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Cantor Job Discussion Thread (Rad/Ramza Skillset Update!)

Started by LastingDawn, December 06, 2008, 05:40:30 pm

boomkick

December 07, 2008, 01:49:25 pm #20 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by boomkick
If you still have harps, just let them use harps. We dont need swords for a singer do we?

The Damned

December 07, 2008, 02:06:24 pm #21 Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 02:18:31 pm by The Damned
I would agree with boomkick. Too bad I know that you already got rid of Harps LastingDawn.

With regards to non-Active Abilities, I was more meaning how they were organized, but that's probably easiest to leave up to you at this point, especially since we can't really suggest anything "new" at this point.

(I want to be able to change the Equip Supports, dammit.)

I haven't played FF2, which is kind of funny because I've had Final Fantasy Origins for at least two years, and so I don't know much about anything from the game (outside of hearing really bad things about the system).

I have to say that I personally think that Swords are played out, but they are pretty ubquitious, so I could hold my tongue with regards that since you give a good reason.

Just how physical do you currently plan to make Cantor? I ask because of the formula you plan on using. It seems kind of weird for physical classes to be good healers, but I'm guessing that a lot of them won't have the MP that Cantors will have.

P.S. With the Singing animation idea, I'm not sure how hardcoded some things are. I know that Nameless Song is good to go, but outside of that....
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

LastingDawn

December 07, 2008, 02:12:19 pm #22 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by LastingDawn
Oh, the singing is just an animation that I can put in with a bit of hex editing, nothing more to worry about there, it's not like... oy... Weapon strikes... the most physical the Cantor will get is this, their main healing abilities (Blessed Breath and Healing Voice) will be PA, but that's all. Everything else about them will be MA.

Also to go along with Tumultuous Bellow I was thinking of a skill to compliment this. A skill with pretty long range that heals Berserk, Confuse, and Charm, which is Aria of Peace, this will allow you to combat the effects of other Cantor's along with curing your own berserk units, if they had gotten too out of hand.

Also FF2, from what I read seems to have a rather awesome system, as long as people don't abuse it.

EDIT Equip Supports, eh? We've done that for one thing, and that was turning Equip Sword into Equip Spellblades, by turning all normal swords into Ninja Swords, hopefully we'll find a way around this... it should just be a byte in the data classifying Equip X with this skill, hopefully we'll be able to locate it.
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!

The Damned

December 07, 2008, 02:21:41 pm #23 Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 02:25:08 pm by The Damned
Oh, well the singing thing is good to know. It means I won't have to worry that much before that stage.

Also, I was considering that method for Equips, but with...more estoeric weapons, won't that also change where the weapons are sold? I'd hate to have to go to Goug (which may not even exist for me) just to get something basic because I used Equip Gun's corpse.

Anyway, not the place for that I guess.

With regards to the formula, have you tested it out to make sure that it works if no statuses are assigned? I personally haven't because I've been too busy messing around with set-ups ever since Skip Sandwich reported on them.

Otherwise, that's nice to know. Does that mean you're going to not give Cantor Flails in the final version of the game?
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Archael

December 07, 2008, 02:21:50 pm #24 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Archael
Oh , wow.. I just realized how much cooler this guy will be if he uses singing animations for his skills.

Great idea!

LastingDawn

December 07, 2008, 02:55:09 pm #25 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by LastingDawn
You know what... Flails are probably the better idea, I must not have been thinking straight, heh...

EDIT: Curse you Square and your Exactions for everything! Sigh... well looks like they won't be using that formula either...  Or...  should I? This could make things pretty interesting...

You were correct, The Damned, it does need a status applied, but this status can be anything... as Long as they don't already have it, so what is the best status to use? Critical, of course! Critical wears off as soon as their turn comes up, as well this assures that a unit isn't healed twice by Cantor's Hymns before their turn comes up, and prevents the Cantor from healing their allies when they are in Critical, since Songs can't repair that damage.

EDIT 2: I could base nearly the whole skillset around this! Forget the PA +X, X will always equal 100, but this allows for a skillset based around taking off statuses, and curing in the process, interesting... therefore only Berserk, Confused, or Charmed people can be targeted by Aria of Peace.
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!

LastingDawn

December 07, 2008, 06:04:13 pm #26 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by LastingDawn
I would add an edit 3, but... I have face lifted the whole of the Cantor's set (just about anyhow...) and was looking for some opinions on this near final set. Normally you fellows can point out what seems wrong, or misthought a mile away!
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!

Dormin Jake

December 07, 2008, 06:29:40 pm #27 Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 06:30:51 pm by Dormin Jake
So there's no way a Cantor can heal a critical unit, the ones that are most in need of healing?  That seems a bit flawed, as far as a healing set goes.  If you wanted to keep the critical=praying idea, how about a move that can only be used on allies that heals and adds Sleep?  A sort of Lullaby that can be used to heal the near dead or those that have already been healed in the last turn.

The whole Lullaby thing is not really an idea I like myself, but if you want to go the prayer route (which I do think is brilliant, what with the kneeling and all -- I actually have an ability in my patch called Faith that adds Faith, Darkness, Silence, and Critical), I think you really need to have a way to get people out of critical.  Like an emergency ability.
We are Dormin. Thou art to bring us a tasty beverage.

The Damned

December 07, 2008, 06:30:43 pm #28 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by The Damned
Personally, I think that's an enormous improvement over the first skillset. Not the first skillset was crap, but it's just that I already said I didn't like half of those skills. These ones fit right down to the name.

Great job.

The only one that I'm currently (slightly) worried about now is Throe of Rebirth. I'm guessing you used the Death formula, right? If not, then I see it being too good of an attack against Undead.

If the Death formula was used, then disregard this as it would actually heal Undead and thus not be a problem. (Well, not in the "Phoenix Down" type of way, at least.)

I currently have no immediate opinions about the Critical thing; also, I took the "praying" as meaning that it doesn't work on people who are Charging or Performing either, but I forget what happens when a Critical unit does that the moment.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Dormin Jake

December 07, 2008, 06:34:36 pm #29 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Dormin Jake
Quote from: "The Damned"The only one that I'm currently (slightly) worried about now is Throe of Rebirth. I'm guessing you used the Death formula, right? If not, then I see it being too good of an attack against Undead.

If the Death formula was used, then disregard this as it would actually heal Undead and thus not be a problem. (Well, not in the "Phoenix Down" type of way, at least.)
Undead are immune to Reraise normally, so all Throe of Rebirth would do is heal undead units.  Which doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, but seems like a minor thing because you'd rarely use it on undead.  

I personally like the idea of doing damage to add buffs.  Very risk vs reward.
We are Dormin. Thou art to bring us a tasty beverage.

LastingDawn

December 07, 2008, 06:37:30 pm #30 Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 06:38:13 pm by LastingDawn
Lullaby, I like that! Since they are in the need of healing the most... unfortunately, I don't think there's a way to make that work, since there's no IF Critical, Then Status, abilities, whatever it does it would have to cancel Critical, in which there's only one formula that does that, though I cannot think of a way to make this work.. though I could throw up a half heal at 50%? Would that work? 50 percent chance to restore 50% of allies HP?

Also yes. Throe of Rebirth uses Death's formula, therefore the Undead are still secure.
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!

The Damned

December 07, 2008, 06:37:49 pm #31 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by The Damned
What I was getting at with regards to Throe of Rebirth was that if it wasn't the Death formula, it would basically be a free-ish/highly accurate Demi 3 against Undead since they're largely immune to Reraise (which is bad for them anyway).

Speaking of Throe of Rebirth, that one probably has to lack Persevere considering that due to the way percentage-based formulas are, they pretty much all go off Total HP (unfortunately).
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

LastingDawn

December 07, 2008, 06:39:32 pm #32 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by LastingDawn
Heh, that one couldn't use Persevere, no. Any other's you can see that shouldn't persevere?
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!

boomkick

December 07, 2008, 06:40:42 pm #33 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by boomkick
Siren's Wail- Mimics a siren, causing those around him to be charmed and/or asleep.

Piercing Chant- Deals damage to all units on the field, very very low damage. Performing. Costs Mp per use.

Maybe you could do faram and lucavi abilities to not just target the Cantor. I'm not sure if that will work well, but it seems more useful if it was able to cast on other targets.

Dormin Jake

December 07, 2008, 06:43:26 pm #34 Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 06:45:30 pm by Dormin Jake
Quote from: "LastingDawn"Lullaby, I like that! Since they are in the need of healing the most... unfortunately, I don't think there's a way to make that work, since there's no IF Critical, Then Status, abilities, whatever it does it would have to cancel Critical, in which there's only one formula that does that, though I cannot think of a way to make this work.. though I could throw up a half heal at 50%? Would that work? 50 percent chance to restore 50% of allies HP?
Lullaby doesn't have to cancel Critical, it could just be a straight heal that adds Sleep, meaning you could use it at any time on any ally, you'd just be giving them an annoying status ailment in the process.

The half heal could work too.  I just really think there should be a way to heal people who are about to die, since that's usually kinda the point of healers.
We are Dormin. Thou art to bring us a tasty beverage.

LastingDawn

December 07, 2008, 06:45:01 pm #35 Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 06:49:39 pm by LastingDawn
Charm has seen too much use by this point, too many classes have access to it, Archer, Gambler, EsperBlade, Traveler, four is already quite too much, on that department.

Anything that deals minimum damage to all enemies on the field is troublesome, the furthest I'm going to go on that is Mighty Prayer (please see first page)

Faram targets only the Cantor, Lucavi targets a single enemy, as it currently stands.

EDIT: I know what you mean Dormin, it's just that Critical (and praying) Units, are out of touch, they are meant to be *outside* of the Cantor's Reach. But if it would put to sleep, hmm... If a move puts to sleep... there is a way to guarantee it won't work on them if they are immune to Sleep, I believe, that would be my only fear, people abusing it...
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!

The Damned

December 07, 2008, 06:47:02 pm #36 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by The Damned
Quote from: "LastingDawn"Heh, that one couldn't use Persevere, no. Any other's you can see that shouldn't persevere?

All the others look fine with Persevere on since they would just keep overlapping rather harmlessly and aren't widespread enough to present a real "problem".

The only one I could see changing with would be Insane Chant, since Persevere would make it cancel its own Confusion a lot. Up to you on that one.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

LastingDawn

December 07, 2008, 06:50:48 pm #37 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by LastingDawn
Well if the Confusion is not 100% I think it could warrant, a Persevere. but it would cancel, Confusion if it would hit again?
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!

The Damned

December 07, 2008, 06:53:24 pm #38 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by The Damned
Quote from: "LastingDawn"Well if the Confusion is not 100% I think it could warrant, a Persevere. but it would cancel, Confusion if it would hit again?

Provided I'm understanding that sentence correctly, I'm pretty sure that anything that does damage cancels Confusion and since Confusion wouldn't reapply itself until after the prior Confusion was cancelled (IIRC)....
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

LastingDawn

December 07, 2008, 06:55:31 pm #39 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by LastingDawn
Hmm... that will definitely need testing, I didn't think of it like that.
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!