are going to have a JP cap of 3000?

[FFMaster]

It is also possible to give them a secondary skillset if people want. Considering they can get RSM, yes, they will need to have the JP cap.

Unfortunately... another problem has arisen...