Final Fantasy Hacktics

There is already Diamond Armor for Blind immunity.  Making a blind-proof shield will do more for Grand-Cross squires than armor-classes by freeing up squires' accessory slot.  Grand-Cross squires are already pretty scary.  We sure we want to buff them?

I believe it would be used to break equipment regardless of its WP.  Each point of WP adds only 1% to a break's success rate, after all.

I would strive to demonstrate the usefulness of its reflect proc were it implemented.  It would be used to shield high-faith units from spells.  In this respect, it is best to implement it as a faith-driven spellgun, indeed.

I'm glad to hear that, Zotis.　　I am impressed by this season's entries, too.  There are many more competent teams this time around than in previous seasons. 

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on October 02, 2013, 05:02:19 pm
7) If you all are adamant about wanting a specialized breaker's gun, can't we just replace the stone gun with the rainbow gun?

I do not believe everyone is adamant about wanting a breaker's gun.  It is Dokurider's suggestion.

The primary purpose of the healing gun is to heal, so the gun should be judged accordingly.  The way I see it, the healing gun is a substitute for X-Potion; archers and mediators can throw these "X-Potions" at 5~6 Range without needing to equip Item or Throw Item.

Now, it is perfectly valid to question the necessity of this gun.  After all, if its primary purpose is to replace X-Potion, then its role is quite redundant!  That is why I propose that it adds reflect at a high (33~50%) percentage.  The AI is competent at using reflect to double-cast spells on targets and reach targets out of range.  However, there is currently no way to exploit reflect outside of making use of "Init: Reflect" equipment.  Depending on such equipment is not reliable because reflect expires on death and can be easily dispelled (especially once Dispel's AoE is buffed from 0 to 1).  This healing gun will offer a way to get around these difficulties by permitting the application of reflect in battle.

Dokurider: A summary of recent weapon proposals -- spears included -- was made a few months ago.  I can't blame you for failing to reference/notice them as I have not transferred them to the proposal thread.  And for a reason: We've been making 1.39 proposals for so long that if we were to request FFMaster to carry out every single one as they appear, patch 1.39 would never arrive.

Here are the spear changes.  A full list is on page 71.

QuoteSpear Moonlight: 9 WP, 10 W-EV, +1 SP, 50% Cast: Blade Beam
Mythril Spear Blood Spear: 11 WP, 10 W-EV, +1 SP, Drains HP
Partisan Odin's Lance: 11 WP, 10 W-EV, +1 SP, 20% Add: Dead
Holy Lance: 10 WP, 10 W-EV, +1 SP, Holy Element, 50% Cast: Holy Breath (Dmg_(MA*8))

Do any of these feel appropriate to you?

Quote from: Dokurider on October 01, 2013, 09:59:33 pm
Overall, [a healing gun is] a good idea, and I hope to see it implemented next version. Just don't give it a Reflect proc. That might mess up it's use on Support Magic teams.

You think it would?  There is a collection of basic support skills which ignore Reflect (e.g. Protect/Shell 2, Haste 2, Cure 4, Murasame, Masamune).  Also, the AI is clever at using Reflect offensively (e.g. casting Demi 2 on a single unit twice in a row for instant-death).  It's true that Black Magick self-absorption and Cure 1~3 would become ineffective, but I think that is a small sacrifice for this added potential.

On an unrelated note, would anyone mind if we buff Revive's Y value by 10~20?  Maybe I'm sore from the recent tournament, but witnessing a 300 JP, 0 Vert revival skill miss on good compatibility (multiple times) is harsh.  Surely such an expensive skill could use more reliability, especially considering that we're buffing the range of Revive's closest competitor, Wish, from 1 to 3.

These spells could use a little more power, in my opinion.  To start, it will be very difficult to push (PA+MA)/2 to 12.

Windstorm is equivalent to 0-AoE Bolt 2.

Rime Bolt is equivalent to 1 AoE, Dmg_F(MA*3.2) on average.  I'd be comfortable reducing its Vert to 1 (or even 0).  Even then, it will be no more frightening than a low-MA 3 CT Holy.

Maelstrom: Given its low range, this seems to be suited for melee units.  Accordingly, its CT could be lowered.

Phoenix Ray is equivalent to Shuriken which hits its caster as often as its target.   Maybe a slight damage boost is in order.

As a final note, these spells would go nicely with elemental mantles, as these mantles will block the self-damage of two spells.  Unfortunately, the mantles' EV doesn't mix well with 3~5 CT spells.  Maybe while we're ASM'ing, we can create a new reaction ability that allows units to cast spells without experiencing an EV penalty.

Hosting involves running a battle on your own computer and capturing the video, editing & compressing the video, then posting the compressed video on YouTube for others to see.

For this you'll need the most recent version of FFT Arena, a Playstation emulator, and video capture and editing software.  There are many different types of capturing and editing software.  I think Barren uses Camtasia for video capture.   Not sure about his editing software, though.  I used Sony Vegas to edit videos when I hosted a few years ago.

Heaven's Rain is not going to hit the caster on many maps if it has 0 Vert and finite Range.  A fix would be to give it 0 Range and finite Vert.

Heaven's Rain, Windstorm, Rime Bolt, and Earth Dragon are all capable of one-man barrages, especially in mid-to-late battle when units are KO'd, because of their 0 Vert (or small AoE in the case of Rime Bolt).  We will need to consider this when balancing these skills.

Quote from: Dokurider on August 29, 2013, 06:48:06 pm
This is specifically targeted to nerf team absorption. I don't understand how having to deal with skillsets without revival/status is a bad thing because it's not. With an offensive unit, you don't want that unit to have revival/status healing because having those skills on your offensive unit is a distraction and a detriment.

That's true, but Black Magic, Draw Out, and Lore users are typically mage types (low HP and SP).  Fielding additional mages for revival duty makes the team as a whole quite squishy.  Weapon absorption, on the other hand, is intrinsically weaker, as it heals only one target at a time.

Regardless, I wasn't aware that people viewed the self-absorption strategy negatively.  I think the strategy is easily confronted with a bit of one's own elemental resistance (particularly if Oil is changed to no longer override resistances -- have you made your decision about this, FFMaster?).  Ultimately, it doesn't feel that overpowered to me.  For instance, Reks' Severe Weather Alert probably utilises self-absorption to the fullest extent possible, but it still struggled in the ongoing tournament.

I'll resign myself if the consensus is to cut out self-absorption from the metagame.  At least I've given my input.

Quote from: FFMaster on August 29, 2013, 07:30:16 amAbsorb would also get neutered to 25% damage iirc.

Is this necessary?  Since the absorption flag prevents the opposing team from using the element against them regardless of its modifier, reducing this modifier only weakens self-absorption as a concept.  Self-absorption already has disadvantages.  First, such strategies must make do with skill sets that lack revive or status healing (i.e. Black Magic, Draw Out).  Second, such strategies have little room to invest in more than one or two elements, so they are in danger of being hard-countered by a strategy that resists these same elements.

Quote from: reinoe on August 03, 2013, 02:11:11 pm
Regarding the damage being dealt by Hidden Knife, isn't the actual probem kagesougi?  I mean the damage coming from regular attack Hidden Knife is not going to bring the world to it's knees.  Especially when you consider that Ultimus bow+Kagesougi is similarly problematic.  Although I'm fine with Hidden Knife losing the +1 speed as long as it still grants transparent.

It's listed to lose 1 SP, but it's keeping its WP and Always: Transparent, so it will still do its job.  Its 5 W-EV has also been removed, but I don't mind whether or not its W-EV is actually removed, personally.

Quote from: reinoe on August 03, 2013, 02:11:11 pm
I don't agree with the change for Hawk's Eye.  It's going to cost more MP because it procs oil and allows a second unit to kill it.  Isn't that precisely what oil is supposed to do?

The MP cost increase will hardly be felt if clothes get their listed MP boosts.  Personally, I would rather have it lose its 100% accuracy, but I'm not sure how popular this motion is.

Quote from: reinoe on August 03, 2013, 02:11:11 pm
Lastly I don't think Stone Gun should be getting a nerf based on being theoretically unbalanced.  While I think CT5Holy's recommendation of a blanket buff of +2WP to Crossbows is a little bit too much, a blanket buff of +1WP is fine.

Making Stone Gun force-2H nerfs only archers.  Mediators and Chemists are unaffected.  This change will make crossbows the designated weapons for P/MEV-stacked archers.  Personally, I feel that this falls in line with crossbows' 4 range: archers move themselves closer to harm to attack, so they get to use a shield in compensation.  Recognising that crossbows also proc a status effect, crossbow archers will be the tanky saboteurs.

Edit:  Here is a rough summary of recent proposals that are not yet in the proposal summary.  Many of these changes have not been debated by more than two or three people, so if anyone else wants to chime in, please feel free to do so!






Other things, such as leaving spellgun damage alone, but lowering spellgun range to 4, are also on the table.

Topics that were not summarised (or that I forgot) are not displayed here.  For example, there was a discussion about changing MP-damage abilities other than Bizen Boat that are not displayed.  That doesn't mean these topics cannot be discussed!

Quote from: AeroGP on August 03, 2013, 01:23:19 pm
Rock-paper-scissors without different (read: inequal) rewards is uninteresting. You can't incorporate what you're opponent is doing into your strategy, because there's nothing predictable influencing decision making, so team-design becomes almost entirely a single-minded activity. That's boring.

Only when the rewards of picking the counter-strategy compared to the dominant one are slim-to-none, and/or the dominant strategy hits a plateau that makes even designing counters in the game an impossibility, is it a problem. Otherwise, it's fine.

That's what SF4's producer, Ono-san, said about Yun and Yang in SSF4:AE.  His statement wasn't very popular with the fighting game community.

Quote from: AeroGP on August 03, 2013, 01:23:19 pm
The issue is that you're more focused on bringing the power level down when it's not even THAT high. This isn't Yun/Fei-long, this is C.Viper/Dhalsim. The solution is to bring everyone else up. Unless you're suggesting there's no reasonable way to do so, in which case prove it!

Ignoring the futility of proving a negative, you'll be pleased to find that most of the proposed changes for 1.39 are buffs.  The only substantial nerfs are spellguns, Kagesougi, and oil.  I'd say spellguns, Kagesougi, and oil are indeed that high.  Stone Gun's nerf is minor and is being done proactively upon observation of 1.37's metagame.

I'll quote myself before I begin to show you how I'm viewing your post.  You might not have caught it before posting, so:

Quote from: Gaignun on August 03, 2013, 06:48:48 am
Options with many more strengths than weaknesses are often called broken.  The fact that these options have weaknesses doesn't enter into the picture.  It is the balance of strengths and weaknesses, and not the existence of each, that assesses the option's worth.

Now, I'm trying to digest your criteria on what constitutes balance, but it's not very clear.  Help me out here:

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 am
If an optimized ranged attack has user HP > 252 at CT < 3 averaging damage > 400 * enemy faith / fury, it is broken.  I say 400 because that's the HP of a PA setup lancer.

So it's not broken as long as it deals fewer than 315~441 damage?  That's a little high.  Units that value something more than maximum HP (i.e. almost every unit) are going to be 1HKOd without perfume or (Magic) Defend UP.

Instead of running through the rest of your criteria one by one, I'll say this: your assessment of balance is quite binary. The message I'm receiving is either it exceeds a damage limit with the odd stipulation or two and is broken, or it is fine.  However, observing which attacks exceed an arbitrary number is not telling of balance.  If one attack averages 300 damage and another 150, these two attacks are unbalanced.  I'm not saying that observing damage limits is fruitless.  Indeed, it's good for keeping offense in check with defense.  But the issue here is the distribution of power between FFTA's many options, not the breaking of arbitrary limits.

Thus, my issue of spellguns and Stone Gun versus crossbows still stands.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 am
Due to the variety of anti-counters, it's helpful to establish a point system of their abilities.

I must voice caution toward the use of point systems.  The prescription of numbers to attributes flattens contextual differences which separate skills.  This makes comparisons deceiving.  Furthermore, the prescription of numbers can be quite arbitrary.  This is going to be a little pedantic, but let me explain by example:

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 am
Example:
Repeating Fist
Non-Elemental +1 Offense, -1 Team synergy
Non-Evade +1 Offense
0 Vert -1 Offense

The team synergy point means nothing if you don't intend to run an absorption strategy to begin with.  Similarly, non-elemental offense isn't necessarily an advantage, since you cannot boost the damage with elemental strengthening, so its damage is limited.  Also, having non-elemental offense means little if you intend to make use of Oil or break/steal equipment, a strategy which is useful in its own right.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 am
Hawk's Eye
Non-Evade +1 Offense
Weapon Elemental -1 Offense OR Team Synergy (Running an elemental weapon is riskier)
Statii +1.5 Offense (Oil + Poison are both added)
MP Cost -1 User (I set it to 18 because I'm keeping the old version of oil, so the hindrance is even larger than before)
CT Cost -1 User

This ties in with the Repeating Fist example.  I'd say the 100% accuracy of Hawk's Eye is better than the 100% accuracy of Repeating Fist.  First of all, Hawk's Eye can be used at a range, so it is much more usable.  Second, it inflicts Poison and Oil, but only if it hits.  Thus, the combination of these two attributes is greater than the sum.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 am
Stone Gun
Non-Evade: +1 Offense
Non-Elemental +1 Offense, -1 Team synergy
Early Game Weakness + AI Stupidity with Cancel: Petrify: -1 Team Synergy OR Risk

I said this only a few posts ago, but Stone Gun's early game weakness is irrelevant on all but the smallest maps.  In fact, spending a turn cleansing petrify keeps your archer at the back of the party, where he should be.  This also helps keeps your party from running into mid-field at the same time and getting blasted by AoE.

Now to explain the point system's weakness: In these three examples, you prescribed Repeating Fist and Stone Gun 0 points and Hawk's Eye -0.5 points.  Stone Gun aside, this point system tells us that that Hawk's Eye is weaker than Repeating Fist.  I assure you that this is not the case.  Hawk's Eye's is gnarly.  First, it can be used from virtually anywhere, as it takes on its user's weapon's range.  Second, it deals solid HP damage (e.g. with Mythril Bow).  Mix in the fact that its damage is optimised by boosting SP, which further boosts its DPS.  Third, it adds poison and oil.  If the victim subsequently dies from elemental-amplified damage or what have you, the poison proc lingers, so Hawk's Eyes effect lasts even beyond death.  Furthermore, poison and oil cannot be healed at the same time.  If, by some chance, the victim survives, its party must spend three turns on damage control: healing the lost HP, cleansing poison, then cleansing oil.

Repeating Fist is actually weaker by comparison.  First, it has 1 range and 0 vert, so there are fewer opportunities to use it.  Second, it does not add ailments which last beyond death, so it costs the victim's party only one turn of damage control (i.e. healing the lost HP).  However, by following the results of the points system, we must conclude that Repeating Fist is stronger.

This is what I mean by flattening contextual differences.

In the end, the prescription of numbers is quite arbitrary.  For example, I disagree with your assessment of Stone Gun.  Stone Gun does not deserve to lose an equal amount for Init:Petrify as Repeating Fist does for 0 vert.  Similarly, is Repeating Fist's non-elemental offense and 100% accuracy equally deserving of 1 point?  Non-elemental offense is relevant only if your opponent is running elemental defense, whereas 100% accuracy is relevant in general.  In fact, if players throw out elemental defense in favour of mantles or perfumes due to threat of 1.38 Oil, then non-elemental offense is entirely irrelevant.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 am
Spell Gun (in S7)
...
(In short, this would be balanced if pilgrimage didn't exist.)

I'm glad you observed this on your own.  Pilgrimage is the spark which led to the shifting of spellguns to the nether formula.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 am
Your oil example was pretty telling; all you did was tell me that two units with synergy will kill any given non-tank (i.e. running DEFUP or unyielding) around 75% of the time, which to me seems pretty normal.

It kills the target 75% of the time on the assumption that the target is equipped to block the spellgun's element.  75% odds of having your counter neutralised (i.e. elemental defense) is a slap in the face to the idea of a counter.  Two-swords + spellgun is enough to kill all other units 100% of the time.  That's not normal at all.

You might want to check your math, but this combination is enough to kill even tanks.  Optimised Glacier Gun deals 224~314 damage (pre-Pilgrimage) to oiled units with Magic Defend UP.  Two concentrated Short Edges will do around 172~242 more.  That's enough for a 2HKO.

Now, concerning Golden Hairpin:

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 am
Outside the Niche
+10 HP, +50 MP =?= +1 MA or +2 PA...and I'd say 35-65 it goes towards the latter.  I say that because only MP deficient classes (read: bard, archer, ninja, thief, often with MMPUP) who use MP-dependent skills really favor the first over the second.  Most mages have enough after their robe that they're fine.

Data from S2 says its 25-75 in favour of Golden Hairpin.  Of the 21 units with Golden Hairpin, only 7 are using it to boost Holy/Dark damage.  Accounting for this makes it 33-66 in favour of Golden Hairpin.  You just explained that rounding out your party is better than maximising damage, right?  Well, many players enjoy the added security of 10 HP and 50 MP.  10 HP can mean a great deal to mages.  With HP in the mid-to-high 200s, +10 HP can mean the difference between a 1HKO and a 2HKO.

The remaining points are pretty minor, but:

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 amIf this was 2 CT + Gaignun's cursed ring changes,...

The Cursed Ring change isn't mine.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 am
What's actually more likely to be devastating is Sc / ?? with 256 HP and faith rod / holy miter / earth clothes / magic gauntlet with MATKUP spamming quake with 2 CT, AoE + Self-Heal, same damage vs. 40 faith, but being able to only use her spells three times should count against the setup.

Scholars are being replaced by Druids.  Their MA is taking a hit.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 am
Dark: Dark attacks are not a reliable primary attack element because of how popular dark absorb is between cursed ring and black costume, and the fact oil has no effect on it.

We're trying to change this, first with the Cursed Ring SP nerf, and second by shifting Thief Hat's water elemental resistance to Green Beret so that Thief Hat + Black Costume ceases to be the single trusty hat+armor combination.  This is done precisely to make the Dark element more reliable.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 am
Niche items are intended to be better within their niche than anything else; that is normal.  They are also supposed to be outclassed outside their niche.With that, I think there's enough balance on the silver bow that 13 WP, +2 MA, 33-40% holy would be fine.

Silver Bow with +2 MA doesn't outclass things just outside its niche, it outclasses everything.

Let's be reasonable.  The reason why you want Silver Bow to have +2 MA is because you want mages to use it well.  Unfortunately, mages aren't designed to use PA-based weapons.  It's not a good idea to break the entire weapon balance for the sake of going against this.  If you want to equalise the tradeoff between Equip X and (Magic) Attack UP, boost mages' PA.

Anyway, Bards (which will likely be the designated users of this new Silver Bow, MA bonus or not), can deal solid damage (328~460 at 40%) without MA bonus.  With the MA bonus (on Silver Bow and Golden Hairpin), that's 379~531.

Quote from: AeroGP on August 03, 2013, 05:53:41 am
Making compromises and adjusting against dominant strategies is what makes team-building interesting in the first place.  I'm sorry that there are players that just want to use the best available and nothing more, and that having to deal with them bores you, but this is how competition works?

I agree with you on what makes team-building interesting, but we seem to disagree on the concept of dominant strategies.

Allow me to discuss what my idea of a meta-game is:

Short version: Equal distribution of power > Dominant strategies vs counter-strategies

Long version:

To me, a healthy meta-game is akin to rock-paper-scissors.  You have three options. All are equally usable because each has as many strengths as weaknesses.  (i.e. each option defeats one, loses to another, and ties the third.)  Simple example.

Games with many more options are, naturally, harder to balance.  Due to human fallibility, there will always be strategies that have more strengths than weaknesses.  Options with many more strengths than weaknesses are often called broken.  The fact that these options have weaknesses doesn't enter into the picture.  It is the balance of strengths and weaknesses, and not the existence of each, that assesses the option's worth.

(Sorry to those who don't follow fighting games, but I'm going to invoke some fighting game history here.)

This is especially true for competitive games.  Street Fighter 3 Third Strike is a much-loved competitive game, but it is terribly unbalanced.  It has 19 characters, but only three (Chun-Li, Yun, and Ken) are regularly used.  In tournaments, the meta-game involves picking characters and developing strategies to counter solely these three.  (Often, these strategies involve picking these very characters yourself.  After all, Chun-Li's only weakness is Chun-Li herself.)  This harms variety.  After all, there are 19 characters to choose from, and most are never chosen because they require you to work so much harder to achieve the same performance.

Balancing out this uneven distribution of power is the whole point of balance patches.  Capcom has been attempting to round out the cast of Street Fighter 4 for over four years.  When it was understood that rush-down characters Yun and Fei Long were god-tier, they nerfed them.  It didn't matter that they were weak to fireballs.  Only Sagat and Ryu could use fireballs competently against Yun and Fei Long, so the meta-game was basically about picking from 4 characters (Yun, Fei Long, Sagat, or Ryu), or preparing yourself to fight against overwhelming odds.  Furthermore, Yun's and Fei Long's strengths totally eclipsed other rush-down characters such as Rufus.  Rufus had dropped off the radar, and variety in SF4 had suffered for it.  The balance patch nerfed Yun and Fei Long so that characters like Rufus are worth using again.  Variety was restored.

In our case, spellguns/Stone Gun/Hidden Knife is Yun/Fei Long, Projectile Guard/White Robe/Perfumes is Sagat/Ryu, and Rufus is crossbows.  The current meta-game is about watching Yun and Fei Long dominate, watching Sagat and Ryu being picked to counter Yun, and lamenting over how ineffective the remaining 35 members of the cast are.  If this is your idea of a healthy meta-game, then there is nothing more I can say.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 01:52:42 pm
I've noted two problems with how a lot of people reason on here about items (myself included).  It often leads to unnecessarily extreme changes.
1) Direct comparisons with other items rather than a holistic evaluation of the metagame, especially other items of the same equipment type.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 01:52:42 pm
Hence, I would consider the effect of Ignore: M-EV on my mages to be way less useful than Initial:Reflect, Strengthen: All, Absorb: Element X, or Always: Shell.

I assume the second quote is an example of the first point.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 01:52:42 pm
2) If no one is using it, it needs a buff.  If it makes some choices irrelevant on some classes or too many people are using it, it needs a nerf.

There's a difference between "not used" and "not worth using."  There's a lot of crap that's not used that we aren't buffing, either.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 01:52:42 pm
This one is addressed more towards you, Gaignun (and the Damned / Malroth, too, I think).
3) We clearly have a different idea of what is balanced.  Given FFT's base mechanics and how the AI thinks, I think FFT Arena is most balanced when
Optimized Offense < Defensive Hard-Counter < Offensive Anti-Counter < Defensive Soft Counter or Marginal Tricks

Bear in mind that I am only managing the proposal thread.  I am not arbitrating all the documented changes.  Anyway:

Your third point essentially describes what a meta-game is.  Yeah, there should be counters and anti-counters.  That's meta.  What there shouldn't be are strategies that dominate 90% of all others. 　I don't care which of the four groups it falls under.  These include spellguns and Hidden Knife setups.  Before 1.38 it was Stone Gun, Berserk, Holy, and Ninjutsu.  The reasons why we are enjoying respite from Stone Guns now is because we now have weapons that are even more ridiculous: Mythril/Ultimus Bows (especially with 100% Hawk's Eye) and spellguns with Pilgrimage.

Don't take my word for it: we have 22 archers distributed among 35 entrants in S2, a higher ratio than ever before.  All but 3 are using a spellgun, Stone Gun, or Mythril/Ultimus bow.  When you play to win, you pick the gear that gives the most benefit.  If you invest in niche, hoping to counter something specific, you will likely lose in the first round without even encountering what you anticipated.  That's why I don't agree with niche gear like "anti-mediator headbands."  If the gear's intrinsic worth is only countering something specific, and if this "something specific" is not currently a dominating strategy, it's not going to be worth using compared to its alternatives.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 01:52:42 pm
6) Under my direction, game balance will typically involve not power escalation as much as increasing the types of roughly equivalent serious threats until they exceed the maximum capacity of a team to block them all while still being able to attack. 

That's what we're trying to do, too, so, uh, maybe you could join the team rather than overthrow us.

As for power escalations, a common theme among the listed changes is lifting up the bottom and hammering down the top.  The bottom doesn't even need to be lifted too high if the most egregious offenders are hammered down well enough.  That's why crossbows are nearly unchanged: spellguns and Stone Gun are being reigned in so that crossbows no longer live in their shadow.  I don't consider this a power escalation at all.

Of course, we can discuss which buffs you think are unnecessary on a case-by-case basis.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 01:52:42 pm
A broken threat is a unit or combination that kills or incapacitates most things without fail while retaining a competent level of defense, and requires bad setups to counter.  A serious threat is not broken until it reaches that 1-hit level.

Wait a minute.  I assume by "broken" you mean "bad."  So how do you defend spellguns and your magic-concentrate accessory?

Spellguns hit at 100% from 6 range (or 4 in your case, which is still as good as crossbows), 1HKO most mages without Shell, and pass right through elemental defense with the aid of oil.  Oil is applied:

1. using Short Edge, with the assistance of 100% accuracy from Hidden Knife, on nimble melee classes.  Even if oil doesn't proc, the two swords deal reliable damage and the target ends up having to get healed anyway.
2. using wide-AoE Black Magick Fire, which will also have 100% accuracy with your version of Genji Gauntlet

The only reliable counter is Projectile Guard: 300+250 JP for a reaction ability that coincidentally counters Crossbows, which are already a joke compared to these spellguns.

I don't know how closely you've been following FFTA over the past several months, but it appears that many people are tired of forcing their units to run White Robe or Projectile Guard to avoid eating 200+ damage Glacier Gun shots from 10+ SP archers.  Having to counter-build against spellguns all the time is stifling the opportunity to equip other gear, many of which are unused and which we're trying to encourage the use of.  The idea is to add enjoyment to FFTA by adding variety, not leave it a game of "Block Spellgun or Die."

Similarly, Magic Concentrate + Faith Rod + Short Charge is going to Frog, Paralyze, Sleep, etc. everything without resistance 70~100% of the time.  (That's 100% against all mages; as if they didn't have it bad enough.)  Magic Concentrate + MA Gear + Magic Attack UP is going to deal 216 damage AoE Chirijiraden 100% of the time.  What is the counter to this?  Setiemson and Magic Defend UP.  Two counters which are overburdened, given that they are already counters to all magic damage already.

In brief, you're taking a card out of hand that has little to begin with (M-EV) and putting it in a hand that already has more than enough (perfumes).
   

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 01:52:42 pm
Hence, deeply polarizing items or items / skills / effects that break existing limits are a good thing, because the idea is to eventually have a game where the perfect defense cannot exist, but the optimal offense will ultimately be a test of skill, luck, and psychology.

If by breaking limits you mean makes the majority of other things not worth using, then I disagree.   Anyway, yes, there shouldn't be a perfect defense.  Nothing in the proposal summary (except for the Save the Queen/Ragnarok changes) hints toward such.

By the same token, there shouldn't be a perfect, or perfectly reliable, offense, either.  The biggest culprits are 100% accuracy weapons and skills.  You can explain what an ideal metagame is all you like, and I'll agree with you.  But FFTA's metagame isn't as sophisticated as you think.  These are AI battles.  Computers are deterministic.  Battles are nearly decided before they begin.  In tournaments, you choose a single team, then spend the next month watching where the chips fall.  The only variation is provided by the fickle RNG.  Investing in 100% accuracy attacks removes this variation in your favour.  This provides an overwhelming advantage.  To counterbalance this, no unevadable weapon or ability should require specific setups (e.g. Projectile Guard, elemental+Oil resistance) to counter.  For every universal advantage there should be a universal counter.  In this case, the counter is achieved by keeping unevadable damage low so that it is easily healed.  Otherwise, the balance is tipped and I cry myself to sleep every night.

Yikes.  This is going to take awhile.  I thought The Damned's posts were long...

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
I liked the old Genji Helm as I could create high move PAL or Sm with lethal damage who could then revive / be revived and function in another capacity.  The only reason why I retired my berserker team was that spellguns were too deadly at range.  If we take my range nerf (or your damage nerf to spellguns), I think Genji Helm would become viable again...  Furthermore, the new Genji Helm is still a very niche item. 

The Genji Helm is about making Heaven's Cloud (Draw Out) worth using, and making Samurai worth using for Draw Out in general. 

There is already Salty Rage for Auto Berserk.  It's better to add a new niche than duplicate an existing one.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
No Sm or PAL would use it over Chiri-katana except to boost the two weapons listed and even then, it's questionable if that's really better than Asura + Reraise Helm.

C Bag + Genji Helm is going to be more powerful than Chirijiraden + Circlet.  And yeah, there's also boosting of Heaven's Cloud and Kikuichimoji.  That's two good reasons in my book.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
Lastly, that equipment change does not address the problem I raised with Kiku's proc requiring a totally different setup than the setup needed to boost Kiku's attack damage.  This is why I think reverting to the Grand Cross model for Kiku would have more general use.

The Quake proc exists to add a little bonus damage on top of what is already a powerful weapon.  It's like Ice Brand's Ice 2 proc.  I don't think it's ever been about maximising attack and proc damage concurrently.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
I actually have many good reasons not to run pilgrimage and/or overwhelm which would guarantee the 1HKO against less tanky non-mages.  Doing so means no MHPUP, 70 faith, and a gaping hole in either my magic defense or my status defense as I cannot run both reflect and shell on archer, chemist, or mediator.

Unfortunately, you are not everyone, FDC.  Max damage spellguns are prevalent.  There's little need to cover holes in your defense when you make the opposing team spend all its time healing.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
As for the nether gun proposal...if you all do that and don't retain current base damage levels, then 2H would not be needed, but the new guns will be as bad as they were before S6.  Honestly, I'd go back to using a stone gun except on the aforementioned evasion setup tank archer.

Yeah, it's not going to be a showstopper anymore, and that's the point.  No weapon with innate concentration should be crippling its targets with every use.  That being said, it will indeed be more useful than 1.37 guns:

• It can be used on turtling teams, as 40 Br maximises its power


• It can be combined with Oil for big damage.  (Oil as we know it didn't exist in 1.37.)

I mean, I went pretty far with a Blast Gun Chemist in S1, and I had to cover the Chemist's 70 faith with Setiemson for it.  If Blast Gun used Unbrave, I could have kept his faith lower.

As for comparison to Stone Gun, spellguns can also be used on absorption teams, whereas Stone Gun cannot.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
M-EV-ignoring accessory

My complaint is that an accessory that ignores M-EV, and grants 1 MA to boot, is just too good.  We want to give people more reasons to invest in M-EV, not fewer.  M-EV is one of the most trusted counters to status magic.  Create this accessory, and I guarantee that we'll see Faith Rod + Magic Concentrate units with Short Charge frogging and sleeping everyone to death.  Draw Out certainly doesn't need buffing, either.

This isn't about parity with other accessories.  This is about common sense.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
2) That being said, I'd still say Ninjitsu in S6 is at most above-average, but not broken.  Neither AeroGP nor I won S6 despite having such powerful ninjitsu teams, and Avalanche beat me despite running two units with Initial:Innocent.

AeroGP didn't make it very far because he went super-meta against Tons, the very abilities whose threat you are downplaying.  As for your team, if memory serves, you made it quite far.  Wasn't your team's weakness defense, anyway?  I remember your sole raise 2 user was a 17 MA scholar.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
4) The added security argument of 40 faith is self-defeating because the more ninjitsu damage becomes as a threat, the less safe 40 faith becomes and the more one is forced to run reflect, MEV, DEFUP or Protect.  Of course, of those, the latter two are clearly superior as they allow a 70 Fury setup.

I don't follow.  Investing in 70 Faith makes you susceptible to other 70 Faith setups, too, and there are a lot more spells with Faith formulae than Unfaith formulae.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
5) Your changes didn't really fix the average Y; all you did to the average ninjitsu (Meiton with Y = 9) is add Anti-Counter.

You can only use one Ton at a time, right?  If you are against teams with no wind resistance and you use Fuuton, that's a Y buff of 1.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
A) The best -ton class is Monk, but from my experience, damage setup Mk / Nj with Shuriken really fears no reaction other than HP Restore, which I cannot really predict for.

Yeah, the Meiton buff is the weakest of the three.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
B) If I also run Shuriken, then the AI will only use meiton when the enemy faith is low.  If we combine your monk and ninja changes, Mk / Nj will only use ninjitsu over monk skills when the enemy's brave is also low.

You're assuming the Monk will invest his JP in both Punch Art and Ninjutsu.  I don't think there's enough JP for that to begin with.  Even if there is, I'd say the Ninjutsu serves a role: taking down tanky 40 BrFa teams.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
Kibaku Fuda stuff

Kibaku Fuda's optimised damage is ~160.  In addition, it will become Ninjutsu's sole AoE ability.  That makes it not-so-specialised, in my opinion.  Alas, we must wait to see how well the AI uses it.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
Once Kagesougi is nerfed, the [nerf to Hidden Knife] is utterly unnecessary.

Hidden Knife was a problem long before 1.38 Kagesougi.  It is used in almost every two-sword setup, and it is the sole reason why Ninja never bother to equip Concentrate.  This nerf has been a long time coming.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
Why [are Iga/Koga knife changes] necessary?  Isn't wind already one of the weakest of the elements in terms of weapons?  Or is it because thief hat too easily blocks the combo?  Considering that this is combo can deal ~390 damage at maximum power, is that really a bad thing?

I think this is Raven's change.  I think it is indeed because of Thief Hat.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
[Save the Queen and Ragnarok changes are] awful idea.

Noted.  Do you have a better proposal for Save the Queen and Ragnarok?  They aren't exactly making waves.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
Giving Excalibur effectively 17 WP is just asking for trouble with grand cross.

The change is to make Excalibur useful for something other than Grand Cross.  The current Excalibur deals less damage than Chaos Blade.  What's more, Excalibur does not dispel buffs on hit like Chaos Blade.

I didn't think the change is such a problem given that Ice Brand + Kaiser Plate is just as powerful  and adds M-EV on the side. 

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
[The Stone Gun nerf] makes no sense, really.  Maximum damage of 192 after ATKUP isn't broken, even if the damage is unevadable and you run an evasion + HP setup archer + warpath.  The bonuses are nice, but really are hardly stronger than the ninjitsu evasion bots I ran on Heresy (right after the Heretic Ring nerf). 

(Maximum damage is actually 211 (70v70 Br), but regardless:) What other weapon deals this much unevadable damage from 6 range on a class with 9 SP, all the while requiring no stat maximisation?  None.  The closest comparison is Ultimus Bow (214 damage at 70v70 Br), and that requires Twist Headband, Power Sleeve, and Bracer.  Of course, you get no shield, either.

There isn't much to gain comparing the damage to 1.37 Ninjutsu, given that Ninjutsu was nerfed for precisely the same reason.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
[Silver Bow] must be competitive with spellguns (assuming my refusal to change their damage); hence, 13 WP should still be paired with +2 MA so mages are properly compensated for

Differences about spellguns notwithstanding, making the weapon useable on mages is one thing.  Making the weapon not break the game is another.  Looking at the math, +2 MA will make a 40% Cast: Holy Silver Bow overwhelmingly powerful.  Here are optimised setups:

Male Archer
70 BrFa, 9 SP, 14 PA, (4+2) MA, Holy Strengthening, Attack UP
Weapon+Proc: 292~409
Average: 239~335

Male Bard
70 BrFa, 8 S, 8 PA, (16+2) MA, Holy Strengthening
Weapon+ Proc: 375~531
Average: 212~298

Holy Bow's closest competitor is Ultimus Bow:

Male Archer
70 Br, 9 SP, 16 PA, Attack UP
Weapon: 200~281

Keep in mind Archers have an easier time running max offense setups, since they fire from a distance.

Even without the +2 MA, Holy Bow is still stronger than Ultimus Bow.  I'm inclined to drop Holy Bow's WP even further, to 12, to keep longbows balanced.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
1) The whole point of cross helm was to use MP costs on physical jobs as a limiter of how many times they could spam their skills.  In short, the cross helm previously granted crap HP bonuses because it was intended to force knights into accepting either subpar HP or insufficient MP.

And so armor classes equip robes or make effective use of Absorb/Restore MP instead.  Cross Helm is not worth the HP and status-resistance penalty.  It is getting buffed on the observation that it is never used.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
2) Similarly, adding more HP bonuses to +max PA/MA/SP gear essentially lessens the penalty for running a max-power setup, i.e. the risk of getting 1HKO'd in return.  You should risk a 1HKO if you run a 253 HP ninja whose sole purpose is to deal massive damage.

This is a good point.  I'm willing to scratch the HP boost from Twist Headband and Holy Miter if this motion proves popular.

There has been an overwhelming opinion that Secret Clothes needs its buff, however.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am[The Golden Hairpin nerf] is entirely uncalled for considering that the only really dangerous units still using this are Barren's Koutetsu Draw OUt user (from Big Assault) and my holy spammer (from S6 / Raiders).

Actually, it's been called for for at least a year, and so it exists.  Golden Hairpin trumps Holy Miter hard, especially when using Light/Dark elements.  Would you not agree that +50 MP, +10 HP, and Holy+Dark Strengthening is worth 1 point of MA?

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
4) The headband changes make no sense.

Give The Damned some credit, man.  He's right in observing that people either use the 80 HP/ 80 MP headband for MP or the 70 HP headband for superior status resistance.  The third headband is never used.  They have been balanced to encourage use of all three.

Instead of designing headbands to serve as hard counters to specific setups, how about we distribute their attributes across all three so that they are useful in many sitations?

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
I prefer [my Power Wrist change] as 15 P/M-EV makes units more adaptable vs. the spread rather than only blocking physicals.

And I prefer mine because it leaves PA classes (the ones who will use this) exposed to magic.  Mixed P/M-EV is the duty of mantles in my opinion.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
If we call Defense Ring: Absorb: Water, Null: Silence, Berserk, Stop, then Jade Armlet should be Null: Ice, Dead, DS, Petrify, Sleep, Slow.

Fine with me.  The point is that the current Defense Ring nulls too much and the current Jade Armlet nulls too little.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
I fear [Wish] may be stronger than PD now.

That's fine with me.  Phoenix Down costs half the JP, never misses, and is on a skillset that heals and cleanses status ailments as well.  I assure you that people won't jump from Item to Basic Skill just for Wish.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
What is the reason for this?  The original Cure4's healing effect should not be decreased, as it's still the best way to heal a high faith unit through reflect, which on a defensive magical status team, or a SC'd faith rod team, are staples of the defense.

And it will still be the best way to heal through reflect.  I'd rather pull off a 250+ heal than attempt a 300+ heal and get midcharged.  Often the 300+ heal heals more than necessary, besides.  If you still want the super-big heals, you can painlessly substitute Short Charge for Magic Attack UP, as the new Cure 4's CT is equal to the old Cure 4's CT with Short Charge.

At any rate, Cure 4 is still going to fulfill its original purpose, so I don't see where the beef is.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
Although the new Bad Luck is certainly more likely to proc something useful, it's also too similar to Mediator (and thus, much easier to block, especially with my monk changes)

Just a minor point, but please don't discount present changes by invoking personal changes you propose in the same post.  These changes are listed without yours in mind, after all.

Actually, I can see myself doing this, so I'm not one to judge.

That said, I have no comment about the Bad Luck changes.  Would the person who made it like to comment?

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 amI'm not sure why [P Bag] needs changing, but if we making Quick Book instead of Flare Book, I don't think this will be necessary.

Priest smacks enemy with bag.
Bag deals 5 damage.
Enemy counter attacks with dual-wielded swords.
Priest dies.

It also assists the use of difficult-to-use spells, such as Solution.  Everyone can use bags; not everyone can use books.

Case in point: Just today in a match featuring Barren against reinoe, Barren's Mediator chose to slash with a knife, and thus waste her turn, rather than use Mimic Daravon at a critical moment.  If this Mediator had a P Bag equipped, she would have invariably used Mimic Daravon.   

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
1) Maybe the person who designed [the new Ninjutsu skills] can explain this better, but other than MP restraints, why does Misogi get rid of Faith if Heretic does the same thing?

Certainly.  Heretic is not used to get rid of Faith proactively, as far as I know.  Misogi, on the other hand, can get rid of it incidentally when cleansing other status effects such as Poison.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 amFurthermore, what does [Misogi] do that stigma magic, refute, or heal can't do (and in particular, why was silence chosen when none of the ninjitsu skills have anything to do with silence)

Misogi keeps the ninja from wasting turns healing party members.  The ninja is an offensive unit.  With Misogi, he keep himself, and only himself, healthy.  This sustains offense as efficiently as possible.

Also, it cleanses silence lest MA units care to use Misogi as well.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
1) The nerf to oil's effect neuters the entire idea of blocking a team's elemental synergy to only blocking items like white robe and thief hat.

And the current oil neuters the entire idea of blocking elements in the first place.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
3) Berserk and Silence should not be as much a concern for mages now that at least one piece of gear nulls both with a decent team synergy effect and 100% silence weapons are removed.  Berserk and Blind similarly shouldn't bother anyone unduly now that
A) We aren't nerfing spellgun damage.
B) Monk related changes

The jury's still out on these ones, isn't it?

Edit: Some Monk stuff now that I found more time

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
E) As someone who did spam battle song + monk, I will tell you that the threat of the quadratic monk formula is overhyped.

View it from another angle: The quadratic formula makes Punch Art toothless on every class other than Monks.  It's going linear to help classes that don't have 13 base PA.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
1) Giving monk MP costs on all his offensive skills forces too many other changes down the line.  This is not because of the necessary balancing act that will now result in creating a monk (as monk's MP reserves are sufficient and monk has chakra), but because doing makes it impossible to predictably counter bizen boat users by physical skills ...

Plain old physical attacks counter Bizen Boat nicely.

Anyway, Bizen Boat is... a problem for many things, to say the least.  I think it's better to solve this by changing Bizen Boat.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
changing the elemental on earth slash actually counts as a nerf as the easiest option for boosting a monk's attack is earth clothes, killing a decent team strategy in using a permutation of Earth Dragon + Quake + Kiku + Earth Slash.

The nerf is intentional.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
Repeating Fist any elemental counts as a nerf (especially earth elemental, which is easily blocked by float) because you're saying that there exists a way to completely block the damage when the whole point of the attack was to guarantee physical damage at close range.

This is also intentional.  Powerful unblockable attacks are unfair unless they have a serious drawback.  For example, Flare has a CT of 7 and an MP cost of 40; guns have weak damage.  Making Repeating Fist earth element gives players a way to defend themselves. 

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
Freezing Fist: 3 Range, 0 AoE, 3 Vert, 0 CT, 10 MP, Dmg_B(PA*9), Ice Element, 250 JP--NOTE: This formula is the Squire formula for bullrush and both should take Martial Arts.

This isn't bad in itself, but The Damned won't be happy to see a Wind elemental attack bite the dust.  This also breaks the synergy Punch Art would have with Chirijiraden (and Genji Helm if it goes through).

Similarly, I won't be happy to see a Water elemental attack bite the dust, as this element is underrepresented at the moment (even among weapons, and even after the introduction of Black Magick Water).[/list]

Quote from: Dokurider on July 30, 2013, 12:11:57 pm
Heal on hit, adding statuses? I forsee a problem here. To the best of my knowledge, heal on hit cannot add status.

Ah, is that so?  I have no idea.

Quote from: Dokurider on July 30, 2013, 03:05:19 amIn fact, by removing it's natural predator, Always: Transparent, they'll be even stronger than ever, pissing everyone off even more.

We aren't removing Hidden Knife to the best of my knowledge.  Even if we did, there's Concentrate to fill its role.

Quote from: Dokurider on July 30, 2013, 03:05:19 am
I propose removing +1 Move (and it's 15% W-Ev, probably down to 5%) not just from Katar, but from all knives. I suggest this because to me, the +1 Move aspect of Knives just seems like a bad attempt to make Knives viable, because it does more harm than good. Not all units appreciate +1 Move. Units that were supposed to stay back are now in the front, stabbing Kninjas (Kagesougi Ninjas = Kninjas) with their derpy Platina Knives. This can be built around, but the point is, +1 Move takes what would otherwise be a excellent weapon and sours it for many users and team strategies, most of which are more defensive oriented. Meanwhile, +1 Move for 2H knives and certain 2S knives, power up already powerful builds. Knives no longer need +1 Move anymore, it's just a old crutch now and they are perfectly viable on their own now. (Some of them could probably lose the 15% W-Ev, too)

What about strategies that want lots of Move?  That want to Bust a Move?  That want to Show Me Your Moves?  +1 Move is fine; if you're going for a low-mobility strategy, then equip any other weapon type.  If we remove the Movement bonus, weapon variation will suffer.

The problem is knives' ridiculous damage with Two Hands.  They're supposed to make units slippery and mobile, not turn them into wrecking machines.  That's why I'd like to nerf Orichalcum's and Katar's WP.

Quote from: Dokurider on July 30, 2013, 03:05:19 am
If this Reflect Gun was non-elemental, it would screw Mages over harder than Coral Sword ever would have, because at least the defense option would have been there, at a range no less.

The reflect gun would heal on hit.  The only mages it will ever screw over is the user's own.

Double post, but oh well.  Here are a few tweaks in light of recent discussions.

Air Knife: 13 WP, 15 W-EV, +1 Move, Wind Elemental, No 2H
FDC raises a good point about Air Knife's worth as a Grand Cross weapon.  This will keep it semi-useful for Grand Cross.

Coral Sword: 8 WP, 10 W-EV, Water Elemental, Strengthen: Water, 25% Cast: Suiton
The 33% proc rate will be pretty broken with Flash Hat.  Proc rate and WP have been adjusted to fix this.

Save the Queen: 15 WP, 0 W-EV, Always: Protect
Ragnarok: 15 WP, 0 W-EV, Always: Protect
These swords can be paired with perfumes to make super-tanky Paladins.  (e.g. A Paladin with one of these swords and a complementary perfume, Unyielding, and 40 Brave/Faith will cut all damage by roughly two-thirds.)   To balance this, such setups will have no evasion whatsoever.

Slasher: 12 WP, 20 W-EV, Yes 2S
25 W-EV is a little too high for a 12 WP weapon that is dual-wieldable.  At 25 W-EV, dual-wielded slashers with mantles can reach 90% P-EV from the front.

Silver Bow: 13 WP, 10 W-EV, 40% Cast: Holy
This will make Silver Bow more useful on mages.  It will also make Silver Bow the most powerful bow if Archers are willing to risk having 70 brave and faith.

Speed +1: 500 JP
400 JP is honestly too cheap for what will be an amazing movement ability on a skill set with Abandon and Two Swords, two other great RSMs.

Frog: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 4 CT, 18 MP, Hit_F(MA+60), Add: Frog, 150 JP
I realise that Faith will be an easier status to make use of now that spellguns are being nerfed.  Accordingly, Faith-charged Frog spells will become a thing.  So, instead of boosting the Y value to make this skill more usable, let's lower CT.