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The Blue Mage

Started by old school, January 21, 2020, 07:15:02 pm

old school

  • Modding version: PSX

Heisho

If I may add something.
In the end Blue Mage should use quirky or "unique" magic. In my take I will do that instead of using something that deals damage. That way the stats re balance might not be as difficult. Although I still think that might be too much work, I also think that might be enjoyable.

My humble pair of cents.
  • Modding version: PSX
Grrr, arwg, hiss, and some other zombie noises...
  • Discord username: Heisho

layerP

If there's a way to lock the blue mage class to use only the blue magic skillset, blocking the secondary A-slot (something like the chocobo rider on ffta2), you could buff/nerf the class as much as you wanted to, without the risk of breaking the game balance entirely (or having to rebalance half of the game for one job).
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: layerP

old school

Quote from: Heisho on February 23, 2020, 08:50:16 pmIf I may add something.

Don't let the sarcasm fool you. I'm all about collaboration in this post! :)

Quote from: Heisho on February 23, 2020, 08:50:16 pmIn my take I will do that instead of using something that deals damage. That way the stats re balance might not be as difficult.

If you have anything you are especially proud of, let us know and I can add it to the main post.
  • Modding version: PSX

Nyzer

There are lots of different possibilities.

Jot5 uses a White Wind formula for Choco Cure. There's that Transfusion formula. Self Destruct and Vengeance are based on damage taken. Most status inflictions will see a bump in hit % with extra MA but it won't be enough to make them stupidly OP. MP restoration is something unlikely to see much use by AI monsters, so a monster MA boost to that wouldn't be particularly noticeable. Some HP & MP drain formulas are just based on HP/MP totals.

Just tons and tons of ways to approach this, really.
  • Modding version: PSX & WotL
  • Discord username: Nyzer

old school

Quote from: Nyzer on January 21, 2020, 09:43:32 pmAn alternate animations spreadsheet exists, we use it for Jot5 to allow monsters and humans to have different animations for the same skill. Unsure if it's public.

@Nyzer @Elric  Would one of you be so kind as to share?  I was unable to find the sheet referenced.
  • Modding version: PSX

Nyzer

It'll be some of Xifanie's personal brand of witchery, so I'd recommend asking her if she's cool with letting you take a spin with it.
  • Modding version: PSX & WotL
  • Discord username: Nyzer

badstapp

Quote from: old school on January 21, 2020, 07:15:02 pmDoes FFT support Blue Mage Mechanics?
Yes, "Learn on hit".  I have set the JP to 0 and disabled "Learn with JP".  It's been quite a while, but if memory serves, this did the trick.

Hi everybody! I am a bit new and don't want to mess up too much, just minor changes for fun, no advanced hacks!
This section is awesome, unfortunatelly i am almost giving up the blue mage, can i ask my question here?

I don't know much about hacks/spreadsheets but what i wanted on my Blue Mage:
:v/: Ok the weird things the characters does as performing the skills
:v/: Ok Weak human + weak skills, will put some gear to enhance only the blue mage maybe, still thinking
:v/: Ok MP usage, if monsters have MP they will perform and won't spend their MP that's OK
:v/: OK to rebalance all monsters MP, but MA/PA is gonna get confused for a newbie like me
:v/: Created no magic/skills, only using monsters skills available (including ulmaguest, nano/giga flare)

This is what i tested:

[Blue mage 1]
JP = each Monster skill has a amount of points needed (Ex: Choco Cure = 200, Self Destruct = 500)
LEARN ON HIT = NO
LEARN WITH JP = YES
Result: monsters were never using their skills, it seemed like they "couldn't buy the skill"

[Blue mage 2]
JP = 0
LEARN ON HIT = NO
LEARN WITH JP = YES
Result: all characters that changed job to Blue mage, had almost all skills learned, since lvl 1

[Blue Mage 3]
JP = 0
LEARN ON HIT = YES
LEARN WITH JP = NO
Result: too long to have a result, i put many skills but the monsters takes to long to show up

So...do you guys have any ideas to help?
Also, if i may, on [BM 3] how would an enemy Blue Mage come? It would have the skills assigned?

Attached my actual SKill Set and Job stats
Thanks a lot
  • Modding version: PSX

yamish

Learn on hit with no learn with jp should give you the desired outcome.

As far as enemies, what I did to simplify it is make a second skillset past the generics in the list. Put the monster skills you want to see used by enemy blue mages in there. In ENTD, assign that skillset to the character directly, rather than letting it use the generic blue mage skillset. This will result in the enemy having all the skills you put in the skillset available in battle.
  • Modding version: PSX & WotL
  • Discord username: riggz raggz

Nyzer

Monsters should never be unable to use their skills due to JP. The Monster skillset type forces the first three abilities into their skillset's action menu, regardless of whether the character has learned the skills.
  • Modding version: PSX & WotL
  • Discord username: Nyzer

Glain

I'd just like to point out that the Learn with JP flag is only for whether or not the player can spend JP to learn the skill from the formation screen (which is why the flag name has "(Player)" next to it). I don't believe the game even checks it when generating units from ENTD.

Neither one of those flags should affect whether generated units learn abilities...
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

Nyzer

It doesn't, no. Units are prevented from learning it upon generation by having a JP cost/low learn percentage on the skill, and keeping it at the bottom of the list.
  • Modding version: PSX & WotL
  • Discord username: Nyzer

badstapp

Quote from: Nyzer on March 29, 2020, 12:25:54 pmMonsters should never be unable to use their skills due to JP. The Monster skillset type forces the first three abilities into their skillset's action menu, regardless of whether the character has learned the skills.
Good Night!
Thanks for you answer, that is valuable to know!!
Quote from: yamish on March 29, 2020, 11:19:01 amLearn on hit with no learn with jp should give you the desired outcome.

This will result in the enemy having all the skills you put in the skillset available in battle.
Good night!
Thanks for both, the second is even a nicer idea
Quote from: Glain on March 30, 2020, 03:44:48 pmNeither one of those flags should affect whether generated units learn abilities...
Quote from: Nyzer on March 30, 2020, 05:03:19 pmIt doesn't, no. Units are prevented from learning it upon generation by having a JP cost/low learn percentage on the skill, and keeping it at the bottom of the list.
I am sorry but i still have a doubt on these, maybe my english is poor, i am sorry in advance for that. I believe they are similar

1) The 2nd Skillset with Monsters Skills for Blue Mage Enemies from ENTD: The game comes with all monsters skills as (Jp Cost = 0, Learn With Jp Player flag, Chance to learn 100%, Learn on hit unflagged), assuming what i read, i should just leave like this for this 2nd Skillset i assign, right?

2) Nyzer said about enemies learning skills on ENTD are based on: JP cost, Percentage and Bottom/upper on the list. In vanilla i rarely saw (for example) a Black Mage/Summoner, High Lv, to use a Death/Fire 4/Cyclops/Lich. How can i make the enemies to use powerfull skills/magic?
(Maybe: Decreasing JP but it will affect myself as player; Big increase on Chance to Learn and maybe put them in the first places on the list i think. I want powerful enemies)

Thaaaaaaanks huge in advance
  • Modding version: PSX

badstapp

Quote from: Nyzer on March 30, 2020, 05:03:19 pmIt doesn't, no. Units are prevented from learning it upon generation by having a JP cost/low learn percentage on the skill, and keeping it at the bottom of the list.

Sorry to bother...but would you mind explain a little bit more?

Quote from: badstapp on March 30, 2020, 11:48:31 pm2) Nyzer said about enemies learning skills on ENTD are based on: JP cost, Percentage and Bottom/upper on the list. In vanilla i rarely saw (for example) a Black Mage/Summoner, High Lv, to use a Death/Fire 4/Cyclops/Lich. How can i make the enemies to use powerfull skills/magic?
(Maybe: Decreasing JP but it will affect myself as player; Big increase on Chance to Learn and maybe put them in the first places on the list i think. I want powerful enemies)

  • Modding version: PSX

Nyzer

When a unit is generated, it goes through every available skillset it has, attempting to learn skills one by one from the top down. The higher the skill is in the list, the less likely the unit is to run out of JP before it hits the skill. If it has the JP to learn the skill by the time it reaches it, it will attempt to learn it based on the learn percentage chance.

Except for monsters. The Monster skillset type will automatically equip the first three abilities in the skillset (or the first four if standing next to a Beastmaster) regardless of whether those skills were actually "learned".
  • Modding version: PSX & WotL
  • Discord username: Nyzer

old school

Hey, @Nyzer , can the Blue Mage Dual Cast?  :D

jk, but I updated the post slightly to include some of your points.
  • Modding version: PSX

old school

Is it possible to give some of these monsters an innate "No Charge" hidden ability?  Specifically the ones with 4 innate abilities already.  I would feel much better with 0 MP skills if the Blue Mage had to cast and the monsters didn't (unless they did, like the Ultima Demons).
  • Modding version: PSX

Nyzer

The skills don't need to be 0 MP. Monsters won't consume the MP, but the AI won't attempt to cast if their MP isn't high enough. You just have to give them better MP multipliers.

And no, you would have to figure out which innates to cut if you wanted to give them Non-Charge.
  • Modding version: PSX & WotL
  • Discord username: Nyzer

old school

Quote from: Nyzer on May 07, 2020, 01:29:39 pmThe skills don't need to be 0 MP. Monsters won't consume the MP, but the AI won't attempt to cast if their MP isn't high enough. You just have to give them better MP multipliers.

I don't think I'm asking the question the correct way.  In fact, I'm sure of it, because I should be asking for clarification around "MP".  Is that current or max MP?  Can a monster use a 40 MP skill with 0/200 MP if the monster skill consumes 0 MP?  I'd be concerned about the exploit @yamish pointed out, "Osmose"-ing a monster to 0 to cause it to avoid using a skill.
  • Modding version: PSX

Elric

Quote from: old school on May 07, 2020, 04:47:30 pmI don't think I'm asking the question the correct way.  In fact, I'm sure of it, because I should be asking for clarification around "MP".  Is that current or max MP?  Can a monster use a 40 MP skill with 0/200 MP if the monster skill consumes 0 MP?  I'd be concerned about the exploit @yamish pointed out, "Osmose"-ing a monster to 0 to cause it to avoid using a skill.

That's not really an exploit, it's how the game works, lol
  • Modding version: PSX
<@Angel> Teach a man to fish and he'll open up a fishery to compete against yours.


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