[Bastard Poetry]

Alright, the conclusions I came to:

I looked at the evidence, Krazy Klyde's and Jukain's posts, dwibs chatlog, the witchhunt gangbanging, the trolling and Zodiac's "explanation" of the situation, and I came to the conclusion that this is all fucking bullshit. Same as Asmo, except I immediately called on people to look at it for what it really is and demanded for everyone to grow the fuck up. Three pages later, Asmo presents the exact same thing I did, except he called those of us advocating decency a bunch of fuckers who don't do anything worthwhile.

I agree with everything Asmo said in the post before my last one, but I don't appreciate the disrespect towards us. Our stance has been, from the start, for you guys to show some g.od damned civility here. Voldemort admitted that he went too far, and that's all I was asking for. No, scratch that. I'm asking for more. I'm asking for Zodiac to unban Jukain, because she (Klyde or otherwise) had made a stronger effort to be a good member of the community under the name Jukain. And I would also ask--no, straight out DEMAND--that she be given a giant letter of apology, signed by everyone involved.

Same conclusions as Asmo, except I'm trying to, as he said, "do something about it."

What I object to is that FFH has turned into EXACTLY the same fucking elitist hierarchy club that caused Zodiac to leave CoN.

That's the conclusion I came to, and even if I jumped to the conclusion from the start, it's held up pretty fucking well overall.

Voldemort, I'm not playing devil's advocate for the sake of defending Jukain. I don't personally think that Klyde's lying about a 1.3 victory is that big of a fucking deal, but that's just me. I don't personally think that Jukain's attempts to start fresh and deny having any association with Klyde to be that big of a fucking deal. I find some of the attitudes I see here to be far worse than any of that. I'm advocating, and this is the last fucking time I'll say it, decency and respect.

And yes, I have personal reasons to promote my carebear bullshit, but you keep looking at my words and attributing them to the "devil," rather than attributing them to the people I'm TRULY targeting: the friends and people here that I have grown to love and respect over the last year or so, whose recent behavior sickens me to the point that I regularly find myself contemplating FFH, as a whole, as a cancerous force in my life that I don't have the energy or patience to continue dealing with.

[Bastard Poetry]

I mean it with the utmost respect when I say this, but if things like this (drama) are such a bother to you, then perhaps you should avoid these situations and these topics.

I'm not saying they are good topics, or good situations, but they are just bound to happen in any kind of community (especially a growing one), like it or not, it's unavoidable.

Like I said before, Zodiac doesn't ban because of the lulz. He bans because he was being lied to while he had evidence right in front of him.

You're right, man. These are unavoidable consequences of a growing community.

I know that it is Zodiac's decision, always, to do what he thinks is right for the community. In this case, we're calling him on it because the overall treatment was, in our minds, worse than her offenses, and that chatlog posted earlier where he said he'd talk to Jukain after a week's ban is what I wanted to see.

[Asmo X]

BP what you basically said is "I saw someone get upset and I wasn't very happy about it so I called bullshit/witchhunt". You didn't come to any reasonable argument for your conclusion on the matter based on the nuts-and-bolts proof zodiac possessed (the links between the IP, email registrations on FFH, dmbdate (or whatever it was called) website link, the myspace link etc etc). You know, the actual SUBSTANCE of his argument that Jukain and KK were the same person. Once again, you saw drama and couldn't resist a wildly emotional appeal. What you did does not count as refuting the case, which, by the way, is still wildly in favour of Jukain = KK. Dude just stick to your previous promise of not getting involved in drama. You fucking suck at it.

[Asmo X]

And I would also ask--no, straight out DEMAND--that she be given a giant letter of apology, signed by everyone involved.

lol

[DarthPaul]

Why don't we think of it this way you guy's.

If KK and Jukain are the same person than doesn't it seem fair to let her have a fresh start.

She did some dumb things realized it, and tried to change. All we did in return is say no second chances banhammer.

If she truly wanted to start over of course she wouldn't want the fact that she is KK to come up or ever be proven.

[Asmo X]

I personally dont care one way or the other if they're the same person. But some people seem to think a case hasn't been made when it has or that the ban hinges on the outcome of that when Zodiac said it was because of the constant denial in the face of the evidence he presented. I'm just trying to clear up some misconceptions here. The carebear crew who don't seem to fully understand the situation and the trolling brigade who thought they had more evidence than they really did. The remainder of their evidence, however, is still strong.

Basically, Zodiac linked KKs email with a myspace and Jukain with an account on this other website. Scarily, all of these sources indicated a 22 yr old female Virgo and some other similarities. I say scarily because on closer inspection of the profiles they turned out to not be not related to Jukain or KK and it was just one of those freakish coincidences. The Myspace was owned by someone with a much inferior command of english and turned out to be in Italy. The other website indicated a hispanic and a few other things that didn't match.

[DarthPaul]

Lol at the coincidences.

[philsov]

Dude just stick to your previous promise of not getting involved in drama. You fucking suck at it.

There's a way to not suck when it comes to drama?

[Asmo X]

Well you could always not post giant walls of text run entirely on emotion.

[DarthPaul]

That's what drama is though, emotion, and your "lack of" style of argumentation is fueling even deeper emotion into us "carebears".

[Asmo X]

Then maybe you guys should chill the fuck out. It's not like you can "hog" level-headedness.

[Archael]

I know Zodiac doesn't like being lied to and that is what truly caused him to get angry and ban in the end.

I think if you disagree with what he did, you should go question his decision directly via PM, because it's obvious some of us do feel the ban was completely deserved and justified.

Also BP and DP I'm going to point out that as this community grows, the % of people getting banned will be bigger and bigger. If you plan to get involved in everyone of those debacles and question Zodiac''s decisions constantly, then I wish you guys the best of luck.

I don't argue Zodiac's decisions, even when I am not 100% in favor of them (remember when I wanted Asmo as moderator instead of Dominic?), and I suggest you guys do the same.

You don't see me crying to Zodiac that he change his decision.

Zodiac's done a great job so far and will probably continue doing so, but I don't like these demands BP is making at all.

[DarthPaul]

I know I can't speak for both of us, but we aren't going to questions every decision he makes.

The fact is we question this one.

We didn't go all out over MagiTek, Jacob, Llednar, or Zalge did we?

It is just that this particular case is not agreeable.

Zodiac has made very good decisions in the past despite them being unfavorable at the time.

[philsov]

Then maybe you guys should chill the fuck out. It's not like you can "hog" level-headedness.

I'm just sick of the grave-dancing that goes on here.  (Not directed at you, just a general statement.)

She's gone, great.  Let's move on instead of prat for pages about it.

[LastingDawn]

Oh you fellows don't know the half of it... this is coming from me, last I checked I had a rather trusted stance. Though the way she has acted since her banning really does show some shadow on her "innocent" character. You see, I was a bit sceptical. Originally Zodiac was going to have it as a temp ban for nine days. Then she came back and started to say her ban was "injust" for the crime of being another user and lying to us about it, I'd say nine days is fair... needless to say when I asked about it yesterday Zodiac said three weeks now, since she had gotten huffy about it.

Then she comes in pretending to be a "good friend" of herself. She tries to convince me that she is not Jukain and that Jukain was not KK. Now this was the final straw, I defended her as well as I could. That's too much though, I didn't say anything though. Then she openly pretends to be this friend until we called her out on it (same IP). After that, she admitted to being Jukain and saying this "is the only way", now this is horribly flawed thinking, but does it not mirror another circumstance?

Really think about it... why would two "different people" come to the same circumstance? Especially since this mirrors that KK is Jukain because she took the same steps as she did then to avoid embarassment. Now I hope this will put a rest to this once and for all. She did herself in with the fiasco last night, Zodiac moved it to a full ban.

[Bastard Poetry]

Dude just stick to your previous promise of not getting involved in drama. You fucking suck at it.

You're right, Asmo.

I don't know what the fuck is wrong with me. As I've said before, I respect your ability to cut through the bullshit and get straight to the point, regardless of how it may offend anyone. So I'm reading your words to me with a measure of fucking humility, and I need you to appreciate that fact.

I'm willing to admit when I'm out of line.

I guess what I'm really asking here is for others to do the same. Voldemort did, and showed that he really is as great a guy as I believe him to be. And all of the guys like Cheetah and darthpaul have gained more respect from me in all of this than they'll ever know.

What's done is done, and I can't keep beating the moral of the story into anyone's head. I think "Klyde" deserved her second chance as the respectful Jukain, and I strongly believe she deserves an apology, even if only for the manner she was banned, rather than the ban itself.

Then again, I don't know her at all. What the fuck do I care if her feelings were hurt?

I shouldn't give a shit about any of you, or the decisions people make here. All of you imaginary internet people are making me shit blood, and I need to get some sleep.

[DarthPaul]

I think LD might have a point. I could feel sorry more for her if she left for the duration of the ban, but she has to try and justify her point.

Eh what I'm trying to say is the way to take a ban is quietly without making a fool of yourself. Still that doesn't mean she necessarily did anything wrong.

So to close this why don't we wait for her to come back (if she does, (I might not be so inclined if I was her)), and if she doesn't do anything wrong we will drop it.

[Archael]

All of you imaginary internet people are making me shit blood

this

is what I wanted to hear

thank you

So to close this why don't we wait for her to come back (if she does...

From what she has shown so far (getting on a proxy to come to the chat and lying about being an IRL friend of Jukain), I am willing to bet she'll be back, and if she does, I hope ppl support Zodiac when he re-bans new proxy IP

and if she doesn't do anything wrong we will drop it.

that would defeat the entire purpose of the ban in the first place

[plainswalker18]

that would defeat the entire purpose of the ban in the first place

If she came back and continued to do nothing wrong, why not just be the bigger person and let whatever happened in the past stay there?

[Archael]

that would defeat the entire purpose of the ban in the first place

If she came back and continued to do nothing wrong, why not just be the bigger person and let whatever happened in the past stay there?

I am not the one you have to convince

it is Zodiac

the owner of the site