I have been considering that speed growth is an element of FFT that causes many problems for no particular benefit. The decrease in usefulness of magic, dance, sing, charge with level occur in large part due to their fixed time for execution while physical attacks can be performed instantly by characters with increasing speed. Each ability can be made balanced, but only within a certain expected range of speed values. For example charge +7 used at the beginning of the game will execute at approximately speed 7 (14 clock-ticks) and can be used to hit an enemy that has just taken a turn. Even without grinding, by the end of Chapter 2 the archer can most likely not use this skill without having to skip his next turn, let alone before the target moves.
Note that I am not advocating an abolishment of stat growth with level. The consideration is that when 80% of all classes are growing speed at the same rate, there is not a meaningful progression of characters in relation to one another, such as how a melee class's PA will scale well in comparison with their target's HP while a mage's might not. This idea is coming partly from other games where speed and movement rate were not increased by level but only by skills and equipment, while other parameters developed normally.
I am just curious what this community's thoughts are on this topic, and also if there's a better method of implementation that simply cranking the SpC values for all classes by some ratio.
I find it far more convenient to leave everything the way it is and just make magic, charges, and dances charge faster (without reducing spell power or hit chance). That, and restricting abilities that add in-battle speed, lower enemy speed, or deal instant magic-like damage/effects (punch art, elemental, throw) would be sufficient. Ideally, you could even add in an ASM hack to make short charge affect charge/sing/dance/jump.
I actually am quite fond of this idea. I have never taken it into account this way
If we leveled off growths, so that speed never naturally exceeded say...10, then spells would have a more varying range of charge times on them. If everyone had a speed of 6, i think using spells like flare might be more viable, and everyone would still be receiving turns at the same rate as if everyones speed was 14.
Granted it would take alot of tweaking, speed boosting equipment might become OP.
Plus, if this proves useful, i can lift alot of the restrictions i have on spells (limited range, large MP, to balance small CT), and NOT frustrate myself on this ASM again.
Figures how the first topic i look at in months of not being on already fills me with ideas and excitement =D
CT Speed CT w/SC Speed w/SC
1 100 1 100
2 50 1 100
3 34 2 50
4 25 2 50
5 20 3 34
6 17 3 34
7 15 4 25
8 13 4 25
9 12 5 20
10 10 5 20
11 10 6 17
12 9 6 17
13 8 7 15
14 8 7 15
15 7 8 13
I worked up this table a while back, seemed like it would be relevant to a discussion on balancing ct and speed. I think the start point for any balancing would be to make the slowest spell on short charge of equal speed to the fastest possible character and go from there.
SB!
wb!
@topic: WELCOME TO FFH, WHERE ALL YOUR DREAMS COME TRUE. Agreed fully. Speed scaling of the current magnitude (and then future stacking with both +Sp equips and hastes) makes balancing the CTR of anything and status durations nigh-impossible. If the charge time is too fast (balanced around end game) then in early game it'll be too good and vice versa. And, yes, status durations are a pain too.
Starting out at 6 sp, you average a turn every 17 ticks. Protect (e.g.) thus lasts... two rounds. But when you're at endgame with 14 speed and haste (5 ticks a turn), a single protect application lasts for almost seven rounds. The same holds true for Don't Act and all the other statii inbetween.
Quoteand also if there's a better method of implementation that simply cranking the SpC values for all classes by some ratio.
That's my plan with my upcoming patch. You could probably dull the multipliers down by a similar increment:
1-99 as a 100 SPC with 100 SPM = 6 vs 11
1-99 as a 190 SPC with 100 SPM = 6 vs 9
1-99 as a 100 SPC with 50 SPM = 3 vs 5
Only difference is that reduced growth but stable multiplier devalues the power of +Sp equips (6 to 7 is a smaller jump than 3 to 4).
In my patch, no one will have the capacity for a speed higher than ~11. I've been wanting to level out speed growth since before I came to FFhacktics.
Do we currently know how to ASM edit the CT code? Because if so, we could potentially put CT penalties for certain "broken" skills, and/or put the CT add phase on a diminishing return (so all speed past X counts as only some fraction of the normal conversion rate of 1 speed = 1 CT).
Another fix would be to fix item code to allow negative stats (so you can have armor reduce speed so you can't just use equip armor on ninja without burdening yourself). That stacked on top of PA or HP nerfs for the likes of ninja/mime (or even innate immunity to haste) could work (though the latter admittedly sounds a bit forced).
Another idea would be to increase the difference in hierarchy for spells. In other words, customize fire1/fire2 to be used primarily for early mages (or simply deny higher magic to wizard and rename wizard) and then customize fire 3/4/melt/summons and most status effects (which hold their value more than damage spells as one levels up) to be primarily used in the late game. Make the job class requirements to the higher level classes difficult (as in mage + physical class = advanced mage or physical fighter or an increase in the job levels needed to unlock new classes with an increase in the amount of JP needed to reach the next job level). If all else fails, you can even set differential job requirements between the two types (so mages are easier to unlock) or make some unit classes (monk, ninja, calculator, mime) enemy only.
I personally don't like the idea of flattening the speed growth curve, though mages and archers really do need it.
I'm of the opinion that no charge attack is absurdly powerful enough to warrent having to cast it for 2+ turns (least not in vanilla). So, either spells would have to get faster as the caster's speed increases, or speed simply couldn't ever surpass the longest casting spell. The latter is much easier to implement (though with some issues involving speed boosting equipment).
@formerdeathcorps
although negative stats aren't possible, you can achieve the same effect by simply giving all lighter armors a speed bonus, as the difference between +0 and +4 is about the same as the difference between -2 and +2 (only approximately, because the higher base speed gets, the less each point of +speed is worth).
@Kaijyuu
Although I agree with you that what is probably the best way of balancing spell ct is to limit unit speed to not exceed the slowest spell (or the slowest spell on short charge), there is another way, which is simply to boost spell effectiveness such that it IS worth it to spend such time casting it, either directly by boosting spell damage, or indirectly by lowering PA or boosting MA across the board.
[EDIT] Oh, and raising the rate of increase of the Charge skillset by removing charge +2 and +4, while also keeping ct low, so something like the following
Charge+ +1 +3 +5 +7 +10 +20
Ct 2 3 4 5 6 7
QuoteDo we currently know how to ASM edit the CT code? Because if so, we could potentially put CT penalties for certain "broken" skills, and/or put the CT add phase on a diminishing return (so all speed past X counts as only some fraction of the normal conversion rate of 1 speed = 1 CT).
The biggest problem with that is that the game would be unable to calculate spells landing on the AT; Jump is very similar in these regards -- with a speed-based CTR you're on your own to determine if a spell will land or not or if someone else will get a midcharge turn and gib you.
@philsov
Is there a particular reason you've selected 190 as your SpC? Wouldn't a value closer to 255 allow you to avoid a natural Spd of 9 from occurring altogether except in quick classes?
This means that the highest speed to be "reasonably" considered for charge purposes is 10, a medium class with full boosts or a fast class with boosts who is almost certainly not using a high level magic. This raises my next question--should you "need" short charge to operate high power spells late in the game? This requires the sacrifice of magic attack up, diminishing most of the benefit from the higher level spell. On the other hand, it is a trade off since mages are mostly freed from their MP limitations late in the game.
I agree status effects need to be boosted simultaneously. I've already been expecting to grant larger area/lower mana cost/faster cast/higher success rate to offset the (relatively) decreased duration.
QuoteWouldn't a value closer to 255 allow you to avoid a natural Spd of 9 from occurring altogether except in quick classes?
At 255 growth 100 SPMers are at 8 sp with the 120s at 9.
At 190 growth 9 speed crops up right before 99, and even on the 120 SPM classes its only 10 Sp at level 99.
Still a gap of 1 speed, with the slower units gaining more by proxy from a piece of +sp rather than the opposite. It's a sweet spot, imo, without toying with the initial raw Sp stat or multipliers.
There's nothing fundamentally wrong with 9 speed in the first place -- it's all relative, really -- you just need to take into account base speed, any +sp equips, and haste when creating the upper CTR limit. Juggling between 13 and 15 speed is a minor thing.