Dad Confronts Abortion Protesters At Clinic

[Archael]

What's funny is that you write on the topic criticizing ideas when you clearly dont have much understanding of what is being said, handing out respect points like you even have a clue about what PGF is actually saying.

BTW- I can't erase anything in General forum, im not a mod here. Since you're talking about R, the reason I deleted his threads wasnt even because I disagreed with them (read my apology letter). Thanks for bringing up a completely unrelated and irrelevant incident though, that just shows you have no real interest in discussing the actual topic imo.

It sounds more like you have an undefined or neutral position in this case, but that doesnt mean you shouldnt read up on the subject a little before posting and declaring anything "pointless".

[Jon]

Umm, you are the one going on and on about religion, not me - this was originally a question of abortion, not whether or not G0d exists. Besides, I can't prove to you that G0d exists, just like you can't prove to me that he doesn't. And please don't post any more youtube crap, that doesn't convince anyone anyways.

[Archael]

Besides, I can't prove to you that G0d exists, just like you can't prove to me that he doesn't.

I seriously need to make a copy-paste document because I've run into this one sooo many times.

Religious people make religious claims. An example of this is "The Christian g0d exists". We can't prove that this g0d exists, like you said, because there is no evidence to support his existence.

And we can't DISPROVE that he exists, because there is no evidence against him as well! Any evidence that goes against g0d can be explained away by any magical excuse you can come up with in your head. Examples "You can't see g0d, he is invisible. He is also undetectable by science. He is also outside out universe, but interacts with it. He is not part of nature, but he made nature. He is unknowable, but makes himself known to some when he chooses, but not when people go looking for him."  You can literally make up any sort of excuse as to why your g0d can't be disproven.

We believe the validity of claims based on the existence of evidence to support them, and in this case, the evidence required for a claim as large as this one is extraordinary.
The lack of evidence against something is not grounds for establishing a default position of neutrality on the validity of the claim.

What you're doing is basically saying: "There is no evidence for the existence of Velius, but there's no evidence against him either, so let's leave it at that. It's pointless to discuss."
No, dude, that's not how it works (at-least not if you're a rational thinking human being).

 Killing any sort of rational discussion with this attitude is the most intellectually stagnating thing you can possibly do.

There is no evidence for the existence of Velius, so we don't believe his existence UNTIL evidence that supports his existence surfaces.
Until then, Velius (and g0d) are in the "Why should I believe you?" category.

There is no evidence for the existence of rainbow tentacle malboros from outer space, either. I guess we can't disprove them, so believe in them is warranted, yes?


The fact that I need to explain this to you just confirms what I already knew, you were just chiming in and declaring the whole g0d discussion a "pointless waste of time" because you probably haven't even bothered to look up this information or you just don't care. Which is OK I guess, but if we want to discuss the existence of dieties, let us. The thread has some heavy religious connotation, and there is no rule against this kind of discussion here.

[Jon]

Whoa, slow down there. I don't do research? You are the one who just is an atheist for the hell of it. Look, stop judging me. I don't know you and you sure as hell don't know me. I never whipped out stuff like "atheists are morons" or any crap like that. It seems to me that you are just doing research trying as hard as you can with your logic that there is no G0d, instead of actually checking on what you would most likely call "these so called proofs". I could point you easily enough in the right direction to "try and explain this with your logic", but whats the point? You would probably laugh or make fun of whatever I post, just like all atheists are so good at. Also, I wasn't just "chiming in", geez man I have my own opinions. Also right there was your problem, you said lets discuss the existence of dieties, even though you have no knowledge whatsoever about any G0d, whether it be the Christian's and Jew's G0d(which view point of Christian by the way? Catholic, Protestant or one of its hundreds of branches? Sects?), Allah, Budah, or anything else. Voldemort, the more you try to make me look like a fool, the sadder you look. Thats why I agree with GS, your ignorance, arrogance and your "rational" thinking are what seem to be blinding you. Look, I don't have something like a goal or anything to turn you into a believer, in fact I don't even want to get involved with your bizarre way of thinking, its depressing. You always think like this: If you don't prove it, I don't believe it. You must be hell to live with, making everyone around you annoyed. I'm right aren't I? I bet people just love your bitching.

[Archael]

You always think like this: If you don't prove it, I don't believe it. You must be hell to live with,

I don't approach EVERY claim like that. Just the ones that claim that an all-powerful, all-knowing, time-less, misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic g0d exists.

Also right there was your problem, you said lets discuss the existence of dieties, even though you have no knowledge whatsoever about any G0d, whether it be the Christian's and Jew's G0d(which view point of Christian by the way? Catholic, Protestant or one of its hundreds of branches? Sects?), Allah, Budah, or anything else.

Actually, I was raised a christian and attended a Jesuit high school and then university (Marquette University). I have studied every major religion in a college-room setting. I'm an atheist for a reason. I'm willing to bet I've studied religion a lot more than you as well as a great deal of people who subscribe to a particular religious belief.

You are the one who just is an atheist for the hell of it.

I am by no means an atheist "just for the hell of it". I am an atheist as a result of my education. Learning about every religion and the problems it faces (mainly the negative-proof issue described above) is one of the primary reasons I am an atheist.

I work with statistics, research, and strategy for my IRL job. Pew Research is one of the fact-tanks I buy information from on a regular basis. Check out what they found:
Pew Research Center: Atheists Know More About Religion Than Believers

your ignorance, arrogance and your "rational" thinking are what seem to be blinding you

OH NO MY RATIONAL THINKING!!! WE'RE GOING TO HELLLLLL!!!!!!!!!

That comment is sickening. Are you going to persecute me for my rational thinking? Like your beloved religion persecuted scientists and scholars for ages trying to suppress and silence their "rational, scientific" thinking? Go to hell, Jon. (Irony!)

[Jon]

You still haven't told me what Christian denomination you originate from. "Raised as a Christian" is pretty bleak. Which one exactly? Plus, wtf does the Pew Research Center have to do with anything? You work with statistics, research and strategy (now I sound like Snake repeating everything), and buy info from them, but in the survey it says nowhere who the people were who were interviewed, it seems a bit sketchy to be honest. I can believe that Atheists, Jews and Mormons know more, but like I said, who were the interviewees? People off of the street? Surveys like this are always wishy washy, I mean to find Catholics, Protestants and Hispanic Catholics in America are easy enough, same for atheists, but finding (also how many of each group? Hopefully not just 1 person) the others brings doubt in my mind right away due to the fact that they are minorities. Plus this is only for America, which already tells me its made in America = at best wishy washy. Imagine the interviewer is atheist and puts this entire thing in any light he pleases.

[Archael]

You still haven't told me what Christian denomination you originate from. "Raised as a Christian" is pretty bleak. Which one exactly?

I was raised catholic. And why does that matter, exactly? The point is that I was raised in a very religious setting, attending a very religious high school, attended a very religious university, and the more I learned about religion, the more atheist I became.

it seems a bit sketchy to be honest. Imagine the interviewer is atheist and puts this entire thing in any light he pleases.

Are you serious? Pew Research is one of the most respected independent research organizations in the planet. Statements like these make religious people look bad - delusional to the point where they will try and dismiss anything that contradicts their beliefs. Seriously, now you're just looking dumb all on your own, I don't even need to try.

http://pewresearch.org/about/

The Pew Research Center is a nonpartisan "fact tank" that provides information on the issues, attitudes and trends shaping America and the world. It does so by conducting public opinion polling and social science research; by analyzing news coverage; and by holding forums and briefings. It does not take positions on policy issues.

The Center's work is carried out by seven projects:

    * Pew Research Center for the People & the Press
    * Pew Research Center's Project for Excellence in Journalism
    * Pew Internet & American Life Project
    * Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life
    * Pew Hispanic Center
    * Pew Global Attitudes Project
    * Pew Social & Demographic Trends Project

The Pew Research Center is a non-profit, tax-exempt corporation which operates under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Service code. It was established in 2004 as a subsidiary of The Pew Charitable Trusts, a Philadelphia-based public charity. Financial information is available upon request to Nikolas Wissmann, Director of Financial Administration.



After reading your idiotic dismissal of Pew Research as a reputable source, I am now convinced that you are zealous about your beliefs to the point where anything that contradicts them is just dismissed, just like you try to do with the stupid "but you can't disprove that He exists" fallacy, which you still ignored (probably cuz you have no answer to it).

To you, anyone and anything that contradicts your particular, learned, geographical, coincidental belief system is just "blinded by rationality". The irony is, atheists like me accept evidence as it comes, and change our view of the world with it, yet you call that being "blind, ignorant, and arrogant". That's the kicker!!

You keep bringing up non-issues (such as the specificity of my christian upbringing, accusations of pew research being atheist biased, that I'm an atheist "just for the hell of it", accusations that I have no religious knowledge when that is obviously not the case, and other irrelevant shit) into this discussion in a sad effort to avoid the issues at hand, Jon. I can't tell you how many religious loons I've seen doing this little dance over the internet.

Like Asmo told me once when I was trying to hold an untenable position: You don't have a leg to stand on.

[Wiz]

http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5847

^
Read that Jon.

Reaffirming what Arch said: The "prove a negative" argument is void. It's impossible to prove something's NON-EXISTENCE [same goes with any Diety(-ies)]. At the same time though, that doesn't mean they do exist because there's the lack of evidence for them. That's why I choose to believe/think they don't exist, hence making me an agnostic atheist.

Make your choice

Are you an Agnostic Theist? You believe in a g0d(s) but you don't claim to KNOW of it's existence? IE: Unknowable g0d claim that you believe in.
Are you an Agnostic Atheist? You don't believe in a g0d(s) but you don't claim to KNOW it's non-existence? IE: Unknowable g0d claim that you don't believe in.
Are you an Gnostic Theist? You believe in a g0d(s) and you claim to KNOW of it's existence? IE: Knowable, personal g0d that you believe in.

You forgot to add Gnostic Atheist Arch XD


In regards to the Pew Forum Poll, here's an oral analysis making it MUCH EASIER TO UNDERSTAND (the #'s/stats and what they mean).

spoiler: TheAmazingAtheist...SUBSCRIBE!:2ibgk43s

I think he got one of the stats wrong, but hey, it's hard to keep track of everything.

[Archael]

Read that Jon.

[philsov]

Btw, even if you don't believe in G0d, [...] but you sorta understand the idea/fact that G0d is omni-potent and omni-scient, then you should obviously understand that we (as humans) cannot understand or comprehend G0d, otherwise he wouldn't be G0d.

Omnipotent
Omniscient
Benevolent

Pick two.

[Jon]

Tell me then one thing, what do you alone believe. Up until now you all as atheists post what other people have to say and think, but not once have you come out and said exactly what you, alone, think. I mean I am betting that atheists all have different view points, that is to say you guys aren't concrete on anything as well as believers, like you all together like to pretend. Take for example abortion. What do you (not someone else now) believe about that? Also, this is just out of curiosity now, but as atheists, tell me what you (again no examples please, just your own belief) believe happens to us when we die. This for some reason always has kept me interested, the answers sometimes I've seen are ridiculous to me, but probably make a whole world of sense to y'all. Just answer those 2 last questions, and I won't interfere with the atheist celebration going on around here on this thread anymore.

[Shade]

You still haven't told me what Christian denomination you originate from. "Raised as a Christian" is pretty bleak. Which one exactly?

I was raised catholic. And why does that matter, exactly? The point is that I was raised in a very religious setting, attending a very religious high school, attended a very religious university, and the more I learned about religion, the more atheist I became.

No wonder you are atheist, you were a god damm catholic. Be a Lutheranism Christian.

Make other topic pls instead of this, so it would not look like we are spamming the hell out of it.

[philsov]

you guys aren't concrete on anything as well as believers, like you all together like to pretend

Personally I've found such large variance on both sides of the fence, but I digress.  

what do you alone believe

(I'll try and make it this organized, but it's going to be a rambling bullet list so apologies in advance)

As already stated, I do not believe in an all powerful, all knowing, and all good creator.  Two of these qualities is certainly possible, but I can't really narrow them down, or even simply to "there's nothing".  And ultimately it doesn't matter, because what does matter is that I am in control of my own destiny.  Fate is coincidence, and it just happens -- there's no mystical force that guided me to be at one place at one time to do one thing.  Sometimes I'm in the right place at the right time, sometimes I'm at the right place at the wrong time, sometimes I'm in the wrong place at the right time, and sometimes I'm at the wrong place at the wrong time -- and I don't know which is which until well after the fact anyways

Abortion isn't as simple, since there are a multitude of personal, economical, health, and moral questions wrung around it.  However, because we have yet to come to a consensus on the matter, the choice to have a child is best determined by its parents more than any other body.  Condoms break and pills will sometimes not work and people are raped and giving birth kills people.  It's very simple for some armchair admiral to look down on people in such situations, but its a very, very tough decision that the potential mother has to live with for the rest of her life and the last thing she needs is society to either force her to have a child she doe not want at her own expense or socially condemn her for doing so.  I wish it didn't happen but more importantly I have no desire to share the burden either directly or indirectly.  And quite frankly there's a lot more good that pro-life protesters can be doing instead of protesting and praying.

[Wiz]

Reply to Jon, of Post 11 on page 5

Lot's of question's and sorting through so I'll just take them one by one.


1. What do you Believe?

Up until now you all as atheists post what other people have to say and think, but not once have you come out and said exactly what you, alone, think.

Actually I said I was an agnostic atheist [Doesn't believe in a supreme diety(-ies), and doesn't claim TO KNOW FOR FACT whether they exist or not].

Reaffirming what Arch said: The "prove a negative" argument is void. It's impossible to prove something's NON-EXISTENCE [same goes with any Diety(-ies)]. At the same time though, that doesn't mean they do exist because there's the lack of evidence for them. That's why I choose to believe/think they don't exist, hence making me an agnostic atheist.

2. Your take on abortion?

Pro-choice (for the mother's decision with two exceptions).  1st exception being that if and when fetus is considered a human, pro-life all the way, because that's taking life away or in other words, murder. 2nd exception being in scenarios of Rape/Incest; If that happens I DON'T think the mother should have to give birth because the sexual intercourse was against her own will and not out of her own choosing. I also think that Roe v. Wade should be extended so instead of roughly 90 days to make up mind on aborting yet-to-be child, how about to let's say 5 months or whenever the latest acceptable risk-free time is by doctors. However, if the mother were to consensually (out of her own choosing) decide to have sex with another man, I feel she's OBLIGATED to give birth since she knew what the consequences were.

3. Stance on the afterlife?
Reincarnation (Hindu Philosophy). No particular reason, just do.

Your beef seems to be with atheists in general. Why are you asking all of these questions?

And Shade, SHUT UP!

With hugs and kisses.

spoiler: Luv Luvs:2oygyfp6

Wizdaddy  

[GeneralStrife]

Also abortion is viable maybe rape, but if you wanted a booty call and now you don't wanna deal with a baby, you would end a life that has just started to develop, you are a sick fuck.

p.s. catholics are screwy crazy people who take it too far and touch little boys or so the stereotype says.

[philsov]

Now can we please stop the strawmanning?

[Wiz]

GS: ^ Troll Post (100% Incorrect).

You just ruined my love groove I was getting on before that filth came about. Phil, I'm a sad panda now .

[GeneralStrife]

lol a george carlin vid

[philsov]

Phil, I'm a sad panda now .

Me too =\

catholics are screwy crazy people who take it too far and touch little boys or so the stereotype says

And they still have a greater grasp of christianity more than any other sect.  Kind of sad, really.

[GeneralStrife]

not really, when lutherans and pilgrims starting moving away from the corruption of the church, those protestants saw how the catholic church was getting too big for its britches