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Started by Ilmauriciano, March 02, 2014, 10:48:37 am

RayKamiya

Quote from: Elric on June 24, 2015, 05:59:22 pm
@RayKamiya

I also wanted to add that it appears we do have an ASM to make every unit have Innate Weapon Guard. I'll speak to Raven and find out why this was decided upon.


No worries ^^ I'll just keep stabbing my enemies in the back  :mrgreen:

Jumza

Quote from: Elric on June 24, 2015, 05:59:22 pm
I also wanted to add that it appears we do have an ASM to make every unit have Innate Weapon Guard. I'll speak to Raven and find out why this was decided upon.


I mean, it makes sense doesn't it? If you have a sword you're probably going to try and block with it. I bet all weapons have probably had a significant decrease in evasion as a result anyway, to compensate for everyone having that ability.
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RavenOfRazgriz

June 24, 2015, 07:25:35 pm #22 Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 07:32:26 pm by RavenOfRazgriz
@RayKamiya

Weapon Guard is innate all units and is used as part of the game balance for equipment.  Its slot as a Reaction Command will be used in a future release for a new ability instead.  As Elric mentioned, ability space is precious, and this decision both gives us a new Reaction Command slot to make use of in the future and makes positioning yourself correctly as the player more important to winning each battle.

Link has a small moveset because the "essence" of Link is a versatile character whose full potential is brought forth via his equipment.  This is why he's the only character to learn Equip Change and why his base class can use almost any item in the game, affording him item combinations that otherwise can't be made, even when considering various "Equip:" Support Abilities.  Ability Space as Elric said is also an issue that has to be worked around so we try to give every character as few abilities as possible to do what they need to do.  This is also why Cloud doesn't retain the "Cherry Blossom" skill from the original Final Fantasy Tactics.  Dante has a wide move pool because it was the best way to convey his gameplay from Devil May Cry 3 into Final Fantasy Tactics, and it gave players who were too stubborn to change from the Five's base jobs enough options to shore up party weaknesses.  Obviously, since Link relies on equipment, his utility is partially restricted by the fact the game has only had one chapter released so far, but as more chapters get released, Link's unique traits in his main job will become more prevalent.

Some of Snake's abilities like Move! or Assassinate do have very low base hit rates, but this is due to their relative power in Snake's hands.  Move!, for example, allows the character whose already the fastest unit in the game to trade his turn to any other unit on the field, regardless of range, which helps units normally balanced by low Speed to get extra turns and wreak havoc.  Snake is a strategic character who allows you to either make high risk plays with abilities like Move! or Assassinate or use Hide and his high Movement range to manipulate the battlefield to your advantage.

@Selius



These are the stats of the Five when leveled from 1 to 99 in their base classes and without any influence from Multipliers.  Note that this does include the fact Ramza benefits from Female MA and MP, which is the main reason he appears superior to the other units, as the other members of the Five all use Male Growths. 

Dante at 100 Speed Growth sports 11 Speed, while at 150 Speed Growth, Link and Cloud only lose 2 Speed.  Human jobs have an SPM of either 90, 100, or 113, with the exception of Snake's Job, which has 120.  At 90 SPM and 113 SPM respectively, the speed differences become:





Note that due to the nature of CT, Speed points are more important when Speed is lower than higher.  At their lowest (90 SPM), Cloud and Link get 80% of the turns of Dante, who has the "standard" Speed Growth.  At their highest (113 SPM), they get ~85% of the turns of Dante.  So no, they aren't penalized "25%".  Further, since you've at least got experience with things like SCC, it should be obvious that the game balance in Journey of the Five moves heavily away from the ability to oneshot or twoshot most units, even comparing the first chapter here to the first chapter of the original game.  This, and the higher prevalence of MP costs, mean the accelerated HP and MP Growth of Link and Cloud are important factors, both because of the increased utility of things like Move-HP UP / Move-MP UP / Regen / etc., and an enhanced ability to either spec themselves towards tanking or towards using stat-boosting equipment to further their offensive potential without risk of being quickly killed in later chapters where you'd both have a wide variety of equipment options and actually be Level 99.  It's also worth noting that in Journey of the Five, Haste only boosts Speed by 25%, which also lowers the importance of a difference between say, 8 and 10 Speed.  Once Hasted, a 8 Speed unit has 10 Speed while a 10 Speed unit has 12, a far smaller difference than the 12 and 15 Speed gaps that would occur in the base game, and would further be exacerbated by lots of Speed-boosting equipment that will be harder to come by in later Chapters of Journey of the Five.

The Five's base Jobs also don't contain the "best" stat growths, they merely contain more heavily slanted stat growths than the Generic Jobs which lean you toward what that character is known from in their main series.  Link comes out as a slightly bulkier Ramza with a bit less PA and MA, Dante comes out as a tank who can easily trade hits with anything, etc.  Generic Jobs have less exaggerated Growths, but there's nothing really "bad" about them as they follow the same basic rules as the Five's in terms of game balance.  They also become more focused as you get higher up the Job Tree.  For example, the Samurai has Growths very similar to the Duke, but has lower Speed Growth in trade for more HP and MP.

If you don't like the class, don't level up in it, but the disadvantage of 150 Speed Growth is far lower than you make it out to be, possibly because you're checking the stats via FFTastic and not a program like lvlsim or my Utilities Workbook and getting the wrong results, as FFTastic is only designed to be used with the base game.

Elric

^^ Yeah, uh, all of that stuff ^^
                         
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Selius

June 25, 2015, 12:44:48 am #24 Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 01:19:56 am by Selius
but the disadvantage of 150 Speed Growth is far lower than you make it out to be

i disagree. and i'm not getting the wrong results btw. i'm using the battle mechanics guidebook to match up multipliers, and jobs that have the same growths. also just tried the levelsim program and im getting the same results i got earlier.

9/12 = 75%

9 speed resolves in 12 ticks
12 speed resolves in 9 ticks.

9 speed link from base class versus 12 speed in almost any other class. that's a 25% difference in turns.

im trying to argue that 150 speed growth shouldn't be on anybody. it's not worth taking such a huge penalty in turns for the other stats. max hp and mp are nice and all, but you have to get a turn to get the regen. 25% more turns is 25% more regen, movement, reliability,etc.

with maximum base hp/mp values: (the actual values don't modify the difference between 9 and 11 growth, it's pretty much a static ~18% increase. (this is more for cloud than link, really).

soldier versus geomancer growths. geo has 105 hpm, soldier has 110.

all with 110 hpm:
9 hpc: 380
11hpc: 322

9mpc: 194
11mpc:164

even in your best ideal setup:
11 speed resolves in 10 ticks.
14 speed resolves in 8 ticks. it's still an extra turn for every 4 actions. a 25% increase.

then if we haste them.
13 speed resolves in 8 ticks
17 speed resolves in 6 ticks. a 25% increase.

tl;dr: a 25% loss in turns aint worth it

Elric

June 25, 2015, 03:32:54 pm #25 Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 03:58:52 pm by Elric
I like how you ignore everything else that was said and still push on something that's only relevant in a SCC and in a Vanilla mod, of which Jot5 is not and does not support.  The base jobs are based on who they are in their own games.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on June 24, 2015, 07:25:35 pm
The Five's base Jobs also don't contain the "best" stat growths, they merely contain more heavily slanted stat growths than the Generic Jobs which lean you toward what that character is known from in their main series.


TL;DR: This isn't going to change, branch out or suck it up, cupcake.

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RayKamiya

is it just me or do people expect to raise characters as their base job from initial level to 99?

I mean I try and branch specials out in many jobs, example I made Malak in Vanilla a Ninja and made his Hell Knight class a pseudo assassin or Classic Ninja depending on how I felt like raising him.

Rafa  I mostly made a White Summoner or a "red mage" by having her as a Heaven Knight with Math skill but only Cure, Cure 2, Cure3, Raise, Raise 2, Esuna, Haste, Slow, Don't Move, Stop, Blind, Don't Act, Berserk, Petrify, Fire, Fire 2, Fire 3, Ice, Ice 2, Ice 3, Bolt, Bolt 2, Bolt 3, Poison learned.

Agrias I mixed up usually because I raise her to be a paladin so she gets mage heavy but doesn't lose out on PA (To fix that i raise her remaining levels as a Mime)

but yeah special characters should be branched out when you are developing them.

KingUrameshi

It is hard to want to change the base classes especially on a first play through but ultimately necessary if just to make the game good. I think people who want to do a base class run through might want to change focus to a game like Vandal Hearts or Shining Force which are more linear.

It always pissed me off in Tactics that I could only use one reaction or support ability at a time. Imagine if we and the CPU could use two or three different ones at once. If the developers would have done that this game would be a million times better with almost infinite possibilities for combat. Its stupid how something so minor could completely change the game.
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Hyraldelita

Guys , there wll be a way to raise faith and brave like in FFT? i really don't get why it can't be raise permanent, specially since some classes come with very low brave/faith..

I mean i understand some reason why you would do that, but seriously i don't know you all but i wuold never use turn in a fight to raise brave and faith when i can do support spell or damage. plus to raise 10 faith/brave it doesnt change really much.

One of the part i liked a lot in FFT in general was that i had to raise brave faith or lower them based on how i wanted my characters.

But this is just my spculations, so can someone clear this doubt of mine? 


Elric

Brave/Faith alterations in Jot5 are not permanent.
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Nyzer

It's not permanent because it kind of ruins most of the point of Br/Fa in the first place. In vanilla, everyone just stacks 97 Br except your dedicated treasure finder, then you maximize your casters' Fa while minimizing it for most of your melee. Then the absurdly high Brave guarantees reaction abilities.

With it the way it is, you're coaxed towards some more diversity. For example, Snake is better suited to Jobs and Reactions that don't rely so much on Br/Fa. It makes Keen Senses much more useful for him than other characters.

It also makes the abilities that affect Br/Fa in combat useful for more than just optimizing your newest special character. If you want Cloud to shrug off magic damage, you have to hit him with the proper abilities during the fight instead of just chain Stopping an enemy while educating him about evolution for fifteen turns.
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Hyraldelita

September 15, 2015, 03:39:42 pm #31 Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 03:58:24 pm by Hyraldelita
man as i assume that all of you have played FFT A LOT, i assume that % for computer are much more meaning less, he doesn't get game over, and i can tell with absolutely NO DOUBT that the % to dodge and hit attack balance for the computer is totally weird, first of all the computer already know the damage he will do to your unit without checking so he doesn't really need to decide who to attack first second, it might be my impression? but after nearly 20 years that i keep playing this game i'm pretty sure computer counter way more then you do with the same brave, they break your equipe more with the same % , and evade more...  and again it can be my impression, since is just % but this happened always in all playthrough and for 18 years, so i really can't say having advantage by raising brave for counter ability is a bad things, it actually makes you lot less nervous. (or at least me XD)

Plus the computer doesn't really care when he got hit or not, i'm not telling this because i want the brave faith to be raise permanently, i respect your decision if that is what you decided, but except a couple of skill wich doesn't rely on brave ALL the other counters are brave % based.

Plus the fact that you can't raise faith permanently means that if you have a bad relationship with Signs'  for example Link with cloud, and you try to resurrect him or cast some other spell, well good luck, you'll need 5 turn to cast a protect or you see your char cristallized after you casted 5 resurrection that missed, this mean that you HAVE to bring someone with items in case cloud die, if you decided to have link priest.

In my eyes, this is pretty much a "play this way" way of see things, more then anithing, you don't like snake class? you want to make him another class? Sorry you can't ! cause he's brave is low, so forget to rely on counter ability, stick him all the game and all the classes with the same counter ability.

I don't know if you see my point...

Another reason is, you want to do it for balance? sorry but this doesn't make much sense either, since you have another 36234642624 ways, to make the game lot easier with combination of skill/classes. 

So is reaaally really up to who is playing to decide if they want an easier gameplay raising faith/brave lowering it, or not , don't you think?

Is like playing orlandu full speed equipe and strenght build, or "don't use orlandu" it's a choice which is up to the player, but if you take off the choice, in my point of view is like "you have to play this way, it doesn't really matter if you like it or not" XD

Still i repeat i completely respect your choice, i just wanted to give you my point of view ^^

really i don't want to look like the bad guy xD

P.S most of the time you're out numbered by enemies, and they got powered up with counter and skill (that previously they didn't have, which is perfect cause it's lot more fun this way..), so i really can't see any harm in letting people raise faith/brave if they want !

Xifanie

I guess we could balance things by making every special character's main job squire.
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Elric

Quote from: Hyraldelita on September 15, 2015, 03:39:42 pm
In my eyes, this is pretty much a "play this way" way of see things, more then anithing, you don't like snake class? you want to make him another class? Sorry you can't ! cause he's brave is low


Bullshit, I used Snake as a monk for a long time.

Quote from: Hyraldelita on September 15, 2015, 03:39:42 pm
Another reason is, you want to do it for balance? sorry but this doesn't make much sense either, since you have another 36234642624 ways, to make the game lot easier with combination of skill/classes. 


Just because YOU don't like it, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense, it means YOU don't like the way that bit of balancing was done. Which is fine, everyone is entitled to their opinions. We have plenty of tools on the site for which to make your own mod, which is what it sounds like you want to do at this point.

Quote from: Hyraldelita on September 15, 2015, 03:39:42 pm
So is reaaally really up to who is playing to decide if they want an easier gameplay raising faith/brave lowering it, or not , don't you think?

Is like playing orlandu full speed equipe and strenght build, or "don't use orlandu" it's a choice which is up to the player, but if you take off the choice, in my point of view is like "you have to play this way, it doesn't really matter if you like it or not" XD


Again, this is opinion, I'm not putting an Orlandu unit in game, because I think it's cheap as fuck, it breaks the entire game. Jot5 isn't supposed to be PSX Easy, it's supposed to be SNES difficult, without reaching NES Hard.

Quote from: Hyraldelita on September 15, 2015, 03:39:42 pm
P.S most of the time you're out numbered by enemies, and they got powered up with counter and skill (that previously they didn't have, which is perfect cause it's lot more fun this way..), so i really can't see any harm in letting people raise faith/brave if they want !


Again, you are welcome to make your own mod. However, Jot5 will no longer be editable in FFTP upon re-release, so it won't be the base for it.
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RayKamiya

Quote from: Hyraldelita on September 15, 2015, 03:39:42 pm
P.S most of the time you're out numbered by enemies, and they got powered up with counter and skill (that previously they didn't have, which is perfect cause it's lot more fun this way..), so i really can't see any harm in letting people raise faith/brave if they want !


well actually ALL monsters in Tactics had counter as a reaction, now they have changed and better reaction abilities to make it more challenging.

The only ones without counter were often the special monsters but again just about all of them had counter and reaction abilities all have the same formula to be set off Brave%

KingUrameshi

Quote from: Xifanie on September 15, 2015, 04:15:25 pm
I guess we could balance things by making every special character's main job squire.


I find that the unique base classes bring a real charm to the game from the outset and I would hate to see it changed to squire.
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Nyzer

Quoteman as i assume that all of you have played FFT A LOT, i assume that % for computer are much more meaning less, he doesn't get game over, and i can tell with absolutely NO DOUBT that the % to dodge and hit attack balance for the computer is totally weird, first of all the computer already know the damage he will do to your unit without checking so he doesn't really need to decide who to attack first second, it might be my impression? but after nearly 20 years that i keep playing this game i'm pretty sure computer counter way more then you do with the same brave, they break your equipe more with the same % , and evade more...  and again it can be my impression, since is just % but this happened always in all playthrough and for 18 years, so i really can't say having advantage by raising brave for counter ability is a bad things, it actually makes you lot less nervous. (or at least me XD)


You think the computer has different odds from the player? In my experience with any FFT game, this simply isn't the case, save for enemies that are supposed to.

QuotePlus the computer doesn't really care when he got hit or not, i'm not telling this because i want the brave faith to be raise permanently, i respect your decision if that is what you decided, but except a couple of skill wich doesn't rely on brave ALL the other counters are brave % based.


That's been the intent since the release of FFT. The problem is that they couldn't be bothered to find some way to make low Br useful in any way, so having permanent Br alterations ended up with everything with maxed out Br. The fact that four of The Five (and Agrias) come with high Br helps offset the issues you might otherwise have to deal with (lol randomized generics for half of FFT), and the last of The Five (Snake) comes from a game series that encourages stealth and tactical takedowns instead of blindly shooting things up. I'm not sure if you actually have any experience with MGS but one of the bonus objectives I've seen repeatedly in the series is to beat the entire game/mission without a Combat Alert. In short? It suits him.

QuotePlus the fact that you can't raise faith permanently means that if you have a bad relationship with Signs'  for example Link with cloud, and you try to resurrect him or cast some other spell, well good luck, you'll need 5 turn to cast a protect or you see your char cristallized after you casted 5 resurrection that missed, this mean that you HAVE to bring someone with items in case cloud die, if you decided to have link priest.


For one, Ramza. For two, Invigorate. For three, monk. For four, Focus Bracers. So no, you definitely don't need to bring someone with Items in that scenario.

QuoteIn my eyes, this is pretty much a "play this way" way of see things, more then anithing, you don't like snake class? you want to make him another class? Sorry you can't ! cause he's brave is low, so forget to rely on counter ability, stick him all the game and all the classes with the same counter ability.
QuoteBullshit, I used Snake as a monk for a long time.


So did I. And I used him with Regenerator as his Reaction. "Not optimized for monk" doesn't mean "useless as monk".

Never mind the fact that there are plenty of jobs Snake's good at in Ch. 1, and would be good at in Ch. 2 (when the equipment for those jobs opens up). Knight/Ranger/Rogue would all work well with his base class, and Dragoon/Ninja would be even better. Not to mention - especially if you've had issues with keeping Cloud alive, why would you not have someone as a Knight with Invigorate and Sacrifice? There are many drawbacks to only having a single healer/rezzer on your field. What would you do if someone got a Paralyze off?

QuoteAnother reason is, you want to do it for balance? sorry but this doesn't make much sense either, since you have another 36234642624 ways, to make the game lot easier with combination of skill/classes.


But it is the method that was chosen. And, I mean, you want to have one of the core balancing points removed from the game after it's already had years of work on it? That would be nowhere near as simple as you seem to think.

QuoteSo is reaaally really up to who is playing to decide if they want an easier gameplay raising faith/brave lowering it, or not , don't you think?


The Grand Theft Auto approach of in-game cheats allowing mechanics to be bypassed is rarely used in most other games for a reason.

QuoteIs like playing orlandu full speed equipe and strenght build, or "don't use orlandu" it's a choice which is up to the player, but if you take off the choice, in my point of view is like "you have to play this way, it doesn't really matter if you like it or not" XD


Orlandu is a terrible example, because he is an absurdly broken character you get during the main storyline. Again, this is not a common tactic for most game developers. You won't find an "easy mode wreck face" option in most games, particularly ones like Jot5 which are designed to be difficult. This is the same reasoning behind the removal of Arithmetician. Facerolling through every encounter, using overpowered characters as crutches, is not enjoyable gameplay.

QuoteP.S most of the time you're out numbered by enemies, and they got powered up with counter and skill (that previously they didn't have, which is perfect cause it's lot more fun this way..), so i really can't see any harm in letting people raise faith/brave if they want!


But these enemies don't have anywhere near the versatility of the players. Once you get your Five away from base/Chemist jobs, and start gaining some JP, you can stomp all over most of your opponents. And even in just their base jobs alone, Snake can activate his stealth camouflage and block enemies' paths or just attempt to Assassinate them from stealth, then run five spots away if he misses; Ramza can throw down some unevadable AoE damage; Dante can regen up and hit enemies from the far side of a wall; Cloud can Immobilize and then Omnislash enemies; and Link can keep everyone's MP up in between the occasional Song of Time if enemies close in. These are all tactics and/or abilities that your enemies won't use and/or don't have access to.

QuoteI find that the unique base classes bring a real charm to the game from the outset and I would hate to see it changed to squire.


I've a strong feeling that she's being sarcastic :P
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Hyraldelita

September 17, 2015, 05:34:47 am #37 Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 05:41:55 am by Hyraldelita
Elric, don't take it personal, i've said it was just my point of view, i would never change the patch myself , even if i was able to do it, there would be no point playing a patch if you modify if yourself no?

Aniway i read all the opinion of other people and i agree with some but i don't with others,

Mine were just small things that could happen, not that i have problem because of them !

I understand that you want to make the game harder, and in fact it's a lot better and more fun to play, but what i think is that it would be hard only at the start, because how nyzer said, after you unlock other classes/skills the game will be A LOT easier compared to the start.

And you guys really used snake as monk? off course you can do it, i didn't say it's impossible what i mean is since main damage of monk is based on str/brave , not having the chance to raise brave will keep his damage pretty low.

Another thing i think i've been mistaken... Yea snake is a stealth character and i used him exactly as he is supposed to be used.. but if you chance class and want to use other combination (without using his special skills) he's limited compared to others, lower damage and reaction %. And i don't think this is an opinion but more like a fact.

Quote from: Nyzer on September 16, 2015, 01:43:10 am
For one, Ramza. For two, Invigorate. For three, monk. For four, Focus Bracers. So no, you definitely don't need to bring someone with Items in that scenario.


Yea you have other ways to do so, but you will not likely be able to use resurrection on him since his low faith..
I agree that is off course wise to bring more then 1 char with a resurrection skill/spell, but i felt kinda limited by that, it's just my point of view as i keep saying, everyone got their own gameplay at the end no?

And again Elric, please don't take is personal, i already told you plenty of time this patch is the best i ever seen, i'm just stating what i think i could have be changed, that doesn't mean i don't want it the way it is.

And by changed i mean with minor effort, if someone even tell me "no since allowing brave faith will kill all the balance system we did" well i would understand my self that it's impossible to do so.

I'm not a scripter so i can't know how hard is it to do something and how much impact it has on the work you guys have to do to change it.
Mine are just opinions ^^

Than if you think they make sense you can decide on them, if for you they don't make sense, you can just say it without problem, i'm not here to flame or something.

Quote from: Elric on September 15, 2015, 04:23:40 pm
Again, this is opinion, I'm not putting an Orlandu unit in game, because I think it's cheap as fuck, it breaks the entire game. Jot5 isn't supposed to be PSX Easy, it's supposed to be SNES difficult, without reaching NES Hard.


Elric this is Exactly what i said.. it would be easy to use him so i don't, but people that are not good as us, might want to use it cause it make things lot easier.

I said it only for the sake of "let more people play this awesome patch"

I didn't say because i use it.

But after reading that you made this game to be VERY difficult then i have nothing to add about balancing.
Isn't "balance" meant to be something able to do by everyone?

If only good player can do it , it's not balance animore but a hard version of it (is balanceed for experienced players)

And again is just my opinion not a critic, really.

I love it the way it is, i just didn't know changing brave faith back to normal would be an hard work and send off the balance you guys wanted to create.

P.S Snake as his base class is perfect, even the low faith brave, the point is only when/if you want to use him in other classes, he will be less strong the normal recruit char. Yea you can use him anyway as someone said already, but he will still be less good then any others since his low brave/faith.

And again i just want to give a point of view, it's not like "change this because is bad" XD don't misurunderstand me please.

Elric

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RayKamiya