Final Fantasy Hacktics

Final Fantasy XII is my current most favorite non-FFT FF. If I could play FFXII on my computer and it had a game mod, I'd be just as crazy about FFXII as I am about FFT. What I really like about FFXII is the battle system. I love the Gambit system. I love creating setups and then watching the results just unfold in front of me. Like building a machine and watching it run. It makes me giddy, it makes me happy like no other game has made me since FFT.

I really hate it when people say that FFXII sucks because it plays itself. If you've ever played the game for any appreciable amount of time, you'd know that to be false. In fact, FFXII is anything but. You have to setup the gambits, which take a great deal of strategy and planning. And even when you have the gambit optimized perfectly, you have to manage everything. It's like being a manger of a store. Just because you aren't doing everything by yourself, doesn't mean that you are being paid for nothing (please restrain yourselves from anecdotes, thank you). Saying that FFXII is too easy because it plays itself is like saying FFT is too easy because you can give yourself any setup you want. Besides, you can turn the gambits off. Not that you'd really want to. When the battles get really chaotic, you'll be grateful they are there. It would drive me insane doing everything manually, especially in the later battles.

I've struggled trying to understand what people really have against FFXII. Really. My personality constantly leads me to try to understand differing viewpoints on issues (this trait has led me down some questionable paths (see being anti-global warming), but that's another story). Is it because of the way the story's told? Maybe, but not likely or not alot. FFXII has flaws and it's storytelling is one of them. It does things right, but it also does things wrong, which have been pointed time and time again. Penelo's usefulness to the story, the lack of a buildup to a climax, the plot just slowing down as it goes on, the infamous confusion over protagonist(s), the lack of conflict for Vaan, the fact that Fran's story doesn't tie in very well to the overall story. Yes, FFXII has alot of flaws in it's storytelling, but it makes me laugh every time someone says FFXII story sucks then praises some shit heap like FFX in the same breath.

I think the big problem people have with FFXII is that it's nothing like any other Final Fantasy. And, other than FFT, they are correct. It is nothing like any other FF. It's story is complex and subtle, as oppose to being straightforward and blunt like most FFs. Most FFs are about finding out who the bad guy is, then trekking halfway around the world, carving a path of corpses through his army to kick his butt. FFXII, on the other hand is spent trying to unite the various resistances to fight off Archadia. Once you've done that, then you go kick his butt. Perhaps FFXII would have more readily recieved if wasn't a main FF title. What if it was billed as a sequel (technically, it's a prequel, but let's not go there) to FFT? If it was called FFT2, I guarantee you it would be better recieved.

The other major problem people have with this game is, THERE IS SO MUCH EXPOSITION. OH ST. AJORA, DELIVER ME. It is VERY easy to get lost in this sea of dialogue. As much as I like it, the psuedo-shakespearean (forgive my ignorance) language doesn't help. As a result, there is alot of disconnect for people between what's going on and what you are doing. They just don't understand what's going on. I didn't understand what was going on the first time I played through XII. Why am I holding up a rock to absorb the glowing from various glowing stones? Why am I taunting some of the dumbest guards since Metal Gear Solid with some of the gayest dialogue since FFX? Why am I louding announcing "I'M BASCH FON RONSENBURG OF DALMASCA" and "DON'T LISTEN TO ONDORE'S LIES", to random people on the street? Why am I running around in a sea desert genociding desert crab people (okay, that's what I do when I go there)? Why am I running around in the capital city of the enemy playing match the dialogue for people for polished pieces of wood seemingly arbitrarily named "Chops"? Why am I running around in some god forsaken maze without a map? Why am I climbing up a 100 story tower? WHAT AM I DOING? WHAT AM I FIGHTING FOOOOOOOOR!?!

Yeah, FFXII has it's issues, but calling it the worst FF game and give the reasons they give is just simply ignorant. But maybe they are right? FFXII is just so different in so many ways, that maybe it was a bad call to make it a main FF title? Maybe it would have better as an offshoot, like FFT was? People would be just as upset if XV was a dating sim/FPS (a serious video game I have BTW), even if was made perfectly. Nevertheless, XII is a great game, flawed, but great. It's battle system is nothing like any other game out there, and if FFT is any indication, will remain so long into the future.

I don't think it sucks. I actually like it.
But it has more in common with FFT than with the main FF series.
Better title for it would have been something referencing the Ivalice Alliance directly.

Personally, I think that making another sequel to FFT would probably have pissed people off more just like how people don't like FFTA, myself included, because it's not actually a sequel to FFT. (Then again, I also dislike FFTA because it's incredibly retarded in a lot of instances.)

It's difficult to say.

That said, coincidentally, I just finally started playing FFXII two days after having it for two years and I'm rather liking it.

Then again, I'm one of those unusual people that likes subtlety and pseudo-Shakespearean things up. It's fun to look up words; I've already learned what a "churl" is.

*shrug*

P.S. Can we all agree that FFVII is the worst, if only because of all the insipid fanboys it's spawned?

I found the battle system boring. That is all.

I don't think making another FFT will necessarily piss anyone off.
If they make another and it's a piece of crap like FFTA/2 it probably will.
If FF12 was labeled as part of FFT it wouldn't have hurt it. It is implicitly stated that it is part of FFT anyway as it is part of the Ivalice Alliance project.

My only problem with the game, besides it being numbered, was that it is painfully clear as day what point in the story the original director left Square.
However, over all it was a pretty enjoyable game and I like that they allowed you to play it as a normal FF by turning gambits off.

Quote from: "The Damned"P.S. Can we all agree that FFVII is the worst, if only because of all the insipid fanboys it's spawned?

Nope.  8 or bust.

I actually dislike 1 the most.

Mystic Quest was no good to me. =P

Within the context of the time it was created ff1 is a great game.
I'd probably say FF8 is the worst because of the story. It could have been better, I think if they had given a greater emphasis on the Laguna part of the story and made a final boss with more substance. I find ff7 to be only marginally less flawed than 8.

Mystic Quest was alright for the experiment that it was.

A good sequel, with more classes/features than the 1998 game and a storyline equal to FFT's would be welcome.  A OK "sequel" like XII in the same world is all right.  A terrible sequel with terrible battle mechanics AND a faulty storyline would just be a waste of money for all sides involved (FFTA and TA2).

It's not that FFT/older FF fans are picky, but we've seen how games can be made great and we don't want to accept anything less.

I love FFXII, it is my favorite, and I say all the reasons why in my playthrough of the International version.

I think all this talk of FFXII or FFXIII even not really lining up with the traditional idea of the FF games and that they shouldn't be in the numbered series is kind of bogus. The entire point of each sequel is to reinvent itself to some extent or another and that is exactly what they do whether you like it or not. If you want to talk about a game that doesn't deserve to be in the main line of games then maybe you should remember FFXI and the upcoming FFXIV, the games that everyone seems to forget even exist when making FF conversation.

Oh and if your only argument for FFVII being lame is that it is so popular (most likely due to its quality) that you wish not to be identified with some of the people who enjoy it as well, then you have some real self esteem issues and illogical drive to prove that you aren't just following popular trend (aka a rebel). Coincidentally, if all you do is go against what everyone else does or beliefs you are just as influenced by popular belief as those who don't just rebel against it.


Apparently insulting FFXII and FFVII makes me rather defensive.

I wish i had a PS2 emulator to try this.
Most PS2 emulator i had was viruses and shit like that. -.-
Man id like to try out this version that    
Cheetah is playing

Anyway i played the US FFXII for quite long. (Bit More that 150 hours)
I don't hate it at all. not my favorite but still high on my list.
Just hated the board that all character can be a jack-of-all-trades. (Making less interesting training characters)
I just love how free you are in this game.(There is more subareas that areas that is related to the story)
 Felt a bit like a MMORPG that you play online. FFXIII is the complete opositive to FFXII if you ask me.

Quote from: "The Damned"P.S. Can we all agree that FFVII is the worst, if only because of all the insipid fanboys it's spawned?

No

because FF7 has a good story independently of the quality of fanboyism it has spawned

QuoteOh and if your only argument for FFVII being lame is that it is so popular (most likely due to its quality) that you wish not to be identified with some of the people who enjoy it as well, then you have some real self esteem issues and illogical drive to prove that you aren't just following popular trend (aka a rebel). Coincidentally, if all you do is go against what everyone else does or beliefs you are just as influenced by popular belief as those who don't just rebel against it.

^ this

Quote from: "Voldemort"

Quote from: "The Damned"P.S. Can we all agree that FFVII is the worst, if only because of all the insipid fanboys it's spawned?

No

because FF7 has a good story independently of the quality of fanboyism it has spawned

QuoteOh and if your only argument for FFVII being lame is that it is so popular (most likely due to its quality) that you wish not to be identified with some of the people who enjoy it as well, then you have some real self esteem issues and illogical drive to prove that you aren't just following popular trend (aka a rebel). Coincidentally, if all you do is go against what everyone else does or beliefs you are just as influenced by popular belief as those who don't just rebel against it.

^ this

If a game is good, is good even if it has a lot of stupid fanboy
If a game sucks, sucks even if it has lot of fanboy
I completely second this post

Final Fantasy XII is a bad game, neener neener neener!

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...

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...In seriousness, I probably should play my copy.  I've owned it for years now and never even put it in my PS2 yet.

I am currently playing the game. I am really enjoying it and I think I have seen a lot of connections with Tactics in it. I am trying to beat Judge Ghis and need to learn how to chain quickenings (Its my first playthrough) Basch is awesome XD

Quote from: "Cheetah"I think all this talk of FFXII or FFXIII even not really lining up with the traditional idea of the FF games and that they shouldn't be in the numbered series is kind of bogus. The entire point of each sequel is to reinvent itself to some extent or another and that is exactly what they do whether you like it or not. If you want to talk about a game that doesn't deserve to be in the main line of games then maybe you should remember FFXI and the upcoming FFXIV, the games that everyone seems to forget even exist when making FF conversation.

I can honestly say that I never forget 11 & 14 in my arguments against certain numbered FF games being included as a main series title.
My argument isn't that the games don't deserve to be in the main series as the idea of a game needing merit to be included is ridiculous.
Here are the games that I think it was a mistake to be given a number to: FF11, FF12, FF13, & FF14

My main issues are with combat systems that are so different they push the game into a different genre. FF11 & 14 are MMORPGs which is vastly different from JRPG. I prefer the games in a series to have at least the same overall kind of game play. This is especially true when you have a situation like FF where the games have no direct story connection or even share a setting. FF13 is like this as well, but in a different way. I would have accepted 13 if it hadn't done away with most of the features common to an average FF. Really, not having towns, not speaking directly to people, and not having any significant control of your party is just inexcusable. There's barely any exploration in it and that's something I expect in any RPG let alone a FF. The battle system at least still involves turns, but not controlling all your characters isn't acceptable. This game has very little in common with FF besides summons and characters that are all but directly recycled from the last 5 games. I include FF12 only because it's story has more to do with FFT than FF. The game play isn't one of my reasons for excluding it only because the gambit system can be ignored in favor of a more traditional style of play. It even shares a lot of elements with FFT like the map style and the Zodiac beasts that replace the summons. It really feels in these instances that Square is just whoring the FF name in order to sell more. It's like with Crystal Chronicles. That series didn't need to have the FF name attached to it. Square acts like a bunch of pussies. It's like they want to make new games to entice new players, but they're too chicken shit to let the game stand on it's own merits so they slap a FF label on it and pray it'll make ppl like the game. When you have an established series ppl have certain expectations about what a sequel should in that series should include. And I don't know about the rest of you, but if I buy a sequel of a game I expect it to have the same stuff in it that made the first one fun to me. And, if it doesn't have those fun elements then I'm left very dissatisfied and disappointed. The sad thing here is that all three of the games I mentioned that are out are good games with their own merits. So really all they accomplished with choosing to include them in the main line of the series is piss off their loyal, established fans. Seriously would there have been significantly fewer sales if they has released 'Final Fantasy Online',  'Final Fantasy Tactics: Ivalice Alliance', 'Final Fantasy: Fabula Nova Crystallis', just plain 'Crystal Chronicles', or by extension 'Final Fantasy Online II'?

Quote from: "Cheetah"Oh and if your only argument for FFVII being lame is that it is so popular (most likely due to its quality) that you wish not to be identified with some of the people who enjoy it as well, then you have some real self esteem issues and illogical drive to prove that you aren't just following popular trend (aka a rebel). Coincidentally, if all you do is go against what everyone else does or beliefs you are just as influenced by popular belief as those who don't just rebel against it.

If this was directed at me, then I honestly couldn't care less about FF7 being "the worst FF". As annoying as the fanboys are, I hardly have to ever deal with them since I know to avoid them.

Besides, FF7 has a bunch more issues than just being horribly overrated. Ultimately, it's decent, I guess, but it's not nearly as good as most people believe it to be.

And, yeah, FF8 was pretty much a failure after that orphanage scene. Still disappoints the hell out of me.

I hate Cloud and Squall. Stupid little emo bitches.
They don't grow much during their stories and are uninspiring as leaders.
Cecil, Bartz, Terra, Zidane, and Tidus are a thousand times more interesting than the two whinny punks.

Tidus isn't a whinny punk?

News to me

QuoteThey don't grow much during their stories

I'd agree that Squall doesn't grow much, but Cloud? holy shit I'd be hard pressed to find other FF characters which go through so many changes as Cloud does

your comment sounds more like anti-fanboyish rage that actual thought out opinions

I won't stop calling it a bad game.

Final Fantasy XII sucks.

Bad things
Political shit story that doesn't  connect our main heroes much. Judges are awsome and are so awsome that they overshadow main characters. The game is WAY too easy. License system is just waste of an time on equipments. HOW THE FUCK CAN'T I GET ENOUGH MONEY AFTER 3 HOURS OF GATHERING MONEY?!?!?!? Music is boring to hear. I have very abusive thing in this game(shall not be mentioned). Battle system is boring. ERYTHING THAT IS MAGIC and ISN'T BUFF MAGIC OR HEALING MAGIC IS USELESS.

Good things
Gambits are make your own AI basicly and IS ONLY FUN PART OF THE GAME WTF!

Have to agree with Arch there. Tidus isn't horribly whiny but he's quite the punk, and Terra has sightly (http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=96532#p96532) more personality than a plank of wood.

Quote from: "Voldemort"Tidus isn't a whinny punk?

News to me

QuoteThey don't grow much during their stories

I'd agree that Squall doesn't grow much, but Cloud? holy shit I'd be hard pressed to find other FF characters which go through so many changes as Cloud does

your comment sounds more like anti-fan-boyish rage that actual thought out opinions

Tidus starts out almost as whinny as Squall, but you really get the sense that he 'grows up' during the course of the game.
Cloud does go through a lot of stuff during his story, but how does he grow from it?
He's an emotionless prick at the beginning, then he freaks out about maybe being a Sephiroth clone, and then when he learns the truth he ends up with the personality of a whitewash 2x4. The only time he seems believable at all is when Aerith dies.

Quote from: "Kaijyuu"Have to agree with Arch there. Tidus isn't horribly whiny but he's quite the punk, and Terra has sightly (http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=96532#p96532) more personality than a plank of wood.

Tidus does start out as a punk, but unlike Cloud and Squall he is actually shown to grow out of it. Even Vaan manages to grow a bit during the short span of FF12.
At least Terra grows. She starts like a stick because how her mind was fucked with by Kefka & the Empire. She learns not to define herself by her ability to use magic and to care for other in a way that she was never able to experience fer herself growing up. Hell, she basically adopts an entire town and becomes the mother that she never really had. Not to mention that FF6 has at least 1/2 a dozen characters that are as as interesting and show actual growth. I think that's a pretty impressive accomplishment considering the over abundance of characters to develop and the 16-bit era limitations.

The only thing that irritated me about ffxii was that I couldn't just take off and explore THE ENTIRE WORLD from the get go.  That and my standard rpg complaint about almost all of the spells and equipment being redundant by end game.

Quote from: "Voldemort"I'd agree that Squall doesn't grow much, but Cloud? holy shit I'd be hard pressed to find other FF characters which go through so many changes as Cloud does

your comment sounds more like anti-fanboyish rage that actual thought out opinions

Quote from: "Vanya"Tidus starts out almost as whinny as Squall, but you really get the sense that he 'grows up' during the course of the game.
Cloud does go through a lot of stuff during his story, but how does he grow from it?
He's an emotionless prick at the beginning, then he freaks out about maybe being a Sephiroth clone, and then when he learns the truth he ends up with the personality of a whitewash 2x4. The only time he seems believable at all is when Aerith dies.

...and BTW...

Quote from: "Voldemort"...
your comment sounds more like anti-fanboyish rage that actual thought out opinions

I don't harbor rage against what other people like. And my opinions are normally well thought out unless I'm drunk posting.

Sigh, this is why I don't bother making jokes.

Yet again FFVII takes over a FF discussion it didn't have anything to do with in the first place.

lol @  tidus grows as a character argument

ff7 > ff10

sure it has bad fanboys, but don't bash it just cuz you can't get over the superficial sephiroth bs

Quote from: "The Damned"Sigh, this is why I don't bother making jokes.

Yet again FFVII takes over a FF discussion it didn't have anything to do with in the first place.

Now, you do realize that you were the first person to mention FFVII, right?

Quote from: "Voldemort"lol @  tidus grows as a character argument

ff7 > ff10

sure it has bad fanboys, but don't bash it just cuz you can't get over the superficial sephiroth bs

Woah, woah wait. Just because FF7 had better characters than FFX, that doesn't not mean 7 is better than 10. FFX has better art (no fucking lego people), Auron, and a superior battle system.

Quote from: "Shade"I won't stop calling it a bad game.

Final Fantasy XII sucks.

Bad things
Political shit story that doesn't  connect our main heroes much. Judges are awsome and are so awsome that they overshadow main characters. The game is WAY too easy. License system is just waste of an time on equipments. HOW THE FUCK CAN'T I GET ENOUGH MONEY AFTER 3 HOURS OF GATHERING MONEY?!?!?!? Music is boring to hear. I have very abusive thing in this game(shall not be mentioned). Battle system is boring. ERYTHING THAT IS MAGIC and ISN'T BUFF MAGIC OR HEALING MAGIC IS USELESS.

Good things
Gambits are make your own AI basicly and IS ONLY FUN PART OF THE GAME WTF!

Gambits = a part of the battle system. Since most of the battle system is about gambits, I don't understand what you are talking about, to the surprise of no one.

Actually, the "Political shit story" does connect with at least Ashe and Basche. They are arguably the main characters. I thought the Judges were forgettable, but the idea of Judges are pretty cool.

Magic, attack magic, would actually still be good end game if it wasn't for the graphical limitations on the PS2. Besides, Magic and statuses becoming useless is a common problem in almost all FFs. Being too easy is a common problem in almost all FFs. Having abusive shortcuts are a common problem in almost all FFs. It's almost like it's SE's design philosophy. FFXII did a good job on making magic and statuses useful for the good part of the game and onward. I would say that FFXII is as hard as FFT. Only easy if you know what you are doing. I don't understand what you are talking about when it comes to License system. My point wasn't that FFXII is a bad game because of the same reasons that most of the modern FFs are bad, my point is that FFXII is not the worst FF game by a long shot. This game is fucking Shakespeare when compared to shit heaps like FF8 and FFX.

Quote from: "degrofm"Now, you do realize that you were the first person to mention FFVII, right?

Hence why I said that I shouldn't have bothered making that joke at all.

Sigh.

FF7 has awesome art

Auron isn't a plus for FF10, it's like saying that FF7 is good cuz it has sephiroth in it -_-

FF10's art is good, yeah, but overall I'd say FF7 is a better game

Quote from: "The Damned"

Quote from: "degrofm"Now, you do realize that you were the first person to mention FFVII, right?

Hence why I said that I shouldn't have bothered making that joke at all.

Sigh.

Oh, that was a joke? Hm. Obviously everyone has thought you were serious.

Which is why I tend to not make jokes in the first place.

People tend to think I'm serious when I'm joking and joking when I'm serious. It is but one curse of many in my life.

The Internet is a poor medium for trying to communicate something subtle that people would probably miss in real life too. As I said earlier, I don't much care about FF7. It's akin to Twilight to me: I'll shake my head when people say it's the best thing ever (or, in Twilight's case, that even comes close to good writing--oddly similarly to people thinking that Sephiroth is a good antagonist; I would sooner argue that Cloud is a likable protagonist than that) and sigh that it's so popular for all the wrong reasons, but otherwise I tend to not let it bother me or bring it up.

Anyway, as for the topic at hand, FFXII is easily not the worst FF and it doesn't seem to be a bad game thus far, though it does have its failings. (It also doesn't help that Japan never releases International versions outside of Japan. Why the hell do they call them International then...?)

Quote from: "Voldemort"FF7 has awesome art

In battle, yes. Outside of battle, which is were you are 75% of the time, hell no. The characters look absolutely hideous, even for the time.

When it comes to RPG's I put far more stock in the battle system than any other aspect of the game. FFVII's battle system is very rough and unpolished and unbalanced. FFX is far more finished, with much better balance.

Quote from: "Voldemort"lol @  tidus grows as a character argument

ff7 > ff10

sure it has bad fanboys, but don't bash it just cuz you can't get over the superficial sephiroth bs

You're just trolling now, dude.
Right now you sound like you're arguing for 7 > 10 just to defend so called 'fan-boys'.
If that's not the case, then why don't you actually explain your opinion?
You know, give some examples of character development in 7 that you think is better than in 10.

Quote from: "Dokurider"Actually, the "Political shit story" does connect with at least Ashe and Basche. They are arguably the main characters. I thought the Judges were forgettable, but the idea of Judges are pretty cool.

Magic, attack magic, would actually still be good end game if it wasn't for the graphical limitations on the PS2. Besides, Magic and statuses becoming useless is a common problem in almost all FFs. Being too easy is a common problem in almost all FFs. Having abusive shortcuts are a common problem in almost all FFs. It's almost like it's SE's design philosophy. FFXII did a good job on making magic and statuses useful for the good part of the game and onward. I would say that FFXII is as hard as FFT. Only easy if you know what you are doing. I don't understand what you are talking about when it comes to License system. My point wasn't that FFXII is a bad game because of the same reasons that most of the modern FFs are bad, my point is that FFXII is not the worst FF game by a long shot. This game is fucking Shakespeare when compared to shit heaps like FF8 and FFX.

I have to disagree slightly about the story. The reason it is often perceived as a 'political shit story' is because it fails to more thoroughly tie the characters together. It's no better than all the other lame-ass Empire gimmicks they've utilized since FF2. But most of the earlier games did a better, if simplistic job of bringing the characters together. They were getting it right during the first half of 12 where they had the whole 'I can see the ghost, too!' thing they had going on between Vaan & Ashe. If they had kept using that plot device to help draw in the characters it would have been much more interesting. As it stand it basically goes nowhere and is for the most part irrelevant to the story. This leaves things where the only reasons that the characters are there is for either revenge against the Empire or to stick by one of the other characters. It leaves most of them slightly underdeveloped in my opinion. But at least there is some growth to be had. But definitely not remotely approaching FF10.

I have to agree that the license system is inferior to the oxymoronic 'sphere grid' system of FF10. It felt forced to a great degree and the Internetional version's revision is a big leap in the right direction. On a side note, there is a guy translating it to English over at ROMHacking.org.

Quote from: "Dokurider"

Quote from: "Voldemort"FF7 has awesome art

In battle, yes. Outside of battle, which is were you are 75% of the time, hell no. The characters look absolutely hideous, even for the time.

When it comes to RPG's I put far more stock in the battle system than any other aspect of the game. FFVII's battle system is very rough and unpolished and unbalanced. FFX is far more finished, with much better balance.

there's other things besides hideous characters in FF7  outside of battle... have you taken a look at FF7's backrounds?? (yes, outside of battle)

QuoteYou're just trolling now, dude.
Right now you sound like you're arguing for 7 > 10 just to defend so called 'fan-boys'.
If that's not the case, then why don't you actually explain your opinion?

7 > 10 because it has superior storytelling and superior character development, 2 aspects of an RPG which I think are much more important than visuals. (Though I do think FF7's designs (read: designs, not graphics) are better than FF10's, something which is needs to be looked at carefully when you take into consideration the graphic engine differences responsible for running both games.)

In FF7, you are thrown into a world in turmoil (Midgar) and your character's perspective is limited to just destroying the big enemy (Shinra) and bombing the shit out of reactors. Then you realize that Midgar is just 1 spot on the entire world map and the more you play, the more the scale of the game and the actual circumstances surrounding the characters excalate. It keeps getting crazier and crazier until you finally go confront the (revealed to be) true enemy which is Sephiroth (or arguably Jenova, or even Hojo, depending on who you believe is controlling who and who is ultimately responsible for the entire mess). It's storytelling on an epic level and is the reason so many people loved FF7, Sephiroth Fanboyism not included.

In FF10, you are thrown into a world in turmoil (Dream Zanarkand) that doesn't really exist in the first place, and is actually the dream of the spirits of the real world (Fayths IIRC?). Then the more you play, the more you realize that the true enemy is actually god, who is using the process of the final summoning and an entire religious faith to re-create his Sin Shell out of the Final Aeon that he controls and uses as armor to travel around the world pwning n00bs. Then you reach the final boss, and realize that this Sin's Shell is actually your father's Final Aeon, and that you must defeat it to kill the final boss, then kill god after that, then kill all the aeons so that god cannot use them to create a new Sin Armor.

Which one do you think has the better story? C'mon... I'm not going to get too much into character development because I think we both agree that Cloud changes alot more than Tidus and that Tidus is alot more punk-ass-bitch (as you said) than Cloud ever was. Tidus does change in FF10 I'd say almost as much as Cloud does, but I never got the feeling from Tidus when he finds out his father is within Sin (and when he FINDS OUT HE"S NOT EVEN REAL) as I got from Cloud when he spends some time in the Lifestream, discovers who he is, and that his entire past is a lie. Tidus' reactions are like "wow this sucks" compared to Cloud, who has some truly bizzare scenes with mind-trip dialogue about himself as a person.

Actually, the more I think about it, the less I think you can begin to compare Cloud to Tidus as a main.

 In FF7, even the main villain of the game goes through some massive character transformations, which is more than I can say for FF10's villains. Tidus' father, which is basically telling him "boy, you're still too skinny" from the start of the game right until the final boss fight. Yu Yevon is, well, it just repeats the same thing over and over and has no real character. Yunalesca the same. Yuna found out her entire religion was a lie and that her god is evil and actually IS sin and just goes "o well, lets kill it then" with NP's.

FF10 offers up some BLAND acting across the board, and I got more from reading FF7's characters written dialogue than from hearing it from bland writing / VAing in FF10, and that says alot.

I blame it on being an early game for the ps1, but largely I found FF7's environments to be murky unnavigable messes.

Horrible looking game. At least in the NES games I could see what things were.

Quote from: "Kaijyuu"I blame it on being an early game for the ps1, but largely I found FF7's environments to be murky unnavigable messes.

Horrible looking game. At least in the NES games I could see what things were.

the in-battle environments suck

outside of battle not so much

Quotethere's other things besides hideous characters in FF7 outside of battle... have you taken a look at FF7's backrounds?? (yes, outside of battle)

Yes, I have. I've also seen how badly they clash with the out of battle characters models, which ruin the moment. You only see those backgrounds occasionally, but you are always looking at those models.

Quote from: "Dokurider"

Quotethere's other things besides hideous characters in FF7 outside of battle... have you taken a look at FF7's backrounds?? (yes, outside of battle)

Yes, I have. I've also seen how badly they clash with the out of battle characters models, which ruin the moment. You only see those backgrounds occasionally, but you are always looking at those models.

the clash is very bad

I still think FF7 is the better game though

Without any regard to whether VII is or is not better than X (since I didn't finish VII and didn't play X), Arch's right in his argument about design.  Bad quality or misplaced visuals are annoying, but bad storytelling and mechanics kill games (for a JRPG).  I mean, the very appeal of many older games to people like us today is hardly the graphics quality, but the storyline/balance/difficulty considerations that today's games lack precisely because they prioritize graphics (among many other reasons).

For the people who are bitching about FFVII having some really shit graphics (in foresight), I think you need to remember that FFVII is one of the first games on that generation's consoles, and as such the graphics ARE going to suck because most designers were just beginning to work with that console's ability to render 3D.

Super Mario 64, in retrospect, is really also nothing but a bunch of squares and 'gons, but we don't hate on it for that, because that look comes from the specific frame of time it was released.

There's a lot of shit to dislike in FF7, and I agree it was overrated, but complaining about the graphics can honestly be chalked up to ignorance at best even if they are fucking ugly and is more or less akin to the people who actually DO only hate it because it spawned fanboys everywhere.





As far as FFX vs FFVII is concerned, I need to barely call it for FFVII.  The Sphere Grid sucked, the voice acting killed baby monkey seals, and like Voldemort outlined the characters seemed to feel far less emotional when otherwise cool plot twists occurred and spoiled the moment.  A bit of polish and characters who made you want to become invested in the story because THEY were invested in the story would've made the game a lot better by itself, because FFX's battle system itself was awesome even if the Sphere Grid blew.  The game had plenty of the raw materials to be good, but at the end of the day it just didn't pull them together satisfactorily for me.  For me, the story of FFX is kind of like the Guardian Force system in FFVIII - a really fucking awesome idea that I found fun as hell when romping through the game as a kid, but it lacked polish and the fact they hadn't put thought into how Junctioning made the magic itself worthless ruined it as a battle system mechanic.  A bit more and they genuinely would've had something great in both respects, but they just fell short.

It also doesn't help that the only characters in FFX I didn't want to murder viciously were Auron and Lulu's breasts.  




FFVII... meh, I actually didn't like the Materia system at all.  It was cool but at the end of the day I just didn't feel it, even as a kid.  Not that I think my characters should be allowed to directly learn magic or any bullshit like that (again, I was fine with merely Drawing it from enemies in FFVIII and needing to keep a stock of them like Items), the system itself just seemed meh.  It doesn't help that, despite some of the scaling like Voldemort mentioned, it really doesn't feel like the game kicks it until high gear until the last third.  Some moments like Aeris dying happen, but it feels like all the main character development is thrown at once near the end of the game after I've finished looking for it to show up.  That was how I felt on it, but then again the last time I played it was several years ago, and my save file glitched so that I couldn't spawn Diamond Weapon and finish the last segment of the game, which was upsetting.  I'd still call it more enjoyable than 10 since more of the characters are likable, actually care about their own stories enough to make you care in most cases, etc., and oftentimes you can forgive flaws like graphics and even a battle system you don't entirely like as long as the characters are worthwhile and the storytelling is at least mostly good.

How can you guys say the Characters in X feel far less emotional?
Are we for getting the relationship between Tidus and Yuna? You can't honestly say that once Tidus finds out that it's her destiny to die in the casting of the final summon that it didn't evoke some pretty significant emotion. And then even more so when Tidus finds a way to save Yuna, then only to discover that he doesn't even exist in the first place.  That had a really profound effect on Tidus. It was a jarring reality that forced him to change his world view right then and there. It would be like finding out you here in reality are going to die.
Then there's all the back story you get about Tidus' old man. They did a great job of showing how he really loved his son despite his harsh words and neglect.
And Auron is already dead for gods' sake. The man felt such a sense of duty and regret that he literally ignored his own death to fulfill a promise to a friend.

While I'll admit there are some good emotional scenes in 7, the character growth just isn't there. Except for Cloud everyone is mostly the same as in the beginning. Cloud does all of his character growth for the most part in flashbacks of things that happened before the game ever began. He decides to become a SOLDIER as a kid, he kills the mighty Sephiroth as a young man, and then the experiments turn him into a dick. And he's slightly less a dick at the end of everything. Fuck, we all saw Advent Children. He doesn't stop being a dick until the end of THAT. Aerith, Tifa, Barett, Cait Sith, Yufi, & Vincent barely evolve at all during the game. (Incidentally, I think Crisis Core was a vastly superior game than 7 in the character development and emotion side of things.)  I don't know how you guys aren't seeing the significant changes in Tidus outlook on life during the course of the game. Yuna also does some considerable growing up. To a lesser degree you get to see some ok character development in Wakka, Auron and Khimari. Lulu is definitely just eye candy. She was definitely the weakest link in X, though.

As far as game play I enjoyed X more because of the more strategic nature of the combat. The sphere grid was meh, but at least I didn't have to spend ages leveling up materia. I always preferred having a job system anyway.

On the subject of graphics. I really don't give a rat's ass. I don't play RPGs for the visuals.

Now I'd like to point out that we're arguing the merits of two games in the FF series that actually have a connection to each other as opposed to the rest of the series. Kinda ironic.

My final word on the matter is that I think X > 7 as far as story telling, character development, and game play. 7 > X in setting and exploration. That's my opinion anyway.
And 4+6 > 1+2+3+5+7+8+9+10+12.

EDIT: And 12 still should have been packaged as a FFT spin off.

FF7 World = Texas during G. W. Bush governer or USA (or world?) with G. W. Bush as president.
Shinra = Enron/Halliburnton/Blackwater
Reeve = Colin Powell
Heideigger = Dick Cheney
Rufus = ????  If he had a cowboy hat and he pretended to be a retard, he could be GW...
Pres. Shinra = Bush Sr?
Sephiroth = ????
Palmer = Rove (they look alike, and they both seem fucking gay)
Scarlet = Condi?  Kya Kya Khya!
Turks = ????

lol

In writing, there are a number of storytelling devices that are considered serious no-nos.

Ending a story with.. "And I woke up to realize it was just a dream."

Revealing that the antagonist was god all along, (followed by a fight scene.. ha!)

And when you build up these literary offenses around extreme cliches (the father-son relationship, in every way it was presented, a love story that ends in heroic sacrifice, a dead end pilgrimage, a warrior with shame, etc), and combine that with some of the worst dialogue and voice acting ever, it only gets worse.

I get that some of you love X, but honestly, from a creative writing standpoint, it fails in just about every conceivable way. (Not as much as VIII, though). The "character development" is decent, in the ways you've argued, but only because it's following character models that have been beaten into the ground throughout history to the point where it's actually considered irresponsible to fall back on them, from a writing standpoint.

It's fair to say you prefer the gameplay itself, though.

VII, on the other hand, has brilliant storytelling as the foundation to hold up a cliche house. AVALANCHE vs Shinra vs Crazy Villain with unimaginable power is, every way, as cliche as it gets. However, Hojo, Gast, Jenova, the Nibelheim incident, Zack and Cloud's involvement before, during and after the incident, and Tifa's complex relationship with Cloud are all brilliant. I can't elaborate too much now, because I don't have a lot of time, and I've already elaborated on these over at Gamefaqs recently, but Voldemort's understanding is pretty solid.

XII is, in my opinion, the only FF that has literary quality to its depth and characters. I'm seriously going to have to write an essay on this, so I can just start copy-pasting it in discussions like this. I may do that soon.

So you're saying that FF7 is a poor story, wonderfully told.

I'm saying FFVII has an amazing story, with an easily-accessible cliche at the forefront. I'm not sure I'd agree that it was wonderfully told, since so many people (fans and anti-fans alike) only ever focus on the cliche surface when participating in arguments like this.

Hmm...
(remembers some of the dialog in FF7)
Yeah I take that back about the wonderfully told part.  Wonderfully presented maybe.

It was the world that FF7 presented that just destroyed me.   All those people who got post-avatar depression obviously never played video games.

QuoteNow I'd like to point out that we're arguing the merits of two games in the FF series that actually have a connection to each other as opposed to the rest of the series. Kinda ironic.

FF7 and FF10 don't have connections with each other.

QuoteHow can you guys say the Characters in X feel far less emotional?

I didn't say they felt less emotional, I said they weren't developed at all compared to FF7 characters, and are bland as hell. Crying during a cut-scene to show "emotion" doesn't mean the character has been shown to grow over the course of the story, you know?

This is what I said:

QuoteI'm not going to get too much into character development because I think we both agree that Cloud changes alot more than Tidus and that Tidus is alot more punk-ass-bitch (as you said) than Cloud ever was. Tidus does change in FF10 I'd say almost as much as Cloud does, but I never got the feeling from Tidus when he finds out his father is within Sin (and when he FINDS OUT HE"S NOT EVEN REAL) as I got from Cloud when he spends some time in the Lifestream, discovers who he is, and that his entire past is a lie. Tidus' reactions are like "wow this sucks" compared to Cloud, who has some truly bizzare scenes with mind-trip dialogue about himself as a person.

Actually, the more I think about it, the less I think you can begin to compare Cloud to Tidus as a main.

In FF7, even the main villain of the game goes through some massive character transformations, which is more than I can say for FF10's villains...

[/size]

QuoteWhile I'll admit there are some good emotional scenes in 7, the character growth just isn't there. Except for Cloud everyone is mostly the same as in the beginning.

You seem to be confusing "good emotional scenes" for character growth. This is also evident in your previous comment quoted above. Please keep in mind that somebody rolling on the floor crying their heart out can still be a character with ZERO growth in a story.

QuoteAerith, Tifa, Barett, Cait Sith, Yufi, & Vincent barely evolve at all during the game.

WHAT.

Each of those characters you mentioned (except Yuffie and maybe Aerith) goes through their own personal revelation story in FF7, and each one is forced to deal with the truth of their past / present / future in ways that obviously impact their character after they do so. Dude, did you play FF7? Are you sure?

Cait Sith - Is forced to admit to the party that his original plan was to betray them, then realizes who the real bad guy is and is incredibly faithful from then on, after nearly getting wtfowned by his own party members for backstabbery.

Barrett - I'm not even going to get into this one. Did the whole side story with Elena + Shinra, KILLING DYNE, Avalanche, and finally Sephiroth completely fly by your head?

Cid - You didn't mention him so I'm going to assume you recall just how much the game goes into his story and how his attitude changes from when he was a failure to when he finally gets his first space ship off the ground. You can even see how his relationship with his wife changes.

Vincent - This one's too obvious and probably has more character growth than anyone else in FF7. What he really is, Lucrecia, Hojo, the experiments, his attitude change about everything, him almost going crazy because of it... Vincent evolves as a character IMMENSELY. So much so that they were able to make an entire game devoted just to continue his story from FF7.

Red 13 - tl;dr

QuoteYuna also does some considerable growing up. To a lesser degree you get to see some ok character development in Wakka, Auron and Khimari. Lulu is definitely just eye candy. She was definitely the weakest link in X, though.

That's BS. The only character growth any of those do is go "Ohhh well looks like we gotta kill Sin now! Let's do it!!! YEAHH BLITZBALL!!!!!" once they find out Yu Yevon is an evil bastard. Kihmari is an exception to that. But Wakka, Tidus, Lulu are definitely NOT. Jesus Christ those characters are horrible.

You can write pages and pages on the history of each of the FF7 cast just from how much FF7 reveals about them and shows their reactions / transformations to those revelations (Read; Red 13, Cloud, Aeris, Vincent, Tifa, Barret, Cid, Cait Sith, sans Yuffie). I don't think you can say the same for FF10's characters, with the exception of maybe Yunalesca, Tidus' father, and Auron - the ONLY characters in FF10 with anything close to the level of depth as FF7's cast.

Quote from: "Dokurider"

Quote from: "Shade"I won't stop calling it a bad game.

Final Fantasy XII sucks.

Bad things
Political shit story that doesn't  connect our main heroes much. Judges are awsome and are so awsome that they overshadow main characters. The game is WAY too easy. License system is just waste of an time on equipments. HOW THE FUCK CAN'T I GET ENOUGH MONEY AFTER 3 HOURS OF GATHERING MONEY?!?!?!? Music is boring to hear. I have very abusive thing in this game(shall not be mentioned). Battle system is boring. ERYTHING THAT IS MAGIC and ISN'T BUFF MAGIC OR HEALING MAGIC IS USELESS.

Good things
Gambits are make your own AI basicly and IS ONLY FUN PART OF THE GAME WTF!

Gambits = a part of the battle system. Since most of the battle system is about gambits, I don't understand what you are talking about, to the surprise of no one.

Actually, the "Political shit story" does connect with at least Ashe and Basche. They are arguably the main characters. I thought the Judges were forgettable, but the idea of Judges are pretty cool.

Magic, attack magic, would actually still be good end game if it wasn't for the graphical limitations on the PS2. Besides, Magic and statuses becoming useless is a common problem in almost all FFs. Being too easy is a common problem in almost all FFs. Having abusive shortcuts are a common problem in almost all FFs. It's almost like it's SE's design philosophy. FFXII did a good job on making magic and statuses useful for the good part of the game and onward. I would say that FFXII is as hard as FFT. Only easy if you know what you are doing. I don't understand what you are talking about when it comes to License system. My point wasn't that FFXII is a bad game because of the same reasons that most of the modern FFs are bad, my point is that FFXII is not the worst FF game by a long shot. This game is fucking Shakespeare when compared to shit heaps like FF8 and FFX.

90% fighting with gambits and 10% SETTING gambits. I was talking about setting gambits being fun.

WTF! You just said all fucking magic suck in all FF games in the end time??? Ok list of FF games that I have played where magic is usefull during all time(expect magic immune monsters) FF4, FF5, FF7, FF10, FFT.

With gambits and FF12 mist charge(or what ever the name was) makes game too easy. and not using them makes it so alot harder.

I am not talking about shortcuts, I am speaking AI breaking that is easy to find.

FF12 magic is so useless since cause most of the time you can do much as damage and faster, it takes mp that you want to use on healing spells, beccause you don't want buy potions when you are gathering 3 fucking hours to equipment and still not get all of them.

FF10 HAS SO MUCH MORE FUN AND BETTER GAMEPLAY, BETTER MUSIC, I EVEN LIKE THE STORY THAT IS TOLD BETTER THEN FF12 STORY, SO I THINK FF10 STORY IS BETTER! And then when FF12 has bad gameplay mostly and pretty boring story and boring music(expect esper music)

I like more FF8 and FFX-2 more then FF12, cause at least they had good music and better gameplay.

Quote from: "Voldemort"

QuoteNow I'd like to point out that we're arguing the merits of two games in the FF series that actually have a connection to each other as opposed to the rest of the series. Kinda ironic.

FF7 and FF10 don't have connections with each other.

FFX-2 makes a clear hint when the character Shinra talks about developing a way to use the Farplane as an energy source.
In the international version he even tries, but the pyreflies turn him into a fiend. That's when the girls have to fight him to turn him back to normal.
The fact that the humans on planet Gaia (ff7) are specifically said to have come from somewhere else are the 'in' Square used to make the connection between the two games. Shinra even speculates that it will take a hundred (or more?) years to perfect a method. In short, FF7 & 10 happen in the same universe, but on different planets and in different time periods. It is inferred that the Al Bhed, Shinra, is the founder of the Shin-ra Corporation from FF7. It is also, thus, inferred that the nature of the Farplane and the Lifestream is similar if not the same.

I'm not gonna jump into the FF7 vs 10 debate fully, but I will say that I found FF7's story and characters to be the opposite of compelling, whereas in 10 I was at least mildly interested in seeing the ending.


It's like comparing the various (serious) Dracula movies. Yeah some of them approach (but never quite make) halfway decent but in the end they all suck* so why bother debate which is better?

*(of note I actually liked FF5 and 6's story, so it's not a perfect analogy)

QuoteFFX-2 makes a clear hint when the character Shinra talks about developing a way to use the Farplane as an energy source. In the international version he even tries, but the pyreflies turn him into a fiend. That's when the girls have to fight him to turn him back to normal.
The fact that the humans on planet Gaia (ff7) are specifically said to have come from somewhere else are the 'in' Square used to make the connection between the two games. Shinra even speculates that it will take a hundred (or more?) years to perfect a method. In short, FF7 & 10 happen in the same universe, but on different planets and in different time periods. It is inferred that the Al Bhed, Shinra, is the founder of the Shin-ra Corporation from FF7. It is also, thus, inferred that the nature of the Farplane and the Lifestream is similar if not the same.

That's not a connection between games, that's called a reference... much like many FF's share with eachother. It's not ACTUALLY Shinra from FF7. It's not ACTUALLY the lifestream- those are just hints they are throwing out there for fans, the game doesn't make any clear connection between the two.

Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross are connected - their storylines are blatantly explained to be part of a whole. FF10 and FF10-2 are connected, yes, but FF7 and FF10? No. FFT10 has references to FF7, much like Vagrant Story has FFT references.

Since you didn't bother to respond to the other 90% of my post about why FF7 > FF10 in character development and story department (arguably two of the most important parts of an RPG) I'll assume you agree with that part.

Quote90% fighting with gambits and 10% SETTING gambits. I was talking about setting gambits being fun.

I disagree. The fun comes from seeing those gambits in action.

QuoteWTF! You just said all fucking magic suck in all FF games in the end time??? Ok list of FF games that I have played where magic is usefull during all time(expect magic immune monsters) FF4, FF5, FF7, FF10, FFT.

By almost all FF games, I meant most of the modern FFs, and I was referring to attack magic. (7 through 13). Since I've never played IV or V, I'll have to pass on those.

FFVII is a typically example. True, you do use Summons frequently, Knights of the Round Table in particular, but you can only use those a limited times amount of times in battle. But attack magic like Holy, Flare and Ultima are pointless when compared to what Melee can do. What's the point of attack magic doing 9999 damage once when I can equip 2x attack and attack for 9999 damage twice. Or 4x attack and attack for 9999 damage 4 times, and not expend a crapload of MP in the process. I'd rather save my MP for buffing, summoning, or reviving. Let's not even talk about Limit Breaks. And even then, buffing magic falls flat when it comes to monster skill and items. MIghty Guard and White Wind comes to mind. All without no MP cost. And in the grand scheme of things, most of the time, you don't even need to be buffed end game because it's usually overkill, or it won't do you any good. Even going through the game, I rarely buffed myself. It was more productive to keep attacking, and occasionally stop to heal up, then to stop to buff up. Status Magic was a joke. Completely outclassed by Bad Breath.

Attack magic remains pretty useful for a lot longer in FFX then in FF7. Right up until you get the ultimate weapons. Again, what's the point of attack magic when you can just use Quick Strike and Summons and Overdrives(and no, I don't consider FFX summons a type of magic)? But unlike FF7, Buff magic stays useful throughout the game. Status Magic and statuses in general are at least useful for a little while.

You should know that by the endgame, the only magic you'll be using are Time Magic, Magic Sword and maybe Golem Magic when it comes to FFT. I do not consider Math Skill a type of magic, since it has none of the limitations that Magic typically has. Math Skill complete outclasses everything.

QuoteWith gambits and FF12 mist charge(or what ever the name was) makes game too easy. and not using them makes it so alot harder.

You are wrong. With FF12, I actually had to THINK about what I was bringing into a battle. With most FFs (by that, I mean the modern FFs), I rarely had to change my gear, unless I was upgrading it. All I needed was the most powerful weapons possible to just power right through everything. You can't do that with FF12, unless you've been chaining Dustia. I'd like to see someone just cut their way through a boss like Elder Wyrm without being ridiculously over leveled. FF12 may not be that hard when compared to other non-FF games, but against other FFs? FFXII is much harder than the rest.

QuoteI am not talking about shortcuts, I am speaking AI breaking that is easy to find.

Why don't you just come out and say it, because I have no idea what you are talking about. Whatever you're not discussing, it's not going to spoil anyone with access to Gamefaqs.

QuoteFF12 magic is so useless since cause most of the time you can do much as damage and faster, it takes mp that you want to use on healing spells, beccause you don't want buy potions when you are gathering 3 fucking hours to equipment and still not get all of them.

Yes, magic is a precious resource, but I've used offensive PLENTY of times. Status Magic is down right necessary (until you get Nipolia [sic]). I was recently playing though FFXII gaining levels in Lhusu Mines against those damned skeletons. Many times, so many will respawn, that I was often in serious danger of being wiped out. If it got that bad, I would just whip out Immobilize and start Don't Move-ing them, so then, I can concentrate on a few, kill them, then finish off the immobile ones with WITH MAGIC. Besides, all you have to do is just move your character around to regain MP, so you can use it in an offensive manner too. The Mist Charge System is blessing, because it allows you to actually use magic.

I will admit that in the really difficult battles, you aren't going to cast offensive magic until you gotten control of the battle. Nevertheless, you are seriously underestimating the usefulness of offensive magic in FFXII. Why waste so much precious MP healing yourself and buffing while fighting enemies with melee, when you can just target them with a spell and pelt them while running away until they are dead? And only lose a little bit of MP in the process?

QuoteFF10 HAS SO MUCH MORE FUN AND BETTER GAMEPLAY, BETTER MUSIC,

I HAVE TO DISAGREE, BUT TO EACH OF THEIR OWN.

QuoteI EVEN LIKE THE STORY THAT IS TOLD BETTER THEN FF12 STORY, SO I THINK FF10 STORY IS BETTER!

I THINK FFXII HAS A BETTER STORY BECAUSE THE CHARACTERS AREN'T SO INCREDIBLE STOCK AND ACTUALLY HAVE SOME KIND OF SUBTLETY. AND FFX HAS SOME OF THE WORST VOICE ACTING IN RECENT MEMORY, WHILE FFXII HAS SOME OF THE BEST VOICE ACTING IN RECENT MEMORY. AND FRANKLY, I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS GOING ON IN FFXII, BUT I WAS INTERESTED ANYWAYS, RATHER THAN FFX, WHO'S STORY I EASILY UNDERSTOOD, BUT WASN'T INTERESTED IN THE SLIGHTEST. I'D RATHER HAVE A STORY I DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND BUT IS FAR MORE INTERESTING, THEN ONE THAT I UNDERSTAND BUT DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT. /CAPLOCKS

QuoteAnd then when FF12 has bad gameplay mostly and pretty boring story and boring music(expect esper music)

I like more FF8 and FFX-2 more then FF12, cause at least they had good music and better gameplay.

k

I'm inclined to ride dokurider's doku.

Thanks for responding to Shade's ignorance and CAPSLOX with everything I wanted to say. Saved me a lot of time!

Fun fact: Balthier references Mark Twain at one point: "Rumors of his/my death were greatly exaggerated."

Quote from: "Voldemort"That's not a connection between games, that's called a reference... much like many FF's share with eachother. It's not ACTUALLY Shinra from FF7. It's not ACTUALLY the lifestream- those are just hints they are throwing out there for fans, the game doesn't make any clear connection between the two.

Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross are connected - their storylines are blatantly explained to be part of a whole. FF10 and FF10-2 are connected, yes, but FF7 and FF10? No. FFT10 has references to FF7, much like Vagrant Story has FFT references.

Actually, as much as I hate for X(-2) to connect with VII, I vaguely remember that they ARE supposed to be officially connected due to what Vanya said.

It's been a year or two from when I remember hearing that, so I may be wrong (or may have heard wrong, though I don't think so), but I think they're officially connected...for some stupid reason. I'm currently still working on my patch a lot, but I'll try to confirm this if someone doesn't by the end of the week (despite wanting the FFVII vs. FFX talk to just end).

So it isn't like every FF game having a character named Cid.

After reading some info on the ff10 ultimania, I think that FF10 was meant to be a "Sequel" afterall (vaguely though), in the sense that

QuoteShinra of the Gullwings wanted to try and use the material/essence of the Farplane as energy (essentially Mako) of Spira. 1000 years later, Shinra's ancestors, now having moved to the Planet of VII, succeed with mako extraction. that is President Shinra.

I still FF7 is the superior RPG, though, the connection isn't relevant to what I was trying to say.

Quote from: "Voldemort"After reading some info on the ff10 ultimania, I think that FF10 was meant to be a "Sequel" afterall (vaguely though), in the sense that

QuoteShinra of the Gullwings wanted to try and use the material/essence of the Farplane as energy (essentially Mako) of Spira. 1000 years later, Shinra's ancestors, now having moved to the Planet of VII, succeed with mako extraction. that is President Shinra.

What?

@Arch: I didn't mention it as a counter argument I mentioned it because it struck me as kind of Ironic, as I said.

@Doku: Exactly what Arch says and I mentioned. FF7 is the far flung future of FFX & FFX-2, officially.

Sphere Grid in FF10, Spheres that gives players "power," so to speak. You could say they could have evolved into Materia in FF7.

Ok now back on topic, I hated the battle system the first time I played it. It was confusing and it didn't have much flashyness to it other then strikes and some magic. But as you play it grows on you and etc. The leveling grid didn't make much sense sadly. The story doesn't flesh out well enough, and yes it does have some good parts, but the semi-monotone voice setting that they put into this game to give it a medieval feel really kills a lot of emotional prowess.

Quote from: "Dokurider"

Quote from: "Voldemort"FF7 has awesome art

In battle, yes. Outside of battle, which is were you are 75% of the time, hell no. The characters look absolutely hideous, even for the time.

When it comes to RPG's I put far more stock in the battle system than any other aspect of the game. FFVII's battle system is very rough and unpolished and unbalanced. FFX is far more finished, with much better balance.

OK now I can agree with you about FFXII and its stupid hate base. But FFVII has good art.

Art =/= graphics.

Even if the graphics are bad, that doesnt mean that the art design is.

And no ones likes someone who only cares about graphics.

How is FF10's battle system more "balanced" than FF7's?


I can run my guys around the sphere grid a couple of times and turn them into gods, just like I can grind away at FF7 and make them all very powerful. Both games are easy to break... is that what you mean when you say "balance"?

Quote from: "Voldemort"How is FF10's battle system more "balanced" than FF7's?


I can run my guys around the sphere grid a couple of times and turn them into St. Ajora, just like I can grind away at FF7 and make them all very powerful. Both games are easy to break... is that what you mean when you say "balance"?

This has nothing to do with the topic, but I really like the word filter. St. Ajora just has a much better ring to it.

Quote from: "Voldemort"How is FF10's battle system more "balanced" than FF7's?


I can run my guys around the sphere grid a couple of times and turn them into St. Ajora, just like I can grind away at FF7 and make them all very powerful. Both games are easy to break... is that what you mean when you say "balance"?

I actually kinds agree with you there. The only thing that 10 has more balanced is that it doesn't have a crazy-ass, god-killing, summon loop.
12's only balance issue is that the offensive spells quickly become useless and that if the player decides not to use gambits the game becomes much more difficult.
But, then again, higher difficulty might be a good thing.

Knights of the Round is out-classed by Fury in FF7... doesn't even compare to that or to stuff like lucky 7777's

straight chain 9999 limits every turn :/

FF12 = 99,999 quick attacks

in that respect, both are imbalanced as hell

In FF6, with proper manipulation of the RNG you can kill any enemy instantly with setzer's slots. Instant kill, essentially infinite damage.

I believe there's something in place that restricts you from using it on Kefka and a couple other bosses... but then vanish/doom works against most everything, so...


Those games' ultimate attacks are wonderfully balanced in comparison :)

i have the original version but my computer is nowhere near strong enough to handle a ps2 emu....

Im a month or so late to the party, but i wanted ot throw my two cents in. after doing that 3 megabyte text file on why FF7 sucks(while point out good points about it being a sucky game, i did over exaggerate some of the features to troll some fanboys), i looked back on all my arguements, and realized there is a SHIT TON FF7 did wrong, but there is alot it did right.

I enrolled for a game programming degree at De'vry, i start next month. And analyzing things like this thoroughly, is a hobby of mine. Hopefully im gonna put this hobby to use~

Quote from: "Voldemort"

Quote from: "Kaijyuu"I blame it on being an early game for the ps1, but largely I found FF7's environments to be murky unnavigable messes.

Horrible looking game. At least in the NES games I could see what things were.

the in-battle environments suck

outside of battle not so much

No one should be judging a game based on its engine anymore(i did not quote what you said about the engine, but its in the topic). But i do have some qualms with the engine, as well as the settings. Alot of the areas(the two ones im thinking of are the cables that you climb on your way to Shinra, and the caves behind nibbleheim) Have serious pathing and timing issues. The cables have that dreaded jump onto a swinging cable to the other pathway. I did it recently, and it took me 14 minutes. And the caves have a dark enough layout, it makes it hard to see walkways, passages, and ways to get to wooden planks to get a treasure chest(i think thats in the cave im talking about)

Quote from: "Bastard Poetry"In writing, there are a number of storytelling devices that are considered serious no-nos.

Ending a story with.. "And I woke up to realize it was just a dream."

Another very bad cliche is to throw the hero into a memory wipe so that THEN he starts to bring his personality into fruition. He no longer has his whiny habits, he basically can start himself from scratch(like victims of a stroke lose their memory, but there are cases where turrets has vanished, or twitches and other habits cease completly)

Im sorry, FF7 has great story elements(although very hard to follow, since most of the time it doesnt give adeqaute information), but Cloud, along with some of the ones you mentioned, has no personality growth. Cait Sith, with his traitorism, Barret, with his town casting him out and whatnot, hell even yuffie with that damned tower in the back of wutai. They all have growth, that you notice. Granted, yuffie doesnt grow much, because she wasnt given as much to grow with as the others...but Cloud has no excuse. Throughout the entire game, up until the memory wipe, he fluxuates. First he is silent and badass and doesnt care about anyone, then wants to be a great leader, then doesnt care about anyone. then cares greatly for his friends. Then Aeris dies, and he gets all angry.... the pattern continues... even hours later, when he tries to push the party away in the airship, cause he doesnt want them to get hurt fighting sephiroth, even though about an hour of gameplay earlier, he said he needed them to defeat sephiroth.

You can argue that he has gone through alot, or maybe he had a mental breakdown... but the phrase "what doesnt kill you, makes you stronger" comes to mind... And being Bi-Polar is not an excuse for great character development.

I will agree, that most of Voldemorts points stand strong, as opposed to ff10, but the main character doesnt grow much....

Thats not to say tidus doesnt poor growth, i havent played it in a very long time, and will make no comment on that.

Also, im sorry for the typos, my right mouse button isnt working in firefox(it stops bringing up the menus when i right click in a text box), so i cant use spellcheck

Tidus has a fair amount of character growth, but a lot of it is very subtle.  At least the impression I get is that he is a very good liar.  Considering he wasn't at all surprised about his ultimate fate, I doubt he was as naive as he acted, and it's clear he purposely hid what was going to happen from the others.  He went from being a whiny brat to being a careful (albeit still selfish) manipulator.  At least he did get over his daddy issues, so some of the development is definitely of the positive sort.

Also I thought the writing with Tidus' parents was fantastic.  You first get Tidus' perspective which suggested Jecht was a heartless bastard and his mother died from grief.  The gradual revelation of the truth was stunning.  It seemed pretty bold to me as well as I'm still unaware of any other stories that have had the mother being the worthless of the two parents.  It's even eerie considering that to forgive his father, Tidus probably had to come to the damning realization that his mother was the one at fault.  It's no wonder he held that grudge for so long.  I would never want to admit such a thing about my mother either.