Should there be a social and a serious FFH IRC channel?

[Eternal]

I'm planning on implementing a second FFH IRC channel due to the recent surge of activity on the main channel. The two channels would be #ffh (for hacking/patch purposes, a serious chat where people can discuss their patch/other patches/other modding stuff freely) and #ffh_social (for non-serious chatting, fun, random conversations, etc.) This way it would be less difficult for people to help others in the serious channel without interfering with the social aspect of our community. Thoughts?

[RavenOfRazgriz]

This is honestly a complete waste of time.  Firstly, the vast majority of #FFH users are either idlers or social users.  Yeah, the channel's grown - but again, almost all of them are social.  Even the majority of our serious users pretty much double as social users.  It's annoying at times when you want to talk serious and no one helps, but for the most part that's handled through PMs.  Large group hacking discussions are rarely needed, and the few times they have been, someone organizes #FFHS, drops it in the main chat, and... all of 3-4 people ever join it.  Ever.  I have never seen it break 4 people. 

This is just a complete waste of time.  It really is. All you're doing is needlessly splitting people's attention between multiple windows, meaning they'll eventually come to ignore one of them in favor of the other... and with our crowd, that window that gets ignored will almost always be the serious one, because most of the serious discussions happen here on the forum, not on iRC.  That's just the law of the land - people dislike having their attention divided more than necessary, so something will die off, and it will be #FFHS outside of the rare times its needed for something.  The current setup is fine... and really we don't even have that many users.  As said before, the vast majority of them idle.  Even looking at iRC RIGHT NOW, I see... 9 active users.  Of those, one is currently AFK and just still listed as Active, one is Serdash, who is almost always idling except at like 3am when no-one's on, and one is Efrate, whose rarely on iRC.  Usually, we gun 5-6 active users almost any time I've been on iRC. 

In addition to ALL OF THIS, this has an extra problem - users on #FFHS using it for serious discussion will be missing out on a large sum of input from people, considering it's the minority channel, and those people (those of the social channel) largely represent the playerbase hacks, mods, etc. will be geared toward, so their input is key.  So even on that level, you can't get a proper perspective of how good your ideas even are because you're likely only getting your input from like-minded users, considering the general low number of people I've seen ever use #FFHS when its assembled, and the fact they're almost always the exact same people.  (Myself, FDC, FFMaster, sometimes Pride and Aquilae, but rarely so.  I imagine Pokeytax and Glain would use it if they used iRC more often, but otherwise...)

Again, complete waste of goddamn time, serves almost no purpose, as far as I can see.  You can add it as a second channel and ensure it opens when Mibbit/PJIRC are clicked, since both channels NEED to open immediately if you want this have any chance of ever taking off, but it still seems like a bad idea.

[Celdia]

Don't change the existing chat channel if you're going to do this. Leave #ffh as the social channel and the welcoming place for new users to chat. Make an official #ffh_technical channel for when people need to talk about coding and patches in a more serious forum. You might even see if someone can set up a bot to log everything in the technical channel and upload it to a pastebin periodically to keep notes for the users in there to be able to go back and review. I was typing this originally when your post included nominations for channel mods so I'll leave this here: For an OP in a technical channel, I'd go with formerdeathcorps, secondadvent and/or FFMaster if only because they are frequently online and they do babble about various projects more than anyone else I've noticed.

Just to go on record with this, I don't think we have any need for a second IRC channel. At most we have 30 active members on chat, and rarely are that many people actually IN chat at the same time. For the most part, at least from what I see, discussion on patches themselves is generally a non-serious topic to begin with and wouldn't have any benefit from being separated from a social channel. Hell, I have to beg people to post about my patch on the forum because no one has anything to say about it. The only time it gets particularly serious in chat is when people start discussing code in detail. It doesn't happen all that often as it is and I don't think it really needs its own channel but I suppose some people could see things like a bunch of hex addresses and ASM code as spammy and not want it disrupting their conversations, but in the years I've been here #ffh has been a social place and not so much a technical one. During the rare times someone comes in with a question and they're not willing to wait for an answer on the forum, it usually gets answered with due haste if anyone knowledgeable is around and then things go back to the status quo - being social.

When other things involving people from #ffh have come up and it was deemed to disruptive to continue discussion in the main chat, those people have gone off and made their own chat rooms as needed. It requires no more effort than a /join command and that new channel will persist for as long as its needed. I can't imagine there is really a great outcry for another channel, nor any serious need for one to exist and be moderated by us. I could be wrong but I really don't think so. I'm also not under any delusions that a serious IRC channel is going to attract new members that otherwise wouldn't come over and talk with us. If this was spawned as an issue of image then its just full of hubris in thinking we are big enough that our image is that important.

In the end I feel this will just end up with two chat rooms - one with all the people that are already in #ffh and another with nobody but a couple of mods in it and whoever gets redirected there from our IRC links on the forum.

[formerdeathcorps]

I agree with having one, but not with officially having one that always has someone there as a moderator.

1) I'm the primary user and organizer of #FFHS.  Celdia and Raven are the primary organizers of RP channels.  THis needn't be formalized.
2) #FFH should be our social channel.  Most people come to have fun, not talk about things they may not know about.
3) The second channel is only used when there is important business to discuss with 2+ people.  Otherwise, I just use PMs.
4) There's a dual trap here.  If the channel is secret to stop spamming, it beats the whole point of open dialogue.  Plus, you can't really be secret...someone can check your ID on iRC and find out all the channels you are in.  If the channel is open, spammers will enter and be kicked out.  If they're relatively immature or new to #ffh, they may complain or never return.  Thus, I see no reason with formalizing the concept, though I do agree having a second channel is nice to discuss serious work with an open invitation for all who are interested to be posted on #ffh.  This is how we currently handle LPs and streams and it should be how we handle invitations to #ffhs.  Once business is done, #ffhs should be abandoned.  Think of it as an ad hoc hideout.

[Zaen]

Raven, that comment was a complete waste of time.

My response to your first paragraph is a waste of time. Who cares if the majority is social users? Isn't this a hacking site with the first priority being working on projects and hacks? Complaining about this is a waste of time.

Again, you're wasting your time. How is making an IRC channel a waste of time? It takes almost no time to make one, and not much more for a little tab at the top of the forum. Stupid complaint (and a waste of time).

What another great waste of time! Since there's no rule saying people can't be on both channels at the same time, people are FREE to ask of input from the social channel! Just because it's social, that doesn't mean they can't talk FFT and hacks/projects from time to time. Proof-read your thoughts, please.

I can't believe I wasted my time on your wasted time, as this serves almost no purpose, as far as I can see. You can be against adding this as a second channel, though I don't see the NEED for both channels to open immediately, as this can take off with an additional tab, and it still seems like a great idea.

[Xifanie]

I tend to go with fdc's points. I rarely need to talk to more than one specific person about hacking. If the main chat is too cluttered I normally just take it to PM. If there was an official FFH channel, I'm not sure I would even use it to be honest. I'm not against the idea, but the best way to get most people's opinion and all will always remain the main FFH chat... I doubt people will tend to chat on one channel and keep track of what's going in the other.

[Celdia]

@Zaen: Instead of attacking someone else's post how about you tell us why you think this would be a great idea? I'm curious to hear the pro-channel stance on this. Same request to the other two (as of now) people that voted yes.

[Pickle Girl Fanboy]

I have no opinion, since I can't get on it anymore.

[Zaen]

I feel no need to do anything else, as by attacking his post, I made all of my points.

But since everybody thinks this is an awful idea, I'll promote it.

It's a kind of a work channel where people can go to communicate and share ideas without the distraction of the mostly mindless nonsense that inevitably happens in the main channel. That's all that needs to be said. It's simple, has no draw-backs, and it takes almost no effort to make.

[dinosaur]

Don't separate the community even more.

Sometime the social people want (or should) hear the serious side of hacking. That is how I became educated about hacking then had the ability to start hacking!

It is good for everyone to hear the serious and the social.

I think having seperation will especially hurt newcomers and create more of an  inconvenience.

Although, I do know what you mean about the heavy traffic in chat. I don't think this is the best choice....

[Joseph Strife]

I don't think we need to separate the channel into two, this is sounding like the close spam trollolol, of course we have objectives here like hacking and giving people opportunities to make their dreams of FFT coming true, but we do this socializing with everybody, if someone have need to disccus things in a better "place" without many people talknig, joking, and working on patches, that's what PM is there for. For me it is as good as it is, i myself don't go on chat too much, only often and i woudn't like to keep track on both two channels, only one is good enough. I think we sould just have 1 channel and that's my opinion.

[Cheetah]

It's easy to just do private chats when you want to get serious. I would just keep it as one. The only thing I would want is to be able to invite more than one other person into a private chat.

[Serdash]

I feel no need to do anything else, as by attacking his post, I made all of my points.

Actually you sounded like a cocky, smartassed fool. 

It's a kind of a work channel where people can go to communicate and share ideas without the distraction of the mostly mindless nonsense that inevitably happens in the main channel. That's all that needs to be said. It's simple, has no draw-backs, and it takes almost no effort to make.

No effort to make, sure, but why bother when it will hardly get used properly?

Here are the scenarios I see.

Social Channel: Channel A
SERIAL CHANNEL: Channel B

Person comes into channel B looking for discussion/asking questions because this is the chat designed for such a purpose and they have been directed there.

The chat has a decent number of people, but nobody knows the answer to a specific question.  Hey, SmartGuy knows the answer!  But he's over in channel A

Person pops into Channel A, asks SmartGuy question, question is answered, Channel B has become useless.

Okay, okay, that's a stretch, how about this?

How often do these serious discussion topics and whatnot come up in chat?  How often are they interrupted or hard to follow because of other conversations going on?

The fact that it's SO easy to make a channel, how about... oh I don't know, make one really quick so you can invite the people involved? 

Instead of making a new channel for a bunch of people to idle in and not talk, or a place that a set of mods have to join every day to make sure nothing bad is happening, just create your own channel if you feel like you're getting sidetracked by other stuff in the main chat?

What if two or three different serious discussions are going on at once?  Is that not the same as having a channel flooded by "dumb shit" that's bothering you in the first place?

Screw the "it's a waste of time" argument.  It's just incredibly UNNECESSARY.

[Kaijyuu]

I'll just pop in and throw out my worthless view.


I don't see the point of a "serious" channel. That kind of takes the fun out of it. I do however see the point of a specialized channel. Maybe a channel for assembly hacking. Maybe a channel for spriting. And if, in the end, these channels die out due to lack of activity, there's always the main one to go back to.

So in essence, let people make their own channels for whatever they want, and then channel size and focus will moderate themselves. Current channel too big and unfocused? Split it. Channel dying? Merge it. People shouldn't need your permission to do this.

[FFMaster]

Eh, voted no. It's true that it's not hard to make a separate channel, but is there enough serious discussion to warrant one? Most of the time, I just get PM's from people asking about small hacking issues or questions about whether X is possible. When a big discussion happens, it's easy for the people involved to move to a different channel if needed, like we have done before. A separate hacking channel would get almost no use by the way, it's not like we are discussing new innovations every day, let alone every week.

So my question to the 4 people who voted yes (so far) is this: Is it really necessary to make 2 channels at this time? We can make more if it gets too large, sure. But right now, I see it as just complicating things for no reason.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

I find it funny how almost every person who has ever used #FFHS has voted no, unless Pride is one of the random 4 people supporting this idea and didn't post anything.

I think that sums up the entire thing really - if the majority of the people who actually make their own channel when they want to discuss 4srs hacking things don't want this, why bother?  Not even your primary target audience is interested in this idea, from the looks of it.

[Kalas]

The chat's already dead as is. -.-

[GeneralStrife]

I voted no, just because no one would be on the serious channel. or everyone would be on the serious channel and not be serious. seems like everytime I go on chat its unfamiliar people that never show up on the forum talking about god knows what besides Hacking FFT

[Lijj]

General Strife your vote doesn't count.

[GeneralStrife]

General Strife your vote doesn't count.

I'm wounded Lijj, why is that eh? Is it because I don't haz a smooth port?