Final Fantasy Hacktics

I wonder if I could save money by buying a bus ticket to Mexico.

Last year I was sent to the emergency room when a newb (but hot) bartender freaked and called the cops when I started barfing all over the bathroom.  For some reason, they decided to give me a CAT scan.  I owe that hospital about $3000.

$3000 dollars.

$600 for ambulance ride.
$1200 for CAT scan and various tests.
$1000 for emergency treatment.
$200 for an IV and a barf bucket.

Of course, I'm not paying it, so I don't know why I'm still pissed off.  Oh yeah, because that $3000 dollars ruined my credit score, so I can't get a payment plan for getting a shattered tooth pulled.

Anybody who thinks I'm a piece of shit for not attempting to pay never worked for minimum wage.

So, as it stands, I now have:

1.  A bunch of suspect looking moles on my body which I can't afford to get biopsied,

2.  A shattered tooth (now I know the meaning of Raging Ache),

3.  A botched 8 year old hiatial (misspelled?) hernia repair which feels like it's going to give whenever I rake sand traps, and

4. Absolutely no way of getting any of this fixed, or even half-assed fixed so I can neglect it for a few more years.


Does anyone else get the feeling that all the poor people are being pushed out of the U.S.?  No, fuck that, all the poor and middle class?  'Cause the middle class are the ones being fucked hardest by this.  I don't care if I Non-Pay the fucking hospital, because I have nothing to lose, being poor as hell already; but if a guy with one of those mortgages with the rates that change (fluctuating rates?) Non-Pays the hospital, his credit rating drops and, if I'm not mistaken, his interest rate goes up.

...

TL;DR
God damn you Candians and your soshulized health care!
*jealousy*

Let's hope and pray that Obama steps up to the plate and gets something passed... And let's hope the Republicans all fall off the face of the Earth! Worthless whores to the corporations... they've corrupted the minds of the American people with fear for far too long! Unfortunately the Democrats aren't really defending themselves...

Obama's reform is identical to the UK's National Health Service's scheme.

Good on paper until you consider health service expenditure outweighs the taxes put into healthcare.

My dad was told by a dentist he had to redo the old treatement he had, but then he ''accidently'' destroyed the tooth out, and my dad now has to pay about 3000$ for a NERVE AND TOOTH REPAIR. Meanwhile, he suffers like fuck.

Quote from: "LastingDawn"Let's hope and pray that Obama steps up to the plate and gets something passed... And let's hope the Republicans all fall off the face of the Earth! Worthless whores to the corporations... they've corrupted the minds of the American people with fear for far too long! Unfortunately the Democrats aren't really defending themselves...

Wow, I never thought I'd see you make such a black and white statement.  There's both good and bad in both parties, and anyone who fails to admit that is either a liar or a fool.

Do you have to pull a tooth or a root? How shattered is it? I ask because most dentists in Miami will pull a root and sew up the hole for like $50 - $60.

Just strap it to a door and have someone slam it.

It worked for your grandparents, it'll work for you.

I lol'd.

I live in Australia. Once, I had a CT Scan, Chest X-ray and Ultrasound done and it cost me a grand total of 180 dollars. Why would you get a mole biospied? Can't you just get it cut right out?

Quote3. A botched 8 year old hiatial (misspelled?) hernia repair which feels like it's going to give whenever I rake sand traps, and

Hiatal, and ouch just went into detail on those today in class.

QuoteLet's hope and pray that Obama steps up to the plate and gets something passed... And let's hope the Republicans all fall off the face of the Earth! Worthless whores to the corporations... they've corrupted the minds of the American people with fear for far too long! Unfortunately the Democrats aren't really defending themselves...

Way to go LD. I think it is nice that Republucans have morals and beliefs. The problem is those morals and beliefs are fucked up. If their ideas and jibber jabber made any since at all, I would have no problem with them. I am an outspoken Democrat(very liberal), my best friend however is a mid ranged Republican. He is very religious yet his political ideas are at least respectable. The party seems to be shuffling towards the right turning most Elephants into Donkeys. A daunting change I know, but it is happening. That is also why the Democrats majority is split. Once upon a time a good few of them where not Democratic at all.

EDIT: http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/200909 ... tico/26970 (http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20090910/pl_politico/26970)

This is a good article for looking at Republican political antics.

Just shout "You lie!" and hope people agree.

QuoteI live in Australia. Once, I had a CT Scan, Chest X-ray and Ultrasound done and it cost me a grand total of 180 dollars. Why would you get a mole biospied? Can't you just get it cut right out?

The biopsy would be to see if it is malignant or not. Even if you cut out a malignant mole the underlying problem is still there.


Hope you can work things out DitRtA.

What i mean is, if you show up at the doctor here and ask about a mole, they'll probably just whip the thing off regardless. Then they look at it to see if there was any malignancy.

I'm not sure how the procedure goes. Either way you get the same result. I like your method better though.

Bush totally fucked over America.

On topic, it's crazy for a country like America to not have free health care.

I'm not sure I could ever take a knife and cut something like a mole out of me :X

Then again, I did remove one of my own warts... burned it out with a paper-clip thin rod of metal and a flame to heat it with. That didn't really hurt though.

Unless they're really big, moles and skin tabs don't really hurt much when removed either by fire or ice. Using a blade stings a bit.

I tried to cut a mole off that was growing on the side of my... torso?  Hip?  Anyways, I ended up just getting a pair of pliers and ripping it off.

I'm not particularly bothered by the sight of my own blood, but being both the cutter and the cutee is not something I can do.

Something that always bothered me...
Has anyone noticed that the Republican party seemingly has the same platform as other conservative religious political groups, even though their goal is the destruction of those supposedly opposing groups?

There's the conservative Christian Republicans here in the USA,
The Taleban and it's cousins throughout the Muslim and Arab world,
There's some party in India terrorizing animists, who aren't even Hindu to begin with, who convert to Christianity,
There's the Neo-Confucian movement in ancient China I think Lasting Dawn mentioned once,

All these groups want to get and keep power, supposedly for the good of their consituents, by any means they can get away with.

Every last one of these groups opposes education.  Here, and throughout the Muslim world, it's the anti-evolution schtick.  I don't know what they oppose in India, but I do know they're more interested in what young people, especially young women, are doing, saying, and wearing, than they are in getting these kids an education or a career.

They are all opposed to any sort of women's liberation.  Say what you will about the abortion debate, but unless you adobt a kid yourself or you are a women, you have no right to an opinion.  (getting off topic...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing)
The mathematician who developed codebreaking tools to defeat the Nazi's Enigma, was persecuted by his own country for being gay.

Anyways, the same image/idea keeps popping up.  In FFT, it was the Glabodos Church, which made a deal with the devil and committed every crime we have a name for to sieze power.

Archetype!  That's what I was looking for.

Rush Limbaugh said something like, "maybe we (the republican party) should fight the Democrats like insurgents" a few months ago.  Mayb the best response is to consider this a counter-insurgency...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-insurgency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-insurgency)
1. Identify the enemy and its reasons for existence.
2. Co-ordinate the resources and personnel of all sections of the establishment against it.
3. Contain the enemy and wear it down tactically.
4. Isolate and frustrate it in every way, politically and militarily.
5. Destroy it.


1. Identify the enemy and the reasons for it's existence?
Who is fighting health care reform in the United States of America and why are they doing this?  Who and what is supporting them?

Help me answer these questions.  Even if this is just a thought exercise, it will make me feel better, at least.

Also, I bet my left testicle that guy from South Carolina who said, "You lie!", to Obama when he was giving that speech is getting campaign funds from lobbyists for HMO's.  I think they are the enemy, and they are using the Republican Party to frustrate Obama and to muddy the issue.

BTW, I'm not trying to be Obama's or the Democrat's personal army here.  I just wanna do something besides sit here and bitch about my life.

EDIT
lol, I just keep making these fucking speeches...

Quote from: "death is the road to awe"Also, I bet my left testicle that guy from South Carolina who said, "You lie!", to Obama when he was giving that speech is getting campaign funds from lobbyists for HMO's.

Actually his political future is in question. Both Democrats and Republicans agree that what he did was not only completely stupid, but that is was also political suicide.

I don't care whether he is white or black. The President is the President dammit. If your gonna stand behind something at least stand behind your leader, or you make the whole country look like a bunch of fucktards.

Even in the worst parts of his Presidency I was willing to support George W. Bush as our leader even if I didn't agree with his agenda. No if I, a Democrat, can support Bush throughout that entire mess why can't people except Obama. It's 9 fucking months into his term and people still question his birth status. Give it a break, this is the U.S. government we're talking about. I'm sure they did a very thorough investigation of his past, and if there was even a shadow of a doubt he would not have made it to the campaigning process.

EDIT: Sorry, bit of an off topic rant.

You ripped off your own mole? Shit dude. You know, if it's really that bad over there perhaps getting the fuck out of the country would be a good move

I'd hold off a bit on jumping ship to see how the health care bill goes.
After the bitch slap the Prez gave everyone in his address to congress I'm a bit more confident shit might get a bit better.

QuoteSomething that always bothered me...
Has anyone noticed that the Republican party seemingly has the same platform as other conservative religious political groups, even though their goal is the destruction of those supposedly opposing groups?

There's the conservative Christian Republicans here in the USA,
The Taleban and it's cousins throughout the Muslim and Arab world,
There's some party in India terrorizing animists, who aren't even Hindu to begin with, who convert to Christianity,
There's the Neo-Confucian movement in ancient China I think Lasting Dawn mentioned once,

All these groups want to get and keep power, supposedly for the good of their consituents, by any means they can get away with.

Hmm, well the Neo Confucianists aren't really trying to get any power, they aren't a religious institution, the times of Empire is long past, they're only teachings, there's no God, or gods, not even dieties, just the simple respect one owes to the their family. Due to time these lessons have been watered down, especially in the dealings with women and the discrimination of foreigners. In that respect Confucianism runs the opposite of Taoism, you know, the more I think about it, perhaps the two, Taoism and Confucianism, can be likened to Democrats and Republicans. The Taoist teachings are very loose and free, it is as simple as living with the earth, and doing good because it is good (nothing objective, just simple common sense such as feeding a starving person, sheltering the poor, the basics of human civility), no promise of heaven, Confucianism actually stresses the importance of education fully, it's flaws are mere points of outdated jibber-jabber that no longer exists in it's current form. So it's difficult to say what the Neo Confucianism brings to the table that is bad, really. As it has indoctrinated it's first female leader, it's obvious things are changing on that front.

QuoteEvery last one of these groups opposes education.  Here, and throughout the Muslim world, it's the anti-evolution schtick.  I don't know what they oppose in India, but I do know they're more interested in what young people, especially young women, are doing, saying, and wearing, than they are in getting these kids an education or a career.

They are all opposed to any sort of women's liberation.  Say what you will about the abortion debate, but unless you adobt a kid yourself or you are a women, you have no right to an opinion.  (getting off topic...)

Excluding the Confucianists (that can be more ascertained to a political party more so then a "religion"), that all seems pretty spot on Except the part on India, I knew a girl from India once, grew up there, had her full education there, she said the schooling was Worse over here then it is there, so they've made a lot of progress with that. I fully agree with you on a womans right to choose. People who oppose that simply can't see the truth that we have too many people on this planet as it is! We don't need more!

Quotehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing

The mathematician who developed codebreaking tools to defeat the Nazi's Enigma, was persecuted by his own country for being gay.

Anyways, the same image/idea keeps popping up.  In FFT, it was the Glabodos Church, which made a deal with the devil and committed every crime we have a name for to sieze power.

Archetype!  That's what I was looking for.

Rush Limbaugh said something like, "maybe we (the republican party) should fight the Democrats like insurgents" a few months ago.  Mayb the best response is to consider this a counter-insurgency...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-insurgency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-insurgency)
1. Identify the enemy and its reasons for existence.
2. Co-ordinate the resources and personnel of all sections of the establishment against it.
3. Contain the enemy and wear it down tactically.
4. Isolate and frustrate it in every way, politically and militarily.
5. Destroy it.

1. Identify the enemy and the reasons for it's existence?
Who is fighting health care reform in the United States of America and why are they doing this?  Who and what is supporting them?

Very astute questions.

1a. The people fighting Health Care is ironically the Health Care lobbyists themselves, they have bought off a Large number of Republicans and a portion of Democrats with funds to their election campaigns, as the saying goes, follow the money and you'll find the root. They have prevented true reform in this country for decades now, and they won't stop now.
The reason is obvious, they fear that any Health Care Reform will stop them from exploiting the very people who use their service, Especially if mandates are formed on allowing pre-existing conditions.

1b. The support is coming from within, at the top of all of these scare tactics at the end of the day it's the every day working man against the big pharmacueticals that want to keep everything the same, ripping off the nation as they go.

Quote2. Co-ordinate the resources and personnel of all sections of the establishment against it.

2. The current goal of the Republican Party, playing the puppets to the companies that have held dominion over us for decades now. This is what the month of August was about, they wanted to scare everyone into believing Death Panels, and many other absurd rhetoric that is Plainly not true.  I must question the President's reason for choosing those six for the "Gang of Six" I can see why he chose Snowe, she's been a very good rallying point so far to show an extent of bi-partisan attempts.

Max Baucus (Leader of the Gang of Six on the Democrats side) has received more then any other Democrat from the big companies, apparently on Capitol Hill he's known as the "Senator from K-Street", saying that his campaign contributions barely come from Montana.

Chuck Grassley, a "moderate" Republican who was a wolf in sheep's clothing. (He was a close friend of Ted Kennedy) He is the official leader of the Gang of Six. He celebrated with his constituents when end of life advising, being covered was taken out.  I suppose Obama was just fooled by his act...

They are using their Republican tools to their highest extent, they want this bill Killed, this will not only save their hides, but cause political suicide for Obama. Obama has taken a step up now though, so maybe there is some hope on the horizon.

Quote3. Contain the enemy and wear it down tactically.

Welcome to Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, and Glenn Beck's role. They confuse and toy with the psyche of America with the lies and propaganda that they shout out, the misinformation they spread is just Enormous. They take one small thing and Explode it to the highest extreme, it has unfortunately gained traction... but Obama is back in full swing and has already denounced Death Panels, threats to Senior Citizens, etc.

Quote4. Isolate and frustrate it in every way, politically and militarily.

This has not occured, Obama and the Majority of the Democratic party has retained their cool, as long as they hold the moral high ground step 4 is impossible. Now if the Public Option debacle gets out of hand...

Quote5. Destroy it.

This will either be truly a second American Civil War, with (in reality this All comes down to race) White bigots against the rest of the Us.

Or it will be a weakening of power to an extent that the Republican puppets will have puppets of their own called the Democrats... Unfortunately we can see this starting to fulminate already... let's hope Obama's stance is strong enough.

QuoteHelp me answer these questions.  Even if this is just a thought exercise, it will make me feel better, at least.

Also, I bet my left testicle that guy from South Carolina who said, "You lie!", to Obama when he was giving that speech is getting campaign funds from lobbyists for HMO's.  I think they are the enemy, and they are using the Republican Party to frustrate Obama and to muddy the issue.

BTW, I'm not trying to be Obama's or the Democrat's personal army here.  I just wanna do something besides sit here and bitch about my life.

EDIT
lol, I just keep making these fucking speeches...

Oh but I am, haha! I am a raging Liberal, and will jump to their defense as much as I am able to. This was very enjoyable! It's great to see some thought invoking posts like this.

Quote from: "LastingDawn"I am a raging Liberal

WHAT!? :lol: There's no reason to screw over or otherwise mistreat people just because they're different from you...

These are all broken Republican philosophies. Can you name one that works?

Quote from: "LastingDawn"Hmm, well the Neo Confucianists aren't really trying to get any power, they aren't a religious institution, the times of Empire is long past, they're only teachings, there's no St. Ajora, or St. Ajora, not even dieties, just the simple respect one owes to the their family.

Hahaha...

Word filters... :shock:

Quote from: "Quo"And don't get me started on Reagan's "trickle down" retarded philosophy. As if man ever gives to the less wealthy. It's more like a trickle UP economy. The poor man gets more money, has more (or ANY) disposable income, and turns around and spends it on the rich man's business. THAT is motherfucking Capitalism at it's most righteous...

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for a Socialist-Capitalism society. Balance makes the world go 'round. Extremes are bad. Too much of anything is bad for you... no more than Communism only works on paper does any other principal when put into practice as the only philosophy at all...

I agree with this, in particularly the underlined parts - Capitalism and all forms of Socialism and Communism have their faults at a base level. Capitalism crushes the unfortunate and praises the fatcats who just got lucky, leaving massive rich-poor divides (underlined by the fact GNP is no way to measure a country's development).

Whereas Socialism...well, it is very possible to live in a socialist / communist society, and there are less severe rich / poor divides, but its problem is that it conflicts with greed as part of human nature. Say you're not greedy all you want, but you wouldn't have your technology, at least most of it.

I'm on the fence between the two. Both can work in theory, but a mix would be best (socialism alleviates extreme poverty alongside extreme wealth, whereas capitalism generates more income for the country, as does direct foreign investment) - neither system is perfect, nor is it possible for EITHER of them to EVER be perfected.

The reason I support Socialist-Capitalism is because they compliment each other well.

Capitalism, as Mental_Gear said and everybody should know, creates crazy rich/poor divides. The ambitious/greedy get their fill, and the complacent/unfortunate get screwed over. SOMEBODY has to do the low-paying jobs. Who else will flip your burgers? Why should they suffer for their lot in life?

It's like FFT. The rich are the aristocracy/nobility of America. But Socialism provides relief for the "common" man, at a cost to the wealth of the rich...

Rich people don't need anywhere near as much money as they have. And, as Jon Stewart of The Daily Show once put it, "I have no qualms paying higher taxes because I make more money, because it means I can give back to the country that let me get this far". A beautiful sentiment...

But with Socialist-Capitalism, the ambitious still can do their thing, they just can't make more money than god like our celebrities and pro sports players do. But they can still live nicely. In the mean time, the poor don't suffer like the world's trash...

Without the poor, who will hold up the rich? Who will buy their products...? Who will do their services they don't want to do themselves...?

We need to look out for one another. Not shit on those we perceive as below us. Money doesn't even equal your value to begin with. Your decency as a HUMAN BEING does...

It's actually frightening how many variants of socialism there are.

Marxism
Socialism
Communism
Socialist-Capitalism
Lenninism
Marxist-Lenninism.

I'm sure there's more.

As a raging conservative (not a screaming, ridiculous one that makes a fool out of himself)... I am concerned about a public healthcare OPTION because I don't want my tax money paying for people's healthcare. A cheap, public option is a great idea as long as the people who use that healthcare system are responsible for paying for it. For example... I don't pay taxes so Wal-Mart can stay in business if I shop at Target.

While it is true the cost of healthcare is a problem, quality is a more important issue. Preventative healthcare will help people reduce the cost of their healthcare by reducing the number of visits... meaning they get real treatment rather than going back time after time to treat symptoms. Mayo clinic (which has been praised by Obama multiple times) pays their doctors salary so they are not encourage to "treat 'em and street 'em"... this could be a good start to a solution.

btw

QuoteI mean this country was founded on DEMOCRACY and LIBERTY. Yet somehow it's bad to be a DEMOCRAT and a LIBERAL?

this is the dumbest thing i've ever heard. if the nazi's had been named the "hope brigade" would it have made their actions righteous? sorry if that was harsh but i just can't deal with hollow arguments like that

Quote from: "dwib"As a raging conservative (not a screaming, ridiculous one that makes a fool out of himself)... I am concerned about a public healthcare OPTION because I don't want my tax money paying for people's healthcare. A cheap, public option is a great idea as long as the people who use that healthcare system are responsible for paying for it. For example... I don't pay taxes so Wal-Mart can stay in business if I shop at Target.

It's already been said that the public option would be paid for by eliminating inefficienies within the current system. I've heard of no plan to increase taxes.

If you have health insurance, you're already paying for the health care of others anyway.

QuoteWhile it is true the cost of healthcare is a problem, quality is a more important issue. Preventative healthcare will help people reduce the cost of their healthcare by reducing the number of visits... meaning they get real treatment rather than going back time after time to treat symptoms. Mayo clinic (which has been praised by Obama multiple times) pays their doctors salary so they are not encourage to "treat 'em and street 'em"... this could be a good start to a solution.

No one will disagree with you about quality of care and preventative care being important. The problem is that currently, we spend more than any other developed nation, including all of those with national health care systems, and yet our overall quality of care doesn't reflect that. We're spending more on health care and getting back relatively less in return.

Quote from: "dwib"

QuoteI mean this country was founded on DEMOCRACY and LIBERTY. Yet somehow it's bad to be a DEMOCRAT and a LIBERAL?

this is the dumbest thing i've ever heard. if the nazi's had been named the "hope brigade" would it have made their actions righteous? sorry if that was harsh but i just can't deal with hollow arguments like that

Except Republicans don't actually embrace the concepts those words describe, and in fact reject them. Whereas the people who use the labels based on said words embrace them entirely.

You can throw words around, but words still have meanings... :lol:

Quote from: "Quo"Except Republicans don't actually embrace the concepts those words describe, and in fact reject them. Whereas the people who use the labels based on said words embrace them entirely.

My biggest problem with Republicans is they use God as an excuse for a lot of things. Abortion and gay marriage just to name two. My problem is we run on a separation of church and state. I firmly believe if you use a religious bias as an argument in politics you should not be allowed in a position of power. I want to hear a logical and well thought out argument. I don't want people thinking they can just interpret an ancient book for the problems of today.

Exactly. This is a party that doesn't even appreciate the ideals this country was founded on, and yet calls those who do "unpatriotic". Separation of church and state has been a part of this country since the beginning-- it was the whole reason we HAVE this country. The founding fathers are turning in their graves, and I honestly don't blame them...

Besides, "Jesus told me to" is like... totally unreasonable. I mean, even if I WAS religious, why would I just believe he's telling the truth???

As if there are no liars among men...

Quote from: "Quo"Besides, "Jesus told me to" is like... totally unreasonable. I mean, even if I WAS religious, why would I just believe he's telling the truth???

As if there are no liars among men...

Religion in no way affects my views on political matters... but what you said here only proves you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. I understand 3 religions fairly well because I have friends who are Christian, Mormon, and Muslim. The whole point of RELIGION is FAITH, and to christians Jesus is not just an average man. So if you actually were religious, like you suggested, you would believe him. That's what religion is.

QuoteIt's already been said that the public option would be paid for by eliminating inefficienies within the current system. I've heard of no plan to increase taxes

This is absolutely true but my concern is that the public option will eventually work its way into being no so optional. I am happy we are trying new things but frankly I like my insurance company. Truth be told, it is hard to truly know what's what with this bill when Obama is saying it's the best thing in the world (like that stimulus package that certainly hasn't done quite enough for the cost) and crazed republicans saying Obama is trying to kill their grandmother.

Quote from: "dwib"Religion in no way affects my views on political matters.

I respect you all the more for that.

Quote from: "dwib"This is absolutely true but my concern is that the public option will eventually work its way into being no so optional. I am happy we are trying new things but frankly I like my insurance company. Truth be told, it is hard to truly know what's what with this bill when Obama is saying it's the best thing in the world (like that stimulus package that certainly hasn't done quite enough for the cost) and crazed republicans saying Obama is trying to kill their grandmother.

I can understand having a respectable health insurance company. More power to you if you do. I just feel for those who can't afford even the simplest of procedures. I get free health care because my mother is a nurse. I'm going into an allied health field of work, which means I will always have a health care plan. Not everyone can say that.

This is just my feeling but it is wrong to make people suffer because they don't have high paying jobs. The lower class hold up the upper class. If they (hypothetically) disappeared then everyone suffers.

Quote from: "darthpaul"My problem is we run on a separation of church and state. I firmly believe if you use a religious bias as an argument in politics you should not be allowed in a position of power.

This was how Ireland was until at least the late 80s. Gay marriage, divorce and even the sale of contraception was illegal. Ireland has a history of being very insular and xenophobically catholic.

Abortion is still illegal here. I agree on that.

Quote from: "dwib"

Quote from: "Quo"Besides, "Jesus told me to" is like... totally unreasonable. I mean, even if I WAS religious, why would I just believe he's telling the truth???

As if there are no liars among men...

Religion in no way affects my views on political matters... but what you said here only proves you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. I understand 3 religions fairly well because I have friends who are Christian, Mormon, and Muslim. The whole point of RELIGION is FAITH, and to christians Jesus is not just an average man. So if you actually were religious, like you suggested, you would believe him. That's what religion is.

For somebody trying to insist that I've no idea what I'm talking about, you sure don't know what you're talking about. You don't even know what I'm saying.

I'm not saying that I would question Jesus. I would question the man that said Jesus spoke to him. I would question him, as a fallible human being. A person who might not even BE religious at all, much less one of Christ-based origin.

I think you might want to try to stop hounding my words randomly. You're not really doing very good, and it's making you look bad...

For the record, I think Jesus was a great man. And I would trust his word based on his reputation in his life, though I am definately no theist...

It's not making him look bad, Quo, because that is how what you said came across.  You don't see it in the wording because you're the one who said it, but I can collaborate that what he thought you said is indeed what it sounds like at first.

I'm not saying that what you say is wrong, but that's the second time he's jumped on a minor thing that I said-- without even addressing the greater content to boot.

If he wants to have a civilized discussion, fine, but I'm not exactly keen on his attitude...

Quote from: "dwib"This is absolutely true but my concern is that the public option will eventually work its way into being no so optional. I am happy we are trying new things but frankly I like my insurance company. Truth be told, it is hard to truly know what's what with this bill when Obama is saying it's the best thing in the world (like that stimulus package that certainly hasn't done quite enough for the cost) and crazed republicans saying Obama is trying to kill their grandmother.

The push for reform is to cover people who are currently uninsured. No one is going to be forced to use it. Certainly not if they already have private insurance they're satisfied with.

I'm aware of that but in the long run it could be a gradual progression to only having public healthcare, although if this bill passes I'm hoping that won't happen. I want uninsured people to have healthcare, don't get me wrong here... But too much of a good thing is bad, even with public healthcare, and I sure don't want people to push this too far.

What justifies your fear though? Government involvement in health care doesn't necessarily mean an eventual takeover of the health care industry.

Furthermore, the current efforts for reform are to get people covered under a plan the federal government pays for. They are not administering aspects of the industry itself, but simply paying for people's coverage. It's not like were suddenly going to emulate the health care system in Britain or anything along those lines.

...It's modelled after the UK's NHS.

I don't see how, especially since our physicians aren't going to be on the government payroll.

Quote from: "Dominic NY18"Furthermore, the current efforts for reform are to get people covered under a plan the federal government pays for. They are not administering aspects of the industry itself, but simply paying for people's coverage. It's not like were suddenly going to emulate the health care system in Britain or anything along those lines.

So you are saying the plan is to have free healthcare for people who use the government option? That isn't being "competitive", it will simply run the other companies out of business making "free" government healthcare the only option. I'm not sure if this is what you meant to say... but either way where is the fed planning on getting money from to pay for people's healthcare? Borrowed money? Should we raise taxes? I am not attacking you here Dominic, but there is just so much that isn't clear in this bill it is hard to believe people aren't skeptical about it... not AGAINST it, but skeptical about it.

It's not that there is uncleared ends in the bill it's that no one wants to do any research about the bill. Dom has clearly researched it more than I have. I am off to do the same.

And No, Mental Gear, if you would have read the topic At All, you would have seen us making Points that it is Nothing like the UK's plan, if it were the media would cover it as such.

Quote from: "dwib"So you are saying the plan is to have free healthcare for people who use the government option? That isn't being "competitive", it will simply run the other companies out of business making "free" government healthcare the only option. I'm not sure if this is what you meant to say... but either way where is the fed planning on getting money from to pay for people's healthcare? Borrowed money? Should we raise taxes? I am not attacking you here Dominic, but there is just so much that isn't clear in this bill it is hard to believe people aren't skeptical about it... not AGAINST it, but skeptical about it.

Let's clear a few things up then.

Firstly, there really isn't one bill, but instead several bills floating around in the various committees in both houses of Congress.

Free was the wrong word to use. The fact that the word "affordable" is used in reference to the public option should let you know that people on it will have to pay a premium, however little the amount may be. Whatever tax dollars are used for it won't result in increased taxes (unless you're wealthy. But their taxes are going back up regardless).

Keep in mind that those who are uninsured fall into different categories, one of which is those who make enough that they cannot be covered by Medicare, but cannot afford the premiums for whatever private insurance is available where they live. And of course, there are those who insurance companies refuse to cover because of preexisting conditions. These people aren't even in the market for health insurance, either because they can't afford it or because insurance companies refuse to cover them. Why the worry about whether covering these people will lead to a government funded, single-payer system for all, which seems to be your fear?

Under the current system, there's no reason to keep costs for private insurance low, what with the lack of competition in most of the nation's markets. And so costs have continued to increase with no end in sight. A nationwide public option would have enough muscle to negotiate for lower rates with health care providers and drug companies. And unless they want to go under, private insurers will likely follow suit. Why not pressure insurance companies to lower their costs?

Another thing to note is that a public option would likely only cover some minimum level of health care. Premium level care would likely still be the domain of private insurers.

Like I've already stated, much of the funds to pay for it will come cutting the massive amount of waste and utilizing possible savings within the current system. So, for example, Obama wants the waste within Medicare to be cut. If taxes are used, it will

It's will be an option for those seeking coverage, not a mandate for those with coverage to get on the government plan.

Quote from: "Dominic NY18"Under the current system, there's no reason to keep costs for private insurance low, what with the lack of competition in most of the nation's markets. And so costs have continued to increase with no end in sight. A nationwide public option would have enough muscle to negotiate for lower rates with health care providers and drug companies. And unless they want to go under, private insurers will likely follow suit. Why not pressure insurance companies to lower their costs?

Another thing to note is that a public option would likely only cover some minimum level of health care. Premium level care would likely still be the domain of private insurers.

This section helped clear things up. And also if you are wondering where my fear of a complete government takeover of healthcare comes from it is from the extent to which the government will choose to take this. For example, if prices drop so low it becomes unprofitable for other companies or if they decide to pass more legislation later on. I understand it all fairly well, but I won't be completely convinced unless it goes through and it works well for a while. That's just how I am on this subject.

I don't understand the rationale behind this fear of Single-payer/Public Option thing. Most wealthy countries in Europe have single-payer or hybrid systems with a public option and most or all of them their health care systems are ranked higher than the US. The only alternative we have is to do nothing and continue an almost century long discussion. The right wing loonies like to talk a lot of shit, but they have no real alternative. Also I'd like to remind the pinheads that cry socialism to remember that the police and fire department are social (as in socialist) programs. Do they want us to privatize those, too? In the immortal words of Denise Hopper in "Blue Velvet", "Fuck that shit!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snhiofL2Rh4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snhiofL2Rh4)

Quote from: "Vanya"Also I'd like to remind the pinheads that cry socialism to remember that the police and fire department are social (as in socialist) programs. Do they want us to privatize those, too?

We read the same articles.

If there's anything to complain about concerning a socialist government controlling your life, then the police certainly would be the most obvious problem, no?