Chrono Compendium hacking projects go down

[mav]

Although I'm inclined to agree that success in trial is determined by wealth, it might not be the case. I mean, tens of members over at the Compendium have provided pseudo-legal precedents and cases that may apply to this case, but since we have no real legal representation it doesn't really matter. I think if we had a qualified lawyer or a dedicated group (a lot of people are mentioning the Electronic Frontier Foundation) could win this case, but it's just too strenuous on the people involved. Cause unlike us, this is what Square's legal department does for a living, so they're probably giddy at the prospect of flexing their muscle.

[Pickle Girl Fanboy]

I'm not saying they couldn't win, but that they will recieve NO help from the establishment.  They may even be targeted by agents of the status quo (IRS, FBI) because people with money have lobbyists.

[Xifanie]

In Canada, you have the right to ask for a jury under any condemnation.

Jury cuts, and the judge decides of the sentence.

[Pickle Girl Fanboy]

In Canada, you have the right to ask for a jury under any condemnation.

Jury cuts, and the judge decides of the sentence.

I'm glad this place is hosted in Canada... isn't it?

[Xifanie]

no

Canadian hosts cost way too much >_>

[Pickle Girl Fanboy]

Does it matter?  Would they target you, the guy paying for it (thank you, BTW), based on where you live or where it's hosted?

[DarthPaul]

The Canadian privacy laws are good enough to keep them from targeting anyone if it was hosted in Canada. Other than that I haven't got an answer for that question.

[Vanya]

Despite claims of my naivety (at worst I'm a hopeless idealist) I do understand Square's side. However, I think they're motivated by potential loss of profit (read greed) as they are a for-profit organization. And I think they are wrong.

Regardless of my opinion there seems to be plenty of legal precedent for SE to fail at stifling CC's works.
For all intents and purposes the law is mostly on CC's side, and it doesn't help SE that they are claiming the circumvention of imaginary "copy protection". It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Oblivion]

What Square should be focused on:

Final Fantasy XIII (Japanese & US)
Final Fantasy Versus XIII (Japanese & US)
Final Fantasy Agito XIII (Japanese & US)
Dissidia: Final Fantasy (US Version)
The next Kingdom Hearts game...

These games look like they're going to be amazing and probably will receive lots of money. Why not focus on releasing those games instead of:

Shutting down CC's epic projects for an awesome game on an old ass system.

[philsov]

why not do both?

[Oblivion]

why not do both?

Why ruin some else's life, instead of doing things to make yours better? What possibly is Square going to gain out of this?

[philsov]

What possibly is Square going to gain out of this?

A decent chunk of control, I'd guess.  This sort of precedent has some pretty nasty ripples of the ability (if they choose to persue) of stopping hacking of any square-enix game, which is the majority of SNES and PSX era games worth hacking in the first place.  

There is an economic (in the most literal and legal term) loss when their copyright is used on projects which can take ANY amount of revenue from themselves.  Think about it... would you prefer a straight platform port ($40+), or a hack of the game with different enemy difficultly and re-balanced game mechanics?  Oh, and the hack is free.

Using the FFT:complete project as an example; While it is a wonderful hacking project in terms of flexing muscle (adding jobs onto the wheel, new fights, new items, etc), if one person doesn't buy the PSP version because it's now readily available, and better (haha lag), SE has every right to shut the project down.  

To my knowledge many known hacks (the SNES translation patches --  FFV/SD3/BL.  <3 Neill Corlett and SoM2Freak) are still readily available and it's impossible that no one anywhere within SE doesn't know about them.  There's some things they let slide, or at the very least did in the past.  Maybe they're tightening their grip, maybe they just care a lot about Chrono Trigger.  No matter the case, they are very much entitled to do whatever the hell they want.

[Oblivion]

What possibly is Square going to gain out of this?

A decent chunk of control, I'd guess.  This sort of precedent has some pretty nasty ripples of the ability (if they choose to persue) of stopping hacking of any square-enix game, which is the majority of SNES and PSX era games worth hacking in the first place.  

There is an economic (in the most literal and legal term) loss when their copyright is used on projects which can take ANY amount of revenue from themselves.  Think about it... would you prefer a straight platform port ($40+), or a hack of the game with different enemy difficultly and re-balanced game mechanics?  Oh, and the hack is free.

Using the FFT:complete project as an example; While it is a wonderful hacking project in terms of flexing muscle (adding jobs onto the wheel, new fights, new items, etc), if one person doesn't buy the PSP version because it's now readily available, and better (haha lag), SE has every right to shut the project down.  

To my knowledge many known hacks (the SNES translation patches --  FFV/SD3/BH.  <3 Neill Corlett and SoM2Freak) are still readily available and it's impossible that no one anywhere within SE doesn't know about them.  There's some things they let slide, or at the very least did in the past.  Maybe they're tightening their grip, maybe they just care a lot about Chrono Trigger.  No matter the case, they are very much entitled to do whatever the hell they want.

You make a lot of sense. But, if Square is afraid that this will decrease their revenue, why not just use their powers as the creators of the game and use CC's ideas? Square should (not saying they're going to if they did) give CC credit for the idea, and use it in a sequel or another video game. That way everyone wins...sorta. CC's members worked really hard on these hacks and should still be able to post their completed works.

[philsov]

It's a matter of precedent and example.  And it sucks that it's happen to the CC crew, because they did put a LOT of time and effort into the project and can probably dive through the game better than some of the original programmers at this point.  But... SE wants to make the message clear imo.  Letting them post completed works is being way too soft and using CC's ideas is also borderline intellectual property theft and therefore hypocritical.  

Plus, putting effort into an illegal action doesn't somehow make it legal.

[Oblivion]

It's a matter of precedent and example.  And it sucks that it's happen to the CC crew, because they did put a LOT of time and effort into the project and can probably dive through the game better than some of the original programmers at this point.  But... SE wants to make the message clear imo.  Letting them post completed works is being way too soft and using CC's ideas is also borderline intellectual property theft and therefore hypocritical.  

Plus, putting effort into an illegal action doesn't somehow make it legal.

Eh, true. I wish it was legal...

[FaustWolf]

This created one heck of a PR nightmare (or at least a veritable minor dilemma) for SE for sure. I'm still holding out hope that a dialogue with Square might convince them to modify their original stance. If not, it certainly will have a chilling effect on interactive fan projects; at least one other major Chrono project - Chrono Ark - de-Chrono-fied itself over this, and it's a shame.

For those here who remain undaunted (the release of the PSP version of FFT does create the same concerns for you that Chrono Trigger: DS created for the Compendium), hopefully the following actions will help preserve the community Zodiac has built here:

1. Do not create professional-looking frontsites or even preview videos to virally advertise the modification before it releases, no matter how uber it truly is. No hype; your project will eventually spread via word-of-mouth, and if you're really daring you can do a professional-looking preview after it hits the Internet and you know there's already been some downloads.

2. The Chrono Compendium didn't do this either (Agent12 was going to use crimsonechoes.com as a frontsite for the project's release and distribution), but do not use Final Fantasy Hacktics as a distribution point for a completed project or even demos. Throw up a torrent or better yet, a Rapidshare, Sendspace, Megaupload, etc., link -- torrents could expose your IP address to prying eyes. File hosting sites at least give the uploader a bit more anonymity than the typical torrent client...as far as I know.

3. Use some totally unheard-of, out-of-the-way site as your distribution point or just to list file hosting links or torrent tracker info. I intend to continue modification endeavors elsewhere, for example, and I'm planning on using a project member's old password-protected, satanic-looking death metal forum as the distribution hub provided it still exists when the project in question hopefully completes a few years down the road.

4. It would appear for the time being that sites like Romhacking.net are still unknown to Square Enix, because the elder Compendium mod "Prophet's Guile" is still sitting right there, undisturbed, and ready for download. Thus, that might be the most reliable option for project distribution going forward.

5. If your project appears to really be taking off, see if Zodiac can hide your forum from guests and regular users. That sounds kind of intellectually dishonest, but for all I know you guys are already exercising this practice. Cut out *all* chatter about your project on forums accessible to guests and regular members as well. Don't even use code language. I was saying, "Oh man, you guys are gonna loooove CE" on open forums right up until we received the C&D, and I feel kind of responsible for not exercising due diligence now.

I always looked to Crimson Echoes to set the standard for how to handle release of fan modifications in the future, and it's horrible it had to happen in this way. But don't let that chill you to the point of giving up the art of game modification, and all the other arts that go along with it. If the Intellectual Property holder lets his or her world rot with no indication of further treatment, I say that world is fair game for a fan game.

GOD, I've been wanting to express that last point somewhere, but I have a feeling it won't be quite as well taken in most of the communities we've been reaching out to after the C&D as it will be here.

[Kaijyuu]

Totally offtopic, but...

How's CT hacking coming along in terms of tools? I know SNES asm, but after working with super mario world for a while, the prospect of modifying undocumented code is a little horrifying.

[FaustWolf]

Wow, that's awesome that you're already in the 64 bit realm Kaijyuu. The Compendium had a tech editor on-hand and was set to unveil a sprite assembler before this mess. I think virtually everything a modder needed (including tutorials) would have been available this summer, and CT SNES would have been really blown open. We were kind of stand-offish about learning to mod CT:DS just because there was already so much we could do with CT:SNES.

You can still find Temporal Flux at other sites, maybe even at Romhacking.net if it was released there. However, I suspect the sprite assembler and tech editor will no longer be supported, and I'm not even sure I'd receive clearance to port them to another location, seeing as the author may wish to protect himself from further liability. Completely understandable. On the other hand, I have records of all the knowledge one needs to perform CT sprite assembly and insertion that I compiled from everyone's collective notes, and I'm sure porting the raw knowledge over to wherever the next home of CT modification will end up being. I actually did some tech editing by hand in a hex editor as well as sprite assembly, so while tedious, that kind of work could continue even with the tools no longer supported in the worst case scenario.

It would be lovely to find a programming wizard capable of carrying on the work left by the original authors though.

[Pickle Girl Fanboy]

I don't know why EVERYONE on the interbutts isn't up in arms over this.  I mean, if they target the modders, who's next?  Fanfic writers?  SE art sites?  People using a SE image as an avatar?  And what will other companies think when they see SE's efforts working?  This could set up some nasty precedents.

Heh, I just noticed I misquoted a Holocaust movie... First them came for group A and I said nothing, then for group b and I said nothing, and when they came for me, there was no one left to say anything.

[FaustWolf]

I've heard that Holocaust quote somewhere before, and I sincerely hope it doesn't apply to what's going on right now. I just learned over at GameFAQs (apparently full of saintly guardians of artists' intellectual property) that Anne Rice forbids fan fiction based on her own works, and further research indicates anecdotally that she's actively hounded fan authors.

How sick is that? I mean, jeez, to forbid an avenue of intellectual development to one's own fans just seems absurd. What, you can introduce ideas into people's minds and legally forbid them to take them further, even if just for inter-fan entertainment while they wait for the next official installment? I'm not sure I would have picked up on the literary technique "show me, don't tell me," had I not seen it so well-done in a Sephiroth fanfic on RPGamer years ago, for example.

To lift a potentially apropos quote from Mammie: "It ain't fittin'; it just ain't fittin."