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FFTA Long Night 0.64 release!

Started by dck, February 21, 2016, 09:19:33 am

Tessa

Hey! I'm not involved in this community at all but I'm really happy to see you still working on a 4 year old hack to a 17 year old game :lol: ! FFTA was one of my favorite games growing up, and your hack has been great for keeping it fresh. This is going to be a lot, and I know some of these would take a huge amount of work.  Pick and choose what you want obviously.  Also I haven't been following the thread, and just skimmed it right before posting this, so sorry in advance if any of this has been addressed and I missed it

More than anything, sorry if this $%#@s all over your vision

You're close to making this what vanilla should have been all along, but the class system needs some tweaking. I'd be less afraid of having units with too-similar growths and more that some classes are better than others at the same job. It doesn't make sense that a lvl50 gladiator turned into a white monk is so much better than a lvl50 white monk, or that a black mage/white mage is better at either than a white mage/black mage. It seems like the drop off between 4>3 atk/pow growth is huge, while going from 4>6 def/res is very minor. Every unit ought to have 4+ atk or pow (paladin should have soldier stats, monks should be the same as duelist, etc.).

This means none of the half-casters really "work," and need to turned into mostly physical or mostly magic classes.  Most of them are too underpowered, while shaman/elementalist is too squishy (it's also weird to give them high attack but super long range abilities?).  The exception is zealot, since HP/atk based abilities synergize with a melee unit instead of detracting from it. Your hack is really min/maxy, lean into by giving everyone a clear mechanical specialty (like how white mages heal, duelists are anti-range, firebreathers do fire)

I like starting stats based on race, but it causes problems with e.g. warriors simply being better than soldiers, while bishops start out very weak and never reach their full potential compared to other casters. Maybe give bangaa/nu mou 2 less speed, moogles/viera 2 more, and give moogles the same atk/def/pow/res as viera (they have a lot of phys units)

Soldier/warrior- I love how you turned these from boring to versatile, really shows how much you can do with minor tweaks alone. Especially great as a 2nd A slot, to fill gaps in other classes skillsets.

Paladin- Needs something extra to give it a more defined purpose.  Maybe some anti-undead stuff, or (if the engine allows it) powerful abilities that burn JP.  Drop weapon should cost MP.

Fighter/Gladiator- give them 2 def.  Right now there's no reason to take other melee units over them

Duelist- I adore this class.  Flavorful and powerful without being *too* OP.  Just change dagger to aim:arm, disable with damage AND range is too much for a class that would still be top tier without it  :lol:

Shaman- Ley lines are hard to use without hitting your own units, and a little too good when you can. Would it be too much animation work to make ninja the onion knight and bring back blue mage, with it getting its abilities from souls?

Hunter/Zealot- Again I know I'm asking for a lot animation wise, but what if you put zealot in the hunter slot (giving capture and ultima to archer), and turned illusionist into a magical fighter with pow based melee abilities (see what I did?  Inverse zealot, the ultimate anti-tank weapon!)- a 6MP fire/lightning/blizzard punch, double attack for 18MP, etc. Give it firebreather growths, but 4 def and 1 res. You'd have really fun synergy with different 2nd A slots- WM for a healer on the front lines, or BM for some range! The nu mou and human versions would both be good while feeling very different, with the nu mou being more of a glass cannon. This would elegantly solve a lot of problems at once. Two bowman classes is redundant, especially when humans and viera each get their own. Nu mou have the exact wrong stats for zealot, and this would give them a melee class that gels with their stats. Humans need more magic options, and leylines (if you keep shaman) would be easier to use with a frontline unit than a squish that needs to hide behind your tanks

Cultist- I love zombify but too many abilities are multi-turn combos that take too long to be worthwhile.  Maybe turn it into a dark/holy mage, keeping kyrie, undead, drain, and ritual and give it plague, holy or sanctus, and cure? We could use a moogle healer

Gunner- Guns should do more damage to keep them competitive with bows

Firebreather- SO GREAT FUNNEST CLASS EVER.  The only thing I'd change is making incandescence damage and disarm only

Bishop/Dragoon- Give bishop higher MP/pow growths so it isn't so held back by its starting stats.  Give dragoon 4 atk/pow in exchange for 3 HP and 2 res. It won't be OP since only being able to equip armor means it trades speed and res for versatility, and low starting pow means breaths will never be that strong, especially early/mid game

Defender- The problem with a "defender" class is that's every bangaa class! Why not a samurai with draw weapon who can equip katanas and bows? Or even just a straight bowman, to make use of the high starting atk

Nu Mou casters- Sage and alchemist are kind of pointless.  Maybe make one a buff-focused class and give the other more status effects.  Make them, psion, and white mage all have black mage stats.  Then the starting nu mou can fill 2 of any 5 roles, and you can change them depending on the battle

Forest guard- This one is an odd duck and I'm not sure what to do about it. 

Dream walker- Not sure how I feel about this one, it's weird and hard to use

Paragon- A little bland. Maybe give it the same stats as gladiator/fighter, and more duelist like abilities

Summoner- The best viera caster, but the growths make more sense for a red mage. Needs more MP and less HP

Red mage- There's no way for target all attacks to do enough damage to matter without being OP.  Why not keep it more like vanilla and give her a 0 AOE fire/lightning/blizzard/cure/poison, and maybe get doublecast from the beginning

Elementalist- Not as useful in practice as it should be, compared to other units.  There's better units for ranged status effects, so it's main abilities are mostly very little damage for a relatively large amount of MP, and the power attacks hit too rarely to be worth trying unless you're out of MP.  Increase the pow and MP growths if nothing else

Half MP- This is kind of overpowered when MP doesn't regen (since you're getting DOUBLE your normal amount of abilities), as a I discovered in one run where I got it at level 6 (my gladiator/templar was ridiculous, since I also got intercession at level 15).  Maybe make it 2/3?

Whew, that was more than I meant to write when I started...
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

dck

Hi!
It's kinda funny that when people talk about the mod it's always in very long posts/DMs, though I always take it as the mod being fun enough to warrant that attention instead of something negative, haha!

The issues you bring up with stats are interesting:
It's hard to judge how jobs perform because weapon damage is extremely overpowered, the damage formula (which is horrendous) takes main weapon + equipment atk bonus as a total for both its damage multiplier and flat bonus. On top of any weapon, it's possible to stack 30+ atk bonus with just shop items- this yields almost 2x more damage than intended for some weapon types.
Meanwhile magic just has its base ability power and additions are just that, additive. It makes focused power users match up with weapons (a little) due to sheer numbers, but hybrids fall flat because the numbers are smaller. Point of this is, stats need to be looked at when this damage formula changes to be just atk - def = dmg.

On that topic still, bulk has already been increased with higher HP minimums. Under a certain amount units just don't function well and Zealots really don't need to have over 3x the HP of Shamans. Defense might actually be hilariously overtuned after conversion to a no-multiplier weapon damage formula, so in general everything will be tinkered with.

Different speed spots for races within their tier is cool and I don't think I ever tried it. A simple base speed of 1(Bangaa, Nu mou), 2(Hume, Viera) and 3(Moogles) wouldn't change overall turn amounts but would let plate Moogles act before plate Bangaas/Humes, for example.

Now tying this into your comments for jobs. The reason they all cover different stat niches is that when I started the mod almost everything was limited. Jobs, races, abilities, effects.
That's no longer the case. With the newer options a very resourceful developer has been putting together it's possible to add unreasonably large amounts of unique jobs, abilities and more.

This enables not only more custom units, but also to reintroduce any job that has been cut and to port some from A2 that would work well.
I probably won't bring back some old jobs without a good idea behind them, but the potential for expanding the job pool is enough that stat growths don't need to massively define what an unit can or can't do.

Now regarding the direct job comments:

White Monk
Gladiator turned monk hits hard but it doesn't really have the MP to make any use either Iron Will or most of the abilities.
Question is, does it need to? I guess not because it can apply 350 base attack twice in one Fight command.
That sounds like an argument for shifting some of the job's damage into the weapon itself; can't be done with the current formula but with a new one it definitely could.

Paladin
Paladin definitely needs a few more identity-defining abilities. Prayer and Saint Cross are cool but it could use merging Cover and Defend to make a 4th holy ability.

Duelist
The new job most work went into and one of my favourites too. Looking back it really didn't need ranged disables with the already strong kit, not damaging ones at that :D

Shaman/Ele
I found their offensive/MP focused growths work pretty well. They're getting more HP with the stat revision but I like being able to competently whack people in melee as well as their unique options at 0 MP.
I also like that Shaman's massive range acts like an Illusionist-lite, rewarding positioning (maybe too much); Ele on the other hand needs more unique ability design since I just don't like her 0 MP abilities all being inconsistent damage spikes.

Hunter
Hunter is in a weird spot but it needs a serious revamp rather than dying, Capture can be moved to an item, now that we can make proper Item abilities that actually use them up. As a whole though, Monsters are very dangerous and I think should have a few more counters, not less.

New class
I do have a planned Viera/Nu mou job similar to your description for when Spellblades are put in the game, so no worries there!

Racial uniqueness
I initially didn't like Nu mou being just "the magic boys", same as I didn't like Bangaa being "the tough lads"- that said, now we have tools enough to expand on ways they can use their stronger stats without dabbling into archetypes that spread them too thin.

The original Sage will definitely come back (without cutting Professor) and with those, Alch is getting seriously changed to avoid overlap.
Dream Walker suffered from being limited in ability slots, as it was sharing them with monsters. Ranger was... Experimental? It's not bad, but it will be flavored differently in the future.

On the Bangaa side, I know the power based abilities have a very rough start and it will be looked at. It was kind of intended for Dragoons to only develop breath damage with investment, but they might become closer to tankier Shamans since they also have a good set of rather long range abilities.

Also that ranged/melee fighter idea isn't bad at all. I wouldn't kill Defender (probably) as I want more Bangaa overall since they have the lowest job count. It might be 2h guns or something else instead of bows, but still worth keeping in mind.

Cultist
Pretty sure the uploaded version has the Cultist with unbuffed Dark Pact/Sever Link. Ritual is different as well, though all in all the job might still need touch ups as well. The list in OP is updated if you wanna check this stuff.

Gunner
The whole meme with guns is that they're 1h weapons and thus can be dual wielded. Didn't actually make their ambidex available in current patch though!

Firebreather
E N T H U S I A S M
I really like this job because a friend of mine was really pissed that I'd waste a job making it themed on one element. One run after release he actually tried it and it's his staple ever since lmao.

Paragon
Currently her only change is having a higher AoE Swallowtail. I think it's ok for her to be simpler, but I really want to get a heavy armor only Viera that can stand out as something different altogether.

Red Mage
So I had an idea of giving her unlearnable Doublecast, but I just don't think other abilities should be balanced around RM casting them twice. I never considered giving her Doublecast as a basic ability from the start, but I definitely will try it.
Also I've hated the fullscreen attacks since forever anyway, so they can prob just all get thrown away and replaced with direct, no AoE abilities as suggested. Good ideas all around!

1/2 MP!
It was literally the first thing I ever had reported as OP and I never remembered to gut it in some way. It really has no room in the MP-tight battle design so something will be done.

That's about it, also heres a tl;dr for the current goals and WIPs for the mod:

Redo descriptions so they work in the new system.
Repoint abilities for every race.
Repoint ability effects.
Repoint ability animations.
Redo stats according to new formula.
Finish worldwyrm.
Re-add/design/import 4 jobs for Bangaa and 3 for non-Humes.
Replace abilities unnecessarily repeated through sets.
Move away from 0 AP system to JP learning.
Balance for cheaper abilities found in items that require you own the item to learn them, as well as always available but more expensive ones that you can work towards over time.
Also account for new jobs without worsening item bloat.
Delete JP cost from Combos.
Increase Combo participant bonus to compensate for JP bonus loss.
Continue development past Mateus.

Also, I'm open to suggestions as for what job concepts people would like to see covered/returning. I've always just done it on my own due to all the constraints but given the extra freedom it's not bad to have a few more ideas. Just writing this post was already good for getting a good overview of things to work on.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: adri#1824

Dual-Wielding Ninja

Quote from: dck on August 30, 2020, 01:33:10 pmAlso, I'm open to suggestions as for what job concepts people would like to see covered/returning. I've always just done it on my own due to all the constraints but given the extra freedom it's not bad to have a few more ideas. Just writing this post was already good for getting a good overview of things to work on.
If possible, would love it if you imported the whole Mirror Items gimmick over to Alchemist as well as give them Mix and Stash from Final Fantasy X-2!

Or at the very least, update Firebreather so that they're basically a living Fire Force along with a name change to "Pyromancer".
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Dual-Wielding Ninja