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FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread

Started by silentkaster, August 08, 2016, 03:57:10 pm

Andrew

November 24, 2016, 11:27:27 pm #100 Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 01:31:25 pm by Andrew
Cool.  I'm glad that you like it, Gaignun.


I know that I'm a little late to the party, but here's my favourites from the suggestion list (and thread):
ESSENTIAL (would make all of the difference, and would like to see these implemented ASAP):
- Dancer gains +1 PA and access to another weapon type (Maybe katana?  Ideally, DW's reworking as well, once she fleshes it out more!)
- Male monks go down to 12 base PA  OR  lose access to bags
- Samurai gain +1 Move, +10% C-Ev, but lose 20 base HP (Go-go melee samurai!)
- Summoner and Time Mage swap base HP values

- Lay on Hands: Becomes Hit_PA+70% (It would actually be usable by units of low Brave OR high Brave!)
- Elemental skillset: Non-elemental skills go back to PA+2 bonus (My mistake... sorry, guys and gals.  :P)
- Item skillset: Various items switching what statuses they cure; new items.  (I would at least like to see Antidote/Ether/Hi-Ether changed, and for Phoenix Pinion to make it into the game.  Or, if people don't want another resurrection skill on Item, perhaps we could simply buff Phoenix Down with values similar to Pinion?)
- PRISM TRIBUTE (Weapon elemental, map-radius Lore skills.  Enough said.  Two thumbs and two big toes way up.)
- Punch Art skillset: Linear formula introduced (PA*X), remove Martial Arts, and lower Punch Art JP costs (All of this would make Punch Art a lot easier to balance, and a lot more fair for users with lower PA values!  Removing Martial Arts would also terminate its unintended interactions with certain skills, like Gil Toss.)
- Spin Fist: Goes to 0 vertical
- Roulette: Loses Frog, gains Death Sentence and HP Poison (We could always put Frog on something else, be it a skill or weapon.)
- Comet: Gains CM and CF
- Haste 2/Slow 2: Lose smart-targeting (Mostly for Slow 2; would see less spam, especially in smaller maps.)
- Esuna/Raise/Raise 2: More JP (I want White Magic users to struggle with JP, since the skillset is so damn good.)
- Holy: Moves to Black Magic (Death moves somewhere else?), MAx15
- Piety: Trigger becomes Critical-only (I designed this one to originally fill a defensive role, believe it or not!  If it's not possible to change its trigger, then change the status it gives to something else, or remove it.)
- Blind Rage: Loses Darkness (Better than my idea.)

- Scorpion Tail: 11 WP (I'd still be scared of 12 WP even if we removed the HP Poison proc.)
- Hidden Knife: Remove from the game (Unevadable magic... enough said.)
- Holy Lance: Gains 1 Move, loses 1 Speed
- Javelin: Gains 1 Speed (I feel that adjusting Holy Lance and Javelin would "complete" spears, and thus Lancer as a whole.  Spears define Lancer, making it unique amongst the rest of the jobs.  This would be the icing on the cake.)
- Spell Guns: WP reduction or turn into books (Magical books that shoot... magic.  It makes sense!)

- Golden Hairpin: Halves Dark/Holy, new robe made for strengthening

- Cursed Ring: Loses Fire weakness

- Critical hits no longer knock-back (Two reasons: Unfair for units with Two Swords, since if they crit with their first attack and knock-back occurs, the second attack will not land.  Also, the crit knock-back has a strange interaction with weapon skills, as it can cause the affected to go out-of-bounds; that is, push them out of the map, and thus bugging the match up.)


NON-ESSENTIAL (would be nice to have, but can wait for a later patch):
- Heal: 2 range and gains Undead removal
- Luck UP: 60% bonus
- Poison: Gains MP Poison, 12 MP cost
- Consecration: Speed+90% accuracy
- Misogi: Gains Faith removal
- Raiton (NEW): Same as the other -tons, but Lightning elemental.  Who likes the idea of blasting things with electricity?  This guy right here.
- Shuriken: Reverts to pre-140 version
- Hawk's Eye: 0 MP
- Heretic: Move to Ninjutsu, 2 CT, 0 MP
- Mind Ruin/Power Ruin: Combine, move to another skillset, possible name change
- Bahamut: MAx13
- Caution: Combine with Awareness
- Cyclops: JP reduction
- Titan: 4 CT, MAx8, 100% cancel Charging/Performing
- Protect/Shell: 100% hit

- Unarmed: PAx10 (Plays well with linear Punch Art.  May not be necessary, but "10" seems to be the magic number in Arena.)
- Bags: Become WPxWP
- Crossbows: I like increasing the status crossbows' proc chances.  One-handed Gastrafitis would be nice, as well.
- Healing Gun: 6 range
- Black Staff: 33% proc chance
- Platinum Sword: Gains Slow, loses Berserk
- Rune Blade --> M Bag (Everybody should be allowed in on the MP regeneration love.)

- Aegis/Crystal/Genji reworkings (Aegis is too good, while Crystal and Genji are definitely lackluster.)
- Swift Plate: Gaining Slow, Stop, and Haste immunity, but losing its Speed
- Severed Head (NEW): 10% P/M-Ev, always Berserk and initial Haste (Would allow for evasive Berserkers.  The lack of Two Hands/Two Swords would be noticable, but since Berserkers can evade now, it could have some fun uses!  I feel that the initial Haste isn't necessary, though.)

- Accessories: Various attribute switching (Not happy with how accessories are currently.  Certain ones, like Defense Ring, still need to be toned-down and I think simply swapping status immunity attributes around should balance this problem out just fine.)


Also, here's some other new ideas that myself and others have come-up with in the Discord channel recently:
- Bullrush: Loses recoil and Haste removal, PAx10, 100% knock-back, 100 JP (Something that myself, DW, and CT5 created earlier today.  Intentional knock-back that can actually benefit its user and their team.  Knocking the enemy into a charging spell's AoE, or off of a cliff for some hefty damage... the possibilities are endless!  Muhahahaha!)
- Counter Tackle: 100 JP (If Bullrush changes.  Could become a nice defensive tool for squishies.)
- Yell: Affects user, as well (Would use one of Dokurider's newest ASMs.)
- Muramasa: Becomes PA*8 (Maintains its Death Sentence proc.  Would make the skillset more appealing to use by male samurai/other physicals.)
- Murasame: Heal_([MA+PA/2]x13) (Would make Draw Out more friendly for physical/hybrid builds, in addition to the Muramasa suggestion above.)
- Counter Flood --> "Counter Comet": 70 damage, 200 JP, goes to Time Magic (DW's idea.  So solid.  No more fury bug, either!  Would function like Comet in that it would be ranged, unmitigable, and unavoidable.)
- Tsumazuku: 0 MP, gains MP Regen removal (CT5's idea, with input from myself and DW.  The AI would actually bother to use it more due to it costing 0 MP, and would be an effective anti-Regen and anti-Masamune!  I think that this alone would justify it staying at 200 JP.)
- Stop: +1 CT or -accuracy (Slower means more opportunities for redirection!  Screeeew this skill.)

- Poison Bow: Becomes a crossbow again and gains the ability to inflict HP Poison, as well (DW's idea.  Dual Poison funsies!  Would be very annoying to deal with.)
- Masamune: Gains Stop immunity, +1 PA, and +1 MA, but loses its other properties (Something Alfa and I came-up with together.  Who wouldn't want more Stop protection?  Also would pair up nicely with Geomancy and/or the Muramasa and Murasame skill ideas of mine.)

- Chantage: Loses absorb Water, but gains initial Protect and Shell (Something DW and I came-up with a few days back.  Would make Chantage similar to the other perfumes again.  While Undead immunity, initial Reraise, initial Protect and initial Shell may sound like much, it also wouldn't take much to dispel these statuses, leaving the user with a measly single status immunity for the rest of the fight.  Could be good for units that need to get into the fray quickly with as little as possible stopping them.)
- Elf Mantle --> "Aqua Glove": Absorb Water; Don't Move, MP Poison and Petrify immunity (DW and I feel that the Chantage's Water absorb could go to a new accessory that gives enough status immunity diversity to fill in the gaps for many types of units who are building for status protection.  The Elf Mantle is the perfect accessory to replace; I honestly don't remember the last time I've seen this one in action, as people are much more inclined to use the Leather Mantle or even the Feather Mantle.)

- MP Poison: Becomes 1/4th (DW, myself, and others were talking about this one.  MP Poison in its current state sucks, even if it were to be combined with HP Poison... not that I fancy that idea one bit.  At least with it becoming 1/4th, the affected's team would have to spend more turns restoring MP, actually giving something back to the team that afflicted it in the first place.)



Quote from: gatebuster202 on October 03, 2016, 12:14:06 pm
I like all of Gaignun's suggestions. The only one I could add to that list... Change 4 Clothes
Black Costume   100   10   Absorb: Dark, Fire
Mirage Vest   100   10   Absorb: Holy, Wind
Rubber Suit   100   10   Absorb: Lighting, Earth
Aqua Suit           100   10   Absorb: Ice, Water
Replaces current elemental Clothing

Gives a balanced approach to Elemental Equipment and allows more interesting builds.


I'm definitely cool with this.


Quote from: Gaignun on October 12, 2016, 05:40:03 am
<snip>

Wish: I agree that this skill is the worst method of revival.  Having it ignore the Undead status wouldn't change this, but at least it would give it a niche application on Undead teams.  Perhaps we could turn Wish into the proposed Phoenix Pinion skill as an alternative.

Ultima: I think the problem has more to do with Chiri being overpowered than Ultima being underpowered.  Chiri walks all over not only Ultima, but Muramasa, as well.  If I had it my way, I would drop Chiri's damage from MA*9 to MA*8 and its JP cost from 400 to 200~300.  Then, Muramasa would become the sole MA*9 Draw Out skill.  Comparison of Ultima and Muramasa is much more charitable towards Ultima.


I'm definitely in favour of buffing Wish and even Revive.  Maybe Wish could go to 25%, and Revive to 33%?  If need be, they could have their JP costs increased, but I don't feel that would be necessary.  Chirijiraden could definitely go down to MAx8 and 300 JP.


EDIT 1: Removed my Bronze Armor idea, as CT5 convinced me that it wouldn't be a good idea.

EDIT 2: Now that I think about it, Chirijiraden can go to MAx8 and stay at 400 JP, as it'd still be worth the price.  Also, Phoenix Blade should go down to 13 WP: initial Reraise is powerful in its own right, so it should be brought down to the power of the other elemental swords, at the very least.
  • Modding version: PSX

Gaignun

Quote from: Andrew on November 24, 2016, 11:27:27 pm
- Spell Guns: WP reduction or turn into books (Magical books that shoot... magic.  It makes sense!)


I'm glad you like the book idea!  We can do Harry Potter cosplay together.

My comments on the new ideas as a Discord outsider:


  • Bullrush & Counter Tackle causing 100% knockback: Sounds fun.

  • Yell casting Haste on user & target: Not in favour.  The AI will still eat up turns applying Haste to its team members one at a time.  Admittedly, Masamune suffers from the same issue, but at least Masamune has the strict range and height restrictions to keep the AI from going nuts.  I am still partial to silentkaster's idea (i.e., Heal (+ Buffs?), Critical only).

  • Muramasa becomes PA*8: I am afraid this will not produce its intended effect.  If a PA-stacked samurai comes within 1 range of its target, it will probably smack the target with its weapon rather than use Muramasa, seeing that its WP > 8 in most cases.

  • Murasame becomes (MA+PA/2)*13: I like the idea, but the formula sounds incredibly strong.  We'll need to discuss a balanced formula.

  • Counter Comet: 70 damage feels like a poor man's Damage Split to me.  Is somewhere between 70 and 100 damage too high?

  • MP Poison: Weren't we going to merge both types of poison into a single one?  MP damage could stay at 1/8 max MP if the poisons are merged.


The other items are OK to me.


Andrew

November 25, 2016, 02:49:07 pm #102 Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 07:18:12 pm by Andrew
LOL, sounds like a fun time for next Halloween.  :P

Yell: I honestly don't know what else to do to it without it becoming a clone of the other Haste skills.  Somebody mentioned in Discord that it could use Dokurider's new "cone AoE" ASM hack.  (A similar suggestion was made for Aurablast and the physical Draw Outs, as well.)
Muramasa: What if it was PAx9 and had more vertical going for it, since Attack's vertical is only 2?
Murasame: I hope that (MA+PA/2)*X is at least a step in the right direction.  Originally, it was *12, not *13.
Counter Comet: I originally thought 75 would be okay.  How about 80?
MP Poison: 1/4th would allow for it to keep-up with how fast-paced Arena can be, and put pressure on mages.  I feel that merging it with HP Poison wouldn't solve its potency problem at all, as most MP builds would easily shrug off its damage (unless it went to 1/4th as well as merged, but I think that'd be a little too much).  I guess it would persist upon death, though, so it would still be an improvement.

I'm glad that you like the other suggestions.

EDIT: To clarify, the cone AoE would look like this: (Gatebuster202 said that we could perhaps use it for Muramasa, as well)
ooPoo
ooxoo
oxxxo
xxxxx
  • Modding version: PSX

Gaignun

November 28, 2016, 01:14:53 pm #103 Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 01:30:13 pm by Gaignun
Quote from: Andrew on November 25, 2016, 02:49:07 pm
Muramasa: What if it was PAx9 and had more vertical going for it, since Attack's vertical is only 2?


I don't think even 9*PA would make much difference seeing how most two-handed weapons have at least 16 effective WP.  Extra vertical would be nice, but then the skill would be very situational.

Quote from: Andrew on November 25, 2016, 02:49:07 pm
Murasame: I hope that (MA+PA/2)*X is at least a step in the right direction.  Originally, it was *12, not *13.


Let's see.  Currently Murasame is MA*10 and cannot be boosted with MAtk UP (i.e., its output value is immutable).  Turning it into (MA+PA/2)*10 would add a flat 5*PA.  Going from there to (MA+PA/2)*12 would be equivalent to first buffing the current Murasame to MA*12, then adding a flat 6*PA on top of that.  I'm sure you can see by now how strong of a buff that is.

How about we start with XA = (MA+PA)/2 as a guide? Most classes have somewhere around 7 XA. The top scorers are the Dancerbard (10) and Monk, Geomancer, Samurai, and Scholar (9). To uphold the healing "floor" (e.g., 110 healing by an 11 MA female samurai (famurai?)) the formula XA*(11~12) would be appropriate.  To uphold the healing "ceiling" (e.g., 180 healing by a MA-stacked Geomancer), the formula XA*14 would be appropriate.  Upholding the floor knocks down the ceiling, and upholding the ceiling lifts up the floor.

Next, let's consider XA = (MA+PA/2) as originally suggested. Now the average XA is around 12~13, and the top scorers are the Bard (16), female Samurai and Scholar (14.5), and Dancer (14).  The appropriate formula is then around XA*8 (floor and ceiling).


Quote from: Andrew on November 25, 2016, 02:49:07 pm
Counter Comet: I originally thought 75 would be okay.  How about 80?


80 is better than 70!

Quote from: Andrew on November 25, 2016, 02:49:07 pm
Cone AoE stuff


The cone AoE feels like something I would see in Disgaea.  I am eager to listen to the possibilities this AoE hack would bring.  It feels a little thematically inconsistent on Draw Out, but definitely neat on Punch Art.

Spellbooks
Finally, let me close with a few formal spellbook suggestions.  As a common theme, every book is imbued with an element.

Omnilex: 14 WP, 3 Range, Cast Fire 2 [Dmg_F(WP*12)]
Heptameron: 13 WP, 3 Range, Cast Ice 2 [Dmg_F(WP*13)]
Picatrix: 12 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bolt 2 [Dmg_F(WP*14)]
Necronomicon: 14 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bio 3 [Dmg_F(WP*11)]

The book colors are coordinated with the spell elements (i.e., Omnilex is red, Heptameron is blue, Picatrix is yellow, and Necronomicon is an ominous green).  These books would replace the current ones.

Barren

I like the spell book ideas. That looks like it's cool.

And also, I know it will sound a bit too nit picky but for a class called scholar it cant wield books? Are they illiterate?
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Andrew

Quote from: Gaignun on November 28, 2016, 01:14:53 pm
I don't think even 9*PA would make much difference seeing how most two-handed weapons have at least 16 effective WP.  Extra vertical would be nice, but then the skill would be very situational.

Yeah, you're right.  I had an idea about turning it into a physical version of Chirijiraden, but that would definitely overshadow Spin Fist, a skill that definitely needs a nerf as it is.  I'm a little sad right now, TBH.

Quote from: Gaignun on November 28, 2016, 01:14:53 pm
<Murasame stuff>

Makes sense.  I'd be fine with *8 or *9.  Please, join us on Discord!  (Seriously)

Quote from: Gaignun on November 28, 2016, 01:14:53 pm
Spellbooks
Finally, let me close with a few formal spellbook suggestions.  As a common theme, every book is imbued with an element.

Omnilex: 14 WP, 3 Range, Cast Fire 2 [Dmg_F(WP*12)]
Heptameron: 13 WP, 3 Range, Cast Ice 2 [Dmg_F(WP*13)]
Picatrix: 12 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bolt 2 [Dmg_F(WP*14)]
Necronomicon: 14 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bio 3 [Dmg_F(WP*11)]

The book colors are coordinated with the spell elements (i.e., Omnilex is red, Heptameron is blue, Picatrix is yellow, and Necronomicon is an ominous green).  These books would replace the current ones.

I hate spellguns so much that I, in the end, wouldn't mind having these replacing the current books.  However, any weapon can have its type turned into another, so we can simply just turn the spellguns into spellbooks, and leave the current books alone (or, if need be, we can buff them in a less extreme way).  Also, there's already the Black Staff for Bio 3, which I'm hoping will have its proc chance buffed in the future.  Despite my gripes, I like what you've come-up with here.

Thanks for the feedback, Gaignun.
  • Modding version: PSX

dw6561

I had (PA+MA)/2*Y in mind all along when I mentioned it on Discord. That might have just been an order of operations miscommunication on my part.

  • Modding version: PSX
This is FF Tactics. All the Tactics you can ever have, all in one byte.

Andrew

  • Modding version: PSX

Gaignun

November 30, 2016, 03:33:28 am #108 Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 01:59:38 pm by Gaignun
I'm looking for ways to avoid preparing for an exam, so here's a survey of the proposed elemental armor along with my predictions on the metagame.

Shirts
Black Costume   100   10   Absorb: Dark, Fire
Mirage Vest      100   10   Absorb: Holy, Wind
Rubber Suit      100   10   Absorb: Lighting, Earth
Aqua Suit        100   10   Absorb: Ice, Water

Robes
White Robe    80   50   Half: Fire, Ice, Lightning
Black Robe     65   40   Boost: Fire, Ice, Lightning
Cultist Robe    65   40   Boost: Holy, Dark

The elemental meta is flattened
Until recently, each element had its own niche:
  • Fire, Ice, and Lightning are easily defended against thanks to White Robe and elemental clothing. (Two of the most common elemental defenses in S5 were Fire and Lightning.) They are also easily boosted thanks to Black Robe, rods, and Mace of Zeus.

  • Water suffers from a lack of solid weapons and skills, so it is probably the least threatening element of the bunch. Teams that defend against water usually do so incidentally (e.g., they use Flash hat to protect themselves from Earth, or Wizard Mantle to protect themselves from Don't Act.)

  • Earth, in contrast, has some great weapons and skills in its repertoire (e.g. Kikuichimonji, Quake, and Earth is Slash). Furthermore, it is the easiest element to simultaneously boost and absorb thanks to Earth Clothes.  Together with Black Robe, Earth Clothes is the only armor to boost elements, but unlike Black Robe, you got absorption as a two-for-one deal.  Furthermore, Earth Clothes granted a whopping +25 HP over Black Robe. Altogether, Earth-absorption teams are the easiest to design. For that reason, earth protection is important in the metagame.

  • Wind is earth's retarded cousin: It is represented with a similar set of skills and is countered by the same equipment (Flash Hat), but is harder to boost. Wind-themed teams have been taking a backseat ever since their only self-absorbable AoE spell (Tornado) was nerfed to be weaker than Black Magic's Fire spell and Wave Fist became Holy elemental. (Seriously, only 3% of units used Wind offense in S5 -- by far the lowest of all elements.)

  • Holy is currently the offensive superstar: Easily boosted thanks to Golden Hairpin and easily accessible and destructive due to the presence of its eponymous skill on White Magic.  Meanwhile, Holy absorption gear is hard to utilize (i.e., the only Holy-absorbing armor is on a robe, and Magic Ring is underwhelming compared to superior accessories like Diamond Armlet.) Consequently, Holy-absorption teams are uncommon. (Holy was the most effective offensive element in S5: 20% of units used it, but only 11% blocked it.) With White Magic Holy users abound, you can count on equipment like Dracula Mantle and Chameleon robe to save your bacon.

  • Dark is Holy's dark twin (heh), as it is boostable by the same means (Golden Hairpin). However, Dark is more easily absorbed due to Black Costume, so more teams shy away from Dark-themed offense on average.  Dark was by far the most absorbed element back when Golden Hairpin gave +1 MA and you were stupid to not run a Draw Out Kotetsu unit.

With the introduction of the new clothes, the absorption of every element becomes equally accessible.  So, instead on banking on Holy and Earth, you might as well just pick your favourite color.

Earth teams take a hit
The loss of Earth Clothes means that Earth is now no easier to use than any other element.  Earth strengthening is now only practical with Crystal Helmet and Prismatic Rod.  Furthermore, a second piece of equipment is needed to absorb Earth.  Crystal Helmet wearers have access to only Diamond Armlet, which severely restricts design freedom.  Also, users without helmet or rod access can no longer strengthen Earth natively.  The biggest losers that comes to mind due to this are Monks.

Holy and Dark teams take a hit
Shifting holy/dark strengthening from Golden Hairpin to a new piece of armor means that units without access to shields can no longer boost and absorb Holy and Dark without using their accessory slot.  And the accessories that absorb Holy (Magic Ring) and Dark (N-Kai Armlet) are lousy in my opinion.  Furthermore, the Holy/Dark boosting robe has very low HP.  Flimsy armor + no accessory freedom means Holy/Dark teams will be pretty fragile.  Furthermore, the loss of Chameleon Robe means that Grand Cross Excalibur Paladins go extinct.

Lightning is the new Earth
With Earth Clothes gone, Mace of Zeus becomes the only piece of equipment that both boosts and absorbs.  Slap that on a mage, pick and mix your armor and accessories, and have some fun.

Andrew

Your insight is appreciated, Gaignun.  Thanks, and GL with your exam!
  • Modding version: PSX

silentkaster

Quote from: Gaignun on November 30, 2016, 03:33:28 am
I'm looking for ways to avoid preparing for an exam, so here's a survey of the proposed elemental armor along with my predictions on the metagame.

Shirts
Black Costume   100   10   Absorb: Dark, Fire
Mirage Vest      100   10   Absorb: Holy, Wind
Rubber Suit      100   10   Absorb: Lighting, Earth
Aqua Suit        100   10   Absorb: Ice, Water

Robes
White Robe    80   50   Half: Fire, Ice, Lightning
Black Robe     65   40   Boost: Fire, Ice, Lightning
Cultist Robe    65   40   Boost: Holy, Dark



Minor point, but could we keep Rubber Costume as the name and perhaps use Adaman Vest or Mythril Vest for the Holy/Wind absorb if this gets implemented? I just like to keep it consistent in areas we can with Vanilla. I understand Aqua Suit as that would entirely cover all H20 based offense so it sounds good.

Quote from: Gaignun on November 30, 2016, 03:33:28 am
The elemental meta is flattened
Until recently, each element had its own niche:
  • Fire, Ice, and Lightning are easily defended against thanks to White Robe and elemental clothing. (Two of the most common elemental defenses in S5 were Fire and Lightning.) They are also easily boosted thanks to Black Robe, rods, and Mace of Zeus.



At the moment, I think that these are necessary unfortunately with spell guns. Even in 1.38d when Spell Guns ran rampant, they still often took two hits to take down mages that weren't ridiculously low in HP even at maximum capacity. This is no longer the case. Also, Defense Ring and Defense Armlet probably accounted for much of the elemental defenses since these accessories are so strong (particularly since most were anticipating people to run teams with Don't Act and Berserk.) I think if Spell Guns get addressed, this may be different.

Quote from: Gaignun on November 30, 2016, 03:33:28 am
  • Water suffers from a lack of solid weapons and skills, so it is probably the least threatening element of the bunch. Teams that defend against water usually do so incidentally (e.g., they use Flash hat to protect themselves from Earth, or Wizard Mantle to protect themselves from Don't Act.)


Agreed, though Water does have the unique ability to not be hampered by Reflect Ring/Reflect status.

Quote from: Gaignun on November 30, 2016, 03:33:28 am
  • Earth, in contrast, has some great weapons and skills in its repertoire (e.g. Kikuichimonji, Quake, and Earth is Slash). Furthermore, it is the easiest element to simultaneously boost and absorb thanks to Earth Clothes.  Together with Black Clothes, Earth Clothes is the only armor to boost elements, but unlike Black Robe, you got absorption as a two-for-one deal.  Furthermore, Earth Clothes granted a whopping +25 HP over Black Robe. Altogether, Earth-absorption teams are the easiest to design. For that reason, earth protection is important in the metagame.


Earth has always been an exceptionally strong element. I always overlooked it a bit since Float can negate much of the Earth Element, but it's easier to make many types of teams which also happen to absorb Earth (as opposed to having the drawbacks many other elemental absorb teams have where abilities and equipment may have to be sacrificed to absorb particular elements.) I think Earth Clothes getting a swap is a good thing. However, then I would advocate for Monks keeping bags.

Quote from: Gaignun on November 30, 2016, 03:33:28 am
  • Wind is earth's retarded cousin: It is represented with a similar set of skills and is countered by the same equipment (Flash Hat), but is harder to boost. Wind-themed teams have been taking a backseat ever since their only self-absorbable AoE spell (Tornado) was nerfed to be weaker than Black Magic's Fire spell and Wave Fist became Holy elemental. (Seriously, only 3% of units used Wind offense in S5 -- by far the lowest of all elements.)


Agreed fully on this.

Quote from: Gaignun on November 30, 2016, 03:33:28 am
  • Holy is currently the offensive superstar: Easily boosted thanks to Golden Hairpin and easily accessible and destructive due to the presence of its eponymous skill on White Magic.  Meanwhile, Holy absorption gear is hard to utilize (i.e., the only Holy-absorbing armor is on a robe, and Magic Ring is underwhelming compared to superior accessories like Diamond Armlet.) Consequently, Holy-absorption teams are uncommon. (Holy was the most effective offensive element in S5: 20% of units used it, but only 11% blocked it.) With White Magic Holy users abound, you can count on equipment like Dracula Mantle and Chameleon robe to save your bacon.


This last patch, Holy saw a huge increase because of the lack of Holy element, at least AOE wise. With the new Heaven's Cloud, it's a huge boost since most teams did not want to count on "Holy spamming" theirselves in order to heal. Though it still doesn't have AOE like other elements, it's a much more viable option now. I would also argue that most teams having Reflect probably had Holy and Dark Holy in mind when thinking of using it (I'm aware some teams may have been thinking of Yin Yang Magic or Black Magic spells instead, but I'd be more inclined to believe Holy and Dark Holy were at the top of the list.)

Quote from: Gaignun on November 30, 2016, 03:33:28 am
  • Dark is Holy's dark twin (heh), as it is boostable by the same means (Golden Hairpin). However, Dark is more easily absorbed due to Black Costume, so more teams shy away from Dark-themed offense on average.  Dark was by far the most absorbed element back when Golden Hairpin gave +1 MA and you were stupid to not run a Draw Out Kotetsu unit.


Again, pretty agreed. This was also partially due to Cursed Ring being stronger than its current form.

Quote from: Gaignun on November 30, 2016, 03:33:28 am
With the introduction of the new clothes, the absorption of every element becomes equally accessible.  So, instead on banking on Holy and Earth, you might as well just pick your favourite color.

Earth teams take a hit
The loss of Earth Clothes means that Earth is now no easier to use than any other element.  Earth strengthening is now only practical with Crystal Helmet and Prismatic Rod.  Furthermore, a second piece of equipment is needed to absorb Earth.  Crystal Helmet wearers have access to only Diamond Armlet, which severely restricts design freedom.  Also, users without helmet or rod access can no longer strengthen Earth natively.  The biggest losers that comes to mind due to this are Monks.

Holy and Dark teams take a hit
Shifting holy/dark strengthening from Golden Hairpin to a new piece of armor means that units without access to shields can no longer boost and absorb Holy and Dark without using their accessory slot.  And the accessories that absorb Holy (Magic Ring) and Dark (N-Kai Armlet) are lousy in my opinion.  Furthermore, the Holy/Dark boosting robe has very low HP.  Flimsy armor + no accessory freedom means Holy/Dark teams will be pretty fragile.  Furthermore, the loss of Chameleon Robe means that Grand Cross Excalibur Paladins go extinct.


Yup. That's why I'd advocate for Monks to still equip bags. I think they're going to see more nerfs which I'm not sure how I feel about, so if Earth Clothes get nixed, then I think bags are fair. Yeah, and if that's the case, Excalibur basically goes extinct along with it. If this happens, perhaps exchanging Excalibur's properties with one of the Fire/Lightning/Ice swords would work? (So that Paladins could equip shields and absorb Holy that way with the Holy crossing sword. Either that, or making Excalibur the sole Knight Sword that isn't forced 2H.)

Quote from: Gaignun on November 30, 2016, 03:33:28 am
Lightning is the new Earth
With Earth Clothes gone, Mace of Zeus becomes the only piece of equipment that both boosts and absorbs.  Slap that on a mage, pick and mix your armor and accessories, and have some fun.


Yup, and with Spell Guns, I think it'd be really over the top. So not sure I'd want Lightning to be the new Go-To at the moment.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Gaignun

Thank you for your comments, silentkaster.  I think you're right to worry about Monks losing bags if Earth-strengthening clothes disappear.

I need to correct my spellbook proposal.  I got confused over the Master's guide.  Spellguns have tier 3 animations, right?  Yet they are written as casting tier 2 spells.  Anyway!

Spellbooks revision
Omnilex: 14 WP, 3 Range, Cast Fire 2 [Dmg_F(WP*10)]
Heptameron: 13 WP, 3 Range, Cast Ice 2 [Dmg_F(WP*11)]
Picatrix: 12 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bolt 2 [Dmg_F(WP*12)]
Necronomicon: 11 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bio 3 [Dmg_F(WP*11)]

Damage with MAtk UP and (without→with) elemental strengthening .
Faith is not factored in.

Omnilex: 180→220
Heptameron: 187→231
Picatrix: 192→240
Necronomicon: 154→187, 20% add Undead

Elemental strengthening costs up to 65 max HP (i.e., Brigandine→elemental robe) or the accessory slot (i.e., anything→108 Gems). The damage is roughly the same as current spellguns, but the books have shorter range, can miss, and can be equipped by only slow, squishy Priests and Summoners.  All in all, spellbooks should be much less potent than spellguns.

Reks

Quote from: Gaignun on November 30, 2016, 09:32:35 pm
Thank you for your comments, silentkaster.  I think you're right to worry about Monks losing bags if Earth-strengthening clothes disappear.

I need to correct my spellbook proposal.  I got confused over the Master's guide.  Spellguns have tier 3 animations, right?  Yet they are written as casting tier 2 spells.  Anyway!

Spellbooks revision
Omnilex: 14 WP, 3 Range, Cast Fire 2 [Dmg_F(WP*10)]
Heptameron: 13 WP, 3 Range, Cast Ice 2 [Dmg_F(WP*11)]
Picatrix: 12 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bolt 2 [Dmg_F(WP*12)]
Necronomicon: 11 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bio 3 [Dmg_F(WP*11)]

Damage with MAtk UP and (without→with) elemental strengthening .
Faith is not factored in.

Omnilex: 180→220
Heptameron: 187→231
Picatrix: 192→240
Necronomicon: 154→187, 20% add Undead

Elemental strengthening costs up to 65 max HP (i.e., Brigandine→elemental robe) or the accessory slot (i.e., anything→108 Gems). The damage is roughly the same as current spellguns, but the books have shorter range, can miss, and can be equipped by only slow, squishy Priests and Summoners.  All in all, spellbooks should be much less potent than spellguns.


If you recall, originally all four levels of each spell existed. At one point, the original tier for 2 became the nether spells  and the 4th level spells were axed to provide room for Water. The spell guns were then set to cast only the strongest spell instead of being random, which was the old 3 (now called Fire 2, ect), and that's why the animations don't technically line up in order.

I would much rather see the level 4 animations over the 3 ones because they have more visual oomph, but that's me.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

dw6561

Quote

Elemental strengthening costs up to 65 max HP (i.e., Brigandine→elemental robe) or the accessory slot (i.e., anything→108 Gems). The damage is roughly the same as current spellguns, but the books have shorter range, can miss, and can be equipped by only slow, squishy Priests and Summoners.  All in all, spellbooks should be much less potent than spellguns.


For the record, I would have to code the spell guns to miss. The magic gun formula doesn't account for evasion. My understanding of it is that it would be just like a 3 range spell gun that doesn't have to worry about projectile guard.I still like this though because of the shorter range and like you said, summoners and priests. Though also I'm a little nervous about the extra high-faith synergy this could resukt with on priests 
  • Modding version: PSX
This is FF Tactics. All the Tactics you can ever have, all in one byte.

gatebuster202

I haven't replied in a while but the elemental clothing was sorta, my baby, on discord anyway.

Now that I've seen the conversation I throw in some thoughts.

1 Hairpin Change. It wasn't mentioned but Hairpin getting the Half Elemental means that Faith teams don't have to rely on two slots to provide Holy/Dark Holy protection. This hurts the Dark/Holy meta that has exploded with Bizen Boat and the hybrid classes. (Geo/Sam) and their access to easy holy boosting.

2 Earth Clothes losing strength earth. This hurts monks. It was geared towards reducing monks a bit in the EASE of synergizing with other units. If we gave one additional headband to the monk that say, boosted Wind and Earth and then returned Aura blast to wind an made it cone AOE. Monks have two elemental AOE options that punish teams that clump up, and are then forced to choose offense or defense with their headbands. That also only boosts one -Ton and doesn't make monks any scarier at anything else while allowing them to best utilize punch art.

3 Dark/Holy/Excaliber- Excaliber should be one handed and not able to be two handed. If it is the Arthurian blade of legend it is perfectly balanced and fast as lightning.

Dark and Holy teams with out access to Shield and Robes an Helmets can't easily boost it... Who does this impact that would use it? Does it make Geomancers squishy? Yes. Does it make samurai squishy to boost dark? Yes. Does this ruin a few builds... I didn't see any with a quick glance. It limited design in some areas, but the proliferation of Hybrid builds have overshadowed the base MA/PA classes this patch. Bard excluded.

I currently am suffering the "head cold from hell." But if you have other points or counter arguments I will get back to you ASAP. :)

  • Modding version: PSX
Winner of the 2nd FFT Arena SCC Tourney. -Geomancers

Gaignun

I have had some time to play around with 1.41. I like many of the changes. However, there are a few things that are nagging me:

Cheer Up
I think that this skill could use an AoE buff (like Yell) to make it more useful.

Refute
Was the accuracy of this skill always (MA+55)%?

Battle Orders & Pathos Speech
Currently underwhelming in comparison to their Sing predecessors for several reasons:

  • Lower success rate than Sing (<66%) even under optimal conditions (e.g., 15+ MA and Best compatibility)

  • Does not target the user

  • Is not a performing skill, so it does not continue to charge after being executed.


I never felt that the Sing skills were particularly powerful to begin with, so these changes are particularly discouraging for me.

Excalibur
What happened to this weapon? It took a big WP nerf, and now it is only worth using in combination with the Two Hand support ability. The Grand Cross Excalibur build is no more.

+1 Move on Samurai
I understand that the +1 Move tremendously helps the male melee Samurai out, but it helps the female Draw Out samurai just as much.  Before we had to settle for Draw Out Geomancers if we wanted 4 base Move. Now we can stick with Samurai and use their secondary skill slot for whatever we please.  Female Samurai have become much more effective as a result (and they were already pretty effective to begin with).  This is just something to keep an eye on.

And speaking of Draw Out...

Nerf Bizen Boat
MA*8, element-boostable, BrFa-piercing damage is too high.  The synergy of Bizen Boat and Crystal Helm on the now fleet-footed Samurai is incredible.
Chirijiraden took a damage hit from MA*9 to MA*8. Bizen Boat should take a hit, too, if only to keep Draw Out internally balanced.


Peacemaker
I am puzzled over why Stone Gun got its one-handed property back. Stone Gun was made Force-2H because it eclipsed crossbows. The new Peacemaker with Attack UP beats Gastrafitis with Concentrate hands down: Peacemaker delivers similar damage, but requires none of the PA stacking that Gastrafitis does. If Peacemaker remained Forced-2H, at least you'd have to give up your shield for this extra equipment freedom.

Spellguns
I am sure I will take heat for this, but I miss the fire, ice, and lightning spell guns. These three guns served a unique role: Healing high-faith friendly targets with high M-EV.  As a bonus, these guns could trigger Counter Magic, so with the right equipment the spellgunner could also heal herself in the process. On the flipside, White Robes were effective at defending against these spellguns. Flare Gun feels a little lackluster in comparison: It cannot be used for friendly healing, and it cannot be mitigated by White Robe. Perhaps Flare Gun is a slightly more consistent offensive weapon, but it is not nearly as versatile as its predecessors.

Andrew

Heya, Gaignun, it's been a while!  Thanks for taking the time to update your team-building tool.


CHEER UP
I would be okay with it gaining some form of AoE.  2 range three-directions?  Should it affect the user, as well?

REFUTE
Its accuracy has been MA+55 since 1.39c, at the very least.  While it isn't exactly reliable, it *does* dispel everything!  Despite this, I'd be fine with a small accuracy increase, like +5.

BATTLE ORDERS AND PATHOS SPEECH
We just talked about it in Discord.  What would you think of MA+45% accuracy and 6 CT?  Unlike the old songs/dances, Short Charge can reduce the CT of these two skills; so, with these adjustments, you could have a 3 CT and 70%~ accuracy Battle Orders/Pathos Speech kicking around for your team, putting them on par with (or even better than) the old songs.  Mind you, the AI's low priority for using these skills hampers their usefulness on smaller maps.

EXCALIBUR
The Genji Shield's +1 PA and Darkness immunity offsets the WP decrease, which still makes it great for Grand Cross funsies.  Yeah, you have more P-Ev because of the shield, but most Grand Cross units don't always need healing, and again, Darkness immunity FTW.  In essence, it's now the knight sword, holy-elemental version of the Giant Axe.

+1 MOVE ON SAMURAI / NERF BIZEN BOAT
For a short period during 141 development, Samurai were at 8/10 MA due to receiving buffs in other areas.  However, some players disagreed with the MA nerf, and after some lengthy debating, their MA was brought back up.  Would you be fine with Bizen Boat if Samurai had their MA brought back down to 8/10 MA again, or do you feel like Bizen Boat itself would need to be nerfed instead/as well?

PEACEMAKER
I full-heartedly agree with you on this one.  I feel like both it *and* the Flare Gun don't need shield access.  They gained shield access because players wanted for shield access to be consistent for guns, but there wasn't much of an argument made for this change.  I would be fine with both of these weapons going back to being forced two-hands.

SPELLGUNS
Ultimately, we decided that it was their elemental property that made them so deadly, due to elemental strengthening being an extra multiplier that pushed their damage over the top.  Yes, you could've went White Robe to mitigate their damage, but the units that didn't suffered big time.  The Flare Gun is our compromise for keeping this kind of weapon in the game.  It's still capable of dealing great damage (especially when combined with MAU/Faith), and is a great choice for taking out the legion of low-Brave mages wandering about.


- Andrew
  • Modding version: PSX

Kurosabes

Quote from: Andrew on March 29, 2017, 01:44:15 pm
EXCALIBUR
The Genji Shield's +1 PA and Darkness immunity offsets the WP decrease, which still makes it great for Grand Cross funsies.  Yeah, you have more P-Ev because of the shield, but most Grand Cross units don't always need healing, and again, Darkness immunity FTW.  In essence, it's now the knight sword, holy-elemental version of the Giant Axe.


I'd like to clarify that Grand Cross will disregard your own S-EV unless you have Awareness. In other words, an attack on yourself will default to a back attack. So only 25% of the unit's C-EV plus the A-EV will count.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Kurosabes#0312

Gaignun

Thank you for the quick response as always, Andrew!

CHEER UP
A 3 direction AoE would be awesome, even if its JP cost must go up by ~50 to compensate.

REFUTE
Its accuracy dropped awhile ago, huh? +5% accuracy would be lovely if only to keep up the pace of matches. (Watching a Mediator spend 2~3 turns trying to remove a status ailment on a friendly unit is a little wearing.)

BATTLE SPEECH
MA+45% accuracy sounds OK with me. If it comes to pass that this accuracy boost enables extreme XA stacking strategies, we could even keep its accuracy low at MA+35%, but remove its CT.

EXCALIBUR
I see. Though it might no longer be the best GC weapon, I suppose it's not so bad, as you said.

SAMURAI BOAT
It depends on what we want, I suppose. Dropping Bizen Boat's multiplier nerfs Bizen Boat. Dropping Samurai's MA nerfs Samurai, but keeps Bizen Boat as the go-to powerhouse skill.  Seeing that Samurai took an HP hit this patch, I'm leaning toward the former option.

SPELLGUNS
You're certainly not wrong about the elemental strengthening. I just never felt that they were terribly powerful in their last form before being removed in spite of that (4 Range and lower raw damage than Stone Gun - before Pilgrimage kicks in, anyway). Oh well.  There is always Healing Gun.  (Even a hypothetical Demi or Demi 2 gun would be nice. This gun would have the ability to heal, deal damage, and be Counter Magicked as before, but wouldn't have the same runaway damage problem.)

Andrew

You were definitely onto something about Excalibur.  RavenOfRazgriz recently checked Arena out, and he gave us shit about this weapon, lol :P.  He suggested for it to go back to being 14 WP and forced two-hands, but have elemental strengthening be replaced by +1 Speed to make it easier for paladins and male mystic knights to get to the higher Speed levels, while still dealing okay damage.  Since Swift Plate now blocks Haste, this could be an interesting and effective way to buff Excalibur.
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