We gotta do something about FFTPatcher.
*Linux compatibility
*Preview maps when ENTD editing
-> It doesn't have to be 3D. It must display unmovable tiles, water tiles, and stacked (two vertical) tiles.
*Add HP and MP editing to shields
*Integrate stuff found only in spreadsheets.
*We need a list of bugs and fixed bugs for the newer versions.
Should we advertise on RHDN and Zophar for a C# and Visual Basic coder?
Totally agree on the ENTD thing. That'd make life so much easier! It'd be very nice if we implemented ALMA into the Patcher as well.
FFPatcher updated?
Awesome, FFPatcher might become the complete tool to hack FFT...
But please, for the love of god don't use WOTL names
Would it help if I made a WotL -> Vanilla name translation guide? >_>
I really fucking hate the WOTL names in the newest version of FFTPatcher. They're there even when you're editing the PS1 version.
I'm honestly at the point where I'd much prefer to tell FFTPatcher to go suck some raunchy balls and have a Spreadsheet instead.
Honestly though, FFTPatcher doesn't need an update right now. We need proper editors for ATTACK.OUT, TEST.EVT, etc. for people who want to edit events and other such things. FFTPatcher combined with my spreadsheets and other tools such as ALMA still does its job, focus should be in the places we're actually incredibly weak or unable to do things in, not places where we can do basically everything but are mildly annoyed because the tool's a bit outdated and requires us to have a couple buddies for it on the side.
Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on June 27, 2011, 05:33:34 pm
I'm honestly at the point where I'd much prefer to tell FFTPatcher to go suck some raunchy balls and have a Spreadsheet instead.
Honestly though, FFTPatcher doesn't need an update right now. We need proper editors for ATTACK.OUT, TEST.EVT, etc. for people who want to edit events and other such things. FFTPatcher combined with my spreadsheets and other tools such as ALMA still does its job, focus should be in the places we're actually incredibly weak or unable to do things in, not places where we can do basically everything but are mildly annoyed because the tool's a bit outdated and requires us to have a couple buddies for it on the side.
Why not do both? I'm sure there's enough interest in adding various things to FFTPatcher (ALMA, perhaps RAD, raw-stats editor, etc.) that there would be plenty of people willing to help out with this. At the same time, I'm sure there are also plenty of people willing to work on editors for attack.out, test.evt, etc. To be honest, I think more people would be interested in expanding FFTPatcher than making new editors, because there are only so many people who actually want to edit events in the first place. A lot of patches that I see floating around here are mostly just modifying skills, jobs, etc. to make things more balanced and interesting, while still following the original plotline. I'm sure there are more people who are frustrated by having to supplement FFTPatcher with manual hacking and/or spreadsheets than people who are frustrated by not having proper event editors.
Because FFTPatcher is not hard to recreate in a spreadsheet form and it will be far more easy to manipulate data.
I'd go for an FFTPatcher spreadsheet, considering I currently can't do a fucking thing, as I'm a linuxfag.
Then maybe you shouldn't be a linuxfag :P
I'm too pooooooooor!
Keep it as an .exe, and make it work with linuxfags
I'd rather have a better event editor then an update for a program that... doesn't need one currently.
Quote from: Pride on June 27, 2011, 06:18:12 pm
I'd rather have a better event editor then an update for a program that... doesn't need one currently.
Event editor = Awesome
But IMHO, we should upgrade FFPatcher with RAD, ALMA, and other awesome things first
And, of course, fix the bugs
Xif's working on her event editor currently, I think.
But... Those spreadsheets already create a .xml for fftorgasm, I just don't understand the need for it when its already possible to edit all of this information effectively.
I would rather have a formula editor for the not so good at ASM hackers than an update for FFTPatcher.
My $0.02(AUS, hence it is worth more than your US $0.02!)
Quote from: MagiusRerecros on June 27, 2011, 05:43:33 pm
Why not do both?
Because there aren't enough people with the
skills to do everything. People being interested doesn't mean shit if there aren't people who are skilled enough to actually turn interest into anything more than a floating turd in the bowl. We don't have enough people with the skills to make things like FFTPatcher, hence how it's still in its current state, which is why resources should be properly allocated.
Quote from: MagiusRerecros on June 27, 2011, 05:43:33 pmA lot of patches that I see floating around here are mostly just modifying skills, jobs, etc. to make things more balanced and interesting, while still following the original plotline.
Mercenaries
Call of Power
FFT Remix (R.I.P.)
King of Ivalice (R.I.P.)
Parted Ways
Celdia's Complete Patch is soon going in this direction.
Embargo is probably going in this direction after a time.
Redesign will be doing things with this.
Etc.
Ignorance is bliss.
Quote from: MagiusRerecros on June 27, 2011, 05:43:33 pmI'm sure there are more people who are frustrated by having to supplement FFTPatcher with manual hacking and/or spreadsheets than people who are frustrated by not having proper event editors.
"I'm too lazy to open 3 spreadsheets please put it all in one program so I can keep being a lazy fuck and ignore all the people who completely lack the proper tools to do what they want because I'm lazy and don't care that I can already do almost anything I want."
Alternatively:
People
would make more elaborate patches if they
had the means to do so.
If changing the story was easy but editing the balance was almost impossible, people would be making story patches using a mostly unaltered Vanilla engine because
that's what they have the resources to do. Your entire point hinges on the crux of "Update this because this is what everyone does while ignoring the fact
this is the only thing they can do because it's the only thing that's currently supported adequately."
Quote from: Dome on June 27, 2011, 06:19:33 pm
Event editor = Awesome
But IMHO, we should upgrade FFPatcher with RAD, ALMA, and other awesome things first
And, of course, fix the bugs
*Gets his parrot on:
"I'm too lazy to open 3 spreadsheets please put it all in one program so I can keep being a lazy fuck and ignore all the people who completely lack the proper tools to do what they want because I'm lazy and don't care that I can already do almost anything I want."
The ONLY thing worth fixing with FFTPatcher currently is incompatibility with Linux users and other people who can't use it as a .exe, because incompatibility sucks for everyone. Everything else is just bitching because they need to open more than one program to natively do things that would have been beyond the scope of a bug-free FFTPatcher to begin with, at which point I seriously say shut the fuck up and let people who need it get some program and spreadsheet support.
Raven: DONTFUCKWITHME mode on
Are you on your period?
P.s: I already messed with a lot of programs to make 1.4, not only FFPatcher, and I don't NEED an all-in-one FFPatcher pack because I can't read tutorials/mess with programs/spreadsheets
I just think it would be easier and faster for everyone to have such a tool around, that's all
I'm not forcing anyone to work on it
No, I just go into DON'TFUCKWITHMEMODO when I see something that makes me facepalm RL.
It would be easier and faster. It would also be easier and faster to have working Event Editors and ATTACK.OUT Editors that were worth a damn, and the time save between a better FFTPatcher and even just ONE of those editors would be exponential in scale if you talked to ANYONE who has worked with Events and/or ATTACK.OUT.
FFTPatcher could be made more efficient if it were a spreadsheet, the GUI honestly makes it a lot slower to use.
QuoteNo, I just go into DON'TFUCKWITHMEMODO when I see something that makes me facepalm RL.
Still, there is no reason for being harsh with others / troll them just because they are not knowledgeable as you and other hackers
QuoteIt would be easier and faster. It would also be easier and faster to have working Event Editors and ATTACK.OUT Editors that were worth a damn, and the time save between a better FFTPatcher and even just ONE of those editors would be exponential in scale if you talked to ANYONE who has worked with Events and/or ATTACK.OUT.
This would have been a better post instead of the other one
QuoteFFTPatcher could be made more efficient if it were a spreadsheet, the GUI honestly makes it a lot slower to use
I dislike Spreadsheets, but I suppose that's just me
You guys do realize that the only people with the abilities to update FFTPatcher or make an ATTACK.OUT or Event Editor are also the people agreeing with RoR, right?
They have a say in what they do, not any of you. They will contribute what they've made to the community, but the community will not force them to contribute what it wants.
That being said, why don't you ask them nicely to make EASY changes to FFTP, instead of asking them to go through hell and back just to make sure you lazy ****s can be lazier?
For instance: non-interactive map with coordinates in ENTD, that's easy, and I'm sure one of them has time to do it.
But you should ask nicely, or doit yourself.
Who cares how it's updated as long as it's updated? If spreadsheet is easier to make, do it.
I'm going to agree with Raven, though. A better Event Editor > FFTPatcher Update in terms of need for this community. The only reason I'm not doing a story patch (other than my lack of creativity) is the event editing.
But it would be nice for a newer FFTPatcher. Especially one that has a built in map and replaces the names in Jobs unlocked in ENTD with the ones in the rest of Patcher. That would be lovely.
I really don't need FFTpatcher expect for basic changes.
I would like sprite sheets or tools of event editing, formula editing etc.
Quote from: MysticKnightFF5 on June 27, 2011, 07:20:08 pm
They have a say in what they do, not any of you. They will contribute what they've made to the community, but the community will not force them to contribute what it wants.
That being said, why don't you ask them nicely to make EASY changes to FFTP, instead of asking them to go through hell and back just to make sure you lazy ****s can be lazier?
For instance: non-interactive map with coordinates in ENTD, that's easy, and I'm sure one of them has time to do it.
But you should ask nicely, or doit yourself.
Nobody's asking anyone to go through hell and back. We're asking if there's the possibility of updating patcher with things that already exist. AFAIK, we'd just need to add some tabs to patcher, and create a simple interface not tremendously unlike what people have already done with spreadsheets. If people are willing to do this, great. If not, we'll get over it. Honestly, we're making a big deal out of nothing. Besides, it's not like we're demanding anything in the here-and-now. Would I like to see patcher expanded and updated? Certainly. Does it have to be immediate, or specifically in .exe format? Not at all. It's already been stated that it'd be relatively simple to turn Patcher into a spreadsheet, and then we could just add in the already-existing spreadsheets. I certainly have no problem with that. I also have no problem with seeing any patcher updates being put on hold until decent event editors are worked on.
Quote from: Dome on June 27, 2011, 07:15:49 pm
Still, there is no reason for being harsh with others / troll them just because they are not knowledgeable as you and other hackers
I am a harsh person. I am the Scrooge McDuck in this community of hand-holding hippie buddies. No, don't pass the grass, please, just puff puff it away from me.
Even "other hackers" such as FDC can point out they get the same harsh replies from me when they're relevant. I don't sugar-coat things for people's delicate flower petals because someone needs to be upfront instead of trying to keep their big shiny smile on the exterior then whispering behind closed doors when no one's looking.
I'm not saying that you must act like a gay Hippie, you are free to do whatever you want as long as you don't break FFH rules (like everyone else on this site)
But, I just want to point out that people may not listen to you if you go on "Rampage" mode for no apparent reason, even if you are telling the truth
P.s: Completely agree with what MagiusRerecros said
Everyone forget about easyvent 4? It is being worked on last I heard. Supposed to live up to its name like never before.
Stop fighting over how to "fix" FFTP. It's not terminally broken.
Quote
*Linux compatibility
Agreed. Either make FFTP Linux compatible or use spreadsheets (which are Linux compatible).
Quote
*Preview maps when ENTD editing
-> It doesn't have to be 3D. It must display unmovable tiles, water tiles, and stacked (two vertical) tiles.
I like this idea, but I do not want to be coding that feature. We have maps on ffhacktics.com (not the forums), so anyone who is hacking unit positioning should just refer to those. If you feel that doesn't let you see 3D things like stacked tiles, you can also open Ganesha while hacking.
Quote
*Add HP and MP editing to shields
*Integrate stuff found only in spreadsheets.
FFTP is a data table editor. ALMA is an ASM hack that adds more tables. I don't think we should mix the two, because ALMA may still have bugs (do you seriously want to update a executable every single time new bugs are discovered?), there may be people who don't want to use ALMA in their hack/have other means of doing the same thing, and those people shouldn't be forced to waste free-space simply to have FFTP patch their hack at all.
Quote
*We need a list of bugs and fixed bugs for the newer versions.
Agreed.
Quote
Should we advertise on RHDN and Zophar for a C# and Visual Basic coder?
Between Kivutar, despa, and me, I don't think we need more C# coders. We're all currently busy right now. We don't even need to finish the EVTCHR editor that melonhead left unfinished in .478 because the newest JP tool does that for us.
Quote
I really fucking hate the WOTL names in the newest version of FFTPatcher. They're there even when you're editing the PS1 version.
So do I, but you can fix that by editing Resources.zip.
Quote
Honestly though, FFTPatcher doesn't need an update right now. We need proper editors for ATTACK.OUT, TEST.EVT, etc. for people who want to edit events and other such things.
Probably, though I'd add in world path editing (i.e. the lines connecting red to blue to green dots representing cities and terrain areas).
Quote
I would rather have a formula editor for the not so good at ASM hackers than an update for FFTPatcher.
That's my formula hack, FFM.
Quote from: formerdeathcorps on June 27, 2011, 09:14:44 pm
Probably, though I'd add in world path editing (i.e. the lines connecting red to blue to green dots representing cities and terrain areas).
Xifanie has a spreadsheet for editing that already, I think.
That is correct Raven, it isn't very difficult to use either.
Hi All,
I like the FFT patcher, after 10 min tutorial, you can really start using the program and making changes to the simple things in the game. I suppose that just shows the level of my ability. I love to get a better understanding of all ASM and Hex editing, but the constraints of a young family, time is a massive factor. Not only that, I would also to Event Edit. I have seen the results in all matter of different patches and it's just fantastic. I suppose at what i am trying to get at is, if you can make a program that is easy to use, then more people contributing. I am currently making my d&d lolpatch. Now if I could get a Drizzt sprite, it would be happy days!!
Argy
On an event editor:
Quote from: Raven, babbling like a madman...
People would make more elaborate patches if they had the means to do so.
Pretty much this. Editing events and generally making any changes to story in CCP is so far down on the list because I haven't felt up to learning the details behind event editing yet. Considering I'm nearly done with the patch at this point I'm either going to put a final version on hold while waiting for a better event editor or I'm going to start learning how to do that, too. Not something I'm looking forward to, honestly. Is this me being lazy? Maybe a bit, but I do have a life beyond this patch and this community (contrary to my time logged in here) and I don't really want to spend hours upon hours learning what is the equivalent of its own programming language just to make some tiny modifications to a story I really already like as-is.
As for FFTP, I'm not against rolling it and the other available spreadsheet hacks into one super-tool spreadsheet. Accessibility to people on multiple platforms alone would make it worth it. Also, I have lost count of the number of times I've gone to tab away from FFTP only to lose an entire field of data because for some reason when you hit Alt it likes to revert everything to defaults. That shit drives me batty but Alt+Tab is a hard habit to break after using PCs for the better part of 20 years.
If a spreadsheet DOES get made to replace FFTP though I would hope it is more detailed on how it works within the file itself, maybe using hover notes and the like to describe what each function does. I know I was a little baffled to find out that the Silence flag in FFTP meant it Ignores Silence when checked, not
is affected by Silence like I (reasonably, I thought) assumed. I had all my abilities backwards at one point because of that. Of course that was during a time when the Wiki was an atrocious mess due to spambots everywhere and I couldn't even check to see what the different functions of the program were.
Event Editor first. Honestly, as much as I admire people who can stick it out and finish a patch like CCP, there is a hard cap on how much interest a patch like that is going to generate in this here post-1.3 world. A new story set in the FFT world is something that might grab more attention.
Has anyone yet mentioned the fact that we have a freaking amazing map editor that essentially goes unused?
I don't have much to say on the FFTPatcher versus Spreadsheet thing. If you don't have anyone willing to work on improving FFTP, it is kind of a null point. However, FFTPatcher is the most used tool and is our major source of productive products because it is easy to use and learn and self contained. Frankly I'm happy we have people developing any hacking tools at this point.
Event Editor: So the problem here is that the lack of a user friendly event editor isn't what is really holding people back. Event editing is hard and is essentially reverse engineering a rather confusing and arbitrary programming language. Having it look pretty and more efficient doesn't change the fact that you need to know what you are doing. Xif's old event decompiler and compiler works great for this. It works fine, the reality is that programming completely custom events is just plain hard and time consuming.
The underlining problem with every comment I have made so far is that people are afraid to take the time to learn this stuff. Some of this stuff is hard, but most of us can probably learn it, and we can definitely learn to use Spreadsheets. How about finding ways to get people to make it past those barriers so that they are using the tools we already have, instead of talking about what we wish we had.
They aren't trying to help lazy fucks who won't learn the language, they're trying to help THEMSELVES. Because it's THEIR choice on what they with THEIR time, and in case you didn't notice, you're asking them to do something for you instead. Don't discount the need for an event editor, it's outrageously time consuming and headache-inducing, it's out of date, obsolete. The FFTP is far ahead, so it should naturally be put second.
Next, why don't you get off your lazy ass, learn how to edit FFTP yourself, AND DO IT YOURSELF?
I'd talk about an anecdote that has to do with a pot and a kettle, but I'm pretty sure that's entirely unnecessary at this point.
Thing is, this discussion feels worthless because we all know almost nothing will come of it.
Quote from: MysticKnightFF5 on July 06, 2011, 12:15:15 pm
They aren't trying to help lazy fucks who won't learn the language, they're trying to help THEMSELVES. Because it's THEIR choice on what they with THEIR time, and in case you didn't notice, you're asking them to do something for you instead. Don't discount the need for an event editor, it's outrageously time consuming and headache-inducing, it's out of date, obsolete. The FFTP is far ahead, so it should naturally be put second.
Next, why don't you get off your lazy ass, learn how to edit FFTP yourself, AND DO IT YOURSELF?
Is this even direct towards me? It seems like there was some miscommunication. By "Frankly I'm happy we have people developing any hacking tools at this point." I was referring to the sprite sheet editors and everything else. I didn't make any comment about wanting FFTP updated, only that I can understand why it is used the most.
All my comments were geared towards the community as a whole, not specific members.
Quote from: Cheetah on July 06, 2011, 02:59:08 amHas anyone yet mentioned the fact that we have a freaking amazing map editor that essentially goes unused?
No, but that kinda sucks. Main reason I've personally not used it yet is a lack of need. I know I'll be using it in the future, though.
Quote from: Cheetah on July 06, 2011, 02:59:08 amEvent Editor: So the problem here is that the lack of a user friendly event editor isn't what is really holding people back. Event editing is hard and is essentially reverse engineering a rather confusing and arbitrary programming language. Having it look pretty and more efficient doesn't change the fact that you need to know what you are doing. Xif's old event decompiler and compiler works great for this. It works fine, the reality is that programming completely custom events is just plain hard and time consuming.
Except as someone who works with events, that IS the problem. Even a somewhat handholdy tool like EasyVent 3 helps make Event Editing far easier to learn. (Hell, I'm helping
Eternal learn to edit events, and that's a spectacle of incompetence waiting to happen, yet is going rather well.) Having one that makes things easier and more intuitive for the user actually
does make editing events far easier to learn than "welp, here's some Notepads, have fun." Just the fact something as primitive as EasyVent 3 is able to lower the bar should be proof enough of this. In fact, Xifanie
is working on a better and more intuitive event editor as we speak - so it's not "stop wishing we had better tools", it's "get people to stop pulling people off the projects we need done because they don't want to open more than a single .exe."
Same deal with other people who would be on the coding end of this - most of them such as formerdeathcorps have far more essential and productive projects they're working on than just taking FFTPatcher and adding in some functionality someone else (me) already made very easy-to-understand tools to cover the lack of and trying to add WIP ASM hacks that have no place in FFTPatcher anyway into it. It's again not a matter of "I wish we had this", it's a matter of "I know we have people working on all these other far more important things, and I don't think we should make them divert their attention from their important and progressive projects to bust their ass and placate people so they can do what they already have the ability to do."
Again, you're assuming that people are demanding that others stop what they're doing right now and get this done. This isn't "omg we need this right now, so if you don't stop your current projects and update this now we're going to kill your family", this is "hey, if someone has some free time and knows how to do this, it'd be really cool if you'd be willing to get this done."
Quote from: MagiusRerecros on July 06, 2011, 04:41:11 pm
Again, you're assuming that people are demanding that others stop what they're doing right now and get this done. This isn't "omg we need this right now, so if you don't stop your current projects and update this now we're going to kill your family", this is "hey, if someone has some free time and knows how to do this, it'd be really cool if you'd be willing to get this done."
Sure, but it sounds like everyone with the knowhow is already working on something else (its relative importance notwithstanding, as its a matter of opinion) and anyone who
does have the time doesnt know how. Like Cheetah said, its a moot point.
And if that's the case, that's the case. It just annoys me that so many people seem to be making this out to be some kind of demand that has to be done right here and now.
Quote from: MagiusRerecros on July 06, 2011, 11:57:30 pm
And if that's the case, that's the case. It just annoys me that so many people seem to be making this out to be some kind of demand that has to be done right here and now.
I make it out that way because some of the people who have the skill to actually do these things will see it that way, and aren't the best at prioritizing. (I can think of 3 people who fit this off the top of my head.) If someone doesn't point out they should focus on more useful things first, they won't, and we'll be left even
longer without progress. And I'm tired of the stagnation on our tools and our overall progress. Really quite sick of it, to be frank. My Spreadsheet Shoppe is the result of the hate I'd begun harboring for the stagnation in tools this site's been under, since when you want something done right, sometimes you just gotta do it yourself.
Well, I suppose that's a fair point. I guess maybe we should make an effort to point out that certain things that we may want, like a more encompassing patcher, are not as useful as other things that should take priority. Perhaps some of us who have been advocating this particular project should have been more understanding of that particular point of view, and I apologize for that. Projects that have already been started, such as various asm hacks (for example, fdc's formula hack; I'm very much looking forward to seeing that completed), or projects that will see a greater amount of use (a more user-friendly, comprehensive event editor, or perhaps a nice map editor or something) should see a greater emphasis then something like this. I mean, again, seeing patcher updated to a spreadsheet, and expanded to include recent hacks would be handy, but it's not essential. New things should be the main focus point, this is more of a side-project for someone to work on if they get frustrated with a current project or they're particularly bored.
Before I weigh in... have the Linux people tried running any of the .NET apps like FFTPatcher in wine? It might get around the problem. I do have a Linux setup I could test some of this on, but a lot of it is just seeing what other people have done...
If not, .NET might be pigeonholing us a bit into Windows. Can't say I agree about spreadsheets being more useful than apps.
From what I've used of the various spreadsheets, they're incredibly easy to use. The thing the Patcher really has over them is instant patching, as opposed to needing to use orgASM, as well as a slightly more user-friendly GUI. But really, that takes a minute tops and even without the Patcher's GUI, the spreadsheets are still incredibly easy to understand.
Quote from: Glain on July 07, 2011, 09:30:21 am
Before I weigh in... have the Linux people tried running any of the .NET apps like FFTPatcher in wine? It might get around the problem. I do have a Linux setup I could test some of this on, but a lot of it is just seeing what other people have done...
If not, .NET might be pigeonholing us a bit into Windows. Can't say I agree about spreadsheets being more useful than apps.
FFTPatcher might be a little slow in Wine, but if you could tell me exactly what I DLLs I need to copy to my Wine folder, that would be cool.
Quote from: Cheetah on July 06, 2011, 02:59:08 am
Has anyone yet mentioned the fact that we have a freaking amazing map editor that essentially goes unused?
Where is this map editor that Cheetor speaks of? I've been cruising through all the hacking posts with the word "map" in them courtesy of the search function, and the only ones that come close are some SentinelBlade topics with broken links. Can anyone help me locate this?
Look for Ganesha by gotmuu, or just check out this. (http://gomtuu.org/fft/Ganesha/)
Kuraudo!!!!!!!!
:)