Final Fantasy Hacktics

Saw this in my subscriptions and those bitches just got owned.

Those kinds of protesters are ignorant scum.

You have to save the babies so you can deny them education and health care, use them for child labor, and molest them.  Fundamentalist Christianity, hard at work.

Wow, I would feel so bad if I were one of those xtians.

Quote from: "Pickle Girl Fanboy"You have to save the babies so you can deny them education and health care, use them for child labor, and molest them.  Fundamentalist Christianity, hard at work.

lol!

There is a catholic church right down the street from where I live, and I have to watch these kinds of protests ALL THE TIME as I travel to and from my house (they even have a van that drives around uptown with pictures of aborted fetuses), it is disgusting.

Very clear example of people going about what they believe in the wrong way.

If you claim it causes more suicides in the mother, then be there to help them. Waving around pictures of dead babies isn't going to change anything.

Yelling at people doesn't help either. If you're going to oppose something, at least do it with respect. Seriously.

Quote from: "Zaen"Yelling at people doesn't help either. If you're going to oppose something, at least do it with respect. Seriously.

Unless you are trolling....

Quote from: "Shade"

Quote from: "Zaen"Yelling at people doesn't help either. If you're going to oppose something, at least do it with respect. Seriously.

Unless you are trolling....

trolling irl is called being an asshole, and usually results in social isolation and/or physical harm.  Thats why its done anonymously, over the internet.  

Man, Skip, if I had such an opportunity and were gay, I would kiss man to man in front of the xtians; loool.

I am against abortions unless it was a rape. Seriously, they need to educate people better in prevention rather than this nonsense. Also because in reality, the would be mothers are killing their babies, which is just sickening if you think about it. What the hell is wrong with society?! People used to be proud of their children, especially before the 20th century. In most religions, people believe that children were a gift from God, even if you don't believe that, it still has nothing to do with the fact that these young mothers are killing unborn babies. Still, standing in front of an abortion clinic and screaming is just retarded. They plain and simple need to educate people better in prevention, its that simple.

My philosophy: Do whatever the fuck you want as long as it doesn't affect me. I hate protesters in general, they're loud and obnoxious. I've had protesters on MY PROPERY yelling about abortion, just sitting in my yard screaming their heads off at people. Needless to say, I was PISSED. As for the video, I agree with the news guy, the dad was very calm in that situation.

QuoteI hate protesters in general, they're loud and obnoxious.

That's the point, as most people are apathetic sheep.

Pro-lifers are idiots.  They don't understand that someone can be Pro-Choice and would never have an abortion.  I have one kid, and a second one on the way, we can barely afford it, but both my wife and I would never choose to have an abortion unless she was in danger, or if the child had serious birth defects.  We are both still Pro-Choice, and would never fault someone who chose differently.  That is what it means to choose.
Oh, and if my second child were to have the same birth defect as the fetus mentioned in the video, I would do a lot more than what that guy did.  Stupid, ignorant b****es.

agree with DaveSW

If someone wants to ban abortion, except in specific circumstances - like those mentioned above - then that's fine by me, but only if you take care of these kids after they are born.  That means health care, education, a sane adoption policy, abuse detection and intervention, and a host of other things.

Also, how exactly does outlawing what someone does to themselves and their body (or their unborn child, if you prefer that) not constitute gov't interfering in private matters, which is such a hot topic this election cycle?

If so many Christians hate abortion, why don't more of them adopt?

QuoteIf so many Christians hate abortion, why don't more of them adopt?

Or preach tolerance or do charity work or live more aesthetically or any other laundry list of practices that should be associated with the religion?  

I'd think the answer is pretty obvious

The answer is simple: cause they don't read their own freaking bible.  I read the damn thing, and it was made perfectly clear to me about 300 pages in that YHWH is the main antagonist of the story.  Funny, the only time the bible mentions abortion, it advocates it to the point of saying that all illegitimate children need to be aborted, by taking some kind of magic drink, no less.  The easiest way to make someone an Atheist/Agnostic is have them actually read the bible, and not just pick out specific passages.

A recent study showed that Atheists and Agnostics knew more about any given religion then the people who actually follow that religion.  My response: "Well, no sh*t!"

I wish Norse mythology had its own bible, Odin is a way cooler version of Jesus.

they dont strictly have a bible, but as far as lore/practice goes i know a fairly large chunk of it. was there anything in particular you wanted info on?

No, I know most of it already.  I just meant that if there was a Norse Bible, I could go door to door, trying to get people to worship Odin.

Only if the first thing you say to people is, "Welcome to Valhalla!"

I think if I did go door to door hocking religion, I would also try to sell them Kool-Aid at the same time.  
Oh, what the hell would you call someone who worships Odin, Thor and the like?  Oh, and at what point in the mythology should the present time be considered?  In other words, has Odin already been eaten by Fenrir?  Or is that the Norse equivalent to the rapture?
Oh, and how should I spin it so that the Norse Bible wouldn't condone bestiality? Should i just cut out the whole Loki turning into a mare and birthing Slepnir story?  
Also, should Odin and Loki be treated as two seperate St. Ajoras, or should they be considered a mono-polytheistic hybrid, just like YHWH, Jesus, and "The Holy Ghost" are supposed to be the same and different simultaneously?

I am thinking that I actually want to do this.  Find every Norse story and throw them all together in one book.  Translate it poorly, and try to see if anyone will drink this especially awesome flavor of Kool-Aid.

Someone sounds bitter :P


Show me on this doll where the kool-aid touched you.

Back when I was still a Christian, I was kicked out of my church, and permanently ostracized from my then friends, because I asked too many questions, which led to many teens in my bible study class quitting the church after they realized it was all bs.  The funny part, I just wanted to know more about my then religion.  The Kool-aid I drank was some pretty serious sh*t.  If you ever saw Jesus Camp, that is the kind of nut-job I used to be.

Then I started to actually read the bible.  Then I read a different version. Then I did some research on it and found out how crappy of a translation it is.  I thought Dycedarg's older brother was about as bad as it could get, I was wrong.  I have yet to meet a non-mormon that has actually read their version of the bible completely.  

As for the mormons, to quote the guy that kept bugging me this summer: "If you can bring yourself to believe that God is his own son, and that had his own sacrificed so that we can enter Heaven, then believing that Jesus came to America after he died is not much of a stretch."  I don't think that he realized that just provided a great argument for why people get brainwashed so easily.

If you can bring yourself to believe that body-thetans are the source of all negative emotions, then believing Xenu put the frozen corpses of space monsters in our volcanoes whose souls became these body-thetans is not much of a stretch.

Yeah, what can I say?  I am not to fond of the Kool-Aid, it left a nasty aftertaste that I will never be able to wash out.

Sorry to hear that man. I was raised by parents/ school system that taught me ALL the religions and to think for myself. Obviously Im now an atheist

When I see stories like yours, it makes me feel lucky yet very spoiled

I am social pariah here in Texass, as my wife and I are the only 2 Atheists we know.  The upside though, telling some annoying stranger that I'm an Atheist is the easiest way to get them to got away, unless they are a cop, in which case I just get arrested.  I used to have "Blasphemy is a victimless crime" on the bumper of my car.  That didn't go over to well with local PD.  (I still can't get my car to run.)  

The worst part though, I am a terrible liar, and at any job I work at, people find out pretty quick that I am not a mindless sheep like them, which leads to me being fired almost immediately.  

Idiots think that just because I won't drink any brand of Kool-Aid, (except of course for actual Kool-Aid), that it somehow means I am completely amoral, and will rape, murder, and jaywalk at any opportunity.  The truth, of course, is that besides the one time I picked a fight with a SWAT team, I have never done anything immoral or unethical, I never even cheated on any tests back in school, hell, I never even grief other players on any online game.

You guys should move

No money, otherwise I would go back to Seattle in a heartbeat.

Ha, I didn't expect a real answer. Yeah, that bitterness is pretty justified.


Carry on.

This is a shining example of why any belief in magic/voodoo/gods/what-have-you is very bad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82EiZt6CEpQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82EiZt6CEpQ)

Imagine if that kind of thinking was allowed in the US:

Suspect: "I didn't kill the heathen, Satan did!"
Cop: "Do you have any proof of this?"
Suspect: "Can you prove I'm lying?"
Cop: "You are free to go."

Negative proof is the major logic fail that all religions prescribe to.  Rationalwiki should be required reading in highschool.

Quote from: "DaveSW"Suspect: "I didn't kill the heathen, Satan did!"
Cop: "Do you have any proof of this?"
Suspect: "Can you prove I'm lying?"
Cop: "You are free to go."

Negative proof is the major logic fail that all religions prescribe to.  Rationalwiki should be required reading in highschool.

I can't tell you how good it is to see other rational people who see things for what they are exist out there

props to you DaveSW

QuoteTexass

Howdy!  

Though I guess you're in a more rural area, huh?

Quote from: "DaveSW"No money, otherwise I would go back to Seattle in a heartbeat.

An atheist from Seattle that moved to Texas, do I know you? Bummer man it would have been cool to have a like minded Seattlite. Even if it is expensive as shit to live here.

Animal cruelty!?
I won't allow that!!!

The thing I hate most is that when reality is dick-slapping these idiots in the face, they just assume the mushroom print on their cheeks came from Satan.  Sorry but Satan did not prove the existence of evolution, Richard Lenski did. Satan does not make people gay, Satan does not force people to have abortions, Satan doesn't f*cking exist.

Oh, wait, the other thing I hate the most, is that when anything 'good' happens, these idiots assume angels did it.  No wonder these people really think the world has gone to sh*t when they credit angels for all the good things in life, and not people.
Me: "Oh wow, mom! That old man just bought us all our food!"
Mom: "Yes, well he must've been an angel, after all, I've never seen him again."

At the time, I believed her... *Sigh*

Damn... I really could go on and on about how EVERYTHING has a logical explanation to it.  But this topic jumped the shark as soon as I started posting on it, so I guess it is time to let it die.

That said, I really like the community here, it seems like most of the major people here really smart, passionate people who aren't just a bunch of f*cking annoying fanboys who hate everything that isn't FFT.  (FFT is my second favorite game of all time, the first being Super Metroid, but thinking either game is 'perfect' is just absurd).

Oh, and I've been watching the Chronicles of Kanbarif... if that Reis fanboy chemist was still around, would he be gushing over Balthier, and his ability to do 7992 damage in one turn? (He does swing 8 times if he is dual wielding, right?)

Ok, last pick is just plain awesome.

Oh, and Cheetah, what part of Seattle are you from? I'm from Shoreline, when it was still a part of Seattle.

Dave, do you not believe in her holiness?

All is the will of St. Ajora.

Farlem.

Sorry, but the first thing I do when I hack FFT is swap the names of Truth and Un-Truth.  Like Worker 8, I come with innate Atheist status.  I also think it is kinda awesome that the church would hate me even more than Ramza, as apostates are considered to be even worse than heretics.

Dave, my in game avatar: "So, your telling me that that giant rock will only crush me to pieces if I believe in it, but this Elixir will heal me regardless?"
Generic Time Mage: "But if you don't submit to the will of God, I won't be able to make you move fast!"
Dave: *pulls out Excalibur* "You were saying?"

Really, in the FFT world, Atheists only need to fear people with a stockpile of Katanas.

Hell, Atheists ARE the people with a huge stockpile of Katanas.

What is it about FFT that it attracts so many atheists... Not saying it is a bad thing or good, but seriously so many people here are atheist. It brings me hope that more and more people will grow a damn brain and give the church what it deserves, a middle finger in the face.

Quote from: "DaveSW"Ok, last pick is just plain awesome.

Oh, and Cheetah, what part of Seattle are you from? I'm from Shoreline, when it was still a part of Seattle.

I use to live up in the Lake City area, but now I'm up on Capitol Hill. It isn't exactly my scene but it is convenient.

We aren't FFT fanboys, we're Vagrant Story fanboys.

And goddamn do I feel for you.  My mom worships the TV preachers, and whenever she's feeling down - all the time - she sends them money.  So I never had a Xmas or birthday or any of that shit, because Heyzeus and Pastor Pedobear needed the money more than I did.

Never celebrated Halloween either.  Dad thought it was satanic, because the voices in his head and the mail-order VHS preachers he favors say so.  He listens to this radio preacher from Texas, Texe Marrs I think, and all night long I have to listen to this crazy fuck going on about child-molesting, money-grubbing Jews.  The funny part about this is that my dad would walk around naked in front my sister and me when we were little, and he'd get pissed off whenever we stared at him like the insane pedobear he is.

I don't know how this is, and I can't prove it, but somehow my family crippled me.  I can't function in normal society.  I can't hold a job, I can't stand being near people, I can barely talk to anyone.  It's like they want to keep me near them, so they can feed off me, so they can take everything that's good in me - my sanity, my imagination, my intuition - and force their craziness on me.

Anything's better than this.  If I was raised by wolves, I would be better off today.  But anyways, enough of my nightmarish childhood.  DaveSW, were you in Warren Jeff's bunch of crazies, or were you the mainstream nutjob Mermens?

Man, it pains me to read that.

Any way you can form a plan to get out of that situation?

You're going to need to hold down a job to make it out IMO

Also, how old are you? Is there some legal resource you can take? I don't know much about how the law works with regards to this, but clearly you're old enough to know that something is affecting you, negatively

I'm old enough to vote, and that's all I'm gonna say in that regard.

I'm pretty sure my mom has skin cancer, and maybe sinus, esophogeal, and lung cancer.  There's a good chance Pedodad has lung or esophogeal cancer too.  I'm just going to wait for either an opportunity, or for them to die.  If they die, I can sell a bunch of their crap - and it is mostly crap, I doubt I'll get more than 1,500 dollars for all of it - and that'll last me for about six months if I go to ground.

I'm not worried.  All I have to do is wait while they kill themselves with their cigarettes.  Too bad they don't have the balls to do it fast.

And you don't have to feel sorry for me.  Pain is the great teacher, and I've learned a lot in my time.

Man, I know that you aren't making this shit up because it sounds so random when you look at it. I'm sorry for ya PGF. My advice (if its that bad) get the hell outta there asap, try to hold a normal job in society at least to get your own place. Tbh, I loled when you called your pop a Pedobear (sorry, I know that this is serious). Hopefully one day you can look back at it all and laugh...sorry dude...

Wow, I have the opposite problem... My parents are loaded, my dad makes over 1 million every year, yet I am cut off completely, to the point where I get nothing when they die.  
Oh, they blamed me for their divorce, even though they were both cheating on each other with random men.  Yeah...

The worst part about living in a place that consists of 99% fundie loons, is that I can say, without any sort of arrogance, that I am the smartest person I have ever met in the past 10 years.  I am smart, but not super-genius level, or even close, so the fact that I am clearly smarter than everyone else I know is just sad.

Besides my wife, I have 0 friends.  
Oh well, that is what videogames are for.

Thank you all for reminding me how lucky I am to have been born in the Northeastern part of the US, to parents who taught me from a young age to question everything.  Good luck to the both of you, and don't let the assholes get you down.

Quote from: "Jon"(sorry, I know that this is serious)

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=ba ... =434&uss=1 (http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=barney+and+friends+rule+34&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1024&bih=434&uss=1)
^How's this for serious?

Quote from: "DaveSW"Wow, I have the opposite problem... My parents are loaded, my dad makes over 1 million every year, yet I am cut off completely, to the point where I get nothing when they die.

Were you in Warren Jeffs' sect?

Quote from: "DaveSW"Oh, they blamed me for their divorce, even though they were both cheating on each other with random men.  Yeah...

Both?

Quote from: "DaveSW"The worst part about living in a place that consists of 99% fundie loons, is that I can say, without any sort of arrogance, that I am the smartest person I have ever met in the past 10 years.  I am smart, but not super-genius level, or even close, so the fact that I am clearly smarter than everyone else I know is just sad.

Where are you?  And the clearest indication of intelligence is the ability to hide your intelligence.  Why not use it to rip off some Christfags?

Quote from: "DaveSW"Besides my wife, I have 0 friends.  
Oh well, that is what videogames are for.

Uh, hello, that's what teh interwebz is for.  For you and all your l33t h4xx0r buddies.

remind me to turn safesearch back on before I click on a Google image search link

No, not even Mormon, I was forced to be southern Baptist.  My dad is loaded because he is a big shot at Verizon Wireless.
Yes, I meant both when I said random MEN.  Yet they blamed me for them getting divorced. Hmm...

I live in North Richland Hills, TX.  Everyone is some kind of fundie loon. Either that or someone who is in denial about their altar-boy son being ass raped.

In high school, we had exactly one Muslim family.  The daughter didn't even where a head scarf, yet was harassed for it.   They stayed in town for about 3 months.  The intolerance here is extreme, yet typical of any town in the south.

I just with The God Delusion was handed out on street corners instead of the Bible.  The world would be a better place.

I live in Idabel Oklahoma.  We get a lot of drug dealers coming up here from Dallas, trying to horn in on the Chocktaw and the KKK.

Uruguay has one of the highest populations of atheists in the western hemisphere...

How big was your HS, in students?

what is amazing is the ignorance in this thread

Quote from: "GeneralStrife"what is amazing is the ignorance in this thread

???

people are talking about their personal life experiences

I don't see any ignorance here

i wasnt necessarily talking about anyone's experiences but I ain't startin a debate

I guess I agree with GS on this as well...

Quote from: "Jon"I guess I agree with GS on this as well...

How do you agree with something that vague?  I'm not even sure what he's trying to say.  What are you agreeing with?  That there is ignorance of some sort being displayed by unspecified people?  Or that you don't want to start a debate?

I don't understand!

(I suppose that could be a display of ignorance....)

My guess is that GS is suggesting that Atheist = ignorant.  Truth of the matter is that anyone that believes in a higher power is some kind of a fucking moron.  I cannot trust anyone who is willing to believe that magic (or god's will) is responsible for any of the natural occurring phenomena in the world.  Everything can be explained, EVERYTHING.

Fundies are scum, plain and simple, and dealing with them is a chore.  I wish they would all just fuck off and die.

Oh, and my high school had 3000 students.  Keller High School, where the VP was proud to proclaim that the school was over 99% white.  There were exactly 4 black kids, and all them were strait A students that dressed preppy, yet were treated like gang-bangers.  I hate Texas, I really wish it would secede so the US can nuke it.

You're pretty violent, Dave.

Your post is a perfect example

"Christians are horrible!"

But you wish they would fuck off and die and you would nuke them.

Point proven GG SIR

Christians aren't horrible, some of my best friends are christian. The people themselves aren't ALL bad, though a good portion are. The real villain is the religion itself. Nobody with a brain can actually say with a straight face that the world wouldn't be better without Christianity.

(http://ihasahotdog.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/loldogs-funny-dog-pictures-im-seriousthis-is-my-serious-face.jpg)

the world would be better off without christianity.

Quote from: "Kill_Bones"Nobody with a brain can actually say with a straight face that the world WOULDN'T be better without Christianity.

-_-

i was agreeing ^.^ i just wanted to show everyone my serious face

You really think without christianity there would be no war or anything?Without religion human life would be viewed as a commodity, don't start this with me. Look at the jews and muslims! Iran X Israel

I was refering to the Dark Ages GS. We would be years more advanced if the church didn't burn people for trying to make scientific advancements that went against "TEH LAWS OF OUR MAGICAL SKY WIZARD!" Oh, and sorry VLord, got a bit confused X.X

oh of course the dark ages were horrible

Christianity was nice when it was NEW, and, it did help the world for a while. were it more "recent" i would be totally fine with, but christianity has not stayed recent with the times, the rest of the world is changing, and the church IS moving forward("oh hey evolution is a thing now") which is nice, but they arent doing it fast enough,  and it cant continue being how it is now if it wishes to continue existing on the scale it does. Its not purely the church itself either, its also its "supporters". having 10million strong who will active beat/harass/lynch anyone who isnt a white,  uptight, church going, heterosexual, geebus praising, cross wearer. Not all christians are like this, obviously. but there are places in the south that i honestly refuse to go near out of the general fear of what may happen.  I dont actively hate christianity, i just think it needs to evolve the same as government, if they arent giving the people what they want, then someone else needs to take over.

The problem is not that all christians are automatically bad, no one here has stated that.

The problem is that the type of mentality that believes in claims such as religious ones (g0d exists, g0d cares about who you have sex with, g0d has a pre-determined plan for you, g0d is all-powerful even though the devil still comes in every now and then and corrupts his creations, this making his omni-potence kinda questionable).

The type of mentality that believes claims like that without any sort of evidence (and there is absolutely ZERO demonstrable evidence for any religious claim) tends to act in completely irrational ways when they choose to be destructive. Using this way of thinking to validate invisible things such as religions and deities, mentalities like these find it easier to justify irrationality in areas that really do impact society (abortion, gay marriage, racism, xenophobia, etc etc), where the effect isn't simply confined to what the person does behind closed doors.

The type of mentality that rejects the reality in front of them only to uphold their own self-wrought religious delusion is a dangerous mentality. And that is what the posters in this thread are getting at.

---Slightly off topic:

This whole morality (or value of human life, as you're putting it) requires religion argument has been proven wrong again and again. IMO it looks like you're another religious type that is going to end up rage-quitting from FFH from the severe levels of ownage that you're going to receive if you press the issue.

QuoteYou really think without christianity there would be no war or anything?Without religion human life would be viewed as a commodity, don't start this with me. Look at the jews and muslims! Iran X Israel

??? You wanna bring up the jews and the Holocaust? OK.


Have fun explaining why Hitler was a catholic and had the blessing of the cardinal when he escaped assassination and mentions his christian g0d all over Mein Kampf.

If you're going to say that religion is responsible for our value of human life, please take responsibility for the destruction of human life it's also caused. (Crusades, burnings, tons of other examples you can google yourself)

fuck catholics, also crusades = dark ages

Religion has a history of failing it's believers. If only the people of Tenochitlan were athiest (+ 100 points if you know what I'm talking about)

Quote from: "Voldemort"IMO it looks like you're another religious type that is going to end up rage-quitting from FFH from the severe levels of ownage that you're going to receive if you press the issue.

>Implying I'm a religious nut.
 I'm not, I simply have my beliefs.

Quote from: "GeneralStrife"fuck catholics, also crusades = dark ages

I'll take a catholic over a protestant any day of the week <3

sola scripturists lack a major degree of understanding, by definition.

QuoteNobody with a brain can actually say with a straight face that the world wouldn't be better without Christianity.

Well, we wouldn't of had Ghandi or Martin Luther King Jr without religion. Whether the pros outweigh the cons when it comes to religion (and/or specifically Christianity) I can't say.

QuoteThe real villain is the religion itself.

I completely disagree with this, though. People use religion as an excuse. Racism, violence, hate, etc would exist without it. People would just use different excuses.

Quote from: "DaveSW"My guess is that GS is suggesting that Atheist = ignorant.  Truth of the matter is that anyone that believes in a higher power is some kind of a fucking moron.  I cannot trust anyone who is willing to believe that magic (or St. Ajora's will) is responsible for any of the natural occurring phenomena in the world.  Everything can be explained, EVERYTHING.

Fundies are scum, plain and simple, and dealing with them is a chore.  I wish they would all just fuck off and die.

Oh, and my high school had 3000 students.  Keller High School, where the VP was proud to proclaim that the school was over 99% white.  There were exactly 4 black kids, and all them were strait A students that dressed preppy, yet were treated like gang-bangers.  I hate Texas, I really wish it would secede so the US can nuke it.

The attitudes of Christians in your community has more to do with them being the dominant majority than with their religious beliefs.  Since Christianity is the pre-requisite for respectability in their community, they place greater importance on the appearance of Christianity, rather than doing Christian things.  Everyone tries to out-Christian each other, and the surest way to ensure your place at the top of the dog pile is to persecute outsiders, or, even better, create outsiders out of anyone who deviates from the norm and persecute them.

In Iran, Shia Muslims are the persecuting majority.  In Dallas, Texas, Fundamentalist Baptist Christians are the persecuting majority.

Now, nobody likes a bully, and everyone is wired to root for the underdog, no matter how much you disagree with them.  This creates a problem when you are a member of the persecuting majority, especially if you are the perceived authority of the majority.  You must give people a reason to justify their persecution of the minorities.  The most effective excuse is to make yourself, and your majority, out as victims of unjust persecution; and to spread fear, especially the fear that your majority is threatened by outsiders who wish to destroy you and everything you believe in.

DaveSW, by making statements such as:
"Fundies are scum, plain and simple, and dealing with them is a chore.  I wish they would all just fuck off and die."
And
"I hate Texas, I really wish it would secede so the US can nuke it."
You are doing exactly what the persecuting majority, and it's authorities, want you to do.  You give them an outsider, a scarecrow, something to whip the majority into a fervor of fear and hate.

Furthermore, we are all here for one reason, and only one reason: to hack FFT.  If your political beliefs - which I share, mostly - get in the way of this goal, then leave them at the door.

In another thread, I proposed that we develop an evolutionary religion, that we create a society where our culture serves us, not one where we exist to serve our culture.  To this end, I assert my right to steal any idea that works.  Here are three such ideas, two from Shia Islam and one from Catholicism, which may serve you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketman)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_o ... eservation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_of_mental_reservation)

Adapted to your beliefs, it goes something like this:

Long Version
"I am an atheist.  Atheists don't believe in god, so we don't believe in sins, though we do believe that certain acts are evil - things like rape, murder, and theft.  As such, we do not condone or endorse such acts.  However, atheists are not particularly popular.  We are scapegoated for other peoples problems and our lives, well-being, loved ones, and property are threatened by persecuting majorities."

"In nature, every living thing must steal from, murder, and deceive other organisms to survive.  We are living things, we have as much of a right to exist as any other organism, and so we are justified to do whatever we must to survive, even if we consider those things evil."

Short Version
"You are free to do what you must to survive and thrive in your environment."

Respect++ for PGF

Quote from: "Kaijyuu"Respect++ for PGF

Arch, you nearly made me lol at some of your crap. PGF is way more right. Btw, even if you don't believe in G0d, (this isn't aimed only at Arch now), but you sorta understand the idea/fact that G0d is omni-potent and omni-scient, then you should obviously understand that we (as humans) cannot understand or comprehend G0d, otherwise he wouldn't be G0d. So that one comment (the one Arch made about G0d and the devil) is just retarded. But listen, I agree with PGF, why the fuck are we arguing, huh? This is pointless, everyone knows that almost all Atheists are "die-hard" just for the hell of it, whereas most of the hard core Christians described above are die hard as well. No one will change, unless something personal happens, both ways I mean (i.e. Atheist sees a miracle, Christian becomes like Daves way of thinking Atheist, ect.)

So...

Respect ++ for PGF as well

and

Respect -- for Voldemort

My post wasn't meant to earn respect points from you or anyone else, Jon - I just threw out idle examples off the top of my head, my post wasn't meant to delve into the problems with religion, just touch over some of them to counter GS's dumb points about religion = morality

Also, If you use your head, there is some serious flaws with PGF's post, such as this:

Quote"You are free to do what you must to survive and thrive in your environment."

That would cause the same if not more problems than we have now. "Free to do whatever I must to thrive" =
"I can trample over anyone and everything without regards for consequences if it means I get to thrive". Which is, btw, what people do now anyway.

I think what PGF is looking for is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism)
Secular Humanism is a secular philosophy that espouses reason, ethics, and the search for human fulfillment, and specifically rejects supernatural and religious dogma as the basis of morality and decision-making. Secular Humanism is a life stance that focuses on the way human beings can lead happy and functional lives.

Which is very different from "just do what you have to survive, regardless of what that may be", which I don't need to tell you can lead to some fucked up shit happening.

-- comprehension points for Jon

QuotePGF is way more right.

lol?

Haha, its funny that you always react to everything, Arch. I figure I won't write anything else oriented towards you because you will probably get upset and go into another tantrum and erase all of my stuff, like you did to R. Forget, like I already said, no one is going to change. This is so stupid and pointless.

What's funny is that you write on the topic criticizing ideas when you clearly dont have much understanding of what is being said, handing out respect points like you even have a clue about what PGF is actually saying.

BTW- I can't erase anything in General forum, im not a mod here. Since you're talking about R, the reason I deleted his threads wasnt even because I disagreed with them (read my apology letter). Thanks for bringing up a completely unrelated and irrelevant incident though, that just shows you have no real interest in discussing the actual topic imo.

It sounds more like you have an undefined or neutral position in this case, but that doesnt mean you shouldnt read up on the subject a little before posting and declaring anything "pointless".

Umm, you are the one going on and on about religion, not me - this was originally a question of abortion, not whether or not G0d exists. Besides, I can't prove to you that G0d exists, just like you can't prove to me that he doesn't. And please don't post any more youtube crap, that doesn't convince anyone anyways.

Quote from: "Jon"Besides, I can't prove to you that G0d exists, just like you can't prove to me that he doesn't.

I seriously need to make a copy-paste document because I've run into this one sooo many times.

Religious people make religious claims. An example of this is "The Christian g0d exists". We can't prove that this g0d exists, like you said, because there is no evidence to support his existence.

And we can't DISPROVE that he exists, because there is no evidence against him as well! Any evidence that goes against g0d can be explained away by any magical excuse you can come up with in your head. Examples "You can't see g0d, he is invisible. He is also undetectable by science. He is also outside out universe, but interacts with it. He is not part of nature, but he made nature. He is unknowable, but makes himself known to some when he chooses, but not when people go looking for him."  You can literally make up any sort of excuse as to why your g0d can't be disproven.

We believe the validity of claims based on the existence of evidence to support them, and in this case, the evidence required for a claim as large as this one is extraordinary.
The lack of evidence against something is not grounds for establishing a default position of neutrality on the validity of the claim.

What you're doing is basically saying: "There is no evidence for the existence of Velius, but there's no evidence against him either, so let's leave it at that. It's pointless to discuss."
No, dude, that's not how it works (at-least not if you're a rational thinking human being).

 Killing any sort of rational discussion with this attitude is the most intellectually stagnating thing you can possibly do.

There is no evidence for the existence of Velius, so we don't believe his existence UNTIL evidence that supports his existence surfaces.
Until then, Velius (and g0d) are in the "Why should I believe you?" category.

There is no evidence for the existence of rainbow tentacle malboros from outer space, either. I guess we can't disprove them, so believe in them is warranted, yes?


The fact that I need to explain this to you just confirms what I already knew, you were just chiming in and declaring the whole g0d discussion a "pointless waste of time" because you probably haven't even bothered to look up this information or you just don't care. Which is OK I guess, but if we want to discuss the existence of dieties, let us. The thread has some heavy religious connotation, and there is no rule against this kind of discussion here.

Whoa, slow down there. I don't do research? You are the one who just is an atheist for the hell of it. Look, stop judging me. I don't know you and you sure as hell don't know me. I never whipped out stuff like "atheists are morons" or any crap like that. It seems to me that you are just doing research trying as hard as you can with your logic that there is no G0d, instead of actually checking on what you would most likely call "these so called proofs". I could point you easily enough in the right direction to "try and explain this with your logic", but whats the point? You would probably laugh or make fun of whatever I post, just like all atheists are so good at. Also, I wasn't just "chiming in", geez man I have my own opinions. Also right there was your problem, you said lets discuss the existence of dieties, even though you have no knowledge whatsoever about any G0d, whether it be the Christian's and Jew's G0d(which view point of Christian by the way? Catholic, Protestant or one of its hundreds of branches? Sects?), Allah, Budah, or anything else. Voldemort, the more you try to make me look like a fool, the sadder you look. Thats why I agree with GS, your ignorance, arrogance and your "rational" thinking are what seem to be blinding you. Look, I don't have something like a goal or anything to turn you into a believer, in fact I don't even want to get involved with your bizarre way of thinking, its depressing. You always think like this: If you don't prove it, I don't believe it. You must be hell to live with, making everyone around you annoyed. I'm right aren't I? I bet people just love your bitching.

QuoteYou always think like this: If you don't prove it, I don't believe it. You must be hell to live with,

I don't approach EVERY claim like that. Just the ones that claim that an all-powerful, all-knowing, time-less, misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic g0d exists.

QuoteAlso right there was your problem, you said lets discuss the existence of dieties, even though you have no knowledge whatsoever about any G0d, whether it be the Christian's and Jew's G0d(which view point of Christian by the way? Catholic, Protestant or one of its hundreds of branches? Sects?), Allah, Budah, or anything else.

Actually, I was raised a christian and attended a Jesuit high school and then university (Marquette University). I have studied every major religion in a college-room setting. I'm an atheist for a reason. I'm willing to bet I've studied religion a lot more than you as well as a great deal of people who subscribe to a particular religious belief.

QuoteYou are the one who just is an atheist for the hell of it.

I am by no means an atheist "just for the hell of it". I am an atheist as a result of my education. Learning about every religion and the problems it faces (mainly the negative-proof issue described above) is one of the primary reasons I am an atheist.

I work with statistics, research, and strategy for my IRL job. Pew Research is one of the fact-tanks I buy information from on a regular basis. Check out what they found:
Pew Research Center: Atheists Know More About Religion Than Believers (http://pewforum.org/Other-Beliefs-and-Practices/U-S-Religious-Knowledge-Survey.aspx)

Quoteyour ignorance, arrogance and your "rational" thinking are what seem to be blinding you

OH NO MY RATIONAL THINKING!!! WE'RE GOING TO HELLLLLL!!!!!!!!!

That comment is sickening. Are you going to persecute me for my rational thinking? Like your beloved religion persecuted scientists and scholars for ages trying to suppress and silence their "rational, scientific" thinking? Go to hell, Jon. (Irony!)

You still haven't told me what Christian denomination you originate from. "Raised as a Christian" is pretty bleak. Which one exactly? Plus, wtf does the Pew Research Center have to do with anything? You work with statistics, research and strategy (now I sound like Snake repeating everything), and buy info from them, but in the survey it says nowhere who the people were who were interviewed, it seems a bit sketchy to be honest. I can believe that Atheists, Jews and Mormons know more, but like I said, who were the interviewees? People off of the street? Surveys like this are always wishy washy, I mean to find Catholics, Protestants and Hispanic Catholics in America are easy enough, same for atheists, but finding (also how many of each group? Hopefully not just 1 person) the others brings doubt in my mind right away due to the fact that they are minorities. Plus this is only for America, which already tells me its made in America = at best wishy washy. Imagine the interviewer is atheist and puts this entire thing in any light he pleases.

QuoteYou still haven't told me what Christian denomination you originate from. "Raised as a Christian" is pretty bleak. Which one exactly?

I was raised catholic. And why does that matter, exactly? The point is that I was raised in a very religious setting, attending a very religious high school, attended a very religious university, and the more I learned about religion, the more atheist I became.

Quote from: "Jon"it seems a bit sketchy to be honest. Imagine the interviewer is atheist and puts this entire thing in any light he pleases.

Are you serious? Pew Research is one of the most respected independent research organizations in the planet. Statements like these make religious people look bad - delusional to the point where they will try and dismiss anything that contradicts their beliefs. Seriously, now you're just looking dumb all on your own, I don't even need to try.

http://pewresearch.org/about/ (http://pewresearch.org/about/)

The Pew Research Center is a nonpartisan "fact tank" that provides information on the issues, attitudes and trends shaping America and the world. It does so by conducting public opinion polling and social science research; by analyzing news coverage; and by holding forums and briefings. It does not take positions on policy issues.

The Center's work is carried out by seven projects:

    * Pew Research Center for the People & the Press
    * Pew Research Center's Project for Excellence in Journalism
    * Pew Internet & American Life Project
    * Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life
    * Pew Hispanic Center
    * Pew Global Attitudes Project
    * Pew Social & Demographic Trends Project

The Pew Research Center is a non-profit, tax-exempt corporation which operates under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Service code. It was established in 2004 as a subsidiary of The Pew Charitable Trusts, a Philadelphia-based public charity. Financial information is available upon request to Nikolas Wissmann, Director of Financial Administration.



After reading your idiotic dismissal of Pew Research as a reputable source, I am now convinced that you are zealous about your beliefs to the point where anything that contradicts them is just dismissed, just like you try to do with the stupid "but you can't disprove that He exists" fallacy, which you still ignored (probably cuz you have no answer to it).

To you, anyone and anything that contradicts your particular, learned, geographical, coincidental belief system is just "blinded by rationality". The irony is, atheists like me accept evidence as it comes, and change our view of the world with it, yet you call that being "blind, ignorant, and arrogant". That's the kicker!!

You keep bringing up non-issues (such as the specificity of my christian upbringing, accusations of pew research being atheist biased, that I'm an atheist "just for the hell of it", accusations that I have no religious knowledge when that is obviously not the case, and other irrelevant shit) into this discussion in a sad effort to avoid the issues at hand, Jon. I can't tell you how many religious loons I've seen doing this little dance over the internet.

Like Asmo told me once when I was trying to hold an untenable position: You don't have a leg to stand on.

http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5847

^
Read that Jon.

Reaffirming what Arch said: The "prove a negative" argument is void. It's impossible to prove something's NON-EXISTENCE [same goes with any Diety(-ies)]. At the same time though, that doesn't mean they do exist because there's the lack of evidence for them. That's why I choose to believe/think they don't exist, hence making me an agnostic atheist.

Make your choice

QuoteAre you an Agnostic Theist? You believe in a g0d(s) but you don't claim to KNOW of it's existence? IE: Unknowable g0d claim that you believe in.
Are you an Agnostic Atheist? You don't believe in a g0d(s) but you don't claim to KNOW it's non-existence? IE: Unknowable g0d claim that you don't believe in.
Are you an Gnostic Theist? You believe in a g0d(s) and you claim to KNOW of it's existence? IE: Knowable, personal g0d that you believe in.

You forgot to add Gnostic Atheist Arch XD


In regards to the Pew Forum Poll, here's an oral analysis making it MUCH EASIER TO UNDERSTAND (the #'s/stats and what they mean).

I think he got one of the stats wrong, but hey, it's hard to keep track of everything.

Quote from: "Wizzy"Read that Jon.

QuoteBtw, even if you don't believe in G0d, [...] but you sorta understand the idea/fact that G0d is omni-potent and omni-scient, then you should obviously understand that we (as humans) cannot understand or comprehend G0d, otherwise he wouldn't be G0d.

Omnipotent
Omniscient
Benevolent

Pick two. :mrgreen:

Tell me then one thing, what do you alone believe. Up until now you all as atheists post what other people have to say and think, but not once have you come out and said exactly what you, alone, think. I mean I am betting that atheists all have different view points, that is to say you guys aren't concrete on anything as well as believers, like you all together like to pretend. Take for example abortion. What do you (not someone else now) believe about that? Also, this is just out of curiosity now, but as atheists, tell me what you (again no examples please, just your own belief) believe happens to us when we die. This for some reason always has kept me interested, the answers sometimes I've seen are ridiculous to me, but probably make a whole world of sense to y'all. Just answer those 2 last questions, and I won't interfere with the atheist celebration going on around here on this thread anymore.

Quote from: "Voldemort"

QuoteYou still haven't told me what Christian denomination you originate from. "Raised as a Christian" is pretty bleak. Which one exactly?

I was raised catholic. And why does that matter, exactly? The point is that I was raised in a very religious setting, attending a very religious high school, attended a very religious university, and the more I learned about religion, the more atheist I became.

No wonder you are atheist, you were a god damm catholic. Be a Lutheranism Christian.

Make other topic pls instead of this, so it would not look like we are spamming the hell out of it.

Quoteyou guys aren't concrete on anything as well as believers, like you all together like to pretend

Personally I've found such large variance on both sides of the fence, but I digress.  

Quotewhat do you alone believe

(I'll try and make it this organized, but it's going to be a rambling bullet list so apologies in advance)

As already stated, I do not believe in an all powerful, all knowing, and all good creator.  Two of these qualities is certainly possible, but I can't really narrow them down, or even simply to "there's nothing".  And ultimately it doesn't matter, because what does matter is that I am in control of my own destiny.  Fate is coincidence, and it just happens -- there's no mystical force that guided me to be at one place at one time to do one thing.  Sometimes I'm in the right place at the right time, sometimes I'm at the right place at the wrong time, sometimes I'm in the wrong place at the right time, and sometimes I'm at the wrong place at the wrong time -- and I don't know which is which until well after the fact anyways :)

Abortion isn't as simple, since there are a multitude of personal, economical, health, and moral questions wrung around it.  However, because we have yet to come to a consensus on the matter, the choice to have a child is best determined by its parents more than any other body.  Condoms break and pills will sometimes not work and people are raped and giving birth kills people.  It's very simple for some armchair admiral to look down on people in such situations, but its a very, very tough decision that the potential mother has to live with for the rest of her life and the last thing she needs is society to either force her to have a child she doe not want at her own expense or socially condemn her for doing so.  I wish it didn't happen but more importantly I have no desire to share the burden either directly or indirectly.  And quite frankly there's a lot more good that pro-life protesters can be doing instead of protesting and praying.

Reply to Jon, of Post 11 on page 5

Lot's of question's and sorting through so I'll just take them one by one.


1. What do you Believe?

QuoteUp until now you all as atheists post what other people have to say and think, but not once have you come out and said exactly what you, alone, think.

Actually I said I was an agnostic atheist [Doesn't believe in a supreme diety(-ies), and doesn't claim TO KNOW FOR FACT whether they exist or not].

QuoteReaffirming what Arch said: The "prove a negative" argument is void. It's impossible to prove something's NON-EXISTENCE [same goes with any Diety(-ies)]. At the same time though, that doesn't mean they do exist because there's the lack of evidence for them. That's why I choose to believe/think they don't exist, hence making me an agnostic atheist.

2. Your take on abortion?

Pro-choice (for the mother's decision with two exceptions).  1st exception being that if and when fetus is considered a human, pro-life all the way, because that's taking life away or in other words, murder. 2nd exception being in scenarios of Rape/Incest; If that happens I DON'T think the mother should have to give birth because the sexual intercourse was against her own will and not out of her own choosing. I also think that Roe v. Wade should be extended so instead of roughly 90 days to make up mind on aborting yet-to-be child, how about to let's say 5 months or whenever the latest acceptable risk-free time is by doctors. However, if the mother were to consensually (out of her own choosing) decide to have sex with another man, I feel she's OBLIGATED to give birth since she knew what the consequences were.

3. Stance on the afterlife?
Reincarnation (Hindu Philosophy). No particular reason, just do.

Your beef seems to be with atheists in general. Why are you asking all of these questions?

And Shade, SHUT UP!

With hugs and kisses.

Wizdaddy  

(http://www.jesuschrist.co.uk/wp_images/atheism.jpg)

Also abortion is viable maybe rape, but if you wanted a booty call and now you don't wanna deal with a baby, you would end a life that has just started to develop, you are a sick fuck.

p.s. catholics are screwy crazy people who take it too far and touch little boys or so the stereotype says.

Quote from: "GeneralStrife"(http://www.jesuschrist.co.uk/wp_images/atheism.jpg)

Now can we please stop the strawmanning?

GS: ^ Troll Post (100% Incorrect).

You just ruined my love groove I was getting on before that filth came about. Phil, I'm a sad panda now .

lol a george carlin vid

Quote from: "Wizzy"Phil, I'm a sad panda now .

Me too =\

Quotecatholics are screwy crazy people who take it too far and touch little boys or so the stereotype says

And they still have a greater grasp of christianity more than any other sect.  Kind of sad, really.

not really, when lutherans and pilgrims starting moving away from the corruption of the church, those protestants saw how the catholic church was getting too big for its britches

QuoteAnd they still have a greater grasp of christianity more than any other sect. Kind of sad, really.

Not here in the USA (CIA World Factbook... type it in on google), Protestants outnumber Catholics by a huge percentage.
Probably because their depiction of Eucharist is more sensible (Bread and Wine = Symbols of Jesus' blood and flesh) as opposed to Catholics (Bread and Wine = Literally Jesus' blood and flesh).

That's really the only difference between the two in a nutshell.

QuoteProtestants outnumber Catholics by a huge percentage.

Grasp as in understanding, not membership.

QuoteThat's really the only difference between the two in a nutshell.

No.  No no.  Nononononnonononono.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/t ... ptura.aspx (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_solascriptura.aspx)

Excerpt:

QuoteB. THE DOCTRINE OF SOLA SCRIPTURA DOES NOT MEET ITS OWN CRITERIA

You might imagine that such a belief system as Protestantism, which has as its cardinal doctrine that Scripture alone is authoritative in matters of faith, would first seek to prove that this cardinal doctrine met its own criteria. One would probably expect that Protestants could brandish hundreds of proof-texts from the Scriptures to support this doctrine -- upon which all else that they believe is based. At the very least one would hope that two or three solid text which clearly taught this doctrine could be found -- since the Scriptures themselves say, "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established" (II Corinthians 13:1). Yet, like the boy in the fable who had to point out that the Emperor had no clothes on, I must point out that there is not one single verse in the entirety of Holy Scripture that teaches the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. There is not even one that comes close. Oh yes, there are innumerable places in the Bible that speak of its inspiration, of its authority, and of its profitability -- but there is no place in the Bible that teaches that only Scripture is authoritative for believers. If such a teaching were even implicit, then surely the early Fathers of the Church would have taught this doctrine also, but which of the Holy Fathers ever taught such a thing? Thus Protestantisms most basic teaching self-destructs, being contrary to itself. But not only is the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura not taught in the Scriptures -- it is in fact specifically contradicted by the Scriptures (which we have already discussed) that teach that Holy Tradition is also binding to Christians (II Thessalonians 2:15; I Corinthians 11:2).

Quote from: "GeneralStrife"(http://www.jesuschrist.co.uk/wp_images/atheism.jpg)

Atheism isnt a belief system. Its the lack of belief in religious claims.

Atheism doesnt claim to know how everything started. We're actuly EXTREMELY humble & intellectually honest about that- because we admit that we DONT know tha answers to everything- and we're OK with that.

Unlike most religions which have fairy tale explanations for everything science can't answer. (oh and when science does find answers, they are, of course, rejected as heresy)

Excerpt up in " ", probably would've read that (Sola Scriptura) as HW or something at my private school junior and senior year, but went to shitty public for reason's I'd prefer to keep to myself.

Guess my 10th Grade Social Studies teacher lied to me then in that there's actually more of a difference between the two.

Not well versed in the bible since the scriptures I read freshman year (seems like a ways back) were from a Catholic viewpoint [W/ it being of course a private, all-boys (rate "R" language yes), college-prep, and military school], so pardon me for my lack of expertise on the subject of church history, social justice and the scriptures and w.e. else comes to mind. Theo-politics was a contributing reason why I'm also an agnostic atheist. Would say "secular-humanist agnostic atheist" since it sounds bad ass and sexy, but idk what those 1st two words mean >__<

Quote from: "philsov"

Quotecatholics are screwy crazy people who take it too far and touch little boys or so the stereotype says

And they still have a greater grasp of christianity more than any other sect.  Kind of sad, really.

Don't they have the worst grasp of it lol?

Quote from: "Shade"Don't they have the worst grasp of it lol?

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/t ... ptura.aspx (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_solascriptura.aspx)

Once again.

Note that the above is rather an orthodox instead of pure catholic, but the argument is valid and correct in either case.

QuoteWe must read the Bible; it is God's Holy Word. But to understand its message let us humbly sit at the feet of the saints who have shown themselves "doers of the Word and not hearers only" (James 1:22), and have been proven by their lives worthy interpreters of the Scriptures. Let us go to those who knew the Apostles, such as Saints Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp, if we have a question about the writings of the Apostles. Let us inquire of the Church, and not fall into self-deluded arrogance.

By scripture alone and ignoring tradition, one misses out on vital context and receives incomplete and incorrect messages.

Lol, GS, Protestants didn't "move away", they ran away. Instead of fixing what was wrong with the Catholic church at their times, they decided to make their own religions, Protestant, Lutheran, ect. See, it was all like one big mirror, but then it shattered into a ton of little pieces just because of Martin Luther. And I can't believe that everyone believes those stereotypes, now I am not trying to defend Catholics or anything, but I am pretty sure all religions have priests or pastors or whatever you want to call them who molest children, which is very wrong, they should have (haha, like the Bible says) "a rope tied around their necks and drowned in the sea". Weird...but somehow that actually seems just to me, drown the child molesting mother fuckers...
Anyways, the only reason why catholics are so stereotyped is because of the media. I am 100% sure that practically all religions have leaders (whether priest, pastor, or whatever else) who abuse their power or maybe became what they are just to abuse others. But because America is so protestant heavy, strangely only catholics are all the time stereotyped as evil boy molesters and other crap. Also, Protestant, Catholic and all the other major denominations aren't sects.

As for my own questions, I'll answer them as well.
I am almost totally against abortion except if it was a rape or the mother is in serious danger of losing her life when giving birth.
As for death, I believe when we die pretty much what most Christians believe, you either go to heaven or hell, depending on if you were good or evil. However, its not over there. I think we are given chances to turn back to being good if we were evil or just went through our entire lives hating G0d or everyone around us, or we can just continue to be evil and sorta condemn ourselves. When doubts spring in my head, its never about hell, in fact I believe that there is a hell where evil people go and are "punished", but also people who turn away totally, like the atheist atheists. I just sometimes can't imagine what heaven would be like, at all. Still, in a "zealous" sort of way I believe there is a hell, so there must be a heaven. But no one probably cares, you are not me with my experiences, and you haven't seen what I've seen. If you are an atheist, I guess you must think I am crazy, but in the end we all die, and in the end your logic and money won't save you. I believe one day we all stand in front of G0d, and we have to explain why we did some things we did, and then there is nothing really left to save you except whether or not you were good or evil. Well, thats just what I believe...

Quote from: "Voldemort"Atheism isnt a belief system. Its the lack of belief in religious claims.

Atheism has one religious belief: there is no God.

Agnosticism is the one without any beliefs whatsoever.

Quoteyou are not me with my experiences, and you haven't seen what I've seen.

I would love to know what "experiences" you have had, which in your own mind, constitute as proof of the existence of:

1) A god which is magnificent enough to create the universe, yet petty enough to persecute homosexuals
2) A god which is all loving, all caring, and all-compassionate, yet has created an eternal hellfire of suffering for his own creations to suffer if they dare defy his will OR if his own loose creation (the devil) happens to corrupt them! Ahhh!
3) etc etc I can go on forever... the contradictions are endless.

I'd honestly love to know what "experiences" lead someone to believe in all of this crazy stuff. And remember, believing it just because it's how you were raised isn't demonstrable proof.

QuoteAtheism has one religious belief: there is no St. Ajora.

Agnosticism is the one without any beliefs whatsoever.

Are you seriously going to make me clarify this for the 2000th time? I remember having to clarify this error to you, specifically, in the past. Please listen this time, because the next time I'm just going to copy paste walls of text to you. Once again, "Agnosticism" doesn't refer to the person's beliefs or lack thereof!!!! Jesus H Christ get this through your head.

The words ATHEISM and THEISM refer to the person's BELIEFS or LACK OF BELIEFS.

The words GNOSTIC and AGNOSTIC refer to the person's CLAIM OF KNOWLEDGE (or lack of a claim), and has NOTHING AT ALL TO DO with your belief system. Saying "I'm agnostic" doesn't say anything whatsoever. Agnostic, of what? Dishwashers?

You DO understand the difference between KNOWLEDGE and BELIEF, right? I BELIEVE FFT is the best game ever. I KNOW that I'm 6'1. One is a FACT that is KNOWABLE by me and others, the other is just a BELIEF I subscribe to.

Are you an Agnostic Theist?
Then you believe in a g0d(s) but you don't claim to KNOW of it's existence. IE: Unknowable g0d claim that you believe in.

Are you an Agnostic Atheist?
Then you don't believe in a g0d(s) but you don't claim to KNOW it's non-existence. IE: Unknowable g0d claim that you don't believe in.

Are you an Gnostic Theist?
Then you believe in a g0d(s) and you claim to KNOW of it's existence. IE: Knowable, personal g0d that you believe in.

Are you an Gnostic Atheist?
Then you don't believe in a g0d(s), and you also CLAIM TO KNOW that it doesn't exist.


The atheists that are posting in this thread are all Agnostic Atheists. We don't claim to KNOW the non-existence of any g0ds (because you can't prove a negative. ie you cannot prove the non-existence of something which hasn't even shown itself to exist in the first place, like unicorns).

And we do not BELIEVE in the claims that any g0ds are real. If you show an atheist like is PROOF that a g0d is real (any g0d, Odin, Freya, Zeus, Jesus, Allah, whatever), then we would be forced to accept the existence of such a being, and we would also be able to claim to know that such a being exists. The problem is that no such proof exists, and until religious people can back up their grand claims with evidence, you will always have people who are just going to ask "OK? And why should I believe this?"

The next time someone says "I'm Agnostic", ask them, Agnostic of what? What are you claiming not to know? The existence of peanut butter?

I am not going to bother to answer you Voldemort, its obvious by the way you write that you are an aggressive person. I am not sinking to your level anymore. If you were raised as a catholic and turned away, then thats your own business. If you were raised that way, that must mean your parents / guardians were catholics or at least Christians, ask those same questions in that same tone to them. I am starting to get annoyed with you and your whining. Plus how you talk to the others shows that you are an asshole, plain and simple. Stop being arrogant, you haven't done anything super special anyways. Chill the fuck out Voldemort. Plain and simple.

Hey Jon,

Here's an example of how your religious stuff sounds to an atheist:

Me: "Hey, I have a giant firebreathing dragon in my garage"
You: "WTF OMG LET ME SEE IT!"

Me: "it's invisible"
You: "Hmm. Then let's take heat signatures of it's fire breath"

Me: "Can't do that. the breath is magical and burns things without heating any temperatures"
You: "Hmm. Then let's record the sounds it makes!"

Me: "Nope. It emits sounds at frequencies that are immeasurable by anything in the universe"
You: "Hmm. Ok. Let's cover it in paint so that we can see how big it is and what it's shape is!"

Me: "No. It's also immaterial. Paint wouldn't stick on it because it's in-corporeal. Actually, it's not measure-able
BY ANYTHING. EVER. It created all nature, but it also exists OUTSIDE of nature. You are just a human, and you cannot ever get to know it"

You: "Wtf? Then how can I know it's real!?!?"
Me: "Faith"

You: "Sorry, I don't believe you!"

You see at this point, there is no longer any distinction between your dragon and something which does not exist.
You would be a perfectly reasonable person in not believing me.

QuoteIf you were raised as a catholic and turned away, then thats your own business.

I wasn't "turned away". I realized it is all bull shit at a very young age.

It's your own business you have lacked the mental capacity and intellectual curiosity to come to this same conclusion and choose to rest on a comfortable delusion with a g0d that loves you, yet makes a hell to burn your enemies.

Have a fun life judging everyone else based on some ancient desert religion which you belong to simply because of the geographical location where you happened to be born in.

QuoteStop being arrogant, you haven't done anything super special anyways. Chill the fuck out Voldemort. Plain and simple.

After reading your last post the thought occurred to me that you might just be a young kid, and you're simply unaware of the greater whole of information that is available out there on this subject. Well, better now than never.

I don't judge anyone, thats the point ass clown. The only one judging here is you. Who just wrote about magic fire breathing dragons? And then very poorly trying to compare that fucked up story with G0d and his teachings? You are ridiculous.

QuoteWho just wrote about magic fire breathing dragons? And then very poorly trying to compare that fucked up story with G0d and his teachings?

Read it again, it's exactly how un-provable religious claims of un-knowable beings sound to reasonable people.

It's not a ridiculous comparison at all. The fire breathing dragon in this scenario is indistinguishable from your g0d.

I wrote it so you can understand why people don't believe in what you believe, because there is no reason to.

And you're damn right I'm doing judging, I made this thread to show exactly how insane and unethical beliefs rooted in religion (anti abortionist) can become. And the video is just a mild example.

I'm glad my posts make you uncomfortable, maybe one day you'll wake up from your delusion.

Uncomfortable? I just said you were ridiculous. What I've been brought up with? Geez, what the hell where you brought up with? You can keep bitching at me until we both are old and die, I don't care. Actually, what are you really trying to prove to me? I am starting to think you want me to come out and say "there is no G0d", but you can forget it. There is a G0d, and I think you are afraid. Yes, afraid. Afraid of death and judgement, afraid of the world, afraid of loss. Imagine for a second you are out on the street and you get hit by a bus, but you don't die, but you are dying. What would you tell your friends and loved ones right before you die? Huh? Fire breathing dragons? Plus I really am not judging you as you are me, I already have an idea from your temper filled posts who you are.

QuoteUncomfortable? No...

Ohhh yes. Uncomfortable:

QuoteI am starting to get annoyed with you and your whining.

QuoteActually, what are you really trying to prove to me?

How insane your religion sounds to those that aren't indoctrinated. I don't expect you to suddenly come to understand the issues with religion and faith, if that ever happens for you, it'll me a gradual process. It doesn't just happen in one day (as far as I can tell.)

QuoteThere is a G0d,

Yeah? Where's your proof? I still haven't seen it! If you get to state "there is a g0d" I also get to throw out that "there is a fire breathing dragon in my closet"

You can't disprove my claim, so I guess that dragon is real afterall huh?

Quoteand I think you are afraid. Yes, afraid. Afraid of death and judgement, afraid of the world, afraid of loss.

You're the one who is afraid of loss. That is why you need to believe in heaven and hell, so that you have an eternal place to go to, as well as your family, after they die. You need a comforting belief because it's easier than to have to accept and deal with the harsh realities... of, well, reality. You cannot accept that death is death, and when you're dead... you're dead. The end.

I accept that death is the end, I'm not afraid to admit that I don't know, the answer to everything, instead of trying to use some ancient desert texts to explain the things I cannot understand like your religion does for you.

But that isn't the case for you.

QuoteImagine for a second you are out on the street and you get hit by a bus, but you don't die, but you are dying. What would you tell your friends and loved ones right before you die?

I loved you all, good bye. That's pretty much it. What else is there to say?

BTW I've been in near-death experiences before, and it didn't make me magically start believing in Islam or something.

It's actually rather liberating, to know that there isn't some crazy obsessed child raping jealous pseudo masochistic old man on the other side waiting to fuck you in the ass for every time you masturbated (while he watched). If you don't believe me, read the bible! It's all in there.

I suggest you give it a shot.

I have also had near death experiences, and my beliefs weren't shaken either. I can hardly believe you think G0d is some "crazy obsessed child raping jealous pseudo masochistic old man", in fact I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. Are you high or something? Okay, the example of the bus wasn't too smart, I'll admit. I gtg now, but I guess this'll continue regardless.

You're missing the point of what I'm trying to say and focusing on 1 specific sentence that I wrote out of humor.

Are you just dodging my points on purpose or are you just that lacking in a response?

QuoteI have also had near death experiences, and my beliefs weren't shaken either.

A near-death experience (for someone like you) wouldn't have an impact on religious delusions. If anything, it might solidify them, because it's comforting to think that there is a heaven waiting for you in case you die.

The problem is that X = Comforting does not mean X = Real.

That's really the core issue with most religious beliefs and why people have such a hard time letting go of them (ie you).

That is why I said that the one who is afraid is you.  What is scarier? Knowing that when you die, THATS IT? Or believing that when you die, there's a nice heaven full of pillows and marshmallows waiting?

One takes way more courage to face than the other, and people will usually take the easiest way out, even if it's just a comfortable dream, even if it goes against everything we know about nature and the biological process of living things.

Quote from: "Voldemort"

Quoteyou are not me with my experiences, and you haven't seen what I've seen.

1) A St. Ajora which is magnificent enough to create the universe, yet petty enough to persecute homosexuals
2) A St. Ajora which is all loving, all caring, and all-compassionate, yet has created an eternal hellfire of suffering for his own creations to suffer if they dare defy his will OR if his own loose creation (the devil) happens to corrupt them! Ahhh!

1) Would you make race that would be heterosexuals and still be homosexuals and would end the race if all were homosexuals.
2) Btw there isn't single word about god creating hell. Defy eh? More like not believe in god or don't live a good life, wow he is really that evil, especially giving his only son to die for our sins, only thing is the devil where you kinda had your point, but we all are basicly "loose creations" to begin with.

Quote from: "Voldemort"How insane your religion sounds to those that aren't indoctrinated. I don't expect you to suddenly come to understand the issues with religion and faith, if that ever happens for you, it'll me a gradual process. It doesn't just happen in one day (as far as I can tell.)

How about you think about existence itself by thinking in the way of science, like atoms that you can't even see, or we came out of nothinges, or we were once fish, or planet is ball that spins, or all stars are actually suns in long distance,dinasours existed long before humans,or , and you say religion is hard believe? I find some of these facts very hard to believe still(some of them not facts) and you find that we actually came from somewhere and had purpose to exist.


It's clear to me that you had tooken this way too literally, since all religions are about teachings that teach us to be nice each other, hope that there still is something beyond death.(Expect some other cults that believe on in some evil being)


Ps. This picture is so awsome .
(http://www.jesuschrist.co.uk/wp_images/atheism.jpg)

Quotesince all religions are about teachings that teach us to be nice each other

(http://www.funnyforumpics.com/forums/LOL/1/File0004205.JPG)

Shade, the degree of ignorance towards science in your post is astounding.

Quoteby thinking in the way of science, like atoms that you can't even see, or we came out of nothinges, or we were once fish, or planet is ball that spins, or all stars are actually suns in long distance,dinasours existed long before humans,or , and you say religion is hard believe? I find some of these facts very hard to believe still(some of them not facts) and you find that we actually came from somewhere and had purpose to exist.

You seriously have to be the most ignorant and uneducated person I have ever seen on this site.

What you just wrote is an embarrassment to religious people everywhere. Are you in elementary school or something?
Have you ever had a formal education?

I don't even know how to respond. It's almost as if the more ignorant you are about the world around you and the more education (particularly about religious texts) you lack, the easier it is to believe in religion. Amazing.

Quotelike atoms that you can't even see, or we came out of nothinges, or we were once fish, or planet is ball that spins, or all stars are actually suns in long distance,dinasours existed long before humans,
I find some of these facts very hard to believe still(some of them not facts)

ermm.... to each their own and all that, but the whole point of science is to test and prove things..... we can hand you a microscope to prove atoms and cells exist. we can hand you a fossil record detailing how man evolved from lesser beings, we can show you telescope pictures of far away stars, and we can show you fossils of dinosaurs. Can you give me hard evidence that cain killed abel? i demand a trial!

(http://friendlyatheist.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/atheism-is-wonderful.jpg)

lolscience...i need only say one thing...nuclear weapons = nuclear holocaust = end of earth

general strife, do you honestly believe that? XD
just because someone doesnt believe in some sort of diety/your diety, they dont have morals? do you honestly need someone to TELL you its wrong to kill someone? if you didnt believe in a diety, would you suddenly think its ok to kill people? or would you still go "you know, itd suck if i got killed, so i dont think im gonna kill people. that sounds fair."
also "ultimate moral authority" and "justice".... sorry isnt it the GOVERNMENT who is supposed to pass laws? not the church?  o.o (ignoring the part where PLENTY of theists have killed, raped, pillaged, tortured, etc, in THE NAME OF THE "ULTIMATE MORAL AUTHORITY"?)

Yeah, I hate you science! Why did you invent things such as the internet, computers, cars, etc? /end troll

i love science but it comes with its evils ffm...i dont know...this thread is pointless and will go nowhere

Quote from: "Voldemort"

Quotesince all religions are about teachings that teach us to be nice each other

(http://www.funnyforumpics.com/forums/LOL/1/File0004205.JPG)



Shade, the degree of ignorance towards science in your post is astounding.

Quoteby thinking in the way of science, like atoms that you can't even see, or we came out of nothinges, or we were once fish, or planet is ball that spins, or all stars are actually suns in long distance,dinasours existed long before humans,or , and you say religion is hard believe? I find some of these facts very hard to believe still(some of them not facts) and you find that we actually came from somewhere and had purpose to exist.

You seriously have to be the most ignorant and uneducated person I have ever seen on this site.

What you just wrote is an embarrassment to religious people everywhere. Are you in elementary school or something?
Have you ever had a formal education?

I don't even know how to respond. It's almost as if the more ignorant you are about the world around you and the more education (particularly about religious texts) you lack, the easier it is to believe in religion. Amazing.

Lol go tell those facts that I told at time of knights and shit, yeah it's more easy to believe that then existence of a god, oh wait not.
You just did your self, the point wasn't fucking that are they facts or not, but they would be fucking harder to believe then a god.

Also LOL for your lol since any of the Ten Commandments or The Golden Rule have nothing to do with teaching to living a good life, wait OR IT DOES.

You fail Arch.

Quotethey would be fucking harder to believe then a St. Ajora.

so believing the earth is 6billion years old and that we evolved from lesser forms of life (as evidenced by the fossil record, evolution, and other various proofs) is more difficult to believe then "there is a magical dude who floats in the sky and made the earth happen cause he was bored, and then put evidence to prove otherwise on said earth because he thought itd be lulzy and a good way to troll scientists, and left ZERO evidence of what he did"?

Quote from: "Shade"You just did your self, the point wasn't fucking that are they facts or not, but they would be fucking harder to believe then a St. Ajora.

Except that the earth spinning, genetic ancestry, and atoms ARE FACTS.

They are NOT harder to believe than religious claims BECAUSE THERE IS DEMONSTRABLE EVIDENCE TO PROVE THEIR EXISTENCE. The only way scientific evidence is harder to believe than religion is if your religion has taught you to disregard any and all evidence that might go against it (pre-indoctrination).

QuoteYou fail Arch.

How's that? I'm not the one who is making categorical mistakes about the reality that surrounds me, lol.

Come back here when you receive a proper education and know what the hell it is you're talking about. (I'm seriously starting to think you are either very very young, or in an environment that purposefully keeps you ignorant. Perhaps a very poor country? Where do you study again?)

Why do I bother, you probably don't even know what half those terms mean. I knew you were one of FFH's worst posers Shade, but I had no idea the level of uselessness your mind could really reach.

QuoteWhat would you tell your friends and loved ones right before you die?

"Thank you for everything.  Truly.  Everything.  Now, please cremate me and use the ashes as fertilizer."

Yes, seriously.

Quote from: "Voldemort"genetic ancestry

Not techinically a fact, because evolution is still a theory (I am a biology student and I whole heartedly believe in evolution, just sayin it is not a fact yet)

If you're a biology student, might I recommend some reading on "Cell Theory"?  

How the word theory is used in technical, scientific literature and common English vernacular is quite different, and anyone who scoffs and says "its just a theory" doesn't understand this disparity.  

Also, gravity is still a theory, afaik  

Quote from: "Gotwald"Not techinically a fact, because evolution is still a theory (I am a biology student and I whole heartedly believe in evolution, just sayin it is not a fact yet)

Common, common mistake. We were actually talking about this in chat earlier.

The word THEORY has 2 definitions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory)
refers to contemplation or speculation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory)
In the sciences, a scientific theory comprises a collection of concepts, including abstractions of observable phenomena expressed as quantifiable properties, together with rules (called scientific laws) that express relationships between observations of such concepts. A scientific theory is constructed to conform to available empirical data about such observations, and is put forth as a principle or body of principles for explaining a class of phenomena.[1]


The second is a collection of facts used to explain the world around us.

The "theory" of evolution is a scientific theory.

A Scientific Theory is even stronger than just facts.

More from the same page:
A common misconception is that scientific theories are rudimentary ideas that will eventually graduate into scientific laws when enough data and evidence has been accumulated. A theory does not change into a scientific law with the accumulation of new or better evidence. A theory will always remain a theory, a law will always remain a law.

Which is why "The Theory Of Evolution" will never be called a "Law of Evolution", like I know some of you ignorant religious types LOVE to state. And that doesn't matter, because the Scientific Theory of Evolution IS MADE UP of Scientific Laws and facts.

Evolution doesn't require your "belief" to be real anymore than the toothbrush you use every morning.

 

Beliefs as defined in-thread:  Agnostic Atheist

I am unwilling to rule out the possibility of a deity, but given the lack of evidence I think we have to do without.

"Religion":  Non-practicing Taoist

That's a joke.  I have serious Buddhist leanings, but I don't meditate or anything.

My beliefs in the smallest nutshell I can force them into:

Life is pretty much a painful and unpleasant experience.  Discomfort and dissatisfaction is far more common than comfort and happiness.

Pain (physical/mental/spiritual/emotional/psychic/etc.) causes people to make bad decisions.  A person in pain will do pretty much anything to get rid of that pain, including causing pain to others.

Causing pain to others increases the odds that they will cause pain to you (because they are making bad decisions/not thinking clearly).

My one and only moral rule:

Cause as little pain as possible.

This one rule requires absolutely no faith (I think faith is a form of intellectual dishonesty), and yet it leads to a highly moral way of life.  It becomes a simple matter of cause and effect.


NOTE TO JON:  Archeal is not being an arrogant asshole here.  Believe it or not, in his mind (and mine), he is trying to help you.  Remember, if you are afraid to have your faith tested (by other people or especially yourself questioning it), your faith is not that strong.  Don't be afraid to look into your own beliefs.

Gawd is real and the Earth is the center of the solar system!

Quote from: "Voldemort"Except that the earth spinning, genetic ancestry, and atoms ARE FACTS.

If you woulda realized THE POINT you would know that post had nothing to do with facts itself, only thing that I was talking about would you believe year 500 or even lower in without proving either of things existences, what would you believe, god or those scientific facts and theories.

Quote from: "Voldemort"They are NOT harder to believe than religious claims BECAUSE THERE IS DEMONSTRABLE EVIDENCE TO PROVE THEIR EXISTENCE. The only way scientific evidence is harder to believe than religion is if your religion has taught you to disregard any and all evidence that might go against it (pre-indoctrination).

Ah yes it's not hard grasp something like atom that 1. you can't see 2. you can't feel 3. you can't hear 4. you can't smell it 5. you can't taste it
Also what evidence can go againts something that isn't meant to be taking literally like you do. Only way scientific evidence is hard to believe when you never had no information about it.

Quote from: "Voldemort"How's that? I'm not the one who is making categorical mistakes about the reality that surrounds me, lol.

Come back here when you receive a proper education and know what the hell it is you're talking about. (I'm seriously starting to think you are either very very young, or in an environment that purposefully keeps you ignorant. Perhaps a very poor country? Where do you study again?)

Why do I bother, you probably don't even know what half those terms mean. I knew you were one of FFH's worst posers Shade, but I had no idea the level of uselessness your mind could really reach.

Why should I bother with your stupid post, well they are pretty damm funny to read since you can't seem to grasp idea of me countering your point againts all religion, that was how stupid they sound, and happened to miss it totally. that's why this is now funny. Also I told you it's wasn't about the facts are they true or not, what is harder to believe without evidence about god or scientific facts.
I had no idea that you can't even read, or you can't even post repond to every thing, those thin gthat you skipped were about facts, and you can't even respond to those, instead you are like you are stupid for not knowing about that the earth spinning, genetic ancestry, and atoms are facts, when I did not talk about that at all.


Ps. Why do you seem to know nothing about religion at all?

Before Arch winds up his Hail-Mary on you, I thought I'd soften you up a bit since you're keeping everyone entertained.

Anyways:

1st Para: What would I think in the year 500 (BC or AD Shade?) about Deities and of the like? I nor anyone else could tell you that since we didn't live back then. What I can and will say though is that in those times, telling people that you didn't believe G0D existed would result in getting your head chopped off in England and many other European countries. People in present day know this is one of many things to be true due to documentation (evidence), which reveals it as fact.

Said Statements up above are very broad, but to the point.

2nd Para: Your poorly written question is what I'll reply to. Nobody is literally talking about concrete/tangible things but rather abstract ones like the concept of G0D. Because this idea of a Deity(-ies) can't be proven/disproven as something that physically exists, people are inclined to BELIEVE/THINK IT IS OR IS NOT REAL.

3rd Para: Not worth responding to since it mostly only has mud being slung around. He can speak for himself on that.

PS: Did you not see that he just got done telling you he was subjected to the Catholic environment in his adolescent and college years at Marquette? It's best not to make blanked statements on a topic you're not  well-versed with.

And I learned this the hard way from the "Don't F*CK With Me" thread that I published recently.

To be fair, many religious founders were the "love and peace" sort and it's their followers that later started the "convert or die!" bullshit.  The only two exceptions I can think of off the top of my head are Hubbard and Mohammed, the former being malicious and possibly crazy(er than most) to begin with, and the latter having commanded troops into battle.  I have no idea if there's someone people attribute Judaism to, but their biblical years at least were as racial isolationists looking out only for themselves and their prosperation, even if at the expense of (possibly hostile) heathens.  Not quite the same as "convert or die!"  More like "get out of our way or die!"

I have no idea who founded Satanism, but worship of self is most likely another exception to loving and accepting religious founders.  >_>

Wow, The Young Turks videos are being posted here?  Oy, I may have to stop visiting here lol. TYT are just a group of confused, emotional, and extreme leftists.

Advocating the choice to having an abortion is conservative, not liberal.  Liberals are the people in the streets who probably want to outlaw the act of abortion.  They're the ones who say "We know what's right for everyone, so let's make it law."  All TYT does is confuse the two when it's convienient for them.

I'll have to rant on this later when I have time, if I think about it...

Apparently, atheism has its own definition of free speech: When I attack you, it's just criticism. When you attack me, you are practicing RELIGIOUS OPPRESSION AAAARGGH THE EVIL THEOCRACY!!!
(http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/9/9e/Advice_antitheist.jpg)

Quoteonly thing that I was talking about would you believe year 500 or even lower in without proving either of things existences, what would you believe, St. Ajora or those scientific facts and theories.
Ah yes it's not hard grasp something like atom that 1. you can't see 2. you can't feel 3. you can't hear 4. you can't smell it 5. you can't taste it

And here we come to the #1 problem with what you're trying to say. You can't see, feel, hear, smell, or taste any g0d, from any religion. They are just not knowable by the senses. Many natural processes are, however, observable. Sure, atoms and cells might be too small for your ocular mechanism to detect individually, but given a tool (microscope), you are able to see them.

I understand that what you are trying to say is not that scientific facts aren't facts, but that to some ancient society without scientific knowledge they would be a more difficult explanation to believe than a religious one, right?

My response is that the point is irrelevant and it adds not value whatsoever to religious claims.  The same could be said Zeus and Odin and Mythology, that it's easier for an ancient "stone age, year 500 civilization" to believe in any Mythos, that doesn't make it any more valid than any other religion.

Oh! It's easier for Ancient Norway to believe in Norse Mythology than it was for them to believe in Evolution and Atoms!

Who cares? That doesn't add ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to the validity of Freya or Norse Mythology.

You made your point, and I understand it, the problem is that it's the dumbest point in the entire thread, Shade.

Also Shade please PLEASE take an English class. One of the reasons your points usually come across all wrong is because your English is terrible and it's really hard to understand you.

Quote from: "GeneralStrife"Apparently, atheism has its own definition of free speech: When I attack you, it's just criticism. When you attack me, you are practicing RELIGIOUS OPPRESSION AAAARGGH THE EVIL THEOCRACY!!!

spoiler

(http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/9/9e/Advice_antitheist.jpg)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism)

Read that. That is what most atheists want, and if you're a rational person whatsoever interested in the development of humanity as a whole, it's going to sound pretty damn good to you too.

It's not hard to see how religion can get in the way of that.

Instead of defending your beliefs with evidence, all you can do is whine and cry that they are being questioned. If you want to adhere to a belief system, then that is your choice. But don't be surprised that there's people out there who will question them and will want to see evidence before believing that there is an invisible man in the sky that watches everything you do, planned everything you do from day 1 (but gave you freedom of will at the same time, somehow).

Quoteall you can do is whine and cry that they are being questioned.

Or strawman and troll and never state your own position on anything.  

Alright, I have a few questions then, especially for Arch who once was Christian, now turned atheist. You know probably because of your upbringing about "miracles", not only in Christian churches (Catholic, Protestant, ect.), but other religions altogether as well. How can you explain things like healing rivers, where sick and crippled people literally go and get fully healed? One example right off of the top of my head is Lourdes (I hope I spelt it right, haha). You as a former Catholic, I am nearly totally sure you've heard of that place in France. Explain stuff like that atheist-boy. Oh wait, you can't. There is no way to prove something like that with logic or science. Yet the thousands of left crutches at the river is proof of the healings, plus the thousands of testamonies. You think those people who were termanilly sick or crippled pretended to go to what to you probably seems a "magical" river to get healed? You think that they are crazy? Or the little girl who dug in the mud to create a river out of nothingness? Explain the events at medjugorje. (Yeah, too all you non-Catholics, you might get a bit confused, sorry) Look, its all you atheists who are so damn lazy to investigate these "magic mysteries" that we Christians call miracles that are blinding you, to the truth. Please stop trying to convince me with all this atheist bull shit, I won't change because I too at first was skeptical about miracles, until I investigated them myself. I know that this can't be done over night, but please look just into these 2 things and you might come to understand why I think the way I do. Please don't just look at it for like 5 seconds and jump out with more atheist stuff, really investigate if you would be so kind, then explain. I believe and know in G0d. Maybe you just need to see some true miracles...

QuoteExplain stuff like that atheist-boy. Oh wait, you can't.

QuoteLook, its all you atheists who are so damn lazy

Quoteall this atheist bull shit

And you call out Arch for being rude?  Holy crap.  Be civil.

Real response later, but honestly Jon, you've kinda stooped =\

Fine fine, I will try to remain civil from now on, but I am waiting for an explaination please. Sorry if I was rude. I guess I got a little outta hand since everyone here seems mostly atheist...

Oh wow, haha, this thread is worse than I realized.  I didn't notice it was at 8 pages, turned into a thread about religion, and the original post was from last month.  Well so much for bashing on TYT (they make it sooo easy).  And I'm definitely not getting involved in this dead-horse religion debate :roll: Dirt slinging.

And that's all it is.  He could've calmly said, "Ma'am, I know you're against abortion, but let me tell you my story..."  They probably could've had a more civil conversation than that and, who knows, he may have even convinced them that he was right.  No one can listen when everyone is busy yelling.[/spoiler]

Jon: Testimonies aren't proof. And yes, I know of the miracles you speak of, I studied them all. There is not a single recorded case in medical history of a person "miraculously" recovering from anything. People survive illness, yes. People also die from illness. That doesn't mean there is some divine hand at work, and is hardly proof of any spiritual presence deciding who lives and who dies.

There's thousands of people that claim that they have been visited by aliens and taken to other galaxies, that doesn't make it true or constitute as proof. I can tell you that I was visited by g0d. Does that make it true?

I was in a car accident and my guts were spilling out of me. Then Allah came down from the sky and touched me and I saw my wounds heal and then I was fine. Do you believe me? Is my testimonial proof enough for you to believe me? Why don't you believe in Allah now? My miracle should be proof that He exists. How come you're not a Muslim!?! BELIEVE IN ME DAMMIT!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence)

Not a single "miracle" constitutes demonstrable, provable evidence and even less scientific evidence.

My internet dies for a few days and when I come back, it is filled with stupidity and Arch kicking ass.

Arch- I know now why so many people hate you:  you are incredibly intelligent and not afraid to show it.  Kudos.

I really can't add anything that Arch hasn't covered already, so all I can really say is that I know, without a shadow of a doubt, that all religion is utter bull-shit, and anyone who thinks science is a religion is a fucking moron.

Science is the pursuit of knowledge, regardless of whether or not we like the truth.   If g0d was real, science would seek to prove it.
I strongly suggest everyone go to rationalwiki.com and read, a lot.

Quote from: "Voldemort"You made your point, and I understand it, the problem is that it's the dumbest point in the entire thread, Shade.

And your point was this, and btw my argument was going againts this.

Quote from: "Voldemort"How insane your religion sounds to those that aren't indoctrinated.

So yeah if we would not have schools, we would not about science, but neither religions, both of them would be weird to teach someone that is from tribe, that hasn't been told about these things at young age.

^^
This was my point.

My english doesn't really suck(-10 from last exam), my typing sucks, ALOT.

Quote from: "Voldemort"I was in a car accident and my guts were spilling out of me. Then Allah came down from the sky and touched me and I saw my wounds heal and then I was fine. Do you believe me? Is my testimonial proof enough for you to believe me? Why don't you believe in Allah now? My miracle should be proof that He exists. How come you're not a Muslim!?! BELIEVE IN ME DAMMIT!

I love the argument that something must have evidence for it to be believed in.

There's thousands of people that claim the Earth is round, that doesn't make it true.
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/foru ... board=10.0 (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?board=10.0)

Damn it!  I said I wouldn't get into the religion argument, but it's sucks me in, man :\  And I'm not even religious, lol.

See, Arch is lazy. He has time to find any piece of crap posted on the internet for us to read, but I ask him to just look into what I posted and he snaps back at me as if I was crazy. Like I said, are the thousands of crutches left behind and testamonies crazy?! Why would thousands of people even bother to do something like that in the first place if it wasn't real, and besides that, they are all confirmed, none get published to the public that aren't 100% reliable. If there is the slightest doubt, then it doesn't get published. I never said Voldemort wasn't intelligent, in fact I don't doubt that you are. Its just that you are also extremely arrogant, lazy and mostly talking through your emotions. Well, I can understand, I was once a little kid too living by pure feelings. I am not even gonna comment on DaveSW, he is just like those religious Christians just yelling out on the street. No difference at all. Except he is the atheist. I just wonder why testamonies are suddenly not good enough proof. Arch, wasn't it you who posted the Pew crap? Surveys are more or less testamonies, c'mon, can you really trust what someone else tells you? You can trust some organization, but you can't trust photographs, testamonies, fucking youtube videos of people telling about their experiences? Just stop. Read the post I made at the very top of this page (8). Try to explain either one of those 2 with reason, not by snapping out "blahblahblah testamonies don't count because I am Voldemort the ass clown who is fucking lazy." Just try. I looked at all of your posts of wikis, youtube videos and the other stuff with a very clear and serious mind, not a hot blooded mind like you seem to have. And your 5 second made up testamony of Allah just further shows that you are either lazy or scared to check out something that you cannot prove. As for Dave, I have no idea why you are so aggresive and filled with pure hate against anyone who believes in anything, so try to chill a bit and check out what I wrote as well.

Jon, to be quite frank I saw a report on TV about that specific river...
They studied the number of "cures" and out of 10,000 ill people 32 people recovered, when there was no hope.
And that's the same ratio as anywhere else in the world; not just for that cure-all river. Meaning there is nothing miraculous happening.

Yes some people heal.
No it's not a miracle, they would have healed anyway.

Science is advanced but we can't predict everything. The human body is a wonderful organism that sometimes pull of impressive stunts.... sometimes.

You're wrong, the river in Lourde doesn't always heal, that is true, but there are thousands of crutches, wheel chairs and testamonies. I too am not sure why some get healed, some don't. And isn't it funny Zodiac, you said it yourself in a "matter of fact way": 32 with no hope to be healed, healed. WTF? And you are still an atheist...

For some no proof is needed, and they believe. For others, no amount of proof will ever be enough.

Hey mister, did anyone say doctors were perfect? If they are trained in the 90s, now in 2010 they lack 20 years of new information.
And also, we don't know everything.

I never claimed that. But if doctors can tell you're going to die and not heal, and that they're right 99.68% of the time, I wouldn't even bother trying your cure-all river and would enjoy the rest of life I have left. If I survive outside the doc's expectations then cool.

Those healings are not miraculous. They are simply unexpected.
Else we would only see xtians getting "miraculous" healings.

Quote from: "Jon"but there are thousands of crutches, wheel chairs and testamonies.

Jon: Testimonies aren't proof.

Quote from: "Jon"For some no proof is needed, and they believe.

Exactly! Just like I believe in Zeus. I have no proof, but I believe he exists. Does that make him real? No.

Or Odin, or Allah, or Cthulhu. Some people believe in them without proof. Does that make them real? No.

See where I'm going now?  Belief in something is zero indication of it's existence.

All of humanity could convert to Islam tomorrow. Would that mean you are wrong, Jon?

Would that make Allah real?

What do you say to the Muslim? The Orthodox Jew? The Hindu? Are they wrong, and you are right?

Thats the point though! Some of those people weren't dying! Read carefully, they left their crutches and wheel chairs behind. Most people who are crippled are not dying, they are physically disabled through disease, birth, war or anything else. They go to the river, pray and get healed and walk out. You cannot explain that.

@Voldemort: Reread everything I posted. I never once said in which diety I believe, all I said was I believe in G0d. I am far from arrogant btw in real life.

Quote from: "Jon"@Voldemort: Reread everything I posted. I never once said in which diety I believe, all I said was I believe in G0d. I am far from arrogant btw in real life.

Then you aren't religious. You're just a deist. You believe in X Y Z supernatural creator entity to which you ascribe the attributes you feel like that deity possesses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism)

Deism is the standpoint that reason and observation of the natural world, without the need for organized religion, can determine that a supreme being created the universe. Further the term often implies that this supreme being does not intervene in human affairs or suspend the natural laws of the universe. Deists typically reject supernatural events such as prophecy and miracles, tending to assert that God (or "The Supreme Architect") has a plan for the universe that is not to be altered by intervention in the affairs of human life. Deists believe in the existence of God, on purely rational grounds, without any reliance on revealed religion or religious authority or holy books.

There's thousands of deists out there, all with their own interpretations of what this "g0d" is. All with zero evidence behind it's existence, just like religious claims.

Anyway, Jon, what do you say to the Muslim? The Orthodox Jew? The Hindu? Are they wrong, and you are right? Is their g0d false, and yours real?

All of humanity could convert to Islam tomorrow. Would that mean you are wrong, Jon?

Would that make Allah real? And your g0d is false?

Wrong! I do believe in one certain G0d, I just am not going to tell you, Voldemort! Why do you always say 0 evidence? I mean come on, lets look at this at least from the correct perspective: are you saying that all the people in the entire world who believe in some G0d are just crazy? Can you truly say, that the millions of believers (whether it be G0d, Allah, Budah, or anything else) are just fantansizing it all? That they are just believing because they have nothing better to do? This is why I say you are arrogant, you are nobody to say something like that. I think the problem is that we have forgotten to be honest. Forgotten where we all originally have come from and where we will be going once we are dead. Now for the last time (I hope), please just once, instead of posting more stuff like you just did, try to explain, after doing just a little research "miracles". I gave 2 examples at the very top of this page (8).

QuoteWrong! I do believe in one certain G0d, I just am not going to tell you, Voldemort!

That's awfully convenient. Why not, if I may ask? What's so secretive about your ONE particular g0d?

Also, stop putting arguments in my mouth and answer my question:

What do you say to the Muslim? The Orthodox Jew? The Hindu? Are they wrong, and you are right? Is their g0d false, and yours real?

All of humanity could convert to Islam tomorrow. Would that mean you are wrong, Jon?

Would that make Allah real? And your g0d is false?

Quoteare you saying that all the people in the entire world who believe in some G0d just crazy?
Can you truly say, that the millions of believers (whether it be G0d, Allah, Budah, or anything else) are just fantansizing it all?
That they are just believing because they have nothing better to do?

No. Those people honestly believe in their particular g0ds. That doesn't make those g0ds real, though.

Please, understand: People believing in something DOES NOT make something real.

QuoteI think the problem is that we have forgotten to be honest. Forgotten where we all originally have come from and where we will be going once we are dead.

No, the problem is that you keep typing walls of text without addressing the points that are being brought up in this thread.

No one knows where we all originally came from.

Not me, not you, not anyone.

However, unlike you, us Atheists ADMIT to not knowing, because there is no proof of where we came from.

Quote from: "Voldemort"Anyway, Jon, what do you say to the Muslim? The Orthodox Jew? The Hindu? Are they wrong, and you are right? Is their g0d false, and yours real?

All of humanity could convert to Islam tomorrow. Would that mean you are wrong, Jon?

Would that make Allah real? And your g0d is false?

Anyway, Arch, what do you say to the Muslim? The Orthodox Jew? The Hindu? Are they wrong, and you are right? Is their ideology false, and yours real?
All of humanity could convert to Islam tomorrow. Would that mean you are wrong, Arch?
Would that make Allah real? And your ideology is false?


I am serious by the way.

There are as many paths to G0d as there are religions.

Quote from: "Shade"All of humanity could convert to Islam tomorrow. Would that mean you are wrong, Arch?
Would that make Allah real?

No.

Because I think evidence proves things, not BELIEF, like Jon is saying.

QuoteThere are as many paths to G0d as there are religions.

Address the points being brought up, or stop posting.

Quoteare you saying that all the people in the entire world who believe in some G0d just crazy?
Can you truly say, that the millions of believers (whether it be G0d, Allah, Budah, or anything else) are just fantansizing it all?
That they are just believing because they have nothing better to do?

No. Those people honestly believe in their particular g0ds. That doesn't make those g0ds real, though.

Please, understand: People believing in something DOES NOT make something real.

QuoteI think the problem is that we have forgotten to be honest. Forgotten where we all originally have come from and where we will be going once we are dead.

No, the problem is that you keep typing walls of text without addressing the points that are being brought up in this thread.

No one knows where we all originally came from.

Not me, not you, not anyone.

However, unlike you, us Atheists ADMIT to not knowing, because there is no proof of where we came from. You want to be honest? Honesty = accepting that you don't have the answer.

Once you ACCEPT that no one has the answers to life and death, you will understand why every religion is BS.

Every religion claims they have the answer. Are all of them wrong, except yours?

I know where we came from, we were all created by G0d, and one day, at the end of our lives we will return back to him. Now whether or not we stayed true or turned away depends where we will spend our eternity. You really must stop being so judgemental, only G0d can point the finger. If he willed it, you or I could die in the next second. Also, jackass, you just asked
"Anyway, Jon, what do you say to the Muslim? The Orthodox Jew? The Hindu? Are they wrong, and you are right? Is their g0d false, and yours real?

All of humanity could convert to Islam tomorrow. Would that mean you are wrong, Jon?

Would that make Allah real? And your g0d is false?"

I answered "There are as many paths to G0d as there are religions."
This just goes to show how tempramental you are yet again towards me and Shade because oh no! We think differently than you!

Quote from: "Jon"I know where we came from, we were all created by G0d, and one day, at the end of our lives we will return back to him.

And how do you know this?

You read it somewhere? Somebody told you? It says it in some holy book?

That's really honest, Jon. Way to be honest with yourself.

Thinking you have the answers to life itself is arrogant, ignorant, and delusional, Jon.

Quote from: "Voldemort"Anyway, Jon, what do you say to the Muslim? The Orthodox Jew? The Hindu? Are they wrong, and you are right? Is their g0d false, and yours real?

All of humanity could convert to Islam tomorrow. Would that mean you are wrong, Jon?

Would that make Allah real? And your g0d is false?

You asked it you got it.
No. For exalty the same reason as you told me.
You see it works both ways

Unlike you seem to think that we don't ADMIT too that our religion/god may not be true, since there isn't proof of were we came from, but we believe that we were made by god(s). You don't. And this point forward I don't give a jack shit, since this is leading nowhere(anymore).

Quote from: "Shade"You asked it you got it.
No. For exalty the same reason as you told me.
You see it works both ways

What? I think you screwed up your quotes there Shade.

My answer to my own Allah question is No - because if every human starts believing in ONE g0d, that doesn't mean that g0d is real.

Inversely, if we find evidence that Zeus exists, then I will start believing in Zeus, and I will be able to prove it, by showing you that evidence. Then my belief in Zeus will be grounded in EVIDENCE. Unlike your current beliefs in whatever g0d it is you picked, which you hold WITHOUT any evidence, that is why you can't prove anything.

Evidence proves things are real. Belief does not. Your parents teaching you that Velius is real isn't evidence or proof of his existence. But actually having Velius in front of you, ripping your arm out, is evidence. It's evidence you can use to prove to other people that he's real.

Here Jon, these are the type of people who annoy me, Arch, Phil, etc... (YT Channel)


People that impose their ideologies and shun others because they (others) respectfully disagree with them are the people that need to stop talking.

It's really hard to do that though cuz it is YT (Free Speech) where users can just ban people in the blink of a second (disable making video responses, making comments of vids and channel).

That SOB YT'er who subscribed to me (for $$) and Arch's previous religion threads and personal experiences at my private school (to name a few) are what "converted" me to atheism. Those things I listed and research have common sense employed into them once you look into detail on the subject. It's really not that hard to see his stance on the matter if you research long and hard for a few weeks on the internet about religion/atheism like I did.

Like Arch Said, the "conversion" (shouldn't even be called that) to atheism doesn't happen overnight or in the span of a day. Just sit back for a sec Jon and take a few weeks to get affiliated with the world of science and what it truly holds in meaning.

Quote from: "Voldemort"

Quote from: "Shade"You asked it you got it.
No. For exalty the same reason as you told me.
You see it works both ways :D, if you were wondering.

Quote from: "Shade"Only true answer is no, since St. Ajora still may not be real at all.
I agreed you at something lawl, btw Jon got tempbanned for thanking St. Ajora for Zodiacs job, instead of thanking him :D

Quote from: "Jon"No! How dare you! Christianity is crap! Athiesm all the way!!!!!!! Christianity is horrible! Bad! Wrong! Now I want to kill a puppy just for you guys mentioning Christianity! Die!

Aren't MadLibs fun? This is a redo of Jon's post in Homeopathy thread.

Quote from: "Voldemort"I didn't understand your post... your posts are hard to read  

I can unterstand like every thing that you guys say 100%

Btw it doesn't help you guys unterstand my writing that it comes from spriting forum were they really did not give about writing format(mostly meaning things like the, a, an are usually missing).

This discussion was really going dandy until Jon said he knows where everything started.

I seriously don't know how to respond to somebody who thinks they know things like that for a fact.

It makes sense now, why he's not open to questioning his beliefs. He isn't open to changing his mind because he thinks he KNOWS the answers to life and death.

Lol The History of This Thread: A month ago Arch posts the topic. We all agree that "The Bitches must DIE". I make a comment about alot of people here being atheist. GS shows up and we have an engaging debate on religion. Jon shows up aND MaGICXAL SKAI WISSARD WILLE SMAIGHT YOO!!!

Quote from: "Voldemort"This discussion was really going dandy until Jon said he knows where everything started.

I seriously don't know how to respond to somebody who thinks they know things like that for a fact.

It makes sense now, why he's not open to questioning his beliefs. He isn't open to changing his mind because he thinks he KNOWS the answers to life and death, that has to be comforting. Delusional, but comforting.

I agreed I liked this talk we had.
Also he is Tempbanned until Till November 19 7:00PM GMT-5:00.
4 fucking days. Damm

@Lourdes healing river:

http://www.skepdic.com/lourdes.html (http://www.skepdic.com/lourdes.html)

Obvious site bias and some of the base links now being 404's aside, and assuming the stats to be true... I'm really not impressed.  

QuoteOver the past 150 years, some 200 million people have made the pilgrimage.* For those who care, that's a success rate of .0000335% or 1 out of every 3 million. Furthermore, since 1947 anyone claiming a miraculous cure has to go before a medical board. "From 1947 to 1990, only 1,000 cures were claimed and only 56 were recognized in that time, averaging 1.3 cures a year, against 57 a year before 1914."* Since 1978, there have been only four recognized cures.

In fact, I've been to Lourdes myself.  The mineral water tastes like ass and I still have dandruff.  

@Miracles themselves:

They're called supernatural for that very reason.  And for all we really know they are signs from a creator.  However, as knowledge technology advances and we are experiencing less and less miracles.  If the only deity to worship is a mere God of Gaps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps), then its not worth of veneration.  My personal favorite miracles are the ones that occur to the various saints.  Saint Denis, for example, after being decapitated, picked up his own head, walked for six miles, and preached a sermon along the entire distance.  That is a badass.  Assuming it to be true, then I have no explanation.  Everything we know of the human body suggests that without lungs a head cannot speak and without a head a body cannot function.  But.

But, for the sake of argument, let us assume it to be true -- that all the miracles as documented in the bible, upon the saints of the roman catholic church, and various less recorded and more word of mouth miracles to be thusly in the true definition of the word.  So what?  Do these miracles give weight to the accuracy and validity of the Bible?  Are these miracles proof of an omnipotent, omniscient, and good deity?  Are these miracles proof that the supernatural being that is manifesting itself the exact same as the supernatural being as spoken of in the holy literature?  Does this awesome deity have a discernable will?    Proof for a supernatural being and proof of a supernatural being with an array of qualities we attribute to it are completely separate ideas.  Anyone making this leap is not thinking in the process of facts and evidence to conclusion, but rather conclusion first and then finding facts to support it.  

In fact, here's the thought process for a random miracle to be evidence of the Judeo-Christian god.  I know I'm repeating myself, but here's the argument:

- Something supernatural occurs like self-resurrection, leviation, walking/talking without a head or lungs, etc
- Therefore, something supernatural exists
- Because something supernatural exists, it must be all powerful, all knowing, and benevolent with a discernible will.  

That is as logicially sound as:

- I see something black, with wings, flying, a beak, some feather, laying eggs, warm blooded, with a spine, etcetccetc
- Therefore, birds exist
- Because this bird exists, it must like long flies along the beach, camping out along that swanky lookout cliff, and has an affinity for playing the harp

It makes no sense whatsoever.  Miracles give just as much credence to Odin/Zeus/whatever the hell naturalish deities Druids like(d) as they do the Judeo Christian Deity.  But certainly the Judeo Christian one exists while the others do not, correct?

Edit:  and now you went and got banned.  Sigh.

@ Phil: You're like the "G" version of TAA but also funny.

I like that .

I hereby dub you "The Scientist".

Gonna go shove food into my face now XD

Toodles.

Quote from: "philsov"@Lourdes healing river:

http://www.skepdic.com/lourdes.html (http://www.skepdic.com/lourdes.html)

Obvious site bias and some of the base links now being 404's aside, and assuming the stats to be true... I'm really not impressed.  

QuoteOver the past 150 years, some 200 million people have made the pilgrimage.* For those who care, that's a success rate of .0000335% or 1 out of every 3 million. Furthermore, since 1947 anyone claiming a miraculous cure has to go before a medical board. "From 1947 to 1990, only 1,000 cures were claimed and only 56 were recognized in that time, averaging 1.3 cures a year, against 57 a year before 1914."* Since 1978, there have been only four recognized cures.

In fact, I've been to Lourdes myself.  The mineral water tastes like ass and I still have dandruff.  

@Miracles themselves:

They're called supernatural for that very reason.  And for all we really know they are signs from a creator.  However, as knowledge technology advances and we are experiencing less and less miracles.  If the only deity to worship is a mere St. Ajora of Gaps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St.%20Ajora), then its not worth of veneration.  My personal favorite miracles are the ones that occur to the various saints.  Saint Denis, for example, after being decapitated, picked up his own head, walked for six miles, and preached a sermon along the entire distance.  That is a badass.  Assuming it to be true, then I have no explanation.  Everything we know of the human body suggests that without lungs a head cannot speak and without a head a body cannot function.  But.

But, for the sake of argument, let us assume it to be true -- that all the miracles as documented in the bible, upon the saints of the roman catholic church, and various less recorded and more word of mouth miracles to be thusly in the true definition of the word.  So what?  Do these miracles give weight to the accuracy and validity of the Bible?  Are these miracles proof of an omnipotent, omniscient, and good deity?  Are these miracles proof that the supernatural being that is manifesting itself the exact same as the supernatural being as spoken of in the holy literature?  Does this awesome deity have a discernable will?    Proof for a supernatural being and proof of a supernatural being with an array of qualities we attribute to it are completely separate ideas.  Anyone making this leap is not thinking in the process of facts and evidence to conclusion, but rather conclusion first and then finding facts to support it.  

In fact, here's the thought process for a random miracle to be evidence of the Judeo-Christian St. Ajora.  I know I'm repeating myself, but here's the argument:

- Something supernatural occurs like self-resurrection, leviation, walking/talking without a head or lungs, etc
- Therefore, something supernatural exists
- Because something supernatural exists, it must be all powerful, all knowing, and benevolent with a discernible will.  

That is as logicially sound as:

- I see something black, with wings, flying, a beak, some feather, laying eggs, warm blooded, with a spine, etcetccetc
- Therefore, birds exist
- Because this bird exists, it must like long flies along the beach, camping out along that swanky lookout cliff, and has an affinity for playing the harp

It makes no sense whatsoever.  Miracles give just as much credence to Odin/Zeus/whatever the hell naturalish deities Druids like(d) as they do the Judeo Christian Deity.  But certainly the Judeo Christian one exists while the others do not, correct?

Edit:  and now you went and got banned.  Sigh.

LOL that's funny, this was meant for Jon I see.

I agree, miracles don't still prove gods existence, they may prove that's some suprenatural, but what it cause exalty would still be unknown.

I guess that this is an epistemologic discussion. Taking Popper philosophy, if god exists it would be a falsifiable reality. It can be put to a test and if in reality the theory works, then is real. Do tou see it? No is not there, the theory is not falsifiable, because the christianism and any other religion or dogmatic ideology tries to transform the reality to adapt it to the theory. In Popper words the theory has to adapt itself to the reality ando you have to put it to the falsification test if you want to turn it into a science.

Therefore, theology is just a way of science that studies the theos of the people. In many ways is just an expression of the collective thought. And for some people, religion is a moral and emotional support.

Unfortunately, religious people are often blinded by the religion itself, is just too sad.

This discussion has to be turned into a legal discussion about abortion, not a pro religion or pro atheism one. Is on the constitutional side and jurisdictional one that we have to see the abortion. Has the people the right to and the freedom to abort? has the woman the right to choose about his body?

the answer is yes. They have the right to choose. I came from a country where all the abortion forms are proibihited, is just a situation that is pretty harmful for the people of my country, illegal abortion is a real problem.

I guess we could talk about it in the other side of the discussion

Quote from: "Jaakl"Unfortunately, religious people are often blinded by the religion itself, is just too sad.

Scientific people are also often blinded by science itself.  The Green movement is a good contemporary example of this imo.  But it's amazing how self-righteous people can be even when they side with science, when most of these people have never tested any of the science they're fed.

Science changes based on what evidence proves is real. If tomorrow evidence surfaced that there's aliens out there, science will accept it. If tomorrow evidence surfaces which proves that Odin made us all, science will accept it.

I just can't understand how you can be blinded that way. It is a simple approach to accepting things as evidence allows. and rejecting them in the same way

Unless you're simply not doing things scientifically and not going by evidence, that is. In which case, yes, I'm sure there's people who have started to believe in scientific principles without evidence behind them.

But don't try to insinuate that science works on faith like religion does.

Anyway, the science works as the human works. Putting a name to the things that we can feel. Is just that. In Nietzsche words, they are metaphores.

And of course god doesn't exist either, is just a emotional support as I said before. But science things are just a convention about the things that we can feel or we can see.

The paradigma an change anytime and we need to have an open mind for the changes of the knowledgment.

Dogmas are useless.

Quote from: "Odal"Wow, The Young Turks videos are being posted here? Oy, I may have to stop visiting here lol. TYT are just a group of confused, emotional, and extreme leftists.

TYT's more to the left politically than right I agree with that, but they're not extremists. They've attacked Senator Chris Dodd of Connecticut, a Democrat who's the Chairman of the Banking Committee here in the USA for bailing out and deregulating the Big Banks on Wall Street (Bank of America, Goldman Sachs, Chase) who stole OUR (the taxpayers) dollars by fucking around with toxic assets in which they created by handing out loans to people with bad credit scores.

QuoteAdvocating the choice to having an abortion is conservative, not liberal. Liberals are the people in the streets who probably want to outlaw the act of abortion. They're the ones who say "We know what's right for everyone, so let's make it law..."

As for your stance on Abortion, I agree on, but your take on the guy's actions in the video and your defs of liberal and conservative are flipped-flopped on their rear ends.

Generally Speaking

Conservative = Someone who's prone to stick to roots of ideology or sentiment or decision for interpretation.
Liberal = Someone who's open to another person's ideology or sentiment or decision for interpretation.

Everyone who's in favor of abortion is open-minded (Liberal) to someone's decision on the matter (Pro-Choice), not closed-minded (Pro-Life) because for the most part the bible said so (Conservative). The argument about whether the fetus is considered a human that has rights is debatable, but that's not what I'll be addressing.

QuoteI have never understood the idea of "I don't like what they're doing, so let me go do the same thing to prove them wrong." And that's exactly what this guy did. He didn't like them protesting, so he objected to it. Really? You're going to get mad that someone is hurting your feelings, so you're going to go out of your way to hurt theirs? Hmm, way to take the moral high ground, buddy!  Dirt slinging

The protesters that the guy and his wife had to face made their trip a living shit and you can't defend that they were there to make those "could've-been-parents" feel bad; They weren't at the clinic to spouse their take on the matter at all.

The fact that there was a good chance the baby was going to die according to that video and the analysis of the clip suggests that you didn't even watch it all the way. And yeah, the guy was completely justified in what he was doing and completely civil when calling them out for what they did. Dude was agitated by those people and challenged their actions. Wouldn't you?

And "Dirt Slinging"... really?

"Baby-Killers... you will burn in hell!". The two ladies were completely fine with saying trash like this, BUT NO.... possible father confronts them on public property on messages like that and they threaten to call the police for harassment.

^ Double Standard at it's best.

Quote from: "Voldemort"Science changes based on what evidence proves is real. If tomorrow evidence surfaced that there's aliens out there, science will accept it. If tomorrow evidence surfaces which proves that Odin made us all, science will accept it.

I just can't understand how you can be blinded that way. It is a simple approach to accepting things as evidence allows. and rejecting them in the same way

You can be blinded by it because you don't know for sure.  Even if they showed live videos of aliens, I can't be sure it'd be enough to convince me.  We know that anything can be put on the screen and look real.

Quote from: "Voldemort"Unless you're simply not doing things scientifically and not going by evidence, that is. In which case, yes, I'm sure there's people who have started to believe in scientific principles without evidence behind them.

Regardless of if there's evidence or not, people are still going to trust that what they hear is true.  I know I do to an extent, because there's no way I can prove most of what I've learned in science myself.

Quote from: "Voldemort"But don't try to insinuate that science works on faith like religion does.

I'm not, but people will still put faith in it like others do with religion.  So how does religion come off as being more wrong than science?  Either way, you're still believing what some other dude is telling you.

@Wizzy: I'm in a hurry and just saw your reply, so I'm typing kind of fast here.  I don't agree with your definition of conservative and liberal (and I dont have time atm for semantics).  But even by your definition, TYT doesn't follow that definition at all.  They're so closed minded because they have THEIR agenda and this is obvious if you watch any of their debates it's not even a debate.  It turns into a shouting match because Cenk Uygur knows he has no substance so all he can do is yell at his opponent like a kid.

Quote from: "Wizzy"The protesters that the guy and his wife had to face made their trip a living shit and you can't defend that they were there to make those "could've-been-parents" feel bad; They weren't at the clinic to spouse their take on the matter at all.

The fact that the there was a good chance the baby was going to die according to that video and the analysis of the clip suggests that you didn't even watch it all the way. And yeah, the guy was completely justified in what he was doing and completely civil when calling them out for what they did. Dude was agitated by those people and challenged their actions. Wouldn't you?

And "Dirt Slinging"... really?

"Baby-Killers... you will burn in hell!". The two ladies were completely fine with saying trash like this, BUT NO.... possible father confronts them on public property on messages like that and they threaten to call the police for harassment.

^ Double Standard at it's best.

Haha.  Well first of all, no one can help it if someone's feelings get hurt, especially when these people were just excercising their freedom.  I have no control over others' feelings.  Does that mean I should have to tip-toe around everywhere I go?  F that.  But that's just my opinion.  Second of all, they threaten to call the police for harassment, which is ironic indeed.  BUT, Maybe HE should've called the police for feeling harassed.  And yes, stooping to the level of your opponent is similar to slinging dirt.  It makes the guy no more honorable than the people he's opposed to.

QuoteThey're so closed minded because they have THEIR agenda and this is obvious if you watch any of their debates it's not even a debate. It turns into a shouting match because Cenk Uygur knows he has no substance so all he can do is yell at his opponent like a kid.

No they don't. They're just calling out bullshit as they see it.

QuoteAnd yes, stooping to the level of your opponent is similar to slinging dirt. It makes the guy no more honorable than the people he's opposed to.

He's not getting even. He asked why they were doing what they did when he came out of the clinic.

OBVIOUSLY they have the right to do what they wish because the the 1st Amendment protects that right to protest, but that DOESN'T mean the hateful messages those idiots spewed are appropriate.

Pointing fingers at people and saying they're going to hell for aborting a baby who'd likely have a shitty life is just asking for confrontation.

QuoteSecond of all, they threaten to call the police for harassment, which is ironic indeed. BUT, Maybe HE should've called the police for feeling harassed.

You're being ridiculous. Whether HE chooses (it is ultimately a choice) to feel bad or not about the matter is irrelevant. Those women CAN protest AND hurt his feelings in the process as long as it's non-violent like you suggested (1st Amendment), but the consensus by most here is that they SHOULDN'T because their actions only incite violence.

Quote from: "Odal"You can be blinded by it because you don't know for sure.  Even if they showed live videos of aliens, I can't be sure it'd be enough to convince me.  We know that anything can be put on the screen and look real. Regardless of if there's evidence or not, people are still going to trust that what they hear is true.  I know I do to an extent, because there's no way I can prove most of what I've learned in science myself.

So how does religion come off as being more wrong than science?  

Actually, the results of scientific experiments are demonstrable and peer-reviewed. Meaning, other scientists must review your evidence and confirm that it is accurate before it is published. If a claim is found by your fellow scientists to be bullshit, your credibility and your career go down the drain, and the claim is rejected.

This is worlds apart from how religion functions - where there's 5,000 different belief systems, cults, and sects each claiming that their own particular view of the world is correct and everything else is wrong, and the claims made in ancient desert holy books are inmutable and cannot be changed in the face of modern evidence. WORLDS APART.

You're right. I don't get to see it with my own eyes. But it's still 1000000x more trustworthy than every religious claim out there.

You're not going to convince me that you haven't been taught these things in school. Seriously, no one's that dumb.

Wizzy, there's not much for me to say except that I disagree with almost every point.

Quote from: "Wizzy"No they don't. They're just calling out bullshit as they see it.

TYT is "calling out bullshit as they see it." while painting everything they don't like red and everything they support as blue.  I guess I could say I'm just "calling out bullshit as I see it" too.

Quote from: "Wizzy"He's not getting even. He asked why they were doing what they did when he came out of the clinic.

Yeah he is.  His feelings were hurt so he's going out of his way to try to hurt theirs (because we both know that it was more than simply asking why they were doing what they were doing).

Quote from: "Wizzy"OBVIOUSLY they have the right to do what they wish because the the 1st Amendment protects that right to protest, but that DOESN'T mean the hateful messages those idiots spewed are appropriate.

Pointing fingers at people and saying they're going to hell for aborting a baby who'd likely have a shitty life is just asking for confrontation.

QuoteSecond of all, they threaten to call the police for harassment, which is ironic indeed. BUT, Maybe HE should've called the police for feeling harassed.

You're being ridiculous. Whether HE chooses (it is ultimately a choice) to feel bad or not about the matter is irrelevant. Those women CAN protest AND hurt his feelings in the process as long as it's non-violent like you suggested (1st Amendment), but the consensus by most here is that they SHOULDN'T because their actions only incite violence.

The rest of your post in this quote is all really just saying the same thing.  The part I underlined is what disturbs me... as if the ones who were excercising their right were the ones to blame if someone else gets violent at them.  Do you also tell women rape victims that they SHOULDN'T have been wearing provocative clothing because it incites rape?

Quote from: "Voldemort"Actually, the results of scientific experiments are demonstrable and peer-reviewed. Meaning, other scientists must review your evidence and confirm that it is accurate before it is published. If a claim is found by your fellow scientists to be bullshit, your credibility and your career go down the drain, and the claim is rejected.

This is worlds apart from how religion functions - where there's 5,000 different belief systems, cults, and sects each claiming that their own particular view of the world is correct and everything else is wrong, and the claims made in ancient desert holy books are inmutable and cannot be changed in the face of modern evidence. WORLDS APART.

I don't disagree with you on any of this.  It just doesn't show me why one is more right to have faith in science than they are to have faith in a religion.  It shows why more people may believe in it, maybe, but not why it's more right.

Quote from: "Voldemort"You're right. I don't get to see it with my own eyes. But it's still 1000000x more trustworthy than every religious claim out there.

So it takes trust, which is another word for faith.  I'm not saying your wrong or right, I just understand that you're going to believe what you want to believe regardless, even if you think you know it for a fact.  Just as religious people... no different.

The fact of the matter is that science functions based on evidence, and religion does not. Don't try to semantics your way out of it, Odal.

There is a tremendous difference between me observing the effects that medicine which has been proven to work in the past has on my sick son and praying to X religious diety and putting "faith" in him being magically healed.

So yes, the process IS very different from religious faith.

Like I said, no one is this dumb.

Quote from: "Odal"TYT is "calling out bullshit as they see it." while painting everything they don't like red and everything they support as blue. I guess I could say I'm just "calling out bullshit as I see it" too.

Still not true. Did you not see this?

Quote from: "Wizzy"TYT's more to the left politically than right I agree with that, but they're not extremists. They've attacked Senator Chris Dodd of Connecticut, a DEMOCRAT who's the Chairman of the Banking Committee here in the USA for bailing out and deregulating the Big Banks on Wall Street (Bank of America, Goldman Sachs, Chase) who stole OUR (the taxpayers) dollars by fucking around with toxic assets in which they created by handing out loans to people with bad credit scores.

As for the part of the quote below in which I put bold marks on.

QuoteYeah he is. His feelings were hurt so he's going out of his way to try to hurt theirs (because we both know that it was more than simply asking why they were doing what they were doing).

You're right, there's more to this ever so uncomfortable confrontation; he videotaped idiots so the world could see the scene and HOW BAD and unreasonable it really was.

Quote... as if the ones who were excercising their right were the ones to blame if someone else gets violent at them. Do you also tell women rape victims that they SHOULDN'T have been wearing provocative clothing because it incites rape?

Yes to question. Fine girls who wear short-cut pants that are rather too short while showing their sexy buns and revealing top is the perfect signal for a rapist to pick her up in the middle of the night. There are A LOT of things which are PERMISSIBLE by law, but that doesn't mean you SHOULD do them.

1. You CAN do it w/o protection (condom, pill, toys) if both (possibly more) members are over 18, but a bad idea and you SHOULDN'T for the possibilities of STD's will greatly increase. Exception being prostitution because it has $$ pumped into business which government CAN'T take from you, so that's why it's illegal.

2. You CAN stick any inanimate object up your ass, but that DOESN'T mean you should do it.

3. You CAN drink out of a sick person's bottle of coke, but that DOESN'T mean you should do it.

And the list is never-ending and just keeps growing.

Again for crystal-clearness:

There are A LOT of things which are PERMISSIBLE by law, but that doesn't mean you SHOULD do them.

Same goes with this ACT these women put on. The guy challenging their actions is not unreasonable and if you can't see that, then you're the one who needs to shove up an inanimate object up your ass.

P.S. Please be sensible from this point forward.

The problem with any religious 'debate' is that there are absolutely no ground rules that either side can agree on.  Using an Atheist and Protestant Christian as an example:

The Atheist will only listen to ideas that have been proven, and information that is reliable.  Something is only considered true to the Atheist if it can be consistently proven.  Circumstantial evidence, no matter how much of it there is, is ignored, as all circumstantial evidence can be justified by the laws of probability.  The Atheist also uses logic, so arguments like, "well you can't disprove it either, so it must be real" are also rejected, as anyone using logic knows that negative proof is impossible.  The Atheist could simply argue that you can't disprove the FSM either, thus he must be real too.

The Protestant Christian on the other hand cites only the most recent English translation their 'holy' book in order to prove everything.  Truth is ignored completely when compared to 'The Truth'.  They have the standpoint of "my version of god is real, thus anything at all that disagrees with my view is wrong".  This, combined with an almost complete lack of knowledge about both the contents and origins of their 'holy' book, leads to extremely ignorant statements about morals, science, politics, and anything else that they can associate with their religion.

The problem with all religions is that the only thing that 'proves' a particular religion is correct, is the book that the religion is based around.  The Bible says the Bible was written by god, thus it must be so.  This is an example of circular logic .  The Bible, which says it was written by god, says that god is all powerful, all knowing and completely righteous in all 'his' actions.  Then goes on to spend pages upon pages describing exactly how to dismember, display, and burn the corpse of an ox in order to please 'him'.  That in and of itself begs the question, "What kind of sick fuck likes to see dead animals dismembered and displayed?"   The only argument for why this is justified is because before jeebus, people had to sacrifice animals to atone for their sins.  This begs another question, "Why would an all powerful, all knowing, and completely righteous deity, one who created all of existence, including the very concept of right and wrong, want people to kill animals in order to atone for the transgressions that this deity decided to declare as 'sinful'?"  'He' supposedly made all the rules, so why such a brutal and downright evil method to atone?  The only response Christians have to that is that was why jeebus was born.  So then, why would an all powerful, all knowing, completely righteous deity create a loop-hole for the rules he created in the first place?  Does the idea of human sacrifice not sound disturbing to any one else?  Why would that please him, or rather, why would he decide that killing the only good person be the proper way of saving the souls of everyone else?  Why should people have to be saved, anyway? Why cant everyone just die when there time is up?

That leads to the discussion about how Christians think that all people are inherently sinful, and that no one is actually worthy of heaven.  I would agree, no one person is worthy enough to live forever in continual paradise.  The problem however, is that even the most horrendous and vile of people do not deserve to go to hell. either.  That is beyond cruel, barbaric, and pure evil.  Even if god appeared before a person and told them exactly what the consequences were, it would still be completely evil on 'his' part to allow that person to make a such a choice.  Yes, free will is NOT the end all be all of excuses.  When people cannot properly be informed about the consequences of their actions, letting them have the 'free will' to make a choice is a cop-out, and not at all fair to that person.  

To give an example, say, when my son turns five he wants to play with a firearm, he knows that guns can kill people and says he will be safe, but does he really comprehend EVERYTHING that death entails? No, of course not, he does not have a proper concept of death, or danger, or the risk involved, even though he would tell you that guns are dangerous and could kill you.  I of course would take away his free will in this situation, as it would be better for him to not make a choice about something that he cannot fully comprehend.

Now, applying that example to this part of the discussion:  Can you really comprehend infinity? Can you really imagine infinite pain and suffering?  No, of course you can't.  Whatever you imagine would be infinitely worse, as that is the nature of infinity.  No one could ever properly understand the consequences of this choice, thus any deity that actually allows the choice to be made is beyond cruel, and evil.  Then again, how could a finite existence on earth ever warrant infinite pain in hell?

Wow, that ended up being really long, and I only covered about 5% or what I wanted to.

TL;DR: Just read it, if you want to comment on it.

@Arch, I'm not feeding into it anymore.  I'm sure you're intelligent enough to understand it if you try, but I'm not going to reiterate the same point over and over.

Quote from: "Wizzy"

QuoteYeah he is. His feelings were hurt so he's going out of his way to try to hurt theirs (because we both know that it was more than simply asking why they were doing what they were doing).

You're right, there's more to this ever so uncomfortable confrontation; he videotaped idiots so the world could see the scene and HOW BAD and unreasonable it really was.

Quote... as if the ones who were excercising their right were the ones to blame if someone else gets violent at them. Do you also tell women rape victims that they SHOULDN'T have been wearing provocative clothing because it incites rape?

Yes to question. Fine girls who wear short-cut pants that are rather too short while showing their sexy buns and revealing top is the perfect signal for a rapist to pick her up in the middle of the night. There are A LOT of things which are PERMISSIBLE by law, but that doesn't mean you SHOULD do them.

1. You CAN do it w/o protection (condom, pill, toys) if both (possibly more) members are over 18, but a bad idea and you SHOULDN'T for the possibilities of STD's will greatly increase. Exception being prostitution because it has $$ pumped into business which government CAN'T take from you, so that's why it's illegal.

2. You CAN stick any inanimate object up your ass, but that DOESN'T mean you should do it.

spoiler: 1:20:99e6twpz

3. You CAN drink out of a sick person's bottle of coke, but that DOESN'T mean you should do it.

And the list is never-ending and just keeps growing.

Again for crystal-clearness:

There are A LOT of things which are PERMISSIBLE by law, but that doesn't mean you SHOULD do them.

Same goes with this ACT these women put on. The guy challenging their actions is not unreasonable and if you can't see that, then you're the one who needs to shove up an inanimate object out your ass.

P.S. Please be sensible from this point forward.

Be sensible?  Take your own advice?  You're talking about being hostile towards people who are excercising their rights.  You do not educate people by yelling at them.  Maybe just take a step back, realize that everyone is flawed, including yourself, and work to improve yourself, instead of trying to improve everyone else.  You'll realize that people will react better when you're not telling them what to do.  Friends will ask you for advice.  People will learn from you if you are a good example of what they want to be.  And to be honest, discussions like this will rarely ever lead to convincing others of your point of view, but I guess at least someone needs to say it so that you know it exists.  School can help somewhat, but the kind of learning we're talking about is largely not done in school.  A lot of it is common sense, but these days a child is just thrown in front of the TV-sitter and never really learns outside of school and TV screens.

I guess my point is: this guy did nothing to educate anyone, nor anyone who would be against abortion and see the video.  All he did was act as a child and show it to the world.  It didn't accomplish anything except maybe make himself(and I guess others who agree with him) feel better.  Retribution cannot create progress, it only fulfills justice.  If humanity ever wants to evolve we need to realize this.

^ Pro lifer

Quote from: "Kill_Bones"^ Pro lifer

Actually, in his spoiler he indicates that he's pro-choice.

Quote from: "Odal"Be sensible? Take your own advice? You're talking about being hostile towards people who are excercising their rights.

I don't have issues when it comes to the rights of those women and the guy, but rather whether his mannerisms were appropriate or not (i.e. raising his voice).

You say the projection of his message isn't reasonable while I think just the opposite of that.

If someone or a group of people told me that I was committing an act with only evil intentions in mind, when in reality I'm making an incredibly tough decision with my wife about our could've been son/daughter who likely would've died yeah I'd be pissed and TRY to grasp AS CALMY AS POSSIBLE why they are trying to make me and the rest of my family feel worse about ourselves.

The rest I'm not responding to because it deals with ethics as a whole, being a topic that nobody truthfully needs a lecture on. Like I've said before, I'm not trying to win a popularity contest and get the most-liked award. Just doing my job and pointing out flawed reasoning as I see it.

Odal, let's just agree to disagree that some think he took it over the top and others not at all. Fair assessment?

Okay, I guess all I'll conclude/summarize: While I agree with the guy about abortion (yes, the troll was wrong, I am definitely not a pro-lifer), I don't agree with his method of handling the problem.

But yeah, I agree to disagree and all that good stuff.

Yeah some hillbilly motherfuckers were basically calling his wife evil at the worst moment of her life, so let's get up-in-arms about HIS attitude. Are you fucking retarded or something?

Odal:

The reasons why it is "more right" to place your trust in science rather than religion are all around you, and you can verify those reasons with your own senses, without having to trust or put faith in what anyone else tells you.

The computer you're on, the appliances in your house, the medicine in your cabinet, the (preserved) food in your fridge that won't rot in 1 week, the hospital you were born in, the game we are hacking, the microwave you use to make Ramen, the airplane you use to visit grandma, the car you drive, the celphone you own, the softwate we use to run AI tournaments. 

All of these and more are the result of scientific processes, and knowledge gathered through evidence, and not people putting faith in g0d. More importantly, they are verifiable, demonstrable evidence that those processes work, and that the observations and evidence used to make them are correct. More correct and real than any fucking religion.

It's undeniable, unless you close your eyes and pretend that every technology and advantage that science has ever given us doesn't exist, or if you belong to some cult (read: religion) that somehow fooled you into thinking that Zeus gave us all of it.

Anyone who thinks science requires faith or even remotely compares it to religion is trying to argue with the very reality that surrounds them and makes their daily life possible. (Especially that morning ride in the car to work!)

Very low and intellectually dishonest of you to even try and put them on a similar level. My opinion of you is diminished.

Quote from: "Asmo X"Yeah some hillbilly motherfuckers were basically calling his wife evil at the worst moment of her life, so let's get up-in-arms about HIS attitude. Are you fucking retarded or something?

Posts like these are why Asmo deserves his own holiday. 100% agreed with it and it made me laugh.

Voldemort were you athiest before or after it was cool?

Quote from: "captain religion"If humanity ever wants to evolve we need to realize this.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pbV9QqddqnE/S7S6vCd8mAI/AAAAAAAABeY/sP0RW5UB5m8/s1600/irony2.jpg)

america is one nation under G.O.D umad?

QuoteVoldemort were you athiest before or after it was cool?

I wasn't aware that being an atheist ever was, is, or ever will be considered "cool". Nice attempt at trying to peg me for someone who is simply an atheist because it's the "in" thing to be, though. I think my posts make it damn clear that this is a subject which I have studied greatly, and agnostic atheism is a position I hold for very strong reasons.

I greatly dislike how you totally dismiss all the information in this thread and think it's OK and appropriate to reply with shitty 1 liner posts without any constructive or productive purpose except to act like an asshole and make insinuations.


About your other post:
The United States was founded on completely secular principles, with a major emphasis on freedom FROM religion and a separation of church and state.

Have you actually ever READ the constitution?

You ignorant?

PS: Stop 1 line trolling my thread, this isn't spam. It's pretty clear that you are just blank troll posting to bait people with your uninformed comments.

 There's rules on FFH now, follow them.

Lol, and the trolls come out of the woodworks.

@Voldemort, I already dropped it and you're basically trolling at this point too.  

You win.  

There...  Is that what you want?  

I really don't care about your opinion of me.  Some dude somewhere on some forum boards has a lower opinion of me?  What am I ever going to do?  

Voldemort eat some chill pills. You said you haven't trolled since your boo hoo poor me letter to all, but right now I can see about 3 examples on the previous page alone. Chill. And don't call me delusional! I don't care if you think I'm ignorant, but now you have made me angry! I'm sane, I am not seeing things or talking to little pink squirrels! I am not delusional! Also, I rewatched the video posted way back on page one, and came to realize something that Wizzy pointed out with a video, I believe (I may be wrong here) that you guys don't just hate believing people in general, you hate the same people that we do, the fanatics. I am not a fanatic. I would never ever strap a i.e.d. on myself to kill others, or stand in front of a clinic yelling at people. Please don't think I am fanatic just because I believe in G0d and Jesus. I have nothing more to say at this time besides this because this topic has gotten way off of the subject of abortion.

QuoteYou said you haven't trolled since your boo hoo poor me letter to all, but right now I can see about 3 examples on the previous page alone. Chill. And don't call me delusional! I don't care if you think I'm ignorant, but now you have made me angry!

Name them. (PS: You have a seriously flawed understanding of what an internet troll actually is if you think I've been trolling in this thread, Jon)

QuotePlease don't think I am fanatic just because I believe in G0d and Jesus. I have nothing more to say at this time besides this because this topic has gotten way off of the subject of abortion.

I don't think you are a fanatic because you believe in g0d and jesus.

I think you are a fanatic if your religion causes you to ignore real world evidence that might contradict it.

Quote@Voldemort, I already dropped it and you're basically trolling at this point

Wtf? This is another classic example of: "Shit. Now I have spend time thinking to address his points, so I'll just call him a troll and ignore him" than to admit that someone is seriously debating your opinion. Calling someone a troll at this point in the discussion (when it's so obvious that I've seriously gotten into it, and not just in it to troll which is something I can do with 1 word or sentence instead of actual posts; See: General Strife) is even more dishonest of you.


If you think this is a troll post, you wouldn't know a serious post if it hit you in the head:

Odal:

The reasons why it is "more right" to place your trust in science rather than religion are all around you, and you can verify those reasons with your own senses, without having to trust or put faith in what anyone else tells you.

The computer you're on, the appliances in your house, the medicine in your cabinet, the (preserved) food in your fridge that won't rot in 1 week, the hospital you were born in, the game we are hacking, the microwave you use to make Ramen, the airplane you use to visit grandma, the car you drive, the celphone you own, the softwate we use to run AI tournaments.

All of these and more are the result of scientific processes, and knowledge gathered through evidence, and not people putting faith in g0d. More importantly, they are verifiable, demonstrable evidence that those processes work, and that the observations and evidence used to make them are correct. More correct and real than any fucking religion.

It's undeniable, unless you close your eyes and pretend that every technology and advantage that science has ever given us doesn't exist, or if you belong to some cult (read: religion) that somehow fooled you into thinking that Zeus gave us all of it.

Anyone who thinks science requires faith or even remotely compares it to religion is trying to argue with the very reality that surrounds them and makes their daily life possible. (Especially that morning ride in the car to work!)

Very low and intellectually dishonest of you to even try and put them on a similar level. My opinion of you is diminished.

Quote from: "Jon"I know where we came from, we were all created by G0d, and one day, at the end of our lives we will return back to him.

Also I'm still waiting on your answer to my question:

How do you know this?

You read it somewhere? Somebody told you? It says it in some holy book?

That's really honest, Jon. Way to be honest with yourself.

Thinking you have the answers to life itself is arrogant, ignorant, and delusional, Jon.

You claim to know (the answer to life and death) as fact and then you go off about being HONEST with ourselves? hahahahaha

Alright, obviously this is going to take more time again to explain why I believe what I wrote. Do I have to go about proving that there was a man born roughly between 0-3 AD in a village called Bethlehem called Jesus? If you need hard evidence on this the first step is obviously to read the Bible, then there is a book which was recently translated from old Hebrew called the Dead Sea Scrolls, go read that. It is a 100% fact that Jesus existed, but whether you consider Jesus the savior or not is your business, therefore that is not a fact. I just believe what he said. I still don't see how this is delusional. I am and was completely sane when I wrote/am writing things like your quote on me. I mean lets put it in facts then since atheists love facts over "faith and belief":

Fact: There was a man born in Bethlehem called Jesus. At the time, the King, Herod, decided to wipe out this "potential" savior by exterminating all the new born babies, but failed because they escaped to Egypt.

Not a fact: Jesus did miracles and wonderous things that no one can explain (at least not through science, therefore atheists love to say "prove it")

Fact: Jesus had 12 followers who followed him around as he preached to the masses.

Not a fact: The 12 followers believed what Jesus said and recorded everything he said (that is a fact, but the not a fact here is what Jesus said, again atheists decide not to believe his words)

Fact: Jesus was killed because the High Priest and some priests at the time were more or less jealous of Jesus and wanted to get rid of him asap.

Not a fact: Jesus rose from the dead after 3 days and reappeared to his disciples(again atheists will say "prove it")

Fact: Strangely enough, these now 11 disciples (Judas killed himself) who were mainly made up of simple fishermen suddenly decided to go out and preach, and the Catholic church was founded. Now every normal man who would have been following Jesus around would have turned tail and went home after he was crusified out of fear for his own life. Why in the world would they risk their lives in foreign countries and actually some got killed for it if they knew that this all was some sort of big joke? This is one big reason why I believe in G0d and Jesus, because the disciples did not go home to their wives and children but continued. They continued because they believed. So, now do you see Voldemort why I am not "delusional", or are you going to quote me again out of context in order to make poor attempts at making me look stupid? I was being honest with myself, and I am not delusional. You can say I am ignorant to some things, its true, I don't know everything about every religion like you pretend you do, and I am in real life actually quite humble, never arrogant, I would never ever do things like the 2 ladies in the video nor like I said blow myself up or anything else that would harm others. I want to live and act like a Christian, and all those who destroy things in G0d's name are not acting Christian.

I never said that believing that Jesus (the man) existed is delusional.

I said that claiming to know where we all come from (and where we are going) is, like you did in that post.

You said: "I KNOW" that we were created by g0d.

It is a delusional and ignorant statement to make because you (nor anyone) knows how it all started.

QuoteAlso I'm still waiting on your answer to my questions

Likewise.

QuoteI believe (I may be wrong here) that you guys don't just hate believing people in general, you hate the same people that we do, the fanatics.

Fanatics and zealots more or less perform immoral actions and contradict their own belief system in doing so, making them hypocrites and thus "Christian" or "Islamic" or whatever in name only. But! I also hate people who stick their heads in the sand and go "There's no way I'm changing my outlook, there's no point in talking to me about it" anytime their belief system is questioned -- because they're not ignorant, but stupid. And I hate stupid people.

It's not some black or white hate the fanatics, love the rest of em. It's a massive grey area. For example, a tolerant, forgiving, and moral Christian I like. Because he's tolerant, forgiving, and moral.

Fine Voldemort, I see your point. Thats fine, I just said I know (in the point of view of a believer) that we were all created by G0d, whether you accept this or not is your choice. I think it would be hard to prove because you don't see it from my point of view. If you were a believer, then maybe I could explain something like that to you but you being an atheist wanting only facts, I won't. It would be too overwhelming first to attempt to get you to believe my beliefs, and also like Philsov said "people who stick their heads in the sand" just don't want to change. I don't want to and am not willing to change (this doesn't mean that I won't try to give explanations to your questions) but I am open in a sense and tolerate your belief as an atheist, just like you probably in real life like Philsov said again, like the "tolerant, forgiving and moral" Christians and tolerate me. So you will never get an explaination to that, sorry. But if you have questions like why does G0d do this or why is that a rule (or sin, etc.) I can make an attempt like always. I hope that you weren't trying to refer me as stupid Philsov, I am probably educated to the same level as you guys. I just believe what I do and you believe what you do. Its that simple.

Quote from: "Jon"Fact: Strangely enough, these now 11 disciples (Judas killed himself) who were mainly made up of simple fishermen suddenly decided to go out and preach, and the Catholic church was founded. Now every normal man who would have been following Jesus around would have turned tail and went home after he was crusified out of fear for his own life. Why in the world would they risk their lives in foreign countries and actually some got killed for it if they knew that this all was some sort of big joke? .

Human behaviour is complex and multi-faceted. If you think that the words of a self-purported saviour must be true because people decided to follow him at great risk to themselves, I'm afraid I will have to direct your attention to the entirety of human history. There are thousands of examples of people wandering off on misguided adventures at the behest of propaganda or a charismatic leader.

QuoteI think it would be hard to prove because you don't see it from my point of view.

Of course.  When having the conclusion already made and find then evidence to support it and dismiss evidence to the contrary, it's difficult to prove anything.

QuoteI am probably educated to the same level as you guys. I just believe what I do and you believe what you do. Its that simple.

Sorry, it's not that simple.  At one point Arch and I both just believed as you do.  So stop this trite stuff of never changing, because we are examples of change.  And more importantly we're both willing to change as new evidence and arguments come to light.  You and I are nothing alike.

QuoteBut if you have questions like why does G0d do this or why is that a rule (or sin, etc.) I can make an attempt like always.

I was about to wind up on your "I believe because some other people believed" statement, but this is more fitting I suppose.

How does Jesus' existence prove an all-powerful, all-knowing, and benevolent creator?  Why was Jesus' existence necessary?

ps - wb

QuoteHow does Jesus' existence prove an all-powerful, all-knowing, and benevolent creator? Why was Jesus' existence necessary?

Well if you once were a believer, you probably already know the answer to this question. First because of the predictions. The whole old testament was filled with them. If G0d didn't send a messiah as he promised, then already something would be totally off. Second, the people at the time were failing to see and understand G0d's message and true intention. A hand full of priests and high priests would more or less rule the people, and believed that they more or less were the ones who decided who goes to heaven and who doesn't, who was good and who was evil, who lived and who would (like Jesus) die. Very similar to those people out on the streets shouting, right? His existence was necessary to point us all back onto the correct path, that life is a search for enlightenment and salvation, not to shout at others and make judgemental (snap) decisions. Does this answer your question?

Also, thanks, I feel back. I discovered that my enjoyment on this site comes not from creating sprites but from helping others by making tutorials. Maybe I should stick to that...

Is it possible that someone read the Old Testament and decided to position himself as a messiah? I mean, I could believe that, or I could believe that some space wizard sent a guy to die on a cross, which seems like an abstract solution to the problems of the time.

Quote from: "Jon"Well if you once were a believer, you probably already know the answer to this question. First because of the predictions. The whole old testament was filled with them. If G0d didn't send a messiah as he promised, then already something would be totally off.

Expect Jews still believe that g[s:2egoxhab][/s:2egoxhab]od hasn't sent a messiah yet and are still waiting.

QuoteWell if you once were a believer, you probably already know the answer to this question.

Its one of the reasons I'm not, actually, but I'll expand on that in a moment.

QuoteSecond, the people at the time were failing to see and understand G0d's message and true intention.

Possibly, but a worldwide flood can do that as well  In fact....

Quote"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them" (Genesis 6:5-7, KJV,

This is not the result of an all-knowing Deity.  It just flat out is not.

QuoteFirst because of the predictions. The whole old testament was filled with them. If G0d didn't send a messiah as he promised, then already something would be totally off.

But why was a messiah necessary?  It wasn't.  An all powerful deity can just snap his mystical fingers and fix everything.  Instantly.  No need to cause your own child to die, quite horribly, at the hand of your other creations in order to fulfill your own prophecy and absolve sin, which you also created.   If that's "just how people are" its because we were made that way.  These are the actions of neither an all-powerful nor a benevolent being.

Again -- evidence to conclusion.

Jon, you keep making the mistake of telling us atheists "that we will continue to BELIEVE what we want"-

Remember, atheism isn't a belief system. We hold no religious beliefs. We LACK them. (We reject religious beliefs, usually on the grounds that there is no evidence to support them.)

Just a reminder, because you keep making the same mistake.

Quote from: "Voldemort"Jon, you keep making the mistake of telling us atheists "that we will continue to BELIEVE what we want"-

Remember, atheism isn't a belief system. We hold no religious beliefs. We LACK them. (We reject religious beliefs, usually on the grounds that there is no evidence to support them.)

Just a reminder, because you keep making the same mistake.

Nope Arch.

Quote from: "Wikipedia"Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.

As you said Atheism isn't belief system, but there are religions that don't believe in god.
Example Jainism doesn't have god so all believers of it are Atheists.
Don't say that Atheists hold no religious beliefs, cause some do.

Ps. Jon got Banhammered AGAIN!

jon got pwned by the hammer

Shade: We're saying exactly the same thing.

Quote from: "Voldemort"Shade: We're saying exactly the same thing.

Almost I am saying that atheists do hold religious beliefs, unless they have to do something with deity(usually god or something).

Oh ok. I was trying to say that the atheists in this thread hold no belief in religious claims, whether they have to do with dieties not.

Quote from: "Voldemort"Oh ok. I was trying to say that the atheists in this thread hold no belief in religious claims, whether they have to do with dieties or not.

oh ok.

Isn't it stupid that Jon is getting pwaned by Zodiac too much so he can't post, again.

he is perma'd shade gone forever

Guess it was just *Puts on shades* HAMMAH time!

Why was he banned this time?

Quote from: "Voldemort"Why was he banned this time?

He called zodiac "it" -_-

I just spent hours reading this whole thread and watching all the links videos and perusing the wiki links, etc.

Wow. Just wow. I am astounded by some of the content here. Almost every reason I don't mix well with religious people is displayed here in its *finest* form.

But I think Asmo's post on page 10 wins this whole thread.

Quote from: "Jon"

QuoteHow does Jesus' existence prove an all-powerful, all-knowing, and benevolent creator? Why was Jesus' existence necessary?

Well if you once were a believer, you probably already know the answer to this question. First because of the predictions. The whole old testament was filled with them. If G0d didn't send a messiah as he promised, then already something would be totally off. Second, the people at the time were failing to see and understand G0d's message and true intention. A hand full of priests and high priests would more or less rule the people, and believed that they more or less were the ones who decided who goes to heaven and who doesn't, who was good and who was evil, who lived and who would (like Jesus) die. Very similar to those people out on the streets shouting, right? His existence was necessary to point us all back onto the correct path, that life is a search for enlightenment and salvation, not to shout at others and make judgemental (snap) decisions. Does this answer your question?

Also, thanks, I feel back. I discovered that my enjoyment on this site comes not from creating sprites but from helping others by making tutorials. Maybe I should stick to that...

epic new avatar for zod?

Too bad he is banned now. No more enjoyment...

Live a Evil?

Remake of Live a Live or did a mistranslation occur?

Btw, I am too lazy to read this whole topic. What is all this about? Can anyone explain?

The sad part is, probably only Zodiac, Phil, and myself know what game that's from.

I don't know from what game this is for sure. Can you tell me?

Quote from: "Kagebunji"Btw, I am too lazy to read this whole topic. What is all this about? Can anyone explain?

Sure, was initially about vid on 1st post, but shortly afterwards people started sharing personal stories which lead to a ginormous religious debate (primarily between Jon and Arch) then I confronted Odal on his comments about abortion vid which Asmo concluded  w/ his epic comment and then it went to religion again.

TL;DR

Abortion>Personal Stories>Religion>Abortion>Religion>Jon Banned.

Quote from: "Celdia"But I think Asmo's post on page 10 wins this whole thread. :|

Quote from: "Kagebunji"I don't know from what game this is for sure. Can you tell me?

Live a Live.

SNES RPG with a semi-tactical battle system -- never made it stateside but it was fan-translated back in 01 or something.

Anyways, there's a mega man-like selection screen, where you then pick and play through various scenarios each with a hero and some supporting characters -- ranging from stone age (above) to ninjas to wrestlers to medieval to cyborgs to robots, and then there's some karate and westerner stuff along the way too.  I think that's all of them... After you play all these scenarios they're all fully tied together, each of the heroes meet each other, and you take out the major bad guy.

The future/robot scenario is an awesome story.  Plus there's loads of little easter egg perks, like if you never get in a battle as the ninja you unlock some awesome equipment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_A_Live (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_A_Live)

QuoteAbortion>Personal Stories>Religion>Abortion>Religion>Jon Banned>Awesome SNES game

Live a EVIL is definitely something I'd play

I'm reading this awesome book, "god is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything, by Christopher Hitchens".

Here's a quote.  "Nothing optional - from homosexuality to adultery - is ever made punishable unless those who do the prohibiting (and exact the fierce punishments) have a repressed desire to participate."

This is the book we need to pass out on street corners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Is_Not_Great (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Is_Not_Great)
^Arch, you will fucking love this.

Huh? You can just write the article. If you mean that I will fucking love that Wikipedia has no article for St. Ajora, ok I guess. There's nothing wrong with them having an article on g0d. G0d is a human concept, just like Minotaurs and Battle Star Galactica. There's nothing wrong with defining concepts.

And yeah Hitchens is a hero (a hero who is, ironically, an heroing as we speak)

The wikipedia article had the G word in it, and got fucked.

Oh

yeah

I haven't read it, but I am familiar with other stuff by Hitchens

(http://izismile.com/img/img3/20100831/640/daily_picdump_478_640_high_35.jpg)

That's great, philsov. I, too, want a sandwich.

Celdia, where's your avatar from?

And is dome banned again, or is he not unbanned yet?

It'd be Terra, probably from Dissidia or a fanart.

bump!

And in more atheist news:

Tis the season... ?

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/11/29/article-1334040-0C4782D1000005DC-303_468x286.jpg)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... unnel.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1334040/You-know-myth-Atheist-banner-causes-storm-entrance-New-York-tunnel.html)

edit:

The catholics respond!!!

(http://media.northjersey.com/images/300*231/MC_1201L_JESUSBOARD.jpg)

Battle of the Billboards, eh?

WHO'LL WIN!? FIND OUT NEXT TIME ON BATTLE OF THE BILLBOARDS!

...actually, I've seen ads like that on the buses in the city lately. It's been pretty controversial.

That's pretty silly. What a waste of money on something that will only piss people off.

wow, glad this got bumped. That video at the beginning rocks! Don't get me wrong, I'm against abortion ill all circumstances excluding rape, incest, and health issues to mother or child, but those stupid protesters got word raped!

And both the above ads are stupid.

Yup.

The christians didn't rhyme so we win.

Yes, but they also used caps too much.

Much... like your post.

Atheist poster used too many whole words as caps - point Catholics
Atheist poster rhymed - point Atheists
Both of Their Billboards Are Typed Like This - nobody scores

EDITBUTTON= -1 point for christians +1 for atheist. Anyway, I really feel this should be locked or moved to spam. Religous debates always spawn hatred, from BOTH sides. My final attack(well, in this thread) on christian extremists (only aimed at extremists, I'm cool with sensible christians): Out of the numerous religions, you're 100% sure yours is right? Puhhh-leeeaaase.

I agree, extremists, both religious and atheistic, are idiots. Both tend to spout fallacy riddled arguments that have been around for hundreds of years. Politics are the same way.

I'm a double major in political science and philosophy, and am always happy to have intelligent discussion of religion and/or politics with others, as long as ppl keep it civil.

Abortion has been around for thousands of years, there were times when it was VASTLY more dangerous than it is now and more common as well, unborn fetuses are not some sort of sacred gift, life is not some sort of sacred gift, the miracle of existence is it's limited capacity to persist, the only thing that makes life sacred is that we have only so much time to live it, and in that time we have the right and power to live it in any ways we see fit. Life is little more than an accident, not at all random however seemingly so, billions and trillions of atoms working together to do something greater with their existence with no notable consciousness but a continued drive to evolve. Early xtians in the roman empire saw no sacredness to life, where babies born defective were discarded due to the fact that their strain on society would be greater than their benefits to culture or development, in today's society we conserve any life that we can, being mentally or physically challenged is no longer a death sentence and for that much we should be grateful, let's not forget that these aborted fetuses in several cases go to the furthering of stem cell research, a scientific path that promises to one day cure some of the most violently destructive diseases known to man.

My daughter has an extremely rare and complex genetic disorder, and I love her more than anything in the world, and if someone else who doesn't want their child is going to allow that child to do something great for the world with it's cells, then I thank them, Stem cell research is one of the most likely places they may find a cure for several genetic disorders like MTFPD (mitochondrial trifunctional protein defficiency) so I thank those brave women who face off against protesters and right wing crazies, thanks to them my daughter might be able to one day lead a normal life.

I am a proud parent and I am pro-choice. My wife and I weighed our options and decided to have our daughter, and the fact that we had the power to make that decision made our choosing to have our daughter so much more special. St. Ajora can suck it, historically speaking, this is the source of more deaths both infant and adult than any other cause.

[Edit] I should add that while I am an atheist, I don't think religion is a bad thing, having faith and hope gets you through the dark times, but using it as a weapon to frighten people into doing things your way is wrong, no matter what religion you subscribe to, I believe strictly in the power of science, but I know lots of people who find a great deal of strength in their faith, and for them I am happy, though I do not agree with the stories of their religion, I know from personal experience that faith in something, whether true or false, is a great power. It can be good or evil, it's all about how you wield the power of your faith. These women are using their faith as a weapon of fear and guilt, no matter where you stand on the abortion issue, it's wrong to do this to people.

Quote from: "Zuka"Abortion has been around for thousands of years, there were times when it was VASTLY more dangerous than it is now and more common as well, unborn fetuses are not some sort of sacred gift, life is not some sort of sacred gift, the miracle of existence is it's limited capacity to persist, the only thing that makes life sacred is that we have only so much time to live it, and in that time we have the right and power to live it in any ways we see fit. Life is little more than an accident, not at all random however seemingly so, billions and trillions of atoms working together to do something greater with their existence with no notable consciousness but a continued drive to evolve. Early xtians in the roman empire saw no sacredness to life, where babies born defective were discarded due to the fact that their strain on society would be greater than their benefits to culture or development, in today's society we conserve any life that we can, being mentally or physically challenged is no longer a death sentence and for that much we should be grateful, let's not forget that these aborted fetuses in several cases go to the furthering of stem cell research, a scientific path that promises to one day cure some of the most violently destructive diseases known to man.

My daughter has an extremely rare and complex genetic disorder, and I love her more than anything in the world, and if someone else who doesn't want their child is going to allow that child to do something great for the world with it's cells, then I thank them, Stem cell research is one of the most likely places they may find a cure for several genetic disorders like MTFPD (mitochondrial trifunctional protein defficiency) so I thank those brave women who face off against protesters and right wing crazies, thanks to them my daughter might be able to one day lead a normal life.

I am a proud parent and I am pro-choice. My wife and I weighed our options and decided to have our daughter, and the fact that we had the power to make that decision made our choosing to have our daughter so much more special. St. Ajora can suck it, historically speaking, this is the source of more deaths both infant and adult than any other cause.

[Edit] I should add that while I am an atheist, I don't think religion is a bad thing, having faith and hope gets you through the dark times, but using it as a weapon to frighten people into doing things your way is wrong, no matter what religion you subscribe to, I believe strictly in the power of science, but I know lots of people who find a great deal of strength in their faith, and for them I am happy, though I do not agree with the stories of their religion, I know from personal experience that faith in something, whether true or false, is a great power. It can be good or evil, it's all about how you wield the power of your faith. These women are using their faith as a weapon of fear and guilt, no matter where you stand on the abortion issue, it's wrong to do this to people.

Words cannot express how much I agree with this post, particularly your edit. More people need to have the mindset that you have.

"If we must not act save on a certainty, we ought not to act on religion, for it is not certain. But how many things we do on an uncertainty, sea voyages, battles!"
---Blaise Pascal

I am also totally against abortion unless the baby has no chance of survival, but I feel that shouting at people will never get your point across.

More random funsies.

For a visual representation of an answer to Jon's question:

http://whathappensafteridie.com/