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FFTA with less A-abilities per job

Started by rrs_kai, July 22, 2020, 04:28:10 pm

Do you like this approach?

Yes
6 (66.7%)
No
3 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 9

dck

hahaha, I heard of history repeating itself but I didn't really expect this :D

What an useful conversation that was that even now a year and a half later it helps remember how damage actually works (and reminds me the horror of attack-granting gear taking part in the multiplier, not just weapons).

Thanks kai, I legitimately didn't remember that thread existed at all lmao.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: adri#1824

rrs_kai

August 13, 2020, 11:42:55 pm #21 Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 12:56:57 am by rrs_kai
===Some Update===
Posting some new thoughts. The spreadsheet is updated and renamed to "Less Skills"

---Jobs--
White monk = lost cheer and gained earth heal
Templar = lost cheer and astra; gained chakra and aura
Defender = lost aura and astra; gained warcry and holy sign
Nu Mou Time mage = lost magicbreak and gained astra
Animist = lost sheet count (sleep) and gained tail wag (charm)
Assassin = lost abate and gained conceal
Sniper = lost conceal and speedbreak; gained addle and checkmate
Viera Archer = lost sonic boom and gained aim:vitals
Hunter = lost addle and gained sonic boom
Soldier = lost first aid and gained speedbreak
Paladin = lost nurse and gained first aid
Gunner = lost checkmate; gained power break and mind break (he only had 3 skills before)

---Abilities---
Increased 70 power skills to 75
Speedbreak = physical damage, power 50, knockback and delay enemy
Powerbreak = physical, power 75, heal HP and protect, 24 MP (potion shot and protect shot)
Mindbreak = physical, power 45, heal MP and shell, 24 MP (ether shot and shell shot)
Yellow spring = protect and shell (removed defend), MP decreased from 48 to 32
Defense = power 50, magical, Heal HP, cure Status, Defend and Astra surrounding units (nurse animation)
Aura = range decreased from 3 to 1, Regen, Reraise and All stats Up, 24 MP
White flame = removed self heal, added AOE (self healing had bugs with healing spells)
Earth heal = MP heal, range decreased from 6 to 3, power decreased from 99 to 45
Warcry = reduce enemy speed, self expert guard
Sidewinder = 2x Monster at 1x Accuracy, 0.5x non-Monster at 2x Accuracy (to give it some use on non-monsters, like the vanilla Blitz)
Wyrmkiller = 2x Dragon at 2x Accuracy, 2x non-Dragon at 0.5x Accuracy (to give it some use on non-dragons, like the vanilla Beatdown)
Addle = addle all targets
White wind = MP increased from 32 to 48
Angel whisper = MP increased from 32 to 48
Night = MP increased from 32 to 48
LV? S-Flare = MP increased from 32 to 48
First aid = power 75, magical, heal HP, cure status, defend and regen
Chakra = range 1, heal HP, cure status, protect and shell, 24 MP
Demi = MP decreased from 32 to 24
Astra = status protection and Defend
Reflect = reflect magic damage and Regen
Barrier = protect, shell and defend
Doom archer = lost doom (because sniper got checkmate)

---Equipment---
Leonarth added support for negative number display
shortbow = lost speed bonus (they has some to differentiate from greatbow)
greatbow = 10 speed loss
broadsword and greatsword = 20 speed loss
knightsword = 5 speed loss (experimental, I'm trying to make them the best 1H weapons, like in vanilla)
rods and staves = 5 speed loss (experimental, to compensate for magic bonus)

---Things I am pondering---
skills for thieves
doublesword for bangaa
shields for everyone?
what stats for shields?
rounded stat growths? (I am thinking 0.5 step increments)
doublesword + doubleshot + doublecast = octa-slash
an enemy is going to get this
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

dck

About the last thing with rounded growths, 2.5 means the unit will gain either 2 or 3 50% on a coinflip.
With overall lowered stats, this means there will be a much greater power disparity between units just based off of their leveling rng alone. A lucky vs unlucky outcome with 2.5 yields a 50% difference in stats gained, for example.

You can use Leonarth's newLevel engine hack to avoid this, but there are two things to consider:

1- the game won't use those decimal values for anything, meaning it's the same having 14 attack or 14.9

2- characters might miss out on points if they level up and "hold" 0.5, only to switch to a job with whole numbers and forever carry that 0.5 that isn't actually factored in until they level up again in a 0.5 job and it's added to their total stat score

The 2nd part isn't as awful if you have only 0.5 as an inbetween step in growths, since at most units would miss one point at the end, but it's still something to keep in mind since the stats system isn't as intuitive one would initially assume.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: adri#1824

rrs_kai

August 14, 2020, 10:07:09 am #23 Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 11:02:06 am by rrs_kai
Quote from: dck on August 14, 2020, 03:49:43 amA lucky vs unlucky outcome with 2.5 yields a 50% difference in stats gained, for example.
Yes. That's big, but it evens out. I am not sure if I am biased, but I've leveled up many units and the RNG has not been too harsh on me.
Also, all the enemies I saw had properly averaged stats. Some are superior because they get the upper limit in ATK, MAG and Speed, while others get it in DEF, RES and MP, which are not as useful.

Quote from: dck on August 14, 2020, 03:49:43 amYou can use Leonarth's newLevel engine hack to avoid this, but there are two things to consider:
I did see both of Leonarth's stat variance hacks. It's a nice step towards no RNG. Especially the base stat variance hack, which is very good because in vanilla you could have a near 8 points of base speed difference at lv 1. For the slowest units, with 0.8 speed growth, that's worth 10 levels.
I didn't implement it because the enemies will always end up with same stats. Two lv.50 Soldiers would be identical. This is also why I don't have any rounded stat growths. I tried rounded numbers a few years ago and found it quite boring.

Those who played the Revisited mod had requested it, and I think that the main draw is:
-1- Easier min-maxing
-2- Assurance that your recruit is not inferior
Btw, I made everyone in the default party as lv.1 humans (without level scaling applied), and the slot 3 character got the most evened-out stats, and the slot 4 character got the most speed.
Human bases in my mod are 105/45/85/85/85/85/100
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

Leonarth

Quote from: undefined2- characters might miss out on points if they level up and "hold" 0.5, only to switch to a job with whole numbers and forever carry that 0.5 that isn't actually factored in until they level up again in a 0.5 job and it's added to their total stat score
The way it works is pretty simple:
The game multiplies the growth by your level, and by your level-1.
Then if the level*growth number is bigger than the (level-1)*growth number (removing decimals) you gain the difference between the two.

So, for example, if you leveled up all your levels with a job with 0% growth in speed and then switch to a job with 0.1% grwoth in speed, you could still get one point the very next level up, as long as and only if (in this example) the new level ends on a 0.
0.1*9 = 0.9
0.1*10 = 1
1-0.9 = 1

0.1*10 = 1
0.1*11 = 1.1
1.1-1 = 0

[...]

0.1*19 = 1.9
0.1*20 = 2
2-1.9 = 1

and so on.

Eventually, when I get around to it, the decimals will actually be saved to unit data (if using 1 bit abilities) so that they can be fetched and added up even if you switch jobs.

QuoteI think that the main draw with rounded stats is easier min-maxing.
For me it's the absolute opposite: I don't want to have to think about the stats, I don't want to have to check if I had a terrible level-up or whatever, fixed level ups makes it easy to ignore because there's nothing I can do about it anyway.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

rrs_kai

Quote from: Leonarth on August 14, 2020, 10:47:03 amFor me it's the absolute opposite: I don't want to have to think about the stats, I don't want to have to check if I had a terrible level-up or whatever, fixed level ups makes it easy to ignore because there's nothing I can do about it anyway.
Rounded stat growths for all races
Increased base stats for all races to compensate
--- ATK/DEF/MAG/RES growths: Min = 7 and Max = 9
--- Speed growth tiers: Fast = 2, Normal = 1.5, and Slow = 1
--- Difference between speed tiers is 2.5 stat total
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

dck

Well I was writing a pretty long example of why the RNG level ups are hugely unbalanced (tl;dr, 0.8 growth has a 16% chance of getting 8 points in 10 lv ups) but I guess you're going with whole numbers now?

I won't go into much detail regardless, but keep in mind speed is by far the most important character stat and you'll be having a tier that flips coins to get either minimum or maximum gain.
Looking at the speed numbers on your gdoc it's hard to judge, since you might have speed sources in items, but a 140 to 210 speed range is a 2:3 ratio and imo already gives too much of an advantage to speedier jobs, since acting 3 times instead of two in a given timeframe is extremely strong- still not as bad as some vanilla examples though.

Mind you, maybe the explanations are obvious. I don't really know how familiar you are with them and this is the kind of thing that causes structural issues with unsolvable balance problems later down the road.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: adri#1824

rrs_kai

August 14, 2020, 11:40:16 pm #27 Last Edit: August 15, 2020, 01:46:27 am by rrs_kai
Quote from: dck on August 14, 2020, 04:57:13 pmWell I was writing a pretty long example of why the RNG level ups are hugely unbalanced (tl;dr, 0.8 growth has a 16% chance of getting 8 points in 10 lv ups) but I guess you're going with whole numbers now?
0.8 speed means 80% favourable chance
=> for 10 level ups = 0.8^10 = 10.7% chance for most favourable result. Does the game calculate differently?

Quote from: dck on August 14, 2020, 04:57:13 pm140 to 210 speed range is a 2:3 ratio and imo already gives too much of an advantage to speedier jobs
I thought 140:210 might be fine, because its a difference of 70 from worst to best and 50 between same race. I reduced it 150:200, which is a difference of 50 from worst to best and 30 between same race.

Quote from: dck on August 14, 2020, 04:57:13 pmkeep in mind speed is by far the most important character stat
Thanks for reminding. The speed tiers are back to their previous values:
--- Speed growth tiers: Fast = 1.9, Normal = 1.6, and Slow = 1.3
--- Fast jobs don't get a 9 in any stat growth
Using Leonarth's formula, I ended up with 150:200
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

dck

Quote from: rrs_kai on August 14, 2020, 11:40:16 pm0.8 speed means 80% favourable chance

It sure does but what you had said in that initial statement was that 8 points was worth 10 lv ups for a 0.8 job; 16% is the chance of getting those +1 8 times, not 10. We're just calculating different things lol.

As you can see in this unintentional comparison though, despite the relative chance of hitting +1 8 instead of 10 times being ~50% higher, the overall difference in likelihood between 0.8 giving its "expected" 8 points result vs just giving out the same as 1.0 is only ~5%.

Anyway no need to go more in depth on that point, I personally think the speed should be rounded and just stablished at a higher level but those are just my preferences, if you think these are better for your hack I hope they deliver as well as you can- I mostly wanted to comment on them to make sure potential issues didn't blindside you later on.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: adri#1824

rrs_kai

---Thief---
These skills are inspired from Zeke_Aileron's mod, where thief steals multiple loots with 1 skill. Tested and they worked fine for me. The names are just placeholders.

Steal hands = steal weapon and shield, or both weapons
Steal body = steal armor and headgear
Steal ideas = steal JP and EXP
Steal accessories = steal 3 accessories (including shoes)
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

MechaHeart

Really like this idea, as much as multiple abilities are good in most games, when you're just using the same one over and over you might as well clean it up. Looked through the tab in the google doc and was really impressed. Will probably hold off your mod until can use that patch.

In regards to the speed question, can see the advantages of both. Personally think the randomised is better otherwise every character basically turns out the same but it is good to know you don't have a gipped character too.

Whatever happens for this, it's exciting and looking forward to the results!
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown