Designer's Challenge:

[Safaquel]

The goal is:
To change the interface or the spell system to fit the modern interface requirements, keeping the original FFTactics experience intact.

What would you do, if you were to re-design this particular part of FFT accurding to the mentioned requirements?

Somehow I haven't quite come up with a do-able and efficient solution. Simply eliminating the standard menu doesn't seem to work out, either.

P.S. I've already tried to envisage a system with pre-assigned spells for a mage within each battle, but that's Warhammer and hence doesn't fit in very well.

[Archael]

change the interface or the spell system to fit the modern interface requirements

What exactly is the "modern interface requirements" ???

[Safaquel]

Modern gaming interface usually requires for a player to be able to do as much as possible with as few actions as possible.

For examples, see:
Fable
Diablo
World of Warcraft
Xenogears(I know, whole another genre, but still can't fail to mention it)
Fallout(1,2 -- basically not overloaded)

Not a complete list, but hey, I can't name 'em all. Of all above, I consider Fable to be a perfect example. It is more of an action game, still posesses a very smooth control options, even though selecting spells can be something of a bother in realtime.

All those are still way above FFT in comfortability. See for yourself:

Casting a spell in Diablo -- 1 menu or pre-selected spell => 1 key, or 1 hotkey, which gives us instant spells, 1 targetting action

Casting a spell in Xenogears -- 1 button for menu, 1 menu choice, 1 targetting action

Casting a spell in Fable -- 1 actual spell selection, 1 casting action(both of them 1-button actions)

Casting a spell in Fallout -- you don't cast spells. Period.

Casting a spell in World of Warcraft -- 1 hotkey, or 1 pictogram, or 1 menu selection => 1 menu choice => 1 target(if not pre-selected)

Casting a spell in Final Fantasy 7 -- 1 menu choice(of usual 4 commands), 1 spell selection, 1 targetting action

Casting a spell in Final Fantasy Tactics -- 1st menu choice to Act, 2nd menu choice to do Black Magic, 1 spell selection, 1 targeting action, 1 redundant confirmation

Casting a spell in Final Fantasy Tactics: Calculator edition -- 1st menu choice to Act, 2nd menu choice to do Calc, 3rd menu choice to select method of calculation, 1 actual spell selection, 1 point where you see your spell misses all but one of intended targets, 1 redundant confirmation

See my point?

[boomkick]

The point of the FFT engine and so many steps is to add strategy like your the commander in the war, accessing damage and success rate.

[Vanya]

Not to mention mention that changing the interface is not possible for anyone at this forum yet. The only two people that can even come close are Zodiac and SentinelBlade.

[DarthPaul]

yea the interface is as big and bulky for the reason of giving you more choices for strategical attacking or in 1.3 defending


but Fable is a great game

[gojoe]

if this were a game of speedy actions would the title still include tactics? also whats the point if theres no atb?

[DarthPaul]

no it would probably be final fantasy hack and slash and cast a short list of spells

so abbreviated ffthscsls

[Safaquel]

if this were a game of speedy actions would the title still include tactics? also whats the point if theres no atb?

Question One: Jagged Alliance 2. Title or no title, if this one doesn't qualify as tactics, I don't know what does.

Question Two: ATB merely creates a stronger need for easy access to all options, while in a turn-based game you can take your time. However, while you can take your time, an endless repetition of redundant actions can be bothersome, as it forces the player to pay more attention to the command selection part, and less attention to the actual events of the battlefield.
In case of a calculator and given FFT's cumbersome spell targeting mechanics, this may even be extremely annoying.

The point of the FFT engine and so many steps is to add strategy like your the commander in the war, accessing damage and success rate.

Okay, point taken. Counterpoint bears the name of "Stella Deus". Turn-based, tactical, JRPG, still without redundant confirmations and with easy access to combat information.


The whole idea behind this topic is an assumption that we can and intend to alter the interface, perhaps while making a suitable clone/port on some other platform. The question is, how best to alter it. The spell system is the most cumbersome part and has the most menu choices, hence the proposal to alter the combat spell system altogether.

[DarthPaul]

i dont think its redundant to have all the checks and confirmations

[boomkick]

Not to sound like a jerk, but if the engine we have now is basically like shooting something half a mile away with an acuracte sniper rifle and a scope. All the necessary parts are there to confirm your choice of target and success and accuracy.

Your ATB, and fast ATBs in general, is just like shooting at the same target with a pistol and no scope.

Other then that, there is not much that is repetitive in FFT. It is very unlikely you choose the option over 10 times in a row without choosing another (except attack, since that is universal).

[Vanya]

There is little that can be done to FFT system without turning it into an RTS.
There are some minor improvements that can be made. Plus for the most part I don't see any redundant confirmations.

[KazeKasano]

Man, did you choose the most amazingly biased forum to post this in....

I know what you're getting at, though, and it's an interesting thought. It really is. However, it's just something that can't be done without ruining the soul of the game.
Now, a hack'n'slash game made with FFT graphics... That'd be something to look into...

[DarthPaul]

is just like shooting at the same target with a pistol and no scope.

hey!? thats how i got Voldemort

[Safaquel]

Man, did you choose the most amazingly biased forum to post this in....

I know what you're getting at, though, and it's an interesting thought. It really is. However, it's just something that can't be done without ruining the soul of the game.
Now, a hack'n'slash game made with FFT graphics... That'd be something to look into...

Hey, can I copyright that last idea?

Well, as for the ruining the soul of the game - well, if the interface designer messes up, then probably. If that bothers you, let's assume we are making a port. Or a clone. And we are targeting a platform like PC or PocketPC, for instance.
So, maybe we should utilize the mouse?

Your ATB, and fast ATBs in general, is just like shooting at the same target with a pistol and no scope.

Um, I don't recall mentioning making a turn-based tactics an ATB tactics. The idea has some geeky appeal, though. And thanks for the opinion on the subject.

[Tersius]

Final Fantasy Tactics is (and probably will always be) my favorite console game for gameplay.  It seems to have the perfect blend of strategy (AKA tactics) and role-playing.  That being said, I think Safaquel is right in saying FFT's interface is a bit clunky and dated.  I have tried countless times (especially with the release of the multiplayer function in the war of the lions) to get friends and family members to play FFT.  Those that decided it was not for them cited the menu driven nature of the game as their turn off.  Us die-hard fans may tolerate (or turn a blind eye to) the repetitive nature of a menu based interface, but many new players will not.

There are two major reasons that FFT was designed with a menu based system:  

1)  Final Fantasy Tactics is an older game.  It is old enough to be considered a classic.  In fact it is nearly old enough to be considered a legend in my mind.  (The fact that it is old and still talked about shows that it is a good game.  The fact that Safaquel would suggest changes to improve it also shows it is a good game.)  

2)  It was designed by a company that almost never designs games for the PC (the vast majority of Square's games are on consoles only).  It "was" (and I guess still is) accepted as common practice to have games be menu driven in the console world.  This comes largely from the limited number of buttons available to console games vs pc games.  Half of the games mentioned by Safaquel were originally PC games. PC games have the advantage of many, many more buttons available for mapping controls.  It is nothing in a pc game to map 10 skills to the number keys, call it the skill interface and then start working on the other controls such as movement, camera control, dialogue, etc.  Also, games designed for the PC seem to have the paradigm that menu driven is bad.  This has caused many PC game developers to actually spend the time to devise alternative interfaces.  Many of these interfaces just plain won't work in the console environment.  Ever play Diablo on the PSX?  IMHO it's controls were down right awful.

If done correctly, changing the interface of the game would not change the soul of the game.  Changing the way spells and abilities are selected does not mean the turn based nature of the game would be removed.  Nor does it mean the tactical information such as hit chances would have to be removed.  Indeed such information MUST NOT be removed to preserve the spirit of the game.
However, if such an interface was designed (I actually have some diagrams of something like this I have been passively working on over the past few years), there is still one very important limitation:  Such a change would be so drastic that I don't think ASM hacks could accomplish it.  Even if they could it would take a very very very long time and a lot of trial and error to accomplish.  It would be much simpler to rewrite the engine.  This begs a few questions:  Is a rewrite of a game still the same game?  Is it worth the time to do a rewrite or is your design time better spent designing something new?

[Vanya]

There in lies the dilemma. Why make anew engine when you can just ASM hack it. But, why spend the time learning toASM hack it when you could just rewrite it from scratch. They'll both take considerable time and effort.

[boomkick]

It takes a team to do that. That is basically rewriting an engine (like you said) and making a brand new game  based of FFT sprite and animation graphics. You are also utilizing the square moveset and the jump values. And what will someone do to make a spell cast when the target is moving???

[Vanya]

I has to stay turn based or it won't be FFT anymore.

[DarthPaul]

exactly like i said it would be ffthscsls