Charge and Delay ASM hack proposal

[Xifanie]

This would essentially rid the game of the MP system.
All abilities would have a charge time, from 0 to very long, and would delay the user by a certain amount of CT after the skill revolves.
The hacking itself would require changing the 1 byte CT value into a 2 bytes half-word.

Costs
Movement: 80CT
Act: 80CT + Ability Delay
Movement + Act: 100CT + Ability Delay
Wait: 60CT

Ability Delays would be 0-255 CT (using the MP cost field)

For example:
A Wizard gets its turn at 500CT
It uses a very strong spell without moving, Fire 4, which has a Delay of 120CT
500CT - 120CT (Fire 4) - 30CT (act) = 350CT
But, the "Charging" status freezes CT, so it only starts going up again after the spell goes off.
So the Wizard only gets a new turn 120CT after the spell was successfully (or unsuccessfully) cast.

Abilities could also have the power to lower the target's CT up to -100, or 400/500CT. If it is already at 400 or lower, it won't lower it further.

[Angel]

I cannot describe how much in favor of this I am. Like holy crap.

[3lric]

This would certainly make some mods a lot more unique

[formerdeathcorps]

Must it be either / or?  Can't we fuse this with the MP system?  Also, to save space and prevent unit RAM reorganization (which is messy), can't we just divide all your above numbers by 10 so it fits in one byte?

[Xifanie]

Well, I guess so, but charging time + delay + MP cost? Sounds like a lot to me... especially since MP costs really don't add much to the equation at that point; the game can be MORE than balanced with just CT + Delay. Plus, it would make things more simple to use the MP cost value as Delay because then we'd only need to edit the MP cost display to handle 3 numbers (since currently with 2, any value over 99 it displays and infinite symbol).

[formerdeathcorps]

If you're going to do it this way, please do not have charging or performing freeze CT.  That is an unnecessary nerf to mages.

1) Assume for a minute that a mage and a physical unit have the same speed.  The physical unit makes an action, deducting some standard amount of CT.
2) A mage casts a spell, deducting the same amount of CT.
2) Her CT is now frozen, meaning she cannot move or change her action, exposing her to fire.  Once her spell is done, she then needs to spend more time recovering her CT to full.
3) Because the physical unit only has to deal with CT delay, he now has a CT advantage over the mage.  In the PSP game Gungnir which uses this system, I find that my physical units get 3 actions to a mage's 2.

[Xifanie]

I don't think you understand the concept of "delay". The delay is meant to take place AFTER the skill has been used.

What prevents you from giving a spell 3 clocktics charge time with 30CT delay instead of 60CT delay by itself? If you can do either, how is it a balance problem?
Charging freezing CT is NOT a nerf to mages if you balance things accordingly. Charging is also useful because it is independant of the speed stat. I know it has its issues, but still... As for the delay (or recovery time) it is helped by the speed stat.

Physical units can have physical skills with charge/delay.
Mages can have magical skills with magic/delay.

More often than not, mages are more useful given a wider AoE, casting range and ability to inflict more than one thing or just more damage. Then again, I don't see how it makes it impossible to balance.

[Angel]

In other words: look at FFX. Every single ability affects the user's next turn, and also the target's next turn (when applicable). Quick Hit does less damage, but your next turn comes faster than choosing 'Attack'. Big spells and super powerful skills make your next turn come later (upwards of 2x later) as a tradeoff for the damage dealt.

[formerdeathcorps]

For an effect and its corresponding cost to be balanced, |Effect - F(X, Y)| < E, for some chosen tolerance interval E.

In FFT, you have X as MP and Y as Charge Time.
In this system, you have X as Delay and Y as Charge Time.
In both cases, F(X,Y) satisfies a sliding scale relationship in X and Y.  In other words, if K > 0 is given, then there exists positive functions g(x) and h(y) such that K = g(x)*h(y).

Without a deeper analysis of game mechanics, nothing distinguishes these systems and in theory, both are equal.  MP costs and a "cooldown" system are not contradictory.  All you need is innate MP regen.  The cooldown can be reduced as one levels up (as long as the MP Regen is a % of maxMP and maxMP increases through level ups).  Nor are MP costs "restrictive" if you set initial MP to be sufficiently high.

However, since we are hacking FFT (not some game in the abstract), we'll see that these two proposals are different.

1) The basic unit of FFT is the CTR or clocktick.  It would make sense to express all the costs in units of CTR.
2) FFT already uses a simplified version of this proposal; all actions cost 40 CT.  Hence, if we were to assume a innate MP regeneration system based on % of caster maxMP, we would have these functions:
Vanilla (assuming 5% MP Regen): F(40 / CasSP, MP Cost * 2000 / (CasSP * CasMaxMP), CT)
Proposed System: F((40 + Dly) / CasSP, 0, CT)

The only real restriction to the vanilla-modded equation is that a class with high SP and high maxMP might be too effective at diluting the value of MP costs on spells, but most mods typically have low MP ninjas and low speed mages.  However, compared to the second equation, the vanilla-modded equation not only one more variable to work with, it has three degrees of freedom whereas the latter only has two.  Notice that the latter problem is only resolved if CasSP is (nearly) constant throughout the team.  To ensure balance both late and early game, CasSP should be have little variance over the game.  IN other words, both +SP gear and speed growth has to go to make the proposal equal with vanilla's balancing options.  I admit that the latter system is easier to calculate (and thus, more intuitive), but the balance will be less complete.
(An analogy: a^2 + b^2 = 14 does not have a solution in integers, but a^2+b^2+c^2 = 14 does.  This is the power of an additional variable.)

To answer a potential objection, it is true that the original FFT does not freeze CT while charging or performing.  However, that does not mean the CT variable in the vanilla FFT's equation has no effect.
Midcharging:
In FFT, midcharging was lethal to mages because of the damage bonus, the lack of evasion, and the fact that their charged spell can be redirected to allies (or themselves) if they locked onto the target or totally miss if they targeted the affected panels.  Thus, a crude estimate of the effect of CT on spells is given by Spell Effect * (1 - TarSP * CT / 100).

Notice that this penalty actually applies to both systems as long as 1HKOs are possible, which is why I was concerned in the previous post about an "added" penalty in the form of CT freeze.  Although you can certainly delete the midcharge damage bonus (and reduce the danger of deflected AoE attacks by increasing the amount of elemental null / absorb gear) like Arena did, midcharging is still lethal (as any Arena player can attest).  The alternative is ZTP's option of making everything a 2-3HKO at best, but I don't think many people want to sit longer in front of their computer or TV.  Hence, the best way to equalize the proposal with vanilla FFT is to eliminate the CT variable by making TarSP * CT roughly constant and to set enemy SP and caster SP to be roughly equal (meaning limited speed growth or similar levels / growths between player and AI units).  This is the essence of my second suggestion here.

Without MP costs, there is nothing restricting a fast physical unit from wrecking the competition with status magic like petrify or death.  One way to solve this is to make status magic more MA dependent for their hit chance.  However, that creates an early game balance problem wherein no one can use status magic for beyond a 25% hit chance whereas late game, every mage is hitting for 100%.  I think the formula needs to be something like (MA * X + Y - TarLVL)% to ensure balance.

In all honesty, I don't think this proposal is unworkable, but it definitely works better in games where not every unit has access to every job, when mix-and-matching isn't allowed, or when generic units don't exist (and everyone has a specialization simply based on their stats).  It also works better in a game where additive damage mechanics predominate (i.e. defense, magic defense, and status defense scores).  That's why it worked in FFX and FFXIII.  I personally think these mechanics are too foreign to FFT and require too many changes just to be functional, only to end up with a system that is harder to balance.

[Xifanie]

對於一個效果和其相應的成本進行平衡，|影響 - F（X，Y）|<E，對於一些選定公差區間E.

在FFT，你有X作為MP和Y充電時間。
在這個系統中，你有X作為延遲和Y充電時間。
在這兩種情況下，F（X，Y）滿足在X和Y換句話說遞加關係，如果K> 0給出，則存在正函數G（X）和h（y）的，使得K =克（倍）* H（Y）。

如果沒有遊戲機制有更深入的分析，沒有區分這些系統和理論上都是平等的。 MP成本和"冷卻"系統是不矛盾的。所有你需要的是與生俱來的MP回复速度。冷卻時間可減少為一個水平了（只要MP回复通過水平起坐是maxMP和maxMP增加一％）。也不是，如果你設置的初始MP足夠高MP成本"限制"。

I'm sorry, I can't read Chinese.

1) The basic unit of FFT is the CTR or clocktick.  It would make sense to express all the costs in units of CTR.
2) FFT already uses a simplified version of this proposal; all actions cost 40 CT.  Hence, if we were to assume a innate MP regeneration system based on % of caster maxMP, we would have these functions:
Vanilla (assuming 5% MP Regen): F(40 / CasSP, MP Cost * 2000 / (CasSP * CasMaxMP), CT)
Proposed System: F((40 + Dly) / CasSP, 0, CT)

40CT? No.
My table shows the original costs.
Move OR Act = 80CT
Move AND Act = 100CT
Wait = 60CT
It's necessary for it to be that way so people don't spam Wait for regeneration, and people don't spam only Move or Act.

唯一真正的限制香草改裝成方程是一類具有高SP和高maxMP可能過於有效地稀釋對法術MP成本的價值，但大多數器官功能障礙綜合徵通常具有較低的熔點忍者和低速法師。然而，相對於第二個方程，不僅香草改裝成方程1多變量一起工作，它具有三個自由度，而後者只有兩個。請注意，後者問題只解決了如果CasSP是（幾乎）在整個團隊不變。為了確保雙方的平衡和後期遊戲初期，CasSP應該沒有什麼差異了比賽。換句話說，這兩個+ SP擋位和速度的增長已去，使提案平等與香草的平衡選擇。我承認後者系統是比較容易計算（因此，更直觀），​​但平衡將是不完整的。
（打個比方：一個^2+ B^2=14沒有一個解決方案中的整數，但^2+ B^2+ C^2=14這是否是一個額外的變量的電源。）

More Chinese

To answer a potential objection, it is true that the original FFT does not freeze CT while charging or performing.  However, that does not mean the CT variable in the vanilla FFT's equation has no effect.
Midcharging:
In FFT, midcharging was lethal to mages because of the damage bonus, the lack of evasion, and the fact that their charged spell can be redirected to allies (or themselves) if they locked onto the target or totally miss if they targeted the affected panels.  Thus, a crude estimate of the effect of CT on spells is given by Spell Effect * (1 - TarSP * CT / 100).

You have the following options:
- Not using charging whatsoever (like FFX)
- Disabling 50% extra damage received when charging (Hack already exists)
- Disabling loss of evasion when charging (Hack already exists)

I don't even know what you're complaining about. This hack wouldn't be meant for vanilla.

Without MP costs, there is nothing restricting a fast physical unit from wrecking the competition with status magic like petrify or death.  One way to solve this is to make status magic more MA dependent for their hit chance.  However, that creates an early game balance problem wherein no one can use status magic for beyond a 25% hit chance whereas late game, every mage is hitting for 100%.  I think the formula needs to be something like (MA * X + Y - TarLVL)% to ensure balance.

In all honesty, I don't think this proposal is unworkable, but it definitely works better in games where not every unit has access to every job, when mix-and-matching isn't allowed, or when generic units don't exist (and everyone has a specialization simply based on their stats).  It also works better in a game where additive damage mechanics predominate (i.e. defense, magic defense, and status defense scores).  That's why it worked in FFX and FFXIII.  I personally think these mechanics are too foreign to FFT and require too many changes just to be functional, only to end up with a system that is harder to balance.

That problem with statuses already existed. Did your MP pool really matter? You could just chakra back up used MP or something. As for Hit% of status spells, I'd suggest something like (X + Caster_Level + Caster_MA - Target_Level - Target_MA) or something. Speed was ALREADY an advantage for spellcasters... but by freezing Charging CT it would actually help create more of a balance so mages aren't so left behind compared to those "fast physical units".

You're pointing all of those like they are huge issues, but really, is any of that even hard to deal with? FFM already made a hack where MA would count as x2 for status spells.

[formerdeathcorps]

我写的一切你连读都没读！Xif你真了不起。

1) 决斗版取消了断念伤害加成且构造了很多可以吸收属性伤害的装备。这都是为了减少魔法师被打断的威胁，可是这一切毫无用处，被打断的魔法师还是必死。

2) 如果你取消念咒语所花的预备时间，你的提议和我的只是互相少了个可以用来调控游戏均衡的参数而已。 就是说，如果要比较线性无关度：
只用CT延迟 < CT延迟 + 预备状态 = 只消耗消耗可恢复的魔法值 < 消耗消耗可恢复的魔法值 + 预备状态.

3) "这个改造不是为了原版游戏而出的。"
看来你也认识到了这个问题。你所提的改造更适合最终幻想策略"升级"版或火焰纹章哪种游戏因为在那些游戏里，人物的基础指标要比装备和技能更管用。为了确保游戏的一致性，你们必须构造一系列的变化，耗很多时间和劲力来，即我所知，建一个即不公平有不好玩的劣质产品。以下有我的一个例子。

4) "魔法值重要么? 反正它很容易恢复的."
在原版里，魔法值的确不重要，可是合理的游戏一定有个合理的魔法价格机制.  只需要遵守三点：
一、 回复魔法值的方法有足够的限制。药水的价格必须提升，排除不花金钱的回复方式。
二、不让重甲兵来穿戴可以提升魔法值的装备而大大减少他们对魔法值的增长率。
三、状态魔法的价格和它的效应必须保持一定的比例。说的具体一点，如果不纠正级别或速度的上限，这种魔法的价格必要设为总魔法值的Y%与原价的最大值或它们持续的时间必须要和对象的速度有个反比关系。
无论如此，以上的建议对我所提的函数没有任何影响。类似于原游戏的函数依然保持了三度的线性无关，这也是为什么虽然我把80打成40了，数学上的原理没有任何变化。

5) "速度已经为魔法师占很大的优势。"
别瞎说了。快的魔兵 (在电脑比赛当中，这设定为十速以上的魔法师) 几乎活不了因为他们很容易被地方骚扰，连慢的武兵（设定为八速的兵）都能打断他们念的咒语。第六届的冠军Gaignun是例外，它整个班都在维护他那一个十SPD的神谕。一般来说，当平均速为9左右，只有12速的时空/白魔法师（辅助技能设为快念，组技能为加速二级，复活二级）或排在最后一个位置（由她的位置不避免地方的骚扰）的八速战斗魔法师才能有希望活下去。换句话说, 魔法师或长枪兵只能在比敌人慢一截或在利用快念而比加速的敌人还要快的情况下才能瞄准敌人。按照同样的逻辑，（除了在单项比赛以外），快的武兵（和尚、弓手、忍者）来念咒语也很弱质。他们不仅仅缺少足够的魔法力与魔法值（而弥补它会降低他们的战斗力与生命值），他们被打断的可能性太大。如果连这些你都不知道，显然是因为你不跟踪电脑比赛而对我的数学分析不感兴趣；你的无知不是我的错。
如果你想利用CT-停留的方式来纠正这个问题，所有的兵种和技能（武攻不例外）都必须利用它。为了确保功能的重要性，你得在快兵的技能上停留长一点或在慢兵的技能上停留短一些（或给他们一些降低停留时间的辅助技能与装备，《魔枪》就是这样的）。无论你选哪一个，后果是一样的，为了保持均衡，技能就不能在不同的兵种当中随便交换了（或者忍者的技能对于别人都会嫌慢而魔法师的技能对于别人会变得很强，破坏了游戏的均衡）。因此，为了保持游戏均衡，你得改变它的基本性质，原游戏的开放兵种制度会演化成一个死定的兵种制。

当然了，我的方法也不完美。它对游戏里的金钱设了个很严密的上限，取消了随机小战（看来。。。我也在模仿火焰文章的另一方面）。为了保持均衡，我把RPG变成了一个不可解的困境。我故意设计了一个不存在最佳选择的游戏，使偷工减料的懒汉与追求上进的游戏迷感到很不爽。
在我看来，你们两个（天使与Xif）在面对同一个（游戏均衡）问题当中更重视保留RPG的因数，使得你们的规则不够严谨。上列的玩家一定能够玩透你的游戏，找出你们由数学工具不够精细而不可弥补的漏洞。为了避免这个场景你们会发现必须大大减少玩家的选择，如果你们最终的结果比我的制度给玩家的选择还要少，岂不是你们的失败么？

[Xifanie]

@fdc:
So... you basically took the time to write a novel in Chinese that only you (and Mei? :v) can understand. Are you happy with your life? Then again I guess you are used to talking to yourself since it's pretty much all you do on chat...
I'd appreciate if you wouldn't bother with such blatant spam. I don't care that you wrote 3 hours for your post, when it's just to say it wouldn't work well in vanilla settings. Look at your own latest hack before you talk: Angel Ring spam every turn. Herp.

On a side note, my computer is dead and I'm waiting for my order, so I couldn't work on this even if I wanted to (honestly I wouldn't want to :p)

[formerdeathcorps]

I'd appreciate it if you actually bothered to read my posts instead of casting it off as rubbish and replying with spam in a language you don't even understand.  The problem ISN'T that I have an intrinsic horror against people who design non-FFT mechanics, but that I want a mechanical system that is better than FFT.  I do not want to see a system that, in order to be optimally balanced, mathematically implies mechanics that are less balanced than an optimized MP system.  The fact FFT did not properly balance the MP system and that most RPGs were unduly influenced by D&D and thus created mages that actually violate balance under the MP system does not mean the MP system itself is inferior.  Jupi's prejudices are simply a result of bad experiences, not reasoned analysis.  Of course, my proof is not exact (because to fully list out all the variables and the correct functional relations would be the work of a supercomputer), and as I wrote in my previous post (which you chose to ignore), I am fully aware that my ideas of balance, if taken to their logical conclusion turns the RPG to a puzzle game.

Of course, you can choose to preserve the RPG elements at the expense of full balance.  You can definitely turn FFT into a pseudo-FFX or pseudo-Gugnir PSP system.  But if that's the case, please do not pretend your proposal is more balanced than tweaked version of FFT with MP balance.

If you think I'm wrong, then prove me wrong with actual results.  Either produce a mathematical proof to refute me or produce a patch that runs well with these mechanics.  Don't waste your time and mine spamming this thread.

Oh, and as for my patch?  It's Phoenix Down, not angel ring, and yes, that's supposed to happen.

[Angel]

D&D doesn't have MP and never has. Mages can spam shit all day long without penalty. What D&D has is.... charge time.

[formerdeathcorps]

D&D has mages that are frailer and often slower than physicals with no good weapon options.  You cannot carry that over into a MP system (or really, any system that adds new requirements specifically on mages) and expect things to work.

Oddly enough, frail and slow works as long as midcharging isn't possible.  Pretty much, low or no CT means mages are getting optimal strikes.
If you want faster mages, then they either need weapons or more HP.
If you want to keep charging and retain really long-charges, then midcharging needs to be survivable.  Arena tried to reduce FFT's unfair bonuses but that didn't really work.  It effectively means more HP (or charging granting defensive bonuses) and putting every single means of incapacitation on a charge timer so they're less effective at midcharging.

[Angel]

Then why erroneously cite D&D when it isn't applicable in either context?

[formerdeathcorps]

Check my edits, Jupi.