Final Fantasy Hacktics

Hasn't been updated in a while.

I've decided to post this, and I actually want the changes to be brutally massacred to dust. I want to help make this the best a.i. tourney patch it can be whilst staying true to FFT. Any recommendations are good; I will swallow my pride and make changes if I feel they are actually justified.

Changelist:

ASM:
Uses Final Fantasy ASM'd as a base. (See this thread (http://ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=3953) for more information)

• ASM'd growths implemented, EXCEPT Speed.
• Jump increase to 3/2 still requires Spears.
• Axes get new formula ([(0 + (1..PA)) + PA] * WP); Flails retain 1.3 formula ([WP] * WP)
• "Equip X" is unchanged. (No Equip Crossbow+Bow, for instance)
• 1.3 Sage class is used.
• If possible, Two-Hands hacked to only increase WP by 50%; otherwise, Samurai lose innate Two-Hands.
• Thieves lose innate Concentrate. Instead, they gain Vanish: 1 CTR, Self-inflicted Transparent.
• Bulldemon family gains Counter reaction, since Caution is now innate to all monsters.
• Other ASM'd skillset changes and new abilities are PENDING. (These need to be discussed for competitive purposes)

Fury Hack is also inputted at Brave+40% damage done and taken.

Jobs:
Thieves/Ninjas lose 1 Speed.
Mime is allowed with average PA/MA. (Only one mime per team)

Items:

Daggers
Daggers DO lose +1 Speed (Again...)
Orichalcum is 9 WP, 5% W-EV, +2 MA
Assassin Dagger is 12 WP, 5% W-EV, 25% Poison
Air Knife is 11 WP, 5% W-EV, Wind-elemental, 25% Sleep

Ninja Swords
Hidden Knife is 7 WP, 0% W-EV, Initial: Transparent (it sucks, but whatev)
Spell Edge is 12 WP, 10% W-EV, 25% Don't Move
Iga Knife is 11 WP, 15% W-EV, Wind-elemental; Boost: Earth
Koga Knife is 11 WP, 15% W-EV, Earth-elemental; Boost: Wind

Swords
All swords have 10% W-EV
Ancient Sword is 14 WP, 25% Don't Move
Ice Brand is 13 WP, Ice-elemental
Rune Blade is 11 WP, +2 MA
Blood Sword is 10 WP, Absorbs Damage as HP (Undead reversal, Not usable with Two-Swords)

Knight Swords
Defender is 18 WP, 30% W-EV, Cancel: Don't Move, Don't Act
Save the Queen is 16 WP, 25% W-EV, Always: Protect

Katanas
(This is actually pending, and I'm looking for some really good ideas on what to do with them)
Murasame is 12 WP, 20 W-EV, +1 MA, Water-elemental, Restores HP
Heaven's Cloud is 13 WP, 20 W-EV, +1 PA, Wind-elemental
Kikuichimonji is 16 WP, 20 W-EV, 25% Silence

Axes
Axes are now 1-handed, but cannot be used with two-swords or two-hands.
Giant Axe is 7 WP, 25% W-EV, Earth-elemental, Boost: Earth, Wind, Water (note: no Axe proc)
Slasher 12 WP, 30% W-EV, 25% Decapitate

Rods
Thunder/Flame/Ice Rod are 4 WP, 5% W-EV, 25% Bolt/Fire/Ice2
Poison Rod is 8 WP, 5% W-EV, 100% Poison
Wizard Rod is 4 WP, 5% W-EV, +2 MA
Faith Rod is 4 WP, 20% W-EV, Always: Faith, 25% Faith

Staves
Healing Staff is 8 WP, 10% W-EV, Restore HP, Boost: Holy (note: NOT holy-elemental)
Wizard Staff is 4 WP, 10% W-EV, +2 MA
Gold Staff is 10 WP, 10% W-EV, +2 PA, 25% Dispel

Flails
Flails lose Two Hands compatibility, but DO NOT return to regular random formula
Flame Whip is 10 WP, 10% W-EV, Fire-elemental, Boost: Fire
Morning Star is 11 WP, 10% W-EV

Guns
Mythril Gun is 9 WP, 5% W-EV, +2 MA
Blaze Gun is 12, 5% W-EV, 5-Range, Casts Ice/2/3
Glacier Gun is 12, 5% W-EV, 5-Range, Casts Fire/2/3
Blast Gun is 12, 5% W-EV, 5-Range, Casts Bolt/2/3

Crossbows
Hunting Bow is 12 WP, 5% W-EV, 25% Second Attack
Gastrafitis is 14 WP, 5% W-EV

Longbows
Long Bow is 12 WP, 5% W-EV, 5-Range
Windslash Bow is 10 WP, 5% W-EV, Wind-elemental
Mythril Bow is 11 WP, 5% W-EV, +1 PA

Harps
Lamia Harp is 13 WP, 10% W-EV, 25% Confuse
Bloody Strings is 13 WP, 10% W-EV, Absorbs Damage as HP (Undead reversal)
Fairy Harp is 13 WP, 10% W-EV, 25% Charm

Books
Battle Dict is 13 WP,  0% W-EV, 25% Zombie
Monster Dict is 11 WP, 0% W-EV, 25% Sleep
Papyrus Plate is 9 WP, 0% W-EV, 25% Petrify

Spears
Partisan is 14 WP, 20% W-EV, 25% Cancel: Protect
Oberisk is 13, 10% W-EV, +1 PA
Holy Lance is 11, 10% W-EV, Holy-elemental, 25% Holy

Sticks
Ivory Rod is 10 WP, 15% W-EV, +2 MA
Octagon Rod is 12 WP, 25% W-EV, 25% Frog
Whale Whisker is 11 WP, 15% W-EV, Water-elemental

Bags
All bags are 12 WP, 0 W-EV
C Bag is +1 MA
FS Bag is +2 PA
P Bag is Always: Regen (stays for now)
H Bag is Half: all elements

Cloths
All cloths are 0 WP, 35% W-EV, Initial: Defend
Persia is Always: Protect
Cashmere is Always: Shell
Ryozan Silk is Initial: Haste (wanted Always: Regen, but... =/)

Throwables
All throwables are 9 WP, except Shuriken which is 11 WP.

Shields
Ice Shield is 20% P-EV, 15% M-EV, Absorb: Ice, Weak: Fire
Fire Shield is 20% P-EV, 15% M-EV, Absorb: Fire, Weak: Ice
Gold Shield is 20% P-EV, 15% M-EV, Absorb: Thunder, Weak: Earth
Aegis Shield is 10% P-EV, 50% M-EV, +1 MA, Cancel: Silence
Crystal Shield is 25% P-EV, 20% M-EV, +1 PA, Cancel: Stop

Hemlets
Platina Helmet is 95 HP, 0 MP, +1 PA
Circlet is 115 HP, 25 MP, +1 MA
Crystal Helmet is 150 HP, 0 MP, Cancel: Sleep

Hats
Twist Headband is 56 HP, 0 MP, +2 PA
Black Hood is 100 HP, 0 MP, Cancel: Don't Move, Don't Act
Golden Hairpin is 80 HP, 50 MP, +1 MA, Cancel: Silence
Thief Hat is 45 HP, 0 MP, +1 Speed, Cancel: Charm
Flash Hat, 30 HP, 25 MP, +1 MA, +1 Speed
Ribbon is 20 HP, 0 MP, Cancel: All negative statuses

Armor
Carabini Mail is 115 HP, 0 MP, +1 PA
Crystal Mail is 170 HP, 0 MP, Cancel: Petrify
Reflect Mail is 145 HP, 0 MP, Always: Reflect

Clothes
Power Sleeve is 70 HP, 0 MP, +2 PA
Earth Clothes is 85 HP, 10 MP, Absorb: Earth, Boost: Earth
Black Costume is 100 HP, 0 MP, Absorb: Fire, Cancel: Stop
Rubber Costume is 50 HP, Absorb: Thunder, Cancel: Don't Move

Robes
Wizard Robe is 30 HP, 22 MP, +2 MA
White Robe is 45 HP, 60 MP, Half: Thunder, Fire, Ice
Black Robe is 60 HP, 45 MP, Boost: Thunder, Fire, Ice
Light robe is 55 HP, 50 MP, Always: Regen, Weak: Darkness (stays for now)

Accessories
Germinas Boots is +1 Move, +1 Jump
Rubber Shoes is 30% M-EV, +1 Move, Cancel: Thunder
Sprint Shoes is +1 Speed
Bracer is +2 PA
Magic Gauntlets is +2 MA
Reflect Ring is Always: Reflect
Defense Ring is Cancel: Sleep, Berserk, Death Sentence
Magic Ring is +1 MA, Cancel: Silence, Absorb: Earth, Wind (note: Absorb: Water is now removed)
Angel Ring is Initial: Reraise, Cancel: Blind, Dead
Diamond Armlet is +1 PA, +1 MA, Cancel: Slow
Jade Armlet is Cancel: Stop, Petrify
108 Gems is Cancel: Blood Suck, Undead, Frog, Poison, Boost: All elements
N-Kai Armlet is Cancel: Confusion, Charm, Half: Darkness
Wizard Mantle is 10% P.EV, 20% M.EV, +1 MA
Elf Mantle is 15% P.EV, 15% M.EV, Initial: Transparent
Feather Mantle is 20% P.EV, 10% M.EV, Always: Float
(Perfumes are dead; Feather Boots is dead until I can think of a boost to give it)

Abilities:
Charm/Haste duration is ASM'd implementation.
Potion is BANNED (or whatever equivalent we come up with so that Hi-Potion (70 HP) is the minimum potion for Auto-Potion).
Cure4 now only heals one unit.
Ice/Fire/Bolt4 are now 10 CT and can hit the caster
Meteor is 12 CT, Dmg_F(MA*45), 70 MP Cost, Hits Allies
Drain is both vanilla Drain and 1.3 Diminish (Dark-elemental, 33% damage healed as hp, Undead Reversal)
Pray Faith and Doubt Faith are now 1 CT
Salamander/Leviathan are Dmg_F(MA*13), 3 AOE
Golem is now 6 CT with Caster Faith/100*(MA+10%) to hit
Zodiac is Dmg_F(MA*47), 10 CT, 99 MP Cost
Chirijiraden is MA*15, Hits Allies and Caster
Last Song is 20% to hit
Nameless Song loses Random Flags
Nameless Dance is now 10% to hit and loses random hits flag
Throw Axe is back in Throw Skillset

Oh good. Someone else is picking this up. Now I can stop feeling guilty about wanting to do this but knowing that I'd probably stop for one of other projects.

I'll respond in list form since attempting to multi-quote as usually would look atrocious here:

ASM:

• So, first and foremost question that comes to mind if you're using ASM as a base: Are you going to use the lowered movement range that ASM uses? I'm guessing you're not.
• If Flails are still that formula, then are they still 100% to hit?
• I'm curious as to why you're not implementing the various Equip changes.
• I agree that Thieves need to lose Innate Concentrate, simply because Concentrate as a whole is stupid. That said, I'm not sure if giving them a self-inflicting Transparent ability will be useful since it's the AI. IIRC, the enemy Archers never used Camouflage in philsov's demo and even if they did, according to what philsov said, they'd be hesitant to leave it. Trying to "balance" Thieves is a pain....
• I have no real comment on Fury at the moment since I still haven't tested it nearly enough and am uncertain where I'm even going to use it for my own patch now.

Jobs:

• I agree with all of this.

Items:

• Generally, it would probably be best to put down all other pieces of equipment you have included even if they're same and just point out what's newly changed so it's easy to compare things.
• Daggers: I'm guessing Zorlin Shape got combined with Air Knife because the latter was kind of weak and Zorlin Shape normally isn't "allowed" anyway? Assassin Dagger arguably needs a better proc unless or until we can make it so that the Death Sentence status doesn't make the AI completely idiotic.
• Ninja Swords: Not much to say except that I'm still weary of how the AI does with "Always: Transparent" gear.
• Swords: Blood Sword should probably either be forced 2H or at least not be able to be used with Two Swords. Not sure the Sword with strongest WP should be the one with the chance to double attack, especially since it can used with Two Swords.
• Knight Swords: I'm fine with these changes.
• Katana: Not that I dislike these, but why not just use the Katana set that philsov has?
• Axes: Nice to see Axes look more useful without needing freaking Decapitate.
• Rods: I'm fine with these changes.
• Staves: If anything, it seems like Wizard Staff should have less evasion than Wizard Rod, otherwise Wizard Rod gets outclassed for all classes that can use it outside of Wizard. But perhaps that's the point....
• Flails: Provided they don't have innate Concentrate still, I'm fine with these changes to Flails.
• Guns: Mythril Gun having +1 MA seems rather unnecessary.
• Crossbows: As with Ancient Sword, I'm not sure Hunting Bow needs as much WP if it can potentially attack twice.
• Bows: I'm fine with these. (In fact, my idea for Longbow is the same.)
• Harps: I'm more than fine with these. The Harps should be more about their effects than a progression in power like other weapons.
• Books: Also fine with these considering that the effects are useful without making them into the sometimes nukes they are in 1.3. Might want to switch Zombie to Battle Dict and Sleep to Monster Dict though since Sleep is arguably more dangerous than Zombie in an AI tournament.
• Spears: Uh, why does Partisan have 0-Range? Why not just force it to be 2-Hands if you don't want it eclipsing the other spears?
• Sticks: Sigh, Octagon Rod. It's so difficult to make it not suck. Cancel: Frog is better, but even if the AI knows how to use it, I'd imagine that it will kill any ally it's attempting de-Frogging due to the sheer WP being multiplied by MA and then Frogs taking extra damage. That combined with the fact that lower the WP wouldn't exactly make it better....
• Bags: Okay, this is my first real point of contention: Either bags need to be forced Two-Hands or you need to nerf P-Bag's Always Regen. I'm surprised that you attempted (more on this later) to nerf Light Robe and kill Perfumes and then not touch P-Bag when it was your very winning strategy that proved how broken P-Bag was. It basically serves as a second set of armor for woman alongside shields while allowing for women to equip armor with better HP, which just means it's all the more broken with Light Robe getting its necessary nerf.
• Cloths: Is it really necessary for these to have 0 WP? It seems like they'd do fine with 1 WP. It just seems odd that weapons couldn't even freaking kill people when freaking Bags can AND two of other weapons with more WP have the same effect as one of the Cloths (Save the Queen for Persia and Hidden Knife for Ryozan Silk).
• Throwables: Might want to change Water Ball to Ice Ball considering that Flame Shield is inferior to Ice Shield now ironically. Otherwise, it's "fine" or at least as fine as Throw can be currently.
• Shields: Fine with these. Nice to see that Ice Shield is technically better than Flame Shield now unless the above is made and even then they'd more or less equal, which is much better than Ice Shield being markedly inferior.
• Helmets: Fine with these too.
• Hats: Is Flash Hat supposed to be dead or not? That Ribbon needs that much MP (or any, really). Other than that, I like what you did with Thief Hat.
• Armor: I'm fine with these.
• Clothes: Does Rubber Costume actually need Move +1? It's like you went out of way to improve Rubber Shoes and then made Rubber Costume obviate that. Otherwise fine.
• Robes: Light Robe does need a nerf, but I find hard to believe that being weak to Darkness, of all things, is actually that much of nerf. Let's face it, outside of Fire, Ice and Lightning, there simply aren't that many elemental abilities from vanilla--trust me, I kind of had to go out of my way to add a whole bunch. Even with Diminish/Life Drain being Dark now, the only other Dark abilities are Lich and...what, Demi? Yeah.... On top of that, you sort of out of way to make sure that neither Blood Sword nor Bloody Strings were Dark type (which I agree with) when there aren't any Dark type weapons to begin with outside of Yagyu Darkness, which is throwable. That said, the aforementioned problem makes it difficult to nerf Light Robe with elementals: Holy barely has any either; same with Water. The closest thing would perhaps be Wind due to the slight increase in Wind-based weapons and, unlike with Earth, Wind can't be completely negated by a status. But, yeah, Light Robe (and P-Bag) need some kind of nerf. It's just that Darkness is not it, especially with N-Kai already being a decent accessory.
• Accessories: As nice as it is to see Rubber Shoes look more useful, I don't see why it lost Block: Don't Move and gained Move +1. Other than that, Feather Mantle now obviates Feather Boots. Hell, Feather Mantle obviates Float. Yeah.
• Misc: Not sure why you did the Potion thing. Other than that, are you moving it back to where Draw Out doesn't hit allies?

That's all I have to say for now.

ASM:

• The lowered movement ranges WILL be used until testing shows that they are detrimental. My own testing has shown otherwise, but I'd like a second opinion first.
• Flails are still 100% hit by virtue of using physical gun formula. (they're 100% hit by default)
• They complicate balancing more. Most of the equipment changes I made to give multiple options per slot, per class. Except in a few cases like swords and crossbows, Equip X abilities were ignored. Allowing armored classes to equip clothes, for instance, may open a whole can of worms I'm not prepared for at the moment. (Again, it's pending)
• I figured Vanish would enable thieves to still have 100% attacks; it would just cost them every other turn. But if the A.I. is very crazy when using Transparent, I might forgo using Transparent altogether outside of Elf Mantle. Speed reduction still stays, though, especially since we're not following the ASM'd philosphy of "no +speed outside head+accessory".
• We will see if Fury becomes an issue soon enough.

Items:

• Point noted about other equips, though only some missing Accessories need to be filled in... if a weapon isn't listed, it either isn't usable or we're leaving it garbage. I have no intent of balancing everything...
• Daggers: Zorlin Shape did indeed get merged with Air Knife. Assassin Dagger could get 100% poison, perhaps, but I don't see the A.I. being "idiotic" outside of using Death Sentence on an unit with Reraise. To me, that's just Meta (that is, it's just what comes with countering something)
• Ninja Swords: Hidden Knife might get removed, or given just Initial: Transparent. Whichever.
• Swords: Blood Sword will not be usable with Two-Swords, and I will make that note. Might even get a drop to 9 WP, but I wanted it to at least be an attractive option. BTW, Ancient Sword got switched back to 25% Don't Move when you weren't looking... <_<
• Knight Swords: Good.
• Katana: I was trying to avoid throwing procs around everywhere, and instead give weapons meaningful differences. They're only 25% chance, afterall. Most players will ignore them unless they happen to be the strongest neutral weapon available. For now, these will have to do, but I'm hoping for better ideas to come around.
• Axes: It is nice, isn't it?
• Rods: Good.
• Staves: Yeah, that's kinda the point.
• Flails: What's wrong with 100% hit on Flails, anyways? They're flat damage and barely break half the damage of Knights, Monks, or Ninjas... in exchange for being more reliable. I could just make them non-Two-Swordsable, if that's what you're worried about...
• Guns: It seems necessary to me, otherwise it looks REALLY plain next to the magic guns.
• Crossbows: 1.3 Gastrafitis with the same WP wasn't really an issue. Could you provide examples of what you mean?
• Bows: Good.
• Harps: Good.
• Books: Noted. They will be switched around.
• Spears: 0-Range was so that it could only be used for Jump and Throw. But I read afterwards in this thread that it doesn't work... I think it was YOU you said it... maybe not. But in any case, it got changed when you weren't looking.
• Sticks: PX pointed out that with the necessary formula, Cancel: Frog meant that Octagon Rod had to be physical (PA*WP). So yeah, it got changed to 25% Add Frog instead. A worthwhile proc that only Oracle can use. (Still channeling what I said about procs, too... take note)
• Bags: First of all, if you're talking about my Time Mage, she is not using P-Bag and doesn't even have Regen... my Knight does. So we'll get to Light Robe in a bit. Secondly, so long as Light Robe exists (regardless), Always: Regen costing a mage their weapon slot is fine, since to make the trick work they have to forgo useful weapons, and then choose between squishiness and fast casting or durability and no short-charge. (read: 3rdOracle was using THIEVES, man. They're getting nerfed.) But again, if you have other examples, please tell me.
• Cloths: I'm just copying PX here, really. 1 WP wouldn't hurt, but we'll see.
• Throwables: I find that ironic when fire teams still have better synergy all-around. Not to mention there aren't that many water-elemental attacks going around to begin with. (No, Masamune doesn't count - it heals) But I'll think about it.
• Shields: Good.
• Helmets: Good.
• Hats: Left that last line in their on accident; it was removed when you weren't looking. As for Ribbon, I didn't want it to be 0/0... whenever I saw that, I didn't want to use it at all because even with fury hack, a mage with no hp boost is still pretty squishy. But perhaps 40 HP is a better choice, in that case...
• Armor: I'm fine with these.
• Clothes: Nah, I guess not. it's just how Rubber Costume is. It could lose +1 Move and gain Cancel: Don't move, which Rubber Shoes lost.
• Robes: Dark abilities include Demi/2, Lich, Death, Gravi2, Kotetsu, Life Drain, Slasher's Axe Proc, and Yagyu Darkness. But I actually re-read the mechanics guide and it seems I did make a critical error - elemental weakness does not affect success rate (which was what I was thinking of), so outside Kotetsu and Yagyu Darkness, all of these would be rather dubious. I'm keeping it, just to make these usable, but I will think about another way to nerf it that makes sense.
• Accessories: Yeah, I noticed that about Feather Mantle right after I made that decision. (>_<) Feather Boots will be getting a boost, most likely. As for the Float spell... well, you win some, you lose some. (at least it has AOE)
• Misc: Draw Out currently does not discriminate.

Hope to hear more.

Yeah, sorry about commenting on things you had changed. I had started that long list at like 3:00 A.M. in the morning, the same way that I'm starting this one at 3:25 A.M. I promptly fell asleep in the middle of it at around 5:00 A.M., didn't wake up until 3:00 P.M. and then my computer was acting up until I eventually posted it. So, yeah.

As for your responses:

• Lowered movement: I simply find it rather tedious and somewhat unnecessary if we're taking out Move +3 and Teleport (which the AI can't really use anyway) as it is. Move +2 would also probably end up being so expensive as too be something that's "earned" rather than an all-too-easily grabbed ability. Also, if you're going for limited movement, then Move +1 on the Rubber items seem even more dubious. That said, I wouldn't mind if the lowered movement ended up staying if we could test, if only because it would be the AI running the show and not me. Heh.
• Equip X: I suppose you do have a point. I kind of went with the mentality of trying to "balance everything", which I now realize you're not doing; I don't blame you--it kind of strains your sanity if you're trying to make a bunch of ability changes and such as it is. (Which reminds me....)
• Daggers: I meant more that that AI almost always ignores units with Death Sentence even when said unit is still a huge threat. This was a bigger problem when Death Sentence didn't ignore Block: Dead, but I'm pretty sure that one of the ASMs that philsov is using--I'm too lazy and busy to check right now--is the one that makes it so DS does ignore Block: Dead. But, yeah, 100% Poison would be a fix, though 25% would probably be safer and yet still better. (Although it would mean that Dagger wouldn't use SP as part of its equation like the others do.) Up to you, really.
• Flails: The "problem" was more that the Two Swords thing than anything else, though I'll be fair say that 100% anything kind of annoys me. Still, it's hardly a problem with Flails (as long they can't be Two Sworded) than it is with Concentrate.
• Guns: Oh, I never said that Mythril Gun doesn't need something else. I just don't see why it's MA +1. I meant "unnecessary" more as "unrelated" than "overpowered". After all, of the two generic classes that can use Guns, the MA only affects Mediators and +1 MA hardly boosts their skills by anything useful. Also, it's debatable whether we should even allow the magic guns for the AI tournament anyway. Also, I've been meaning to ask, but, uh, you do know that the Gun's WP^WP can't take statuses, right? How are you intending for Mythril Gun to add 25% Slow?
• Crossbows: More just a pet peeve than anything. It great annoys me that Gasphetes can be used with one-hand considering both its in-game description and knowing the medieval weapon it's based on. That and I'm just generally weary of double-strike, especially since Crossbows have some of the lamest procs as it is, so there's no reason not to use Hunting Bow IMO. Crossbows would actually one of the few things that I would say 1.3 actually made worse.
• Bags: Whoops, I was thinking of 3rdOracle. That said, I would disagree that it's P-Bag really "takes up" a mage's weapon slot unless that mage is an Oracle or a Priest that intends to equip a Flail. That said, I won't press the issue since between Books and some other mage-weapon changes, perhaps it won't be as important.
• Cloths: Very well. Also, I forgot to commend you on the "Initial: Defend".
• Throwables: Fire-based teams have better synergy simply because more things absorb Fire. Seriously. Even without 1.3 Black Costume unnecessarily absorbing Fire, there are almost as many monsters that absorb Fire as there are weak to it. Compare this to Ice, where the only things that absorb it are Ice Shield, which was markedly inferior to Fire Shield even in evasion stats, and one single monster (a Blue Dragon). Kind of difficult to make team out of that, especially when Fire Shield absorbs Ice and has a less common weakness (that can easily be turned into a boon with the unnecessary changes to 1.3. Magic Ring) while Ice Shield suffers a much more common weakness (that can only be blocked by a relatively mediocre accessory [since Rubber Suits weren't allowed in the 3rd AI tournament]) and suffers a lot more monsters that are weak to it. Hell, due to the way Black Costume is, basically even if monsters weren't in the equation, Fire would still be better because Fire-absorb teams can spend their Support slot on something other than Equip Shield if they're not using one of the few classes that innately equip Shields. I'll stop here since none of this has to do any of the throwing items in reality.
• Hats: I think you're perhaps underestimating how good blocking all status is, though I will admit that perhaps I'm overestimating it. That said, I would fine with 20 HP and maybe 20 or 30 MP. More than that it kind of iffy to me.
• Misc: Oh, I must have missed the part about Chirijiraden hitting the caster now. Hunh.

I'll have to refresh my memory with regards to the elemental mechanics (since it's been more than two months), but I still say that Light Robe (and P-Bag) need more of a nerf. That's all for now.

After updating my CLF for units from Arena, and trying to build my team, I noticed that speed pretty much across the board is very low. 7 speed seems to be the average, with things like Ninja, Thief, Archer and Mime getting to 8 speed. Right now, I can set up my Ninja to have 12 speed (2x Daggers, Thief Hat, Sprint Shoes). Throwing a 14 WP Sword (Ancient Sword right now):

Neutral compat and using the brave+40 formula for Fury
70 Fury for both units - 241 damage
70 Fury and 40 Fury - 181 damage

Considering the Ninja is almost double turning a standard 7 speed unit, a 4 range attack (5 if you use Rubber Costume) and even more damage since I haven't equipped Attack UP yet, I'm not going to bother with any test teams right now. A Lancer decked out in Crystal Equipment has 521 HP. With Attack UP, this is easily a 2HKO. Add in Haste (it lasts longer than in 1.3!!!!) and I have my one man army. This is just too broken.

Here are some other random things I've noticed from random testing
-It's pretty hard to hit a mage midcharge. Speed overall has been reduced, but spell speeds have remained the same from 1.3. Pure mage teams seem pretty risk free right now, unless 12 speed Ninja is around.
-Salamander is awesome! 3 AoE, being able to hit allies, and 6CT is so fun. Too bad MA*12 makes it fairly weak, but it keeps my team in very good condition all the time while hurting the whole enemy team. Screw Bard + Mime, I got Salamander!
-I thought the extra evasion from Weapon Guard would make battles a luckfest, but melee teams seem to be holding their ground, with the drops in evasion from Shields and Mantles.
-A Ninja with 2 Spell Edges is doing less damage than a Ninja with 2 Assassin Daggers. This needs some fixing as well.
-Most of the damaging summons right now can hit allies. This is intended right? The only ones that ignore ally panels are Shiva and Ramuh, and well its kind of odd that Ifrit gets singled out.

EDIT: BTW, if you are planning to edit unit stats, PLEASE only edit the multipliers, not the growths. I don't want to waste another hour recalculating the raw stats for the CLF.

Good morning, everyone. I will address both posts simultaneously.

FFMaster

• Summons are NOT supposed to hit allies. It is a change Philsov made that I overlooked, and I intend to fix it.
• I ran some calcs, and I'm getting 203 maximum damage, assuming 40 is the base constant (which PX says is still too much). To get close to 241, the constant would have to be base 50, which is WAY too much. Or am I missing something?
  I digress though - I don't want to, but I will probably be taking away the +speed on daggers. (It means that aside from effects, daggers and ninja swords are pretty same-y and either one may as well be the other) Ninja and Thief will cap at 10 speed, which is even less damage at constant 40... 169 (A single point above your calc, minus the Fury hack). Also, Rubber Costume lost +move while you weren't looking, so no range shenanigans. (<_<)
• That does bring up the issue of mages having more durability overall and being more risk free. 40 Base constant means they take even less damage than what you were getting. (assuming the constant was the problem) So I will probably increase spell charge times, and raise WP across the board to compensate.
• The only change I made to job growths were Squire and Mime. Thief and Ninja got lower mults, and nothing else was changed by me. Any "changes" otherwise are ASM'd changes, so you'll just have to adjust to them. It's interesting, too... I took another look, and HP growth was increased for most units. That explains why even though I lowered HP/MP raises for all armours, you're still getting a 521 HP Lancer. =/

The Damned

• Lowered movement: It must be noted that for the most part, accessory and equipment changes dealing with movement are similar (if not the same) to ASM'd implementation. Personally, I trust Philsov's decisions with these, and again, testing may prove otherwise. (FFMaster and I will have to make more tests)
• Equip X: Good.
• Daggers: I know what you meant. To me, that's just the disadvantage of using Death Sentence - you can't just thrown it on a glass cannon team now to get over a troublesome foe. You need to be able to keep the pressure off until the clock strikes down, and that requires team-building which I see as a good thing. Also, thank you for reminding me that 100% status means PA*WP formula, but in the end I may still keep 25% Death Sentence.
• Flails: Two-Sworded Attack UP Flails actually do roughly the same damage as Two-Sworded Concentrate Spell Edges (even assuming 12 Speed; maybe slightly more at 10 speed), so I don't see the issue here, either.
• Guns: MA+1 so that it's more useful to everyone on that job tree. Chemist may still run MA-reliant abilities like Talk Skill or Haste, and I wanted to give them something related to encourage its use. 25% Slow, believe it or not, is not THAT useful given its low reliability. But alas, after talking to PX about it, using Dmg_[Weapon] may lead to glitching, so I'll need to make changes anyways. They'll probably be +2 MA instead.
• Crossbows: Personally, I like Crossbow Proc, and again 25% isn't that reliable. You're basically getting about 25% more damage off Hunting Bow than Gastrafitis 25% of the time. It means that it's overall weaker, but will probably K.O a unit in a pinch.
• Bags: I'm thinking, it won't. Probably only Time Mage would still want it.
• Cloths: Okay.
• Throwables: That's the point, though. In exchange for lacking team synergy, Ice is also harder to block offensively (as is Water, if you'll take another look at Magic Ring...) There needs to be a few elements you can't build your team around or punish too effectively, otherwise nothing elemental will probably be used. In my mind, that makes the two side of the coin roughly even. And you're wrong about fire monsters - for the tourney, there's only really Bomb, Grenade, and Minitaurus.
• Hats: You'll be surprised to find I went with 20 HP when you weren't looking (BTW, I keep asking PX to update the first post, but he doesn't. Look at MY post for updates)
• Misc: Okay.
• We'll see about nerfing Always: Regen...

EDIT:

Quote from: "philsov"Haste lasts for 26 ticks in this patch, which is infact halfway between the vanilla value and 1.3, but that's a cool coincedence since 26 was derived from some math.

The patcher file appears to have the correct values, so please let me know if this value is actually too high.

Good morning/afternoon.

Quote from: "AeroGP"Throwables: That's the point, though. In exchange for lacking team synergy, Ice is also harder to block offensively (as is Water, if you'll take another look at Magic Ring...) There needs to be a few elements you can't build your team around or punish too effectively, otherwise nothing elemental will probably be used. In my mind, that makes the two side of the coin roughly even. And you're wrong about fire monsters - for the tourney, there's only really Bomb, Grenade, and Minitaurus.

A few slight points of contention here though I otherwise agree:

• Magic Ring: The Water absorption is what I had meant about Magic Ring since that was a key part of 3rdOracle's strategy. Not sure why I said Fire absorption. Probably because it was three in the morning again.
• Ice Offense: As for Ice being harder to block offensively, I kind of disagree there. Sure, now it is, but like I said before, Fire Shield halved Ice and, unlike Ice Shield, had a weakness that was made into an advantage by an accessory. It's more even now, but really Fire only has one more deterrent than Ice when it comes to offense before we start getting into useful monsters; nothing else has much way in the way of deterring Fire exclusively since White Robe halves both and, well, that's pretty much it. Interestingly enough, I don't think any of the three or four Fire-based teams from last tournament ended up facing each other; if they did, then I think it was only one occurrence.
• Useable Monsters: I should have specified that I was talking about useful monsters when I was doing that counting, though I don't deny that I probably overestimated since I've been mentally going by my own changes for a while; now that I think about it, I'm uncertain if greens dragons or hydras absorb Fire and I vaguely remember hydras being banned anyway.... Regardless, even with that memory flaw, that's still three more than decent monsters compared to one at best mediocre monster. Additionally, Fire being more popular arguably deterred some of the better monsters since Skeletons and Ghosts are weak to it (even though the only other feasible absorption strategy in the third tournament was based around that obscure and weak elemental of Darkness) alongside being more difficult to heal. I'm not going to act like anyone ever wanted to use any of the Woodfolk; even with the lowered movement I'd think they'd suffer simply because the one to have Spirit of Life is the (banned) third tier one.

Speaking of monsters, I'm rather curious how you're going to handle them, though I have a few suggestions when it comes to that. (Nice to know that I'm not the only one responding.)

I think the Fury I implemented was Brave+50. Going to test again.

EDIT: I redownloaded the files and patched the iso again, but the damage is still the same...

EDIT2: Ran some calcs on paper, and it SHOULD be 203 damage.

EDIT3: The Fury hack was Brave + 50, the numbers in Zodiac.xml was wrong, and Zodiac is updating them now. After I uncheck the hit allies box for Summons, prepare for some videos!

EDIT4: Draw Out hits the user.

EDIT5: ASM'd changes pretty much all of Draw Out and I have no idea what most of them are doing.

I have returned from my 6-hour visit to a friend's house.

The Damned:
So aside from some very good points, we're in agreement on this? BTW, unless some balancing is done Hydras will probably stay banned, and regular Dragons absorb thunder, not fire. (Only Red Dragon absorbs fire)

My idea for monsters (though I don't plan to implement it quite yet) is to make them like Worker 8 or Byblos - humans with monster sprites and incapability of switching jobs - which would potentially allow palette swapping if someone's willing to rig that. They'd have the best combination of powers within their family line without stepping into broken territory, and like in ASM'd would probably bear some resistance to certain statuses. (but not too many) But first, I'll need to actually write down my plans to work them out.

I'd like to hear your ideas, as well, so I can hopefully incorporate some of them.

FFMaster:
Yeah, as mentioned I haven't actually removed changes to Draw Out and Elemental made by Philsov. I'll be sure to ask him about it. In the meantime, make due or try testing other things.

Yes, we're basically in agreement. Although, I don't see why we can't just nerf Hydras if they're supposed so OP; I'm sure there would be some people who might like to use them considering their different elemental properties from Dragons.

As for improvements, yes, turning all monsters into Worker 8 and Byblos is the easiest viable solution to making (more) monsters useful. Sure it screws over Monster Skill, but I don't think even that team with three monsters and one human (female Time Mage) was using Monster Skill.

The only real problem is with that Worker 8 solution is Dragons since they're the only monster that's innately different, so it brings up the question whether you'd make up multiple Worker Dragons or you're just have to make some Holy Dragon-esque gestalt.

That said, the only other real solutions would involve giving them a lot more innate advantages (like giving them all four Innate abilities). Otherwise (or additionally, since I did the four innate thing AND this), you'd have to rework their abilities and their elemental affinities a lot more, but elemental affinities wouldn't do much in this case since philsov didn't really add anything. (So everything besides Fire, Ice and Lightning is still pretty rare.)

@The Damned

Come on chat, that's were we're discussing Arena.

A few things from testing.

- Ninja doesn't have 2 swords innate anymore - you accidentally removed it.
- My female Mime had about 200 HP... Pushing the HP Multiplier up to 255 gave her bit over 300.
- Testing the Archers, I've seen them use all their skills except for their Focus attack. The Lightning attack was used, but it never connected.
- Carabini Mail has Haste? When it was on a Lancer and Samurai, I've never seen a team fall apart so quickly.

EDIT:
- Focus shot is pretty glitchy. AI can move after charging, and the animation is quite bugged. Also has 100% hit rate.
- AI uses Remedy to heal status from the lightning attack.

Ninja will get 2 Swords back.
Mime's HP Multiplier will be increased to 255.
100% hit on Focus was intentional, since the damage boost is rather small now. The animation and A.I. will be tweaked, though.
Initial: Haste on Carabini was an experiment. It will return to +1 PA.
Remedy healing chicken was agreed upon (even if you were joking), but if you disagree with it we can remove that.

QuoteEDIT5: ASM'd changes pretty much all of Draw Out and I have no idea what most of them are doing.

A combination of the old self-aoe 2-radius, a Triple Attack-like at 2 range, and a 5-space linear attack (kikui and something).  Least, those are the 6 offensive ones.  All the defensive ones are the selfaoe 2 radius deal.

Edit:

The change to elemental is that some panels adopted a PA-based and/or MA-based formula.  All panels are either:

([PA + 4) / 2] * PA (pretty sure affected by attack up, and NOT MAU)
([PA + 4) / 2] * MA (old formula)
([MA + 4) / 2] * MA (MAU)

The spread is pretty even between both these formulas and which terrain type is associated with which formula, especially for the common ones.

Though I admit I haven't done enough testing to know if the AI will seek out higher damage panels when possible, but the goal was to make elemental scale better, and also enables it to be a secondary on most (all?) units with little recourse short of unit placement.

Edit2:

And in case you haven't noticed it yet, Item got a facelift too.  Potions now heal for 30-50-100-200 and ethers are 20-50-80.  3 new abilities added:  both protect and slow, both haste and poison, and either faith or innocent.  Only two abilities cure status -- holy water and remedy -- and upon removal of these they randomly heal the target between 1 and 150 HP.  Feel free to warp however you want.

Quote from: "Philsov"Though I admit I haven't done enough testing to know if the AI will seek out higher damage panels when possible, but the goal was to make elemental scale better, and also enables it to be a secondary on most (all?) units with little recourse short of unit placement.

AI Never. The way the AI works with range and movement is that, assuming no status related abilities (note 25% procs are never considered into calculation), they test the formula against all reachable targets of the map (range of ability + movement of character + height tolerances) and it will move accordingly if it needs to (for example, use a higher damaging skill that has less range to finish off a charging target, or use an ability to cancel charging). However, when it comes to Geomancy, unfortunately while they still calculate the damage, however, they are not aware of which panel does what.

Let me give you an example test case that I have tested in the past, panel A: F(MA+1)% Poison,   panel B: 100% All (Cham Dead Death Sentence Petrify Sleep Undead Blood Suck Poison Slow Darkness).   Even if panel B is reachable by the AI, however, the AI will not opt for panel B in its movement routine directly.

Which means that Geomancy will have to go back to the old formula.

QuoteHowever, when it comes to Geomancy, unfortunately while they still calculate the damage, however, they are not aware of which panel does what.

My prelim findings state otherwise.  Using ASM'd as the patch, I debug coded up a male Geomancer with 24 PA, 13 PA, a piddly weapon (don't want melee potential to muck this up), and attack up.  On the other side was Reis the geomancer, rocking 15 PA and 28 MA.  The battlefield was Finath River (88) because it has a nice cluster of hybrid (hell ivy), PA (carve model), and MA (pitfall) panels for the AI to pick from.  

For reference:

male geo:
Carve Model = 448
Hell Ivy = 182
Pitfall = 108

Reis:
Carve Model = 135
Hell Ivy = 252
Pitfall = 448

Units were player-controlled so they were very close to each other, and then knocked each other around until Reis had 445 HP (ie, only carve model can kill) and the Geo had 379 HP (ie, only pitfall can kill him).  Both units were then placed on Hell Ivy panels and set to Save Fading Life.  100% of the time, they went to the high damage panel and the kill shot.  Tried this dance in another part of the map with the same results.  

In fact, once units got back up to max health (about 500 and 600, respectively), they STILL opted for high damage panels in all scenarios except when -any- elemental skill would've finished them off.

~

So the AI can handle that little bit fine... I don't know what effect this'll have regarding placement behavior -- like if they'll run out and rambo themselves for that high damage panel, or do some very excellent hit and fade antics.  Probably both, really -- but that unpredictability might not be welcome in this format, dunno.

Here are the current stats for the units. Subject to change. Skillsets might appear in a few days.

(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj174/FF255Master/ArenaStats.png)
(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj174/FF255Master/Master1v2.png)

@Philsov: That seems to be inconsistent with what I have seen... you are sure it wasn't just coincedence? Did you reset the Save Fading Lives or used a Save State to see the results?  Maybe this has something to do with the way the AI checks for hit rate and max damage on certain panels. Anyway thanks for going about testing this Philsov. I'll try to replicate your tests when I get the chance.

I used a savestate to make sure these results weren't flukes, at least.  Did this at different time intervals/map locations and in two different debug battles.  

There was no AI resetting because most of the attacks were kill shots and this was one on one though.  It was all manual control to place units -> savestate -> AI control -> kill shot.  Followed up by Loadstate -> AI -> control -> kill shot a few times.  Perhaps the discrepancy was a result of the use of status effects over direct damage?  Idk.

Hmm... the Squire seems a little too good... Good PA and Good MA at the same time? It's almost like it's another Geomancer without the skillset. Actually, it's better than the Geomancer now. I seriously think it needs a small nerf, because that just seems wrong. It can basically substitute a Samurai or Ninja minus a speed point or PA, but with tons more HP. Sure, it's skillset sucks, but don't people say that about Ninja as well? It can get robes as well, so yeah... it's effectively as good as a Samurai, if not better. Sage class also seems to be better than Summoner in every way. I could say this for other things, as well, but yeah... seems a bit off to me.

Squire has already been nerfed a bit, with buffs to Geomancer and Chemist. I just haven't updated it yet.

Nice to see that the Arena got its own sub-forum, especially since it's probably the easiest patch to finish.

Quote from: "PX_Timefordeath"@The Damned

Come on chat, that's were we're discussing Arena.

Oh, eh. Sorry to have missed this. The weekend was lousy for me as it is was.

Dude, it's about time you guys got your own sub-forum. Congratulations. Can someone move the Specific Color Palettes (http://ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4695) topic to this forum? I mean all we were doing was trying to create palettes for the Arena patch. Your call though.

Again, congratulations on the new sub-forum.