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July 04, 2020, 05:24:11 pm

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Is it impossible to eliminate RNG in the game?

Started by C1REX, March 05, 2020, 11:03:34 am

C1REX

Hi,

I'm looking for an idea how to heavily reduce or eliminate RNG factor in the game.
I understand that is a huge part of the game and not sure if possible. Maybe somebody here will give a good idea?


I want to eliminate quick save/load cheating while using super powerful spells like charm, invite, frog, death, steal weapon etc that make the hardest mods easy. I also really don't like RNG.


The game's mechanic doesn't give much option to balance RNG.
My ideas for skills like invite or death would be:

- Super long casting time. More than one or two rounds making it useless at the start
- Super heavy cost in MP but that is hard to balance as the game progresses.
- Super short range like 1 square.
- Jobs with such skills would be very vulnerable but that is also hard to balance if it's set as secondary job for a strong job. Calculator wouldn't be that bad otherwise.
- Not sure about evade and block stat. I could remove it completely and replace with extra HP or other stats.
- Spells like charm would last just one round.


Do you have any ideas?
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

Xifanie

Of course it's possible.

The problem with RNG is that is it convenient. You can approximate different result without setting other conditions.
For example, what would determine if you would hit or miss an attack? Or would missing attacks not even be a thing? If that's the case, some jobs and abilities would become immensely nerfed, even outright useless.

We're talking about a huge upheaval of the game's balance and mechanics. Of course it's possible... if you have the time and energy.

My wife and I both hate RNG, but creating a good no-RNG mod/game is a lot harder than it sounds. I would totally want this to be a thing though. I'm just worried a lot of abilities would get cut out in the process though.
  • Modding version: PSX
Anything is possible as long as it is within the hardware's limits. (ie. disc space, RAM, Video RAM, processor, etc.)
<R999> My target market is not FFT mod players
<Raijinili> remember that? it was awful

Nyzer

You asked about this almost fully two years ago. It sounded then like you were experimenting with the concept at the time - why are you now asking if it's impossible without any further specifics? What have you tried that doesn't feel right?

Until you open up more about your experiences, here's some general advice. Back then, I said one-hit unit enders such as death or invite seem really bad for an idea like this. And to some extent that still holds true, considering the concepts in the base game. Though I have a little more useful feedback on that idea now, come to think of it.

You talked about making the cast times for such abilities ridiculously long, but there's nothing stopping a unit from starting such a spell and then fleeing. And that's still pretty damn broken for a guaranteed one-shot. If you want to incorporate stuff like that, make sure you include some interrupt options.

On top of that, Invite hitting will permanently add that unit to your team. Frog hitting will permanently remove that unit's threat from the field. You'd also want to set up some skills that can cleanse those sorts of status effects.

I'd say not to use Death at all (as a player skill at least). Use Doom. You can then give Doom a quick cast time since it's got its own version of CT. A quick Doom would be countered by cleansing or rezzing, while a long Frog would be countered by interrupting or cleansing.

You can also make certain status effects affect other effects. For example, make Defend block (not cleanse) all negative status - then, if you see a fight-changing status effect coming in, use Defend to block it in time. On that note, give out some more skills that can inflict Defend, too - so you can use Defend on an ally, for example, rather than being forced to only wait for their next turn to get that up.

All in all - removing RNG means you're removing one of the major counter mechanics to those powerful skills and status effects. You need to establish new counter mechanics in its place.
  • Modding version: PSX & WotL
  • Discord username: Nyzer

C1REX

Nyzer,

Thanks for your feedback. I asked the question again as it was kind of lost between so many posts with different ideas. I've also changed my wording to avoid provoking answers such as: "It's stupid - don't do it" :)

So my challenge is kind of complex and multidimensional.

1. I don't hope to make the game perfectly balanced. I don't think it's possible. I just want to shift balance to another direction and to make a twist in game's mechanics. I also want to keep some of vanilla OP broken stuff and balance them by letting enemies to use it against players.

2. My goal is to avoid 1hit KOs - especially at the endgame lvl99 with top tier weapons vs fully geared Knights and Dragoons. How to do that if there is no RNG in avoid and block? I have 3 options here: to accept evade and block as the only RNG in the game, remove it completely or give option for 100% melee or magic block. Not sure what to do. Also if I remove block then shields become useless.

3. I'm not sure how to balance heavy MP cost. If I want top tier spells to use over 50% MP my only option is to start with 500-999MP at lvl1. However all monster spells cost 0MP so what about them? I can make monsters slower or more fragile maybe? Also even vanilla monsters end up with about 70 magic making them very strong with status affecting skills vs human with 20ish magic. This magic scaling disparity is a balancing challenge by itself. Especially if I want a human job with monsters skills. My only real option is to use monsters magic scaling for humans as well but then it makes mage weapons kind of pointless.Or I can just accept that monsters can use super strong skills for free for the price of other limitations. Humans will also get access to ribbon what changes everything. It might also make single status protection items useful for a change. I'm not sure.

4. I also want to completely remove Move+1,2,3 with exception of classes that normally come with it. The point is to make more strategic approach to keeping tanks in front, mage behind and archers high. This will additionally complicate spell balancing. I will probably need to reduce their range in most cases.


So far I like many of my ideas and how it changes the game. My biggest challenge is how to make oracle and status spells not too OP. I want a heavy focus on statuses but still making other classes/spells/skills viable.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

Xifanie

For statuses, I'm with Nyzer on that one. As long as it makes sense, you can just do things such as preventing and cancelling different statuses. Likewise, you can increase the pool of abilities that cancel bad statuses. In fact, if done right, this could add a lot of strategy to the game.

And you can also really increase the status protection associated to equipment... don't be shy about making a few prevent good statuses either to counter the fact that they would be too OP otherwise.

Personally I think if you're going to remove RNG, you shouldn't do it 95% of the way.
Just make shields reduce physical/magical damage by a % instead of actual evasion.

Accessory Evasion could instead be an HP/MP restoration boost.
  • Modding version: PSX
Anything is possible as long as it is within the hardware's limits. (ie. disc space, RAM, Video RAM, processor, etc.)
<R999> My target market is not FFT mod players
<Raijinili> remember that? it was awful

C1REX

Quote from: Xifanie on March 06, 2020, 04:00:52 pmJust make shields reduce physical/magical damage by a % instead of actual evasion.

Accessory Evasion could instead be an HP/MP restoration boost.

I would like that very much but that's beyond my capabilities.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

yamish

Quote from: C1REX on March 06, 2020, 04:48:26 pmI would like that very much but that's beyond my capabilities.

There's an asm hack that allows the two unknowns for items in fftpatcher to reduce damage by %. I forget who wrote it, but it's in one of the hacking threads linked in Important Links! Check Here First! thread in the PSX Hacking section of the forums.
  • Modding version: PSX & WotL
  • Discord username: riggz raggz

Desocupado

You get some additional ground for strategic battles if you remove cristalization, remove mp recharge and limit Rez more.

Conditions can be nerfed, combined and changed too. Imagine having death sentence + quick and haste (i.e. desperation). Stop plus protect, shell and reraise.
Sleep as don't act, move + regen and haste.
  • Modding version: PSX