Dad Confronts Abortion Protesters At Clinic

[Jon]

Alright, I have a few questions then, especially for Arch who once was Christian, now turned atheist. You know probably because of your upbringing about "miracles", not only in Christian churches (Catholic, Protestant, ect.), but other religions altogether as well. How can you explain things like healing rivers, where sick and crippled people literally go and get fully healed? One example right off of the top of my head is Lourdes (I hope I spelt it right, haha). You as a former Catholic, I am nearly totally sure you've heard of that place in France. Explain stuff like that atheist-boy. Oh wait, you can't. There is no way to prove something like that with logic or science. Yet the thousands of left crutches at the river is proof of the healings, plus the thousands of testamonies. You think those people who were termanilly sick or crippled pretended to go to what to you probably seems a "magical" river to get healed? You think that they are crazy? Or the little girl who dug in the mud to create a river out of nothingness? Explain the events at medjugorje. (Yeah, too all you non-Catholics, you might get a bit confused, sorry) Look, its all you atheists who are so damn lazy to investigate these "magic mysteries" that we Christians call miracles that are blinding you, to the truth. Please stop trying to convince me with all this atheist bull shit, I won't change because I too at first was skeptical about miracles, until I investigated them myself. I know that this can't be done over night, but please look just into these 2 things and you might come to understand why I think the way I do. Please don't just look at it for like 5 seconds and jump out with more atheist stuff, really investigate if you would be so kind, then explain. I believe and know in G0d. Maybe you just need to see some true miracles...

[philsov]

Explain stuff like that atheist-boy. Oh wait, you can't.

Look, its all you atheists who are so damn lazy

all this atheist bull shit

And you call out Arch for being rude?  Holy crap.  Be civil.

Real response later, but honestly Jon, you've kinda stooped =\

[Jon]

Fine fine, I will try to remain civil from now on, but I am waiting for an explaination please. Sorry if I was rude. I guess I got a little outta hand since everyone here seems mostly atheist...

[Odal]

Oh wow, haha, this thread is worse than I realized.  I didn't notice it was at 8 pages, turned into a thread about religion, and the original post was from last month.  Well so much for bashing on TYT (they make it sooo easy).  And I'm definitely not getting involved in this dead-horse religion debate Dirt slinging.

And that's all it is.  He could've calmly said, "Ma'am, I know you're against abortion, but let me tell you my story..."  They probably could've had a more civil conversation than that and, who knows, he may have even convinced them that he was right.  No one can listen when everyone is busy yelling.[/spoiler]

[Archael]

Jon: Testimonies aren't proof. And yes, I know of the miracles you speak of, I studied them all. There is not a single recorded case in medical history of a person "miraculously" recovering from anything. People survive illness, yes. People also die from illness. That doesn't mean there is some divine hand at work, and is hardly proof of any spiritual presence deciding who lives and who dies.

There's thousands of people that claim that they have been visited by aliens and taken to other galaxies, that doesn't make it true or constitute as proof. I can tell you that I was visited by g0d. Does that make it true?

I was in a car accident and my guts were spilling out of me. Then Allah came down from the sky and touched me and I saw my wounds heal and then I was fine. Do you believe me? Is my testimonial proof enough for you to believe me? Why don't you believe in Allah now? My miracle should be proof that He exists. How come you're not a Muslim!?! BELIEVE IN ME DAMMIT!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence

Not a single "miracle" constitutes demonstrable, provable evidence and even less scientific evidence.

[DaveSW]

My internet dies for a few days and when I come back, it is filled with stupidity and Arch kicking ass.

Arch- I know now why so many people hate you:  you are incredibly intelligent and not afraid to show it.  Kudos.

I really can't add anything that Arch hasn't covered already, so all I can really say is that I know, without a shadow of a doubt, that all religion is utter bull-shit, and anyone who thinks science is a religion is a fucking moron.

Science is the pursuit of knowledge, regardless of whether or not we like the truth.   If g0d was real, science would seek to prove it.
I strongly suggest everyone go to rationalwiki.com and read, a lot.

[Shade]

You made your point, and I understand it, the problem is that it's the dumbest point in the entire thread, Shade.

And your point was this, and btw my argument was going againts this.

How insane your religion sounds to those that aren't indoctrinated.

So yeah if we would not have schools, we would not about science, but neither religions, both of them would be weird to teach someone that is from tribe, that hasn't been told about these things at young age.

^^
This was my point.

My english doesn't really suck(-10 from last exam), my typing sucks, ALOT.

[Odal]

I was in a car accident and my guts were spilling out of me. Then Allah came down from the sky and touched me and I saw my wounds heal and then I was fine. Do you believe me? Is my testimonial proof enough for you to believe me? Why don't you believe in Allah now? My miracle should be proof that He exists. How come you're not a Muslim!?! BELIEVE IN ME DAMMIT!

I love the argument that something must have evidence for it to be believed in.

There's thousands of people that claim the Earth is round, that doesn't make it true.
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/foru ... board=10.0

Damn it!  I said I wouldn't get into the religion argument, but it's sucks me in, man :\  And I'm not even religious, lol.

[Jon]

See, Arch is lazy. He has time to find any piece of crap posted on the internet for us to read, but I ask him to just look into what I posted and he snaps back at me as if I was crazy. Like I said, are the thousands of crutches left behind and testamonies crazy?! Why would thousands of people even bother to do something like that in the first place if it wasn't real, and besides that, they are all confirmed, none get published to the public that aren't 100% reliable. If there is the slightest doubt, then it doesn't get published. I never said Voldemort wasn't intelligent, in fact I don't doubt that you are. Its just that you are also extremely arrogant, lazy and mostly talking through your emotions. Well, I can understand, I was once a little kid too living by pure feelings. I am not even gonna comment on DaveSW, he is just like those religious Christians just yelling out on the street. No difference at all. Except he is the atheist. I just wonder why testamonies are suddenly not good enough proof. Arch, wasn't it you who posted the Pew crap? Surveys are more or less testamonies, c'mon, can you really trust what someone else tells you? You can trust some organization, but you can't trust photographs, testamonies, fucking youtube videos of people telling about their experiences? Just stop. Read the post I made at the very top of this page (8). Try to explain either one of those 2 with reason, not by snapping out "blahblahblah testamonies don't count because I am Voldemort the ass clown who is fucking lazy." Just try. I looked at all of your posts of wikis, youtube videos and the other stuff with a very clear and serious mind, not a hot blooded mind like you seem to have. And your 5 second made up testamony of Allah just further shows that you are either lazy or scared to check out something that you cannot prove. As for Dave, I have no idea why you are so aggresive and filled with pure hate against anyone who believes in anything, so try to chill a bit and check out what I wrote as well.

[Xifanie]

Jon, to be quite frank I saw a report on TV about that specific river...
They studied the number of "cures" and out of 10,000 ill people 32 people recovered, when there was no hope.
And that's the same ratio as anywhere else in the world; not just for that cure-all river. Meaning there is nothing miraculous happening.

Yes some people heal.
No it's not a miracle, they would have healed anyway.

Science is advanced but we can't predict everything. The human body is a wonderful organism that sometimes pull of impressive stunts.... sometimes.

[Jon]

You're wrong, the river in Lourde doesn't always heal, that is true, but there are thousands of crutches, wheel chairs and testamonies. I too am not sure why some get healed, some don't. And isn't it funny Zodiac, you said it yourself in a "matter of fact way": 32 with no hope to be healed, healed. WTF? And you are still an atheist...

For some no proof is needed, and they believe. For others, no amount of proof will ever be enough.

[Xifanie]

Hey mister, did anyone say doctors were perfect? If they are trained in the 90s, now in 2010 they lack 20 years of new information.
And also, we don't know everything.

I never claimed that. But if doctors can tell you're going to die and not heal, and that they're right 99.68% of the time, I wouldn't even bother trying your cure-all river and would enjoy the rest of life I have left. If I survive outside the doc's expectations then cool.

Those healings are not miraculous. They are simply unexpected.
Else we would only see xtians getting "miraculous" healings.

[Archael]

but there are thousands of crutches, wheel chairs and testamonies.

Jon: Testimonies aren't proof.

For some no proof is needed, and they believe.

Exactly! Just like I believe in Zeus. I have no proof, but I believe he exists. Does that make him real? No.

Or Odin, or Allah, or Cthulhu. Some people believe in them without proof. Does that make them real? No.

See where I'm going now?  Belief in something is zero indication of it's existence.

All of humanity could convert to Islam tomorrow. Would that mean you are wrong, Jon?

Would that make Allah real?

What do you say to the Muslim? The Orthodox Jew? The Hindu? Are they wrong, and you are right?

[Jon]

Thats the point though! Some of those people weren't dying! Read carefully, they left their crutches and wheel chairs behind. Most people who are crippled are not dying, they are physically disabled through disease, birth, war or anything else. They go to the river, pray and get healed and walk out. You cannot explain that.

@Voldemort: Reread everything I posted. I never once said in which diety I believe, all I said was I believe in G0d. I am far from arrogant btw in real life.

[Archael]

@Voldemort: Reread everything I posted. I never once said in which diety I believe, all I said was I believe in G0d. I am far from arrogant btw in real life.

Then you aren't religious. You're just a deist. You believe in X Y Z supernatural creator entity to which you ascribe the attributes you feel like that deity possesses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

Deism is the standpoint that reason and observation of the natural world, without the need for organized religion, can determine that a supreme being created the universe. Further the term often implies that this supreme being does not intervene in human affairs or suspend the natural laws of the universe. Deists typically reject supernatural events such as prophecy and miracles, tending to assert that God (or "The Supreme Architect") has a plan for the universe that is not to be altered by intervention in the affairs of human life. Deists believe in the existence of God, on purely rational grounds, without any reliance on revealed religion or religious authority or holy books.

There's thousands of deists out there, all with their own interpretations of what this "g0d" is. All with zero evidence behind it's existence, just like religious claims.

Anyway, Jon, what do you say to the Muslim? The Orthodox Jew? The Hindu? Are they wrong, and you are right? Is their g0d false, and yours real?

All of humanity could convert to Islam tomorrow. Would that mean you are wrong, Jon?

Would that make Allah real? And your g0d is false?

[Jon]

Wrong! I do believe in one certain G0d, I just am not going to tell you, Voldemort! Why do you always say 0 evidence? I mean come on, lets look at this at least from the correct perspective: are you saying that all the people in the entire world who believe in some G0d are just crazy? Can you truly say, that the millions of believers (whether it be G0d, Allah, Budah, or anything else) are just fantansizing it all? That they are just believing because they have nothing better to do? This is why I say you are arrogant, you are nobody to say something like that. I think the problem is that we have forgotten to be honest. Forgotten where we all originally have come from and where we will be going once we are dead. Now for the last time (I hope), please just once, instead of posting more stuff like you just did, try to explain, after doing just a little research "miracles". I gave 2 examples at the very top of this page (8).

[Archael]

Wrong! I do believe in one certain G0d, I just am not going to tell you, Voldemort!

That's awfully convenient. Why not, if I may ask? What's so secretive about your ONE particular g0d?

Also, stop putting arguments in my mouth and answer my question:

What do you say to the Muslim? The Orthodox Jew? The Hindu? Are they wrong, and you are right? Is their g0d false, and yours real?

All of humanity could convert to Islam tomorrow. Would that mean you are wrong, Jon?

Would that make Allah real? And your g0d is false?

are you saying that all the people in the entire world who believe in some G0d just crazy?
Can you truly say, that the millions of believers (whether it be G0d, Allah, Budah, or anything else) are just fantansizing it all?
That they are just believing because they have nothing better to do?

No. Those people honestly believe in their particular g0ds. That doesn't make those g0ds real, though.

Please, understand: People believing in something DOES NOT make something real.

I think the problem is that we have forgotten to be honest. Forgotten where we all originally have come from and where we will be going once we are dead.

No, the problem is that you keep typing walls of text without addressing the points that are being brought up in this thread.

No one knows where we all originally came from.

Not me, not you, not anyone.

However, unlike you, us Atheists ADMIT to not knowing, because there is no proof of where we came from.

[Shade]

Anyway, Jon, what do you say to the Muslim? The Orthodox Jew? The Hindu? Are they wrong, and you are right? Is their g0d false, and yours real?

All of humanity could convert to Islam tomorrow. Would that mean you are wrong, Jon?

Would that make Allah real? And your g0d is false?

Anyway, Arch, what do you say to the Muslim? The Orthodox Jew? The Hindu? Are they wrong, and you are right? Is their ideology false, and yours real?
All of humanity could convert to Islam tomorrow. Would that mean you are wrong, Arch?
Would that make Allah real? And your ideology is false?


I am serious by the way.

[Jon]

There are as many paths to G0d as there are religions.

[Archael]

All of humanity could convert to Islam tomorrow. Would that mean you are wrong, Arch?
Would that make Allah real?

No.

Because I think evidence proves things, not BELIEF, like Jon is saying.

There are as many paths to G0d as there are religions.

Address the points being brought up, or stop posting.

are you saying that all the people in the entire world who believe in some G0d just crazy?
Can you truly say, that the millions of believers (whether it be G0d, Allah, Budah, or anything else) are just fantansizing it all?
That they are just believing because they have nothing better to do?

No. Those people honestly believe in their particular g0ds. That doesn't make those g0ds real, though.

Please, understand: People believing in something DOES NOT make something real.

I think the problem is that we have forgotten to be honest. Forgotten where we all originally have come from and where we will be going once we are dead.

No, the problem is that you keep typing walls of text without addressing the points that are being brought up in this thread.

No one knows where we all originally came from.

Not me, not you, not anyone.

However, unlike you, us Atheists ADMIT to not knowing, because there is no proof of where we came from. You want to be honest? Honesty = accepting that you don't have the answer.

Once you ACCEPT that no one has the answers to life and death, you will understand why every religion is BS.

Every religion claims they have the answer. Are all of them wrong, except yours?