Final Fantasy Hacktics

Quoted from their front page

Quote from: "Chrono Compendium"On May 8, we received a wide-reaching cease and desist letter from Square Enix, Inc. As with Chrono Trigger: Resurrection and Chrono Trigger Remake Project's letters, we have uploaded the letter for viewing here as a matter of public interest.

We have decided to comply with Square Enix's demands. Most of the Chrono Compendium webpages and forums will be unaffected by these changes. However, our compliance has the practical effect of ending the Compendium's support for ROM modification projects of any kind, with regard to copyrighted Square Enix works such as Chrono Trigger, Radical Dreamers, and Chrono Cross. We have already destroyed all known copies of Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes and other modifications and projects. We have also shut down and made inaccessible any discussion boards used for the development of ROM-hacking fan projects on this website, including:

* Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes
* Chrono Trigger: Prophet's Guile
* Retranslation of Chrono Trigger
* Chrono Trigger Re-amped
* Chrono Trigger Rebirth
* Chrono Trigger Azala Style

Affected parties may contact the administration in private if there is any personal information they wish to retrieve from the deprecated forums.

We do not accept the validity of Square Enix's claims, nor the legal rationale underpinning their position. Nonetheless, we are complying with their demands so as to avoid the expenses and burdens of litigation, because, frankly, they can afford a frivolous lawsuit more than we can.

We thank all those who have been involved in the affected projects for their spirited energy over the years, and we look forward to the day when non-profit, fan-made projects will be properly recognized as a fan-base boon and marketing opportunity tool, rather than silenced as innocent victims of prohibitively interpreted copyright law.

Sincerely,

ZeaLitY and the Chrono Compendium Staff

Kinda makes me worried about FFH. Projects there have been going for quite a while though, and since the recent release of CTDS, I guess Square finally got off their asses and stopped them.

If we stay under the radar we should be fine. That's the hope anyhow. Also Square has always been pretty personal about Chrono Trigger itself, if memory serves me right. I think we should be fine.

I talked with ZeaLitY (CC's admin) and I believe not.

Whoever it is possible SE is only after major hacks and use them as a base to kill hacking communities since they only acted when CT: CE's release was announced when it was 98% done.

Our situation is identical, only to lower proportions. We have 3 times less members, existed for about 2.5x less time, and aren't really near completely any major hack.

Look at this strongly worded email I just sent off to square-enix

"HEY. FAGGOTS. IM ASMO FROM FINAL FANTASY HACKTICS THE FINAL FANTASY TACTICS HACKING WEBSITE. MAYBE YOU'VE HEARD OF ME? WELL I JUST THOUGHT I'D WRITE TO SAY WHAT A BUNCH OF FUCKO DICKHEADS YOU ARE. IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT, YOU CAN FIND ME AT THE FINAL FANTASY TACTICS HACKING WEBSITE WHERE WE HACK FINAL FANTASY TACTICS. THE URL IS www.ffhacktics.com (http://www.ffhacktics.com). OR AREN'T YOU MAN ENOUGH TO FACE ME? DIDN'T THINK SO"

The whole situation is bullshit on Square's part.
All they accomplished with this is to piss off ppl and shrink their fan base.
Just makes me want to "aggressively pursue" piracy against them.
Fuck square. ^_^

I was so saddened to see that. I can't believe that they sent the cease and desist when the project had been worked on for years and years and then when it was just about to be released they dropped this on them. That is so cruel and aggravating, I can't imagine how tough that would be for those behind the project.

I hope that the amazing work being done here doesn't suffer the same fate. That would be terrible.

Quote from: "Asmo X"Look at this strongly worded email I just sent off to square-enix

"HEY. FAGGOTS. IM ASMO FROM FINAL FANTASY HACKTICS THE FINAL FANTASY TACTICS HACKING WEBSITE. MAYBE YOU'VE HEARD OF ME? WELL I JUST THOUGHT I'D WRITE TO SAY WHAT A BUNCH OF FUCKO DICKHEADS YOU ARE. IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT, YOU CAN FIND ME AT THE FINAL FANTASY TACTICS HACKING WEBSITE WHERE WE HACK FINAL FANTASY TACTICS. THE URL IS www.ffhacktics.com (http://www.ffhacktics.com). OR AREN'T YOU MAN ENOUGH TO FACE ME? DIDN'T THINK SO"

lol

This pisses me off. I believe seeing as we bought the fucking game we should be able to do what ever the fuck we want with it. It isn't like we're are trying to sell the patches/hacks that we make for profit. We do it for fun or because we feel like it. I really enjoy Square games but they're fucked up on this part. I'm going to write an email as well... I let you know there response when i get the chance... What's the email for Square-Enix?

Quote from: "Asmo X"Look at this strongly worded email I just sent off to square-enix

"HEY. FAGGOTS. IM ASMO FROM FINAL FANTASY HACKTICS THE FINAL FANTASY TACTICS HACKING WEBSITE. MAYBE YOU'VE HEARD OF ME? WELL I JUST THOUGHT I'D WRITE TO SAY WHAT A BUNCH OF FUCKO DICKHEADS YOU ARE. IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT, YOU CAN FIND ME AT THE FINAL FANTASY TACTICS HACKING WEBSITE WHERE WE HACK FINAL FANTASY TACTICS. THE URL IS www.ffhacktics.com (http://www.ffhacktics.com). OR AREN'T YOU MAN ENOUGH TO FACE ME? DIDN'T THINK SO"

Harsh as always but also straight to the meaning and fucking well sayed as always.

Quote from: "Chrono Compendium"We do not accept the validity of Square Enix's claims, nor the legal rationale underpinning their position ... and we look forward to the day when non-profit, fan-made projects will be properly recognized as a fan-base boon and marketing opportunity tool, rather than silenced as innocent victims of prohibitively interpreted copyright law

The sad truth

I found the email and street address for Square of North America...
I'll write the email when I get home.

I didnt write an email. It was a joke.

Do not email them. It wont do anything. If you do it anyway, don't mention FFH for fuck's sake.

I wasn't going to mention FFH. I am not retarded.

you can never tell. I'm sure there's some dumbass prepping an email that goes "As a member of another hacking community, I know how much hard work it takes.." etc etc.

There's something odd come up in this case... as Tithin guessed this could all still be fake.

http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.p ... #msg134196 (http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,8582.msg134196.html#msg134196)

The e-mail in the cease and desist was fake in any case. Also isn't it really suspicious how they put that Ultimatum of "If Square wants to shut us down, we'll comply" in their own readme? Not to mention how every member is just ready to roll over and "die" as it is.

Hey guys, FaustWolf from the Chrono Compendium here. I was on the CE beta testing team and did some technical work for the project late in development. Let me assure you that even internally, the CE team fully believes this C&D to be the real McCoy. What was pointed out over at RH.net could be the result of internal intranet setup as also has been pointed out over there, perhaps spam protection measures.

That is far easier to believe IMO than a grand scheme in which someone hoaxed the entire CE team and the entire fan modding community. Agent12 (main coder of Crimson Echoes) actually received a physical letter along with the electronic one ZeaLitY received. Whoever did this either had the power to find out where Agent12 actually lived, or already knew where he lived. If this was a hoax, it resulted from a truly, truly demented mind.

Nor can I find a motive, because even if this was a hoax the project release date will likely have to be pushed back, by an amount that depends on the state of any remaining copies we'd be able to track down.

That said, Agent12 is going to contact Square Enix soon so we can put an end to this one way or another. If this was a hoax, it was one for the history books and someone should write a sociology paper about mass hysteria using this as an example.

Either way, this is utterly revolting. Fanart is fanart, whether it be an image, music, or a game.
Why the hell would anyone want to stifle it?

Ah, FaustWolf, awesome avatar, though yes, I have to admit this wouldn't be the first time Square's gone mad over Chrono Trigger related media. Though I really hope this isn't the end of the project, but it was a very closed beta, wasn't it? Wouldn't that mean someone close to the entire project betrayed you? Or was it open to the public?

Quote from: "Asmo X"you can never tell. I'm sure there's some dumbass prepping an email that goes "As a member of another hacking community, I know how much hard work it takes.." etc etc.

Very so true. I hope no one has done this.

Quote from: "LastingDawn"There's something odd come up in this case... as Tithin guessed this could all still be fake.

http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.p ... #msg134196 (http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,8582.msg134196.html#msg134196)

The e-mail in the cease and desist was fake in any case. Also isn't it really suspicious how they put that Ultimatum of "If Square wants to shut us down, we'll comply" in their own readme? Not to mention how every member is just ready to roll over and "die" as it is.

Your insight seems to be feasible but are you implying that someone from Chrono Compendium created the hoax or someone else created it?

EDIT:
I do not see this as an inside job, because the people who spent the years doing these hacks would not want it to end when they are so close to completion. If they did want it to end like this, they are fucked up in the head and have no idea how much people are going to hate them for doing so. Luckily though, if it is a hoax then all of their precious work can be brought back and the hack can be completed.

Well, one or the other. I don't know if Square-Enix would step this far out of the way. Though they do protect Chrono Trigger like a child... thankfully Final Fantasy doesn't have this sort of handicap to it.

If you guys of FFH stay under the radar, I don't think there's too much to worry about. But I can tell you this much, members at the Compendium (myself included) and at many rom-hacking locales are pretty upset with this, but we're not going to martyr out some of our members just to test SE's patience. It's a damn shame...Thankfully the guys who worked on the game are coming up with a retort, so let's see what happens.

And if this is a hoax, there's a colossal asshole out there who just shat on the entire rom-hacking community.

Quote from: "LastingDawn"Well, one or the other. I don't know if Square-Enix would step this far out of the way. Though they do protect Chrono Trigger like a child... thankfully Final Fantasy doesn't have this sort of handicap to it.

Please explain to me why Square is so defensive over Chrono Trigger.

Just so your community knows, I have absolutely no doubt now that this is real. Suffice it to say that ZeaLitY's latest post over at RH.net proves that it isn't an outside job, but I've had some conversations that prove to me that it is NOT an inside job either. I've known these guys for over a year now, and they're telling me God's honest truth. Err, okay, you're modding a game that's sort of anti-church. Well, it's 100% truth.

This is going to be really interesting. Everyone, make backups of everything you've got NOW. To my knowledge no mention of either qhimm or FFH has been made at Chrono Compendium, but Square Enix's legal dept. is actually freaking surfing the Compendium boards right now. I have this on very, very good authority. This is scary.

EDIT: Hahaha, your language filters changed "God" to "St. Ajora." I love you people already.

EDIT: Hahaha, that's surreal. Your language filters changed G.O.D. to "St. Ajora."

Quote from: "FaustWolf"Just so your community knows, I have absolutely no doubt now that this is real. Suffice it to say that ZeaLitY's latest post over at RH.net proves that it isn't an outside job, but I've had some conversations that prove to me that it is NOT an inside job either. I've known these guys for over a year now, and they're telling me St. Ajora's honest truth. Err, okay, you're modding a game that's sort of anti-church. Well, it's 100% truth.

This is going to be really interesting. Everyone, make backups of everything you've got NOW. To my knowledge no mention of either qhimm or FFH has been made at Chrono Compendium, but Square Enix's legal dept. is actually freaking surfing the Compendium boards right now. I have this on very, very good authority. This is scary.

EDIT: Hahaha, your language filters changed "St. Ajora" to "St. Ajora." I love you people already.

EDIT: Hahaha, that's surreal. Your language filters changed G.O.D. to "St. Ajora."

Perhaps some IP Bans might be in order for square?

And maybe removing all ffhacktics related stuff on RHDN and youtube?

Jesus, this is fucked up.

Quote from: "FaustWolf"Just so your community knows, I have absolutely no doubt now that this is real. Suffice it to say that ZeaLitY's latest post over at RH.net proves that it isn't an outside job, but I've had some conversations that prove to me that it is NOT an inside job either. I've known these guys for over a year now, and they're telling me St. Ajora's honest truth. Err, okay, you're modding a game that's sort of anti-church. Well, it's 100% truth.

This is going to be really interesting. Everyone, make backups of everything you've got NOW. To my knowledge no mention of either qhimm or FFH has been made at Chrono Compendium, but Square Enix's legal dept. is actually freaking surfing the Compendium boards right now. I have this on very, very good authority. This is scary.

EDIT: Hahaha, your language filters changed "St. Ajora" to "St. Ajora." I love you people already.

EDIT: Hahaha, that's surreal. Your language filters changed G.O.D. to "St. Ajora."

What's the link for ZeaLitY's latest post?

The link for Z's latest post is here, though I realize that might not be utterly convincing on its face:
http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.p ... #msg134267 (http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,8582.msg134267.html#msg134267)

Trust me if you can though, I've had all the conversations I needed to make absolutely sure that this was not an inside job. That would be of more concern to people at this point than an outside job all things considered.

Oh, hi mav!

I read it. More investigating needs to be done like agent12 said.

what would we do if they find us?, would we just become a giant group of hackers by E-mail?, also what would be are corse of action?, if Zodiac got an email from them would he mass e-mail everyone explaning, and then delete are acounts?, it wouldn't suprise me if he's recieved several PM/e-mails asking this.

Quote from: "akwikone"what would we do if they find us?, would we just become a giant group of hackers by E-mail?, also what would be are corse of action?, if Zodiac got an email from them would he mass e-mail everyone explaning, and then delete are acounts?, it wouldn't suprise me if he's recieved several PM/e-mails asking this.

I pray that they do not find us.

What about the wiki?  What's to stop them from screwing with that?

rollback is easy, why would they bother attacking it.

The wiki... It might have to be shutdown in order for us to stay hidden...

Zodiac will save us.

but how long has that japanese version been up and running and they havent had trouble too right?

Don't worry guys, I don't think Square is setting up for some kind of crusade against the hackers. But for now, just be wary of yourselves and stay alert.

If you're really worried, maybe you should make the forums invisible to non-registered members...

The whole thing makes very little sense. It seems like a waste of their time. I'd release it anyway. How are they going to prove that CC cost them anything? And what would they get for their trouble? It's not like a bunch of hackers have a worthwhile amount of money laying about. At best this is little more than a scare tactic.
If it is a hoax it is very well executed.
If it really is SE, then there are some truly greedy, paranoid bastards. It isn't like they aren't turning massive profits off their established games. That kind of stuff just bugs the hell outta me.
Either way I think I might just pick up CT hacking just to piss them off.

Well, it's not necessarily a profit issue: there's a concept regarding copyright called "positive harm". Although it sounds nonsensical, it's the concept that using copyrighted material will cause an increased interest in the original material; basically the original work also gets benefit this way. That's what would likely happen with Chrono Trigger in this case. But I think what SE is really afraid of is people adulterating their series. If they had anything planned for the series (which, I doubt they do, but who knows) Crimson Echoes would disrupt the continuity and the attention of whatever SE is releasing. And perhaps that's why they're so up in arms.

Likewise Square Enix is probably still pissed that people downloaded illegal copies of Chrono Trigger DS even after they went through some supposed trouble copyrighting it.

That is a nonsensical concept.
It sound like some lawyer made it up in order to win a copyright case.

Let's face it, though, SE is very good at screwing up their own continuity without any help from us. ^_^

Trouble? Sounds interesting.

Quote from: "Vanya"That is a nonsensical concept.
It sound like some lawyer made it up in order to win a copyright case.

Let's face it, though, SE is very good at screwing up their own continuity without any help from us. ^_^

Trouble? Sounds interesting.

No it isn't nonsensical. And it wouldn't be the first time it's happened in the video game industry. Some people made an unlicensed remake of Quest for Glory 2 and had the project canned by Sierra. Eventually they reached a compromise and the remake went ahead but Sierra wanted to playthrough the finished copy first to make sure it was a proper representation of their intellectual property.

This is entirely logical. You can't expect a company to just let random people on the internet do what-the-fuck-ever with their IP.

QuoteBut I think what SE is really afraid of is people adulterating their series. If they had anything planned for the series (which, I doubt they do, but who knows) Crimson Echoes would disrupt the continuity and the attention of whatever SE is releasing. And perhaps that's why they're so up in arms.

This ^

It's gay that they are up in arms about it, but they do have every right to do so

It is asshole-ish of them to use those rights on projects and free publicity like CC and others, don't get me wrong, it's a right they don't really have to exercise

but it's still their right, unfortunately.. they did it before on that CT 3D Re-make, I remember that website, but  I was looking forward to this alot more.. I mean c'mon :O

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIBMbTBW ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIBMbTBW7WI&feature=related)

Alot of what has been mentioned so far (including backing up work and keeping some forums hidden) are good ideas though

everything 1.3 related I have backed-up already, including those huge topics


you guys should finish it underground and release it anyway  

Quote from: "Asmo X"You can't expect a company to just let random people on the internet do what-the-fuck-ever with their IP.

Yeah I can. As long as they aren't trying to sell it. The entire concept of intellectual property is partially absurd, especially to the extent that corporations take it. Civilization hasn't come as far as it has by packaging and pricing every idea they could. The entire idea of counting potential losses as actual losses is another absurdity. But I'm getting political now and off the main topic.

I just hope this thing blows over and the hack reaches the light of day.

Meanwhile SE is just a bunch of whinny bitches that can't handle a fan group making a better sequel than them with a fraction of their resources.

Chrono Compendium should take the Pirate Bay defense and move thier servers to Sweden.

I assume (and hope) that CC finishes thier project underground like Arch said.  I personally haven't seen anything from CC, but I applaud the work they went through.  Square should just embrace this whole thing like Valve did with Counter-Strike.  Half-life wouldn't have been half as popular as it is now if CS didn't exist.  I hope Square wisens up and realizes that it's thier own fans that they are dumping a turd bucket on.

To Asmo and ehrgeiz: I think a written letter campaign would be a positive idea.  Not if people wrote in like Asmo's fake email post, but if they were written in a "why are you hurting your fans" attitude, maybe we could bring a tear to thier collective eye as they shut CC down.  I don't pretend to think that they would change thier mind, but CC could be the martyr that makes them realize that they are creating bad PR from what was originally good PR.

This is a romhack, no? If this gains popularity, there's no way you could argue that it wouldn't increase piracy of a game they plan to continue to make money on. Not many people dump their cartridges themselves; most download the roms illegally.

Not like I agree with what they're doing. Like I said earlier, I think this falls under the realm of fanart.

As LD mentioned earlier I have extreme scepticism as to the legitimacy of this notice.

Takedown notice: http://www.chronocompendium.com/CEOrder.PDF (http://www.chronocompendium.com/CEOrder.PDF)

First of all there is direct mention in the takedown notice that "We understand that you claim a copyright to CT:CE and intend to distribute it online imminently"

What? Were the makers of this romhack so backwards that they thought they could claim copyright on an existing piece of work using a pre-existing, AND PRECOPYWRITTEN, engine, and assets? That just reeks of extreme (http://www.szrgta.com/szr/forum/images/smilies/emot-smug.gif) and I'm not surprised in the slightest that SE have turned around and slapped this project into the dust.

There's also the disclaimer in the readme file which is suss as well, though I can't be fucked looking that up right now.

There's enough evidence there to suggest that this is authentic, but theres also plenty there to arouse suspicion and I can't fault the admin on romhacking.net for calling it a fake. I did it as well myself last night after a cursory readthrough of the C&D.

The truth of the matter is, I'd love to play it, but I'm not stupid enough to think for even a second that square enix will relent.

@Kuraudo:

Not only would I not hold my breath to see a leak, but I'd be extremely surprised if it did. And I would expect legal action within minutes. Taken from the C&D

QuoteIf any of these unlawful products are ever distributed, or if you fail to remove all infringing materials immediately, then we will have no choice but to turn this matter over to our litigation counsel and appropriate authorities.

QuoteChrono Compendium should take the Pirate Bay defense and move thier servers to Sweden.

If they have details enough to send a paper copy letter, it doesn't matter where the servers are located, they'll still sue whoever they sent the paper copy to (their main coder, as I recall).

QuoteI think a written letter campaign

I stopped reading that paragraph there.

Quotemaybe we could bring a tear to thier collective eye

lawl

QuoteSquare should just embrace this whole thing like Valve did with Counter-Strike.

There's a huge difference between using a FPS engine to create a non-canon deathmatching game, and using an RPG engine to create a direct fan sequel.

@Kaijuii

QuoteI think this falls under the realm of fanart.

It doesn't matter what you think it falls under, its a copyrighted piece of work and their lawyers intend to squish it. As is their legal right.

@Vanya

QuoteYeah I can. As long as they aren't trying to sell it. The entire concept of intellectual property is partially absurd, especially to the extent that corporations take it.

There speaks one without any intellectual property.

QuoteI just hope this thing blows over and the hack reaches the light of day.

Seconded.

QuoteMeanwhile SE is just a bunch of whinny bitches that can't handle a fan group making a better sequel than them with a fraction of their resources.

You can't state that for a truth, and that just smacks of bitterness on your part.

Quote from: "tithin"

QuoteYeah I can. As long as they aren't trying to sell it. The entire concept of intellectual property is partially absurd, especially to the extent that corporations take it.

There speaks one without any intellectual property.

This.

Hell, I'd shell up some money to buy this if square released it!
It's obviously what the fans want.

Quote from: "Vanya"

Quote from: "Asmo X"You can't expect a company to just let random people on the internet do what-the-fuck-ever with their IP.

Yeah I can. As long as they aren't trying to sell it. The entire concept of intellectual property is partially absurd, especially to the extent that corporations take it. Civilization hasn't come as far as it has by packaging and pricing every idea they could. The entire idea of counting potential losses as actual losses is another absurdity.

Meanwhile SE is just a bunch of whinny bitches that can't handle a fan group making a better sequel than them with a fraction of their resources.

Reality <----------------------------> You

QuoteThe whole thing makes very little sense. It seems like a waste of their time.

For a company like SE, who hires people to write PR and CD letters, who have their own legal department, it is the closest thing to very little effort you can think of. If they bothered to have someone write up this letter it means it is not a waste of time in their eyes. Or else they wouldn't have written it.

QuoteI'd release it anyway. How are they going to prove that CC cost them anything?

They don't need to. It's their INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. It is THEIR RIGHT to send a C&D letter to people basing work off their INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. That's how the law works, man. You'd have this right too as long as other people are messing with IP you have created and belong to you.

QuoteAnd what would they get for their trouble? It's not like a bunch of hackers have a worthwhile amount of money laying about. At best this is little more than a scare tactic.

They get to stop others from messing with their IP, which they created, which belongs to them... Square made Chrono Trigger. It's theirs, remember? I don't think they are after money from hackers.
If you think this is a scare tactic, I would urge you to make the experiment of releasing something Square has C&D you on. See what happens
 


@ Tithin: I agree.

(http://i44.tinypic.com/2mxh92v.png)

This part of the letter is EXTREMELY FISHY. Did CC really put that in their Readme? Who the hell would do that? It's like they are expecting and welcoming SE to stop them. Also where did they claim copyright on CE? If they did, that's pretty fucking stupid. It's like FFH claiming copyright on everything FFT based.

I've spoken with FaustWolf on this matter, they did not claim a copyright, nor did they actually distribute the ROM, it was kept relatively under wraps, much less transparent then say 1.3, Mercenaries, or Call of Power. They had a very small team of beta testers.

Just so I can reiterate this now that Nightcrawler over at Romhacking.net has his head buried in the sand, this C&D is very real. One of our admins -- the first to call, I think he might have gotten through before ZeaLitY and Agent12 -- actually got through to legal and was able to confirm that SE really did send this out. Agent12 explained this in one of his replies there. As for the readme included with the demo (released back in 2006), you can read the whole paragraph (including what SE left out) in Agent12's letter to the community here:
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/ ... #msg160508 (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,7420.msg160508.html#msg160508)

We claimed no more copyright on Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes than any project here claims copyright on Final Fantasy Tactics.

I'd be happy to answer any questions you guys have so as to diffuse any misconceptions about this situation floating around.

Quote from: "tithin"Not only would I not hold my breath to see a leak, but I'd be extremely surprised if it did. And I would expect legal action within minutes.

On who?  A website that no longer propigates the game, no longer gives it resources, no longer advertises it, and clearly complies with Square?  I said underground, like via email or a private domian.  Distribution amongst the game's creators could be hushed enough that Square wouldn't notice.

Quote from: "tithin"If they have details enough to send a paper copy letter, it doesn't matter where the servers are located, they'll still sue whoever they sent the paper copy to (their main coder, as I recall).

/imakejoke

Quote from: "tithin"I stopped reading that paragraph there.

Apparently you didn't.

Quote from: "tithin"

Quotemaybe we could bring a tear to thier collective eye

lawl

It was for lulz.  The picture I had in my mind was the metal skeleton of a terminator (being Square) crying as it mows down humans (fans).

Quote from: "tithin"There's a huge difference between using a FPS engine to create a non-canon deathmatching game, and using an RPG engine to create a direct fan sequel.

There definitely is, but that's not the principle I'm arguing.  Valve took a fan made alteration of thier game and sold it.  This essential meant that they are selling a game that cost them no money (aside from the money spent to make Half-Life).  This gave a boost to the popularity of Half-life and TFC which most likely boosted those profits as well.

I just think Square should do the same thing.  I think Square could sell it as either canon or non-canon and make a profit.  I would feel honored if Square ever picked up a game alteration of mine and sold it.  CC wasn't in it for the profit anyway, so I think they'd feel the same way as well.

The C&D order expressly stated that if any leak is ever brought to their attention, then the parties named in the C&D face litigation.

@Faust

It's not that I disbelieve you, in fact after reading through this I'm now more and more sure of it being genuine (only square enix could fuck something like this up by claiming a bunch of shit that didn't happen). I recall something you or someone else wrote in the romhacking.net thread that you guys got through to SE Legal and confirmed it's genuine. But that's it? There was hints that there was more to the conversation than that, but no one has stated what was said specifically. Any chance you could enlighten us of this?

@Kuraudo

QuoteOn who? A website that no longer propigates the game, no longer gives it resources, no longer advertises it, and clearly complies with Square? I said underground, like via email or a private domian. Distribution amongst the game's creators could be hushed enough that Square wouldn't notice.

As I stated further up, and Faustwolf specifically above me states, ANY leak brings litigation. They have enough real life information to bring the main coder to court so I don't think you'll see anything.

QuoteI would feel honored if Square ever picked up a game alteration of mine and sold it. CC wasn't in it for the profit anyway, so I think they'd feel the same way as well.

Again, I should reiterate this for everyone

It doesn't matter how you feel about this project, or how you would feel about it being given a Square Enix release. This is not your project, and by proxy it is not your situation. You are not Square Enix. They have clearly stated now that they don't want this project to see release. That is their legal right and all of your hypotheticals change naught.

Quote from: "tithin"@Kaijuii

QuoteI think this falls under the realm of fanart.

It doesn't matter what you think it falls under, its a copyrighted piece of work and their lawyers intend to squish it. As is their legal right.

I never said otherwise. I just said I disagreed with the course of action they're taking, not that they couldn't or even shouldn't do it. They can do whatever the crap they want with their copyrighted work.

Right, and it's a damn shame, but you're right Kaijyuu it's their copyrighted work, so they can do what they want with it. I think a lot of the problems come from a general misunderstanding regarding the legality of ROM hacks. I'm not necessarily saying I agree or disagree with SE's claims, but I personally thought hacks fell under the realm of derivative works or fan fiction, but whatever. And as far as the readme goes, the entire portion wasn't mentioned:

QuoteROM altering and modification is illegal, and the demo has been made without the consent of Square Enix. However, Kajar Laboratories wishes that Square Enix view it as a piece of fanfiction or other fan-related work, falling in the general body of fan community proceedings that are too numerous to prosecute and summarily have a positive effect on the popularity of its games. Should Square Enix perceive the project as a threat to its sales or intellectual property, Kajar Laboratories will immediately cease operation on the project and comply with Square Enix's orders.

wow they conveniently left out that part, the part that makes them look like corporate bullies

what assholes -_K

Quote from: "Asmo X"

Quote from: "tithin"

QuoteYeah I can. As long as they aren't trying to sell it. The entire concept of intellectual property is partially absurd, especially to the extent that corporations take it.

There speaks one without any intellectual property.

This.

Technically if I copyright the stuff I'm working on now for PC I would, but I'm not going to. I never will. If I ever make something that ppl think is good enough to use for something else then more power to them. I want to make games to entertain, nothing more nothing less. Maybe I sound a little holier than thou, but that's what I think is right.

Quote from: "tithin"

QuoteMeanwhile SE is just a bunch of whinny bitches that can't handle a fan group making a better sequel than them with a fraction of their resources.

You can't state that for a truth, and that just smacks of bitterness on your part.

I didn't mean it as a truth. That's just my opinion. Obviously I don't work at SE. Also, I'm not so much bitter as disappointed.

Quote from: "Voldemort"

QuoteAnd what would they get for their trouble? It's not like a bunch of hackers have a worthwhile amount of money laying about. At best this is little more than a scare tactic.

They get to stop others from messing with their IP, which they created, which belongs to them... Square made Chrono Trigger. It's theirs, remember? I don't think they are after money from hackers.
If you think this is a scare tactic, I would urge you to make the experiment of releasing something Square has C&D you on. See what happens
 

I might just do that. It would be fun to stick a thorn in their side.

Quote from: "FaustWolf"The C&D order expressly stated that if any leak is ever brought to their attention, then the parties named in the C&D face litigation.

Suck and/or Supersuck.  My thought still remain that those who worked on it (at least the major contributors, or the ones who will be litigated upon) should finish and distribute amongst yourselves.  Don't leak it onto the internet.  Keep it amongst yourselves.  If only those that will be legally responsible have it, then they should have a shared self-interest in not leaking it. And then 20 years down the line when noone cares, release it.

Quote from: "tithin"It doesn't matter how you feel about this project, or how you would feel about it being given a Square Enix release. This is not your project, and by proxy it is not your situation. You are not Square Enix. They have clearly stated now that they don't want this project to see release. That is their legal right and all of your hypotheticals change naught.

Once again, not the principle I am arguing.  The "feel" is merely what I think CC opinion should be if hypothetically Square did want it.  My argument is that Square should at least honestly evaluate CC effort to see if they'd like it.  If they are shutting down CC's production for money-grubbing issues, logically, they should evaluate that production for the same reason: money.  I know this is contingent upon Square using logic, but maybe they already have looked at it and deemed it unworthy of thier time.  If so, rock on.  If not, suck it, Square.

Quote from: "Vanya"

Quote from: "Asmo X"

Quote from: "tithin"

QuoteYeah I can. As long as they aren't trying to sell it. The entire concept of intellectual property is partially absurd, especially to the extent that corporations take it.

There speaks one without any intellectual property.

This.

Technically if I copyright the stuff I'm working on now for PC I would, but I'm not going to. I never will. If I ever make something that ppl think is good enough to use for something else then more power to them. I want to make games to entertain, nothing more nothing less. Maybe I sound a little holier than thou, but that's what I think is right.

Christ you are so fucking naive. Square have actual costs. Employees to take care of, overhead costs and so on. They cease to function in your bullshit poppies-and-sunshine universe where everyone gives their shit away. I'm making a game. Someone uses my assets to make a similar game for free. Do I have a reasonable expectation that perhaps there would be some people who would forgo spending money on my game to get a similar game for free? I think I do. Can I be absolutely sure that this is the case? Of course not. But you don't run a company by taking pointless chances, 'letting ones slide' and trusting the generous nature of consumers. You need to grow up a bit.

Quote from: "Vanya"Technically if I copyright the stuff I'm working on now for PC I would, but I'm not going to. I never will. If I ever make something that ppl think is good enough to use for something else then more power to them. I want to make games to entertain, nothing more nothing less.

That is exactly the reason why you aren't seeing the situation clearly.

Square doesn't just make games as a hobby on their spare time like you do. Their primary reason for making games is not just entertainment.

Square's employees make money off this. It is their profession, it is their job.

Square is a company, and companies want to make money. This one just so happens to make money via entertainment through video games, but don't make the mistake to think that they see their job like a hobby that everyone is free to share ware open-source across the interwebs.

You guys need to drop everything and move to Cuba. Then you can release the completed project and they won't be able to come into the country and arrest you.

QuoteI recall something you or someone else wrote in the romhacking.net thread that you guys got through to SE Legal and confirmed it's genuine. But that's it? There was hints that there was more to the conversation than that, but no one has stated what was said specifically. Any chance you could enlighten us of this?

This is going to sound soooo ridiculous, but the admin who got through to SE legal was told not to discuss their conversation with others. We're hoping for some kind of official statement from SE though, so that people can have solid proof. Hugely sorry for now, but I'm not currently at liberty to divulge more than that.

In any case, looks like SE bit off more than they could chew with this one. It's literally everywhere now.

To clear up some misconceptions that have been floating around in the meantime, you can take a look here:
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/ ... pic=7437.0 (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=7437.0)

@Faustwolf

Quote from: "FaustWolf"This is going to sound soooo ridiculous, but the admin who got through to SE legal was told not to discuss their conversation with others. We're hoping for some kind of official statement from SE though, so that people can have solid proof. Hugely sorry for now, but I'm not currently at liberty to divulge more than that.

You seem to be everywhere on the net dispelling rumours of this. Thanks for your dilligence at least. Be sure to let us know how it comes along.

QuoteIn any case, looks like SE bit off more than they could chew with this one. It's literally everywhere now.

I am not surprised. IPS patches have long been a staple of the romhacking community and very very very few romhacks have been slapped with a C&D (this is the only one that I'm aware of in truth). It sets a bad precedent, so I don't know how SE hoped to keep this swept under the carpet. Especially considering the scale and completion of the project.

In the interim, I'm gonna send you a PM :3

@Kuraudo

QuoteOnce again, not the principle I am arguing. The "feel" is merely what I think CC opinion should be if hypothetically Square did want it. My argument is that Square should at least honestly evaluate CC effort to see if they'd like it. If they are shutting down CC's production for money-grubbing issues, logically, they should evaluate that production for the same reason: money. I know this is contingent upon Square using logic, but maybe they already have looked at it and deemed it unworthy of thier time. If so, rock on. If not, suck it, Square.

I will be blunt seeing as you don't seem to be grasping my point.

Your opinion in regards to Square Enix's course of action is worthless. They have made their position clear. Perhaps they do not wish to pursue having an official release for concerns of quality? Perhaps they do not wish to further confuse the storyline? Perhaps they simply do not want any fan sequel to be done period?

Money is not always the underlying issue with these things, and you should stop thinking purely in monetary values as the reason for this being squished.

@Faustwolf

re; above. Don't take what I'm saying as a slight against the project, I don't know if you were directly involved or what have you, but you certainly seem to have turned into the spokesman for it.

Man this is some bullshit, fuck Square Enix. They wonder why people pirate their shit, fucking assholes don't deserve our money. Sending out C&Ds over a fuckin 15 year old video game. When was the last time they made any money off Chrono Trigger cartridges???

QuoteWhen was the last time they made any money off Chrono Trigger cartridges???

Chrono Trigger DS, which joins the now vast family of ports which offer so little extra but still sell better than many original games.

>_>

*Super Nintendo Chrono Trigger cartridges >_>

But anyways, after actually looking at the C&D, I do have to say it is worded rather suspiciously...

Quote from: "TRC"*Super Nintendo Chrono Trigger cartridges >_>

"Why would I buy it on the DS when I can already play the rom on my psp's emulator?"

Not the greatest excuse (fanboys will buy anything that's re-released), but hey.

... Who owns a fucking SNES anymore? How the fuck can it affect the DS' sales.

Quote from: "Zodiac"... Who owns a fucking SNES anymore? How the fuck can it affect the DS' sales.

This.

Quote from: "Zodiac"... Who owns a fucking SNES anymore? How the fuck can it affect the DS' sales.

Me ^_^

Quote from: "Zodiac"How the fuck can it affect the DS' sales.

I Completely agree
Btw I'm so sad that they shutted down the project...
They can do it because of the copyright, but I think they should have taken this in a different way...
They could take some idea and make more money with very little work IMO

I think this whole ordeal is Magitek in disguise.

Quote from: "Voldemort"I think this whole ordeal is Magitek in disguise.

I will bypass the wordfilter because now it's needed a
xD

Quote from: "Zodiac"... Who owns a fucking SNES anymore? How the fuck can it affect the DS' sales.

From what I gather it's pretty much the same game.

Quote from: "Asmo X"

Quote from: "Zodiac"... Who owns a fucking SNES anymore? How the fuck can it affect the DS' sales.

From what I gather it's pretty much the same game.

Yes, they only added the monster arena like in DQ8 and an extra boss (And an extra ending)

Much agreed that the C&D was poorly worded. However, we do hope for communication from Square Enix soon. Like an official response to the uproar. Which would make the situation, well...official, finally.

Quote from: "Voldemort"I think this whole ordeal is Magitek in disguise.

lol.

Quote from: "tithin"I will be blunt seeing as you don't seem to be grasping my point.

Your opinion in regards to Square Enix's course of action is worthless. They have made their position clear. Perhaps they do not wish to pursue having an official release for concerns of quality? Perhaps they do not wish to further confuse the storyline? Perhaps they simply do not want any fan sequel to be done period?

Money is not always the underlying issue with these things, and you should stop thinking purely in monetary values as the reason for this being squished.

Quote from: "Me"If they are shutting down CC's production for money

My statement allowed for other reasons beside money; if they are shutting it down for qualities sake, they should evaluate it for quality.  A,nd as I said, maybe Square has evaluated the game.  Maybe they had a few forumgoers and such checking CC out and deemed it not worthy of thier time.

You keep saying that it doesn't matter what I think Square should do.  I know this.  But that does not mean that I cannot express what it would behoove them to do.  To squash creativity and fans at the same time without even evaluating the situation for possible gain is unwise.

I am grasping your point, but you continue elicit things that I am not saying, and in return, I have to clarify.  And I am not enjoying clarifying because I feel like I'm just arguing with someone who wants to be right and win.

Quote from: "Zodiac"... Who owns a fucking SNES anymore? How the fuck can it affect the DS' sales.

Mine is still very much intact, and very much loved.
Many people still have a SNES.

Quote from: "ehrgeiz20"

Quote from: "Voldemort"I think this whole ordeal is Magitek in disguise.

lol.

I don't mean to "shadow mod" but this is part of the reason the suggestion to make Spam and General into one comes up, please, make sure your posts at least have a reason, that post there is unacceptable in such a serious discussion as this. Remember this is General not Spam.

Quote from: "Kaijyuu""Why would I buy it on the DS when I can already play it on my Super Nintendo or PSX consoles?"

Fix'd.

If you want to be a dick to square, find every Chrono Trigger SNES Cartridge and PSOne Disk and sell it on E-bay, Amazon, or Craigslist for the cost of shipping on the day before the DS game is going to be released.  Except your own, of course.

Quote from: "death is the road to awe"

Quote from: "Kaijyuu""Why would I buy it on the DS when I can already play it on my Super Nintendo or PSX consoles?"

Fix'd.

Neither of those are handheld systems. Which is the biggest reason to buy it over the SNES, and second biggest over PSX (lag being 1).

Quote from: "Zodiac"... Who owns a fucking SNES anymore? How the fuck can it affect the DS' sales.

I own an SNES, it is the magical system.

Also I understand why SE would do this, and they have every right to shut down CC. On that note though I don't believe it was necessary. What I believe SE is really doing is what they always do, relive past success. I don't want to see another rerelease of CT I would like to see a sequel or a full upgrade. The game was great, but I have played it to death. No more I say! CT should be laid to rest like the dead legend it is.

Quote from: "Kuraudo Sutoraifu"My statement allowed for other reasons beside money; if they are shutting it down for qualities sake, they should evaluate it for quality.

I agree Kuraudo, Square should evaluate the game if they're concerned about quality, but I guess that's not the kinda dance they'll do. Part of it stems from the fact that the C&D was sent from the legal department, the creatives probably haven't ever heard about this. If Square contacted members of the original Chrono Trigger team, that would have been fantastic--since they're the kind of people that might give this a second thought...

The Legal Department is told by the higher-ups about what they have to do and who they have to send C&D letters too. I highly doubt Legal departments act and send C&D letters to everything they think is infringing IP without first consulting it to a higher-up. Rite?

Quote from: "Voldemort"The Legal Department is told by the higher-ups about what they have to do and who they have to send C&D letters too. I highly doubt Legal departments act and send C&D letters to everything they think is infringing IP without first consulting it to a higher-up. Rite?

It highly depends on how the company works. There are some companies that expect their legal department to go about making sure everything is fine, without anyone having to tell them what to do. As a VG company goes though I think you have the right of it in that they cannot always trust the legal department to know when someone is going too far. Unless they have already set up guidelines.

Quote from: "mav"If Square contacted members of the original Chrono Trigger team, that would have been fantastic--since they're the kind of people that might give this a second thought...

They are encased in carbonite at Square headquarters as statues, to be wakened should Square ever fall on hard times.  So, that's a no go on speaking with them.  Likewise with the FF7 team which is why most FF7 nowadays either rewrites FF7 history of has some goofy storyline.

Quote from: "darthpaul"

Quote from: "Voldemort"The Legal Department is told by the higher-ups about what they have to do and who they have to send C&D letters too. I highly doubt Legal departments act and send C&D letters to everything they think is infringing IP without first consulting it to a higher-up. Rite?

It highly depends on how the company works. There are some companies that expect their legal department to go about making sure everything is fine, without anyone having to tell them what to do. As a VG company goes though I think you have the right of it in that they cannot always trust the legal department to know when someone is going too far. Unless they have already set up guidelines.

I see

I wonder if SE's legal dep was ordered by higher ups to take care of the CT IP issues and send the C&D

or if their legal dep just goes ahead and C&D's whatever they see as a threat

I've been wondering the same thing...I mean, it's not like the legal department can just do willy-nilly, but at the same time it's seems absurd for the Square elite to have to deal with something so petty. Perhaps the legal dept found the hack, reported it, and were given the okay to close it, while the higher-ups really didn't give it much thought.

These are the Japanese we are talking about. What I find odd is that normally they embrace fan makes of their stuff. Be it patches for games, doujinshi, or even a lowly plush doll. Because they see it as the potential to bring in new people to their franchise. The fact that SE says no to CC means they have foregone the norm for a Japanese company/product maker.Unless of course it is the North American version of SE. Which would mean they obviously did not contact their counterpart about it. Meaning SE is not to blame, but greedy American CEOs.

Quote from: "FaustWolf"Much agreed that the C&D was poorly worded.

...They are Japs! Not being racist or anything but they start learning English so late that most of them seriously suck at it.

Well no... you should really read the one sent to Chrono Resurrection that one was written very well and wasn't condescending. It also mentioned the certain law firm that they were representing and it was definitely a Japanese name. Also I doubt that is the work of Japanese people if it's coming out of California.

It would be hilarious if the C&D given to Resurrection was written by Japanese lawyers and the C&D given to the Compendium was written by Square-USA lawyers.

Oh, wait, reading LastingDawn's post...looks like that may be what happened. Hmm!

Wait, I'm confused.  I thought that if they weren't profiting from it in any way, the they can do whatever they wanted.  How could they be legally shut down?

Read the thread Havermayer

Quote from: "FaustWolf"It would be hilarious if the C&D given to Resurrection was written by Japanese lawyers and the C&D given to the Compendium was written by Square-USA lawyers.

Oh, wait, reading LastingDawn's post...looks like that may be what happened. Hmm!

http://www.chillingeffects.org/derivati ... iceID=1416 (http://www.chillingeffects.org/derivative/notice.cgi?NoticeID=1416)

some things of note;

1) Was sent by a genuine law firm, not a generic "Square Enix Legal Department"

2) Refers to Square by their trading name.

3) Is far more civil than the new one.

shit.. I had forgotten how the C&D sent to CC: Resurrection went

worlds difference between the two eh

Yes, we have certainly noted the difference in language, tone, and professionalism between the two C&Ds. It's unfortunate that two Compendium members have been able to get through to SE legal and confirm that Square Enix did, indeed, send this. And I remain fully convinced that this is not some kind of sick promotion strategy for Crimson Echoes -- otherwise Square Enix certainly WOULD find out about the mod now that it's being talked about all over the Internet. Plus, I'd be royally pissed that all my work on new tech coding went to waste. And 30 hours of tech coding only makes me "tangentially" involved in the production of CE compared to what the core three-member team put into the project.

Yeah I believe you, as shitty as the new C&D is...

Because if it was fake, Square would come out and say they issued no such C&D in their own defense, and probably want someone accountable for spreading lies about their legal dep

Interesting observation. I was worried that SE's continuing silence might suggest to people that the C&D was fake, but given the fallout, it would be in SE's best interest to put down such a rumor. To up the ante, we'll be releasing gameplay footage of the beta to keep the story alive, and keep the heat on SE.

This may be the beginning of a freedom-in-modding revolution.

That is a good plan if it could give game modders more freedom for their exploits. The problem I find is they may decide to go after you for having gameplay footage of a game you destroyed. It does not make sense for them to do so, but the C&D on a non-profit project makes little sense either. They obviously are looking to uphold the "integrity" of their all-star game and may decide that you are trying to "steal" the idea from them. While this is clearly not the case, the law will side with them because they not only own the game, they have the money for a better offense then you guys can afford a defense for. This is why I believe the judicial system is corrupt, it should not matter how much money you have but what the law actually says. Also the law is up to the interpretation of the judge. Which means the law is different depending on which court room you are sitting in. Which is bullshit, the law is the law and is clear enough that interpretation should be illegal because it allows corporations to infringe upon the right of their consumers to retain "rights" the corporation never actually held in the first place. I understand the concept of "intellectual property" but in all honesty the concept is iffy in the way it is interpreted.

^What he said.  There's no way any part of the US gov't would ever side with us;  we don't have money.

Although I'm inclined to agree that success in trial is determined by wealth, it might not be the case. I mean, tens of members over at the Compendium have provided pseudo-legal precedents and cases that may apply to this case, but since we have no real legal representation it doesn't really matter. I think if we had a qualified lawyer or a dedicated group (a lot of people are mentioning the Electronic Frontier Foundation) could win this case, but it's just too strenuous on the people involved. Cause unlike us, this is what Square's legal department does for a living, so they're probably giddy at the prospect of flexing their muscle.

I'm not saying they couldn't win, but that they will recieve NO help from the establishment.  They may even be targeted by agents of the status quo (IRS, FBI) because people with money have lobbyists.

In Canada, you have the right to ask for a jury under any condemnation.

Jury cuts, and the judge decides of the sentence.

Quote from: "Zodiac"In Canada, you have the right to ask for a jury under any condemnation.

Jury cuts, and the judge decides of the sentence.

I'm glad this place is hosted in Canada... isn't it?

no

Canadian hosts cost way too much >_>

Does it matter?  Would they target you, the guy paying for it (thank you, BTW), based on where you live or where it's hosted?

The Canadian privacy laws are good enough to keep them from targeting anyone if it was hosted in Canada. Other than that I haven't got an answer for that question.

Despite claims of my naivety (at worst I'm a hopeless idealist) I do understand Square's side. However, I think they're motivated by potential loss of profit (read greed) as they are a for-profit organization. And I think they are wrong.

Regardless of my opinion there seems to be plenty of legal precedent for SE to fail at stifling CC's works.
For all intents and purposes the law is mostly on CC's side, and it doesn't help SE that they are claiming the circumvention of imaginary "copy protection". It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

What Square should be focused on:

Final Fantasy XIII (Japanese & US)
Final Fantasy Versus XIII (Japanese & US)
Final Fantasy Agito XIII (Japanese & US)
Dissidia: Final Fantasy (US Version)
The next Kingdom Hearts game...

These games look like they're going to be amazing and probably will receive lots of money. Why not focus on releasing those games instead of:

Shutting down CC's epic projects for an awesome game on an old ass system.

why not do both?

Quote from: "philsov"why not do both?

Why ruin some else's life, instead of doing things to make yours better? What possibly is Square going to gain out of this?

QuoteWhat possibly is Square going to gain out of this?

A decent chunk of control, I'd guess.  This sort of precedent has some pretty nasty ripples of the ability (if they choose to persue) of stopping hacking of any square-enix game, which is the majority of SNES and PSX era games worth hacking in the first place.  

There is an economic (in the most literal and legal term) loss when their copyright is used on projects which can take ANY amount of revenue from themselves.  Think about it... would you prefer a straight platform port ($40+), or a hack of the game with different enemy difficultly and re-balanced game mechanics?  Oh, and the hack is free.

Using the FFT:complete project as an example; While it is a wonderful hacking project in terms of flexing muscle (adding jobs onto the wheel, new fights, new items, etc), if one person doesn't buy the PSP version because it's now readily available, and better (haha lag), SE has every right to shut the project down.  

To my knowledge many known hacks (the SNES translation patches --  FFV/SD3/BL.  <3 Neill Corlett and SoM2Freak) are still readily available and it's impossible that no one anywhere within SE doesn't know about them.  There's some things they let slide, or at the very least did in the past.  Maybe they're tightening their grip, maybe they just care a lot about Chrono Trigger.  No matter the case, they are very much entitled to do whatever the hell they want.

Quote from: "philsov"

QuoteWhat possibly is Square going to gain out of this?

A decent chunk of control, I'd guess.  This sort of precedent has some pretty nasty ripples of the ability (if they choose to persue) of stopping hacking of any square-enix game, which is the majority of SNES and PSX era games worth hacking in the first place.  

There is an economic (in the most literal and legal term) loss when their copyright is used on projects which can take ANY amount of revenue from themselves.  Think about it... would you prefer a straight platform port ($40+), or a hack of the game with different enemy difficultly and re-balanced game mechanics?  Oh, and the hack is free.

Using the FFT:complete project as an example; While it is a wonderful hacking project in terms of flexing muscle (adding jobs onto the wheel, new fights, new items, etc), if one person doesn't buy the PSP version because it's now readily available, and better (haha lag), SE has every right to shut the project down.  

To my knowledge many known hacks (the SNES translation patches --  FFV/SD3/BH.  <3 Neill Corlett and SoM2Freak) are still readily available and it's impossible that no one anywhere within SE doesn't know about them.  There's some things they let slide, or at the very least did in the past.  Maybe they're tightening their grip, maybe they just care a lot about Chrono Trigger.  No matter the case, they are very much entitled to do whatever the hell they want.

You make a lot of sense. But, if Square is afraid that this will decrease their revenue, why not just use their powers as the creators of the game and use CC's ideas? Square should (not saying they're going to if they did) give CC credit for the idea, and use it in a sequel or another video game. That way everyone wins...sorta. CC's members worked really hard on these hacks and should still be able to post their completed works.

It's a matter of precedent and example.  And it sucks that it's happen to the CC crew, because they did put a LOT of time and effort into the project and can probably dive through the game better than some of the original programmers at this point.  But... SE wants to make the message clear imo.  Letting them post completed works is being way too soft and using CC's ideas is also borderline intellectual property theft and therefore hypocritical.  

Plus, putting effort into an illegal action doesn't somehow make it legal.

Quote from: "philsov"It's a matter of precedent and example.  And it sucks that it's happen to the CC crew, because they did put a LOT of time and effort into the project and can probably dive through the game better than some of the original programmers at this point.  But... SE wants to make the message clear imo.  Letting them post completed works is being way too soft and using CC's ideas is also borderline intellectual property theft and therefore hypocritical.  

Plus, putting effort into an illegal action doesn't somehow make it legal.

Eh, true. I wish it was legal...

This created one heck of a PR nightmare (or at least a veritable minor dilemma) for SE for sure. I'm still holding out hope that a dialogue with Square might convince them to modify their original stance. If not, it certainly will have a chilling effect on interactive fan projects; at least one other major Chrono project - Chrono Ark - de-Chrono-fied itself over this, and it's a shame.

For those here who remain undaunted (the release of the PSP version of FFT does create the same concerns for you that Chrono Trigger: DS created for the Compendium), hopefully the following actions will help preserve the community Zodiac has built here:

1. Do not create professional-looking frontsites or even preview videos to virally advertise the modification before it releases, no matter how uber it truly is. No hype; your project will eventually spread via word-of-mouth, and if you're really daring you can do a professional-looking preview after it hits the Internet and you know there's already been some downloads.

2. The Chrono Compendium didn't do this either (Agent12 was going to use crimsonechoes.com as a frontsite for the project's release and distribution), but do not use Final Fantasy Hacktics as a distribution point for a completed project or even demos. Throw up a torrent or better yet, a Rapidshare, Sendspace, Megaupload, etc., link -- torrents could expose your IP address to prying eyes. File hosting sites at least give the uploader a bit more anonymity than the typical torrent client...as far as I know.

3. Use some totally unheard-of, out-of-the-way site as your distribution point or just to list file hosting links or torrent tracker info. I intend to continue modification endeavors elsewhere, for example, and I'm planning on using a project member's old password-protected, satanic-looking death metal forum as the distribution hub provided it still exists when the project in question hopefully completes a few years down the road.

4. It would appear for the time being that sites like Romhacking.net are still unknown to Square Enix, because the elder Compendium mod "Prophet's Guile" is still sitting right there, undisturbed, and ready for download. Thus, that might be the most reliable option for project distribution going forward.

5. If your project appears to really be taking off, see if Zodiac can hide your forum from guests and regular users. That sounds kind of intellectually dishonest, but for all I know you guys are already exercising this practice. Cut out *all* chatter about your project on forums accessible to guests and regular members as well. Don't even use code language. I was saying, "Oh man, you guys are gonna loooove CE" on open forums right up until we received the C&D, and I feel kind of responsible for not exercising due diligence now.

I always looked to Crimson Echoes to set the standard for how to handle release of fan modifications in the future, and it's horrible it had to happen in this way. But don't let that chill you to the point of giving up the art of game modification, and all the other arts that go along with it. If the Intellectual Property holder lets his or her world rot with no indication of further treatment, I say that world is fair game for a fan game.

GOD, I've been wanting to express that last point somewhere, but I have a feeling it won't be quite as well taken in most of the communities we've been reaching out to after the C&D as it will be here.

Totally offtopic, but...

How's CT hacking coming along in terms of tools? I know SNES asm, but after working with super mario world for a while, the prospect of modifying undocumented code is a little horrifying.

Wow, that's awesome that you're already in the 64 bit realm Kaijyuu. The Compendium had a tech editor on-hand and was set to unveil a sprite assembler before this mess. I think virtually everything a modder needed (including tutorials) would have been available this summer, and CT SNES would have been really blown open. We were kind of stand-offish about learning to mod CT:DS just because there was already so much we could do with CT:SNES.

You can still find Temporal Flux at other sites, maybe even at Romhacking.net if it was released there. However, I suspect the sprite assembler and tech editor will no longer be supported, and I'm not even sure I'd receive clearance to port them to another location, seeing as the author may wish to protect himself from further liability. Completely understandable. On the other hand, I have records of all the knowledge one needs to perform CT sprite assembly and insertion that I compiled from everyone's collective notes, and I'm sure porting the raw knowledge over to wherever the next home of CT modification will end up being. I actually did some tech editing by hand in a hex editor as well as sprite assembly, so while tedious, that kind of work could continue even with the tools no longer supported in the worst case scenario.

It would be lovely to find a programming wizard capable of carrying on the work left by the original authors though.

I don't know why EVERYONE on the interbutts isn't up in arms over this.  I mean, if they target the modders, who's next?  Fanfic writers?  SE art sites?  People using a SE image as an avatar?  And what will other companies think when they see SE's efforts working?  This could set up some nasty precedents.

Heh, I just noticed I misquoted a Holocaust movie... First them came for group A and I said nothing, then for group b and I said nothing, and when they came for me, there was no one left to say anything.

I've heard that Holocaust quote somewhere before, and I sincerely hope it doesn't apply to what's going on right now. I just learned over at GameFAQs (apparently full of saintly guardians of artists' intellectual property) that Anne Rice forbids fan fiction based on her own works, and further research indicates anecdotally that she's actively hounded fan authors.

How sick is that? I mean, jeez, to forbid an avenue of intellectual development to one's own fans just seems absurd. What, you can introduce ideas into people's minds and legally forbid them to take them further, even if just for inter-fan entertainment while they wait for the next official installment? I'm not sure I would have picked up on the literary technique "show me, don't tell me," had I not seen it so well-done in a Sephiroth fanfic on RPGamer years ago, for example.

To lift a potentially apropos quote from Mammie: "It ain't fittin'; it just ain't fittin."

what makes it worse about her is she did what now? go christian or something and stop writing those interesting vampire stories. what happened to ms bianca?

I read something along those lines. Sooo, if Anne Rice stops writing vampiah novels and doesn't make use of the world she invented ever again, that's kind of like Square Enix abandoning Final Fantasy Tactics. I mean, I realize there's the Ivalice Alliance, but other than milking FFT on the PSP, it seems focused more on the Final Fantasy XII-phase of the world.

Just saw this today and I find it extremely heartening:
http://thehuntforgollum.s3.amazonaws.com/index.html (http://thehuntforgollum.s3.amazonaws.com/index.html)

Great things happen when fans are given the freedom to let their imaginations flow into something real others can enjoy. That's ultimately the meaning behind what we do.

I'd love to have some of the sprite/tech data for CT. I've always wanted to make a few personal changes for fun.
It'd be great to have that data available.

When all the cards fall -- could take all next week probably, cards fall slow when communication is happening between a fan site and a multinational corporation it seems -- I'd be glad to share the technical info I can preserve and/or recover. The old Kajar Labs community will probably toss it up on datacrystal.org...
http://www.datacrystal.org/wiki/Chrono_Trigger (http://www.datacrystal.org/wiki/Chrono_Trigger)

...and/or transfer it to a new modding community.

Anne Rice is officially a bitch. I don't see why people make such a big fuss over fan work. The key word is "fan". If I had lots of fans, I would feel awesome that my work is so amazing, people want to make their own stories based off that, as long as they give me credit.

i would be happy if ppl loved my work and wanted to add their own twist... i dont see why it should be a problem for them, especially if those ppl dont get any money out of it. damn it anne! what happened to bianca! lol

If she doesn't like fanfiction, maybe she needs fewer fans.

Quote from: "death is the road to awe"If she doesn't like fanfiction, maybe she needs fewer fans.

This, This, This, This, This.

In fact, tell that to Squeenix, too.  "If you don't want fan-based projects, maybe you need less fans."

The greatest form of flattery is imitation.

Guess squeenix doesn't see it that way.

Quote from: "Kaijyuu"The greatest form of flattery is imitation.

Guess squeenix doesn't see it that way.

Exactly right. Maybe if they get their heads out of their asses (including Anne Rice) they could see the brilliance of fanwork.

Quote from: "Kaijyuu"The greatest form of flattery is imitation.

that's cute, but copyright laws exist for a reason, and legal action is enforced for them for a reason

square obviously doesn't want others imitations their IP, and have every right to stop that from happening

Quote from: "Voldemort"

Quote from: "Kaijyuu"The greatest form of flattery is imitation.

that's cute, but copyright laws exist for a reason, and legal action is enforced for them for a reason

square obviously doesn't want others imitations their IP, and have every right to stop that from happening

New amendments and interpretation of laws exist for a reason, too.

You can't say what SE wants anymore than the rest of us.

And SE only has a right to stop copyright infringement that it can prove.

BTW, copyright laws exist to prevent others from profiting off your work, not to prevent fan art.

Quote from: "Vanya"BTW, copyright laws exist to prevent others from profiting off your work, not to prevent fan art.

This is the truth of it. My personal belief is that if you don't want to see fan interpretation of your stuff, don't sell your fucking stuff.

Your fans are the ones that give you money. In that regard it should make you happy as hell when they say" yo this is my interpretation of what you did, I don't plan to profit from it" then you should get out of whole circle of idea profiteering. What do you get by ticking off your fanbase? A whole lot less money next time you release a unit(whatever said unit may be). The fact you don't want that to happen means that you have stepped out of the realm of reality in a dream world where people only allow their time to be occupied by corporate produced products. This reality is what I like to call the "I don't think my shit stinks" world. Everything will have fan interpretations to keep the fun going far after the game(or whatever) has lost it's luster, or.........your product sucks so many balls that people don't want anything to do with it.

Putting a bit of code in a ROM that makes it freeze isnt copyright protection. Its Anti-Piracy. You know who did it, it has their label ALL over it, they cant do anything else to make you realize that, short of having it appear as a water mark on the top right of the screen. it even gives the companies name on the title screen more often then not. (example; "1997/1998 Square" thats when you boot up FFT)

My mom is a paralegal and works on criminal defense, and has in the past worked on law interpretation. Truth be told, even without her input, i know SE is being vague and threatening. Copyright Laws vary from country to country, just like emulation and/or backups(example would be pirate bay, who only got caught recently due to law changes).

Even if they copyrighted here in america, they Patented/Copyrighted it FIRST in Japan. she listed several countries that specifically state you cannot claim rights as a whole to what a consumer does to your product after it has left your country, or the area of original copyrighting. You can only say "I'm the company that did it first! thats my product!"

If the above fails, and theres very little reason it should, even if the first part of that law doesnt exist in Japan, SE America can piss all they want, but if you are not selling it, physically or virtually, it is considered unharmful. A judge has better things to law over then something that is causing no economic harm.

If a judge does decide to try and fuck you over; Bring up Japan. And its Anime. And its Doujin.

Do you know what Doujinshi are? they are FAN MADE manga. YOU CAN SELL those(to some extent) and actually make money if you want to in japan. without the original creators or copyrighters consent. Hundreds upon hundreds of porn is made this way using innocent characters from a childrens anime show, and the owner has no control.

What makes it any different for Video Games? Intelectual property or not, they ahve no arguement if your not providing the original rom, and are not making profit(Donations included, so if you got those i suggest you remove them :/)

I honestly asked my mom, and filled her in with alot of details. She talked to her Boss. If they tried you, and went to court, they would lose, nearly hands down, in few hearings. Even if you defended yourself(as opposed to using an ignorant lawyer). Most lawyers dont know shit about actual emulation or piracy laws(look at TPB and all the humiliating letters they got from ignorant lawyers).

Truth is my moms boss dabbles a bit FF 1+2 hacking. He knows more about this shit than anyone, and to keep his ass clean, im sure.

TL;DR

Fight em, or scare em off. Ive got the number of a good legal lawyer who knows wtf he is doing for this kind of thing if you need it(they would have to try you as a criminal unfortunatly though =( )

To DP & SB:

You shall be rewared for you wonderful speeches! Zodiac stones for both of you!

Back on topic...

I did not know people profitted from doujinshi. This adds more to our arsenal of reasons why Square should get off CC's back.

I don't really see why we're so afraid of being shut down. If we get shut down, we'll just pull a Gang Garrison 2 and make a parody version.

On an unrelated note, now that Chrono Compendium is down, maybe we can ask some of the former members to help us out here?

The Compendium is still up, but the hub of their fan-projects and ROM hacks (Kajar Labs) is currently gone. Though I wouldn't be too surprised if some of the developers of CE are a little weary about working on more fan projects right now. But who knows? Maybe they're ready to get their hands dirty again--a lot of 'em had a phenomenal range of skills...

its really sad that all that talent and effort went to waste u know, it wasnt like they were going to make money out of it or claimed it as their own property

Square-Enix even went as far as to sue a 13 year old kid for releasing advent children on youtube 4 Christ's-sake

those bastards suck dick 4 money lets be real here lol

we're better off keeping this shyt on the DL

and if they somehow find out about us and bitch, then we stop..............or do we?

Quote from: "Voldemort"

Quote from: "Kaijyuu"The greatest form of flattery is imitation.

that's cute, but copyright laws exist for a reason, and legal action is enforced for them for a reason

square obviously doesn't want others imitations their IP, and have every right to stop that from happening

Indeed.

Quote from: "Dokurider"On an unrelated note, now that Chrono Compendium is down, maybe we can ask some of the former members to help us out here?

...what?

Do you have any idea of what they're going through?

- Oh crap, SE shuts a project we've been working for 5 years... damn...
- We can't just stay here and do nothing about it.
- Right, let's go help the folks at FFH.

FFH and CC are two distinguished game hacking communities. In times like this, we shouldn't see this as an opportunity to gain more hackers! We have to support them.

yea the boss is right after all, its only in human nature (well 2 some anyway) to help those out in need, especially seeing as how all that passion and ambition was just tossed aside and completely devastated

and God-forbid the same shit can happen here u know

Well, what are we supposed to do about it?

well the only thing we can do now is to keep doing what we are doing n not promote ourselves to the extreme

there are a lot of snitches out there

its best to stay under the radar and do what we are doing

the mistake of the other guys was that they kept on putting themselves on blast, they threw themselves out there hard-body

which is why everybody and their mom's knew what was going on, it even went as far as Square-Enix which is why they did what they did

That is incorrect, they were very low brow for a rom hack, they tried to keep themselves hidden and had a small devoted team of testers. Square has only attacked Chrono Trigger, because they Actively protect that franchise, they have in the past. A final fantasy hack has never been attacked. I feel we are perfectly safe, and if they do come after us, I don't think we'll just roll over and die. I think we'd handle the situation with an amount of grace.

Can anyone fucking name of FF projects worth mentioning? Beside 1.3 that is.

yea I guess u have a point LastingDawn

well lets hope it never happens

well as for a decent FF project would be my friend Zeemis' Revelations hack for FF6 its still early but its going great :p

still 1.3 blows it away in the sense that its done and also off the fact that its a playstation game n he is hacking the snes version of the game

oh yea the guys @ slickproductions.org as well :p

There are no real mods on slickproductions.org

well, yea u have a point there

still they are pretty good @ what they do I give them that

u guys are on top tho no question (not trying 2 kiss ass I'm just telling it like it is)

Jorgen just recently completely dissassembled the FF V SNES ROM.

Pandora FF6 project recently unlocked event editing, and made a tool for it(much like the tool for CC i think).

Not alot of mods on either point, as zodiac said, but Jorgen did alot of the hacking/debugging himself. And the Pandora team is very small and still gets alot of hacking done.

As has been previously mentioned I think we will be safe, because SE is a company built around beating a dead horse. As long as we stay from CT and possibly FF7 I don''t think they will ever see us as a threat. Though I wish to see the CC hacks back in full swing when all this blows over but only time will tell.

Quote from: "Zodiac"

Quote from: "Dokurider"On an unrelated note, now that Chrono Compendium is down, maybe we can ask some of the former members to help us out here?

...what?

Do you have any idea of what they're going through?

- Oh crap, SE shuts a project we've been working for 5 years... damn...
- We can't just stay here and do nothing about it.
- Right, let's go help the folks at FFH.

FFH and CC are two distinguished game hacking communities. In times like this, we shouldn't see this as an opportunity to gain more hackers! We have to support them.

To add more to that we do not want to go above the radar and be found as well.

Quote from: "ehrgeiz20"To add more to that we do not want to go above the radar and be found as well.

I don't think much would happen if we where "discovered" by SE. Sure they would give us a smack on the risk and say "don't do that", but honestly I don't think they care enough about FFT to threaten legal action against us.  

Who know maybe they already found us, but are too scared of Asmo to say anything.

All joking aside we are most likely in the clear indefinitely as far as FFT hacking goes. If you look at most of us, we all rightfully bought the game ( money in their pockets) and some of us have multiple hard copies. Cause let's face it, innovation wise it is the best game in the series.The only reason it is under the radar of popularity is because all the variables make it difficult for casual and "average" gamers to play. Which is also why I am proud of those here, for they show that they have the brain power to understand FFT, a game which some of the smartest people I know have difficulty with just based on Zodiac compatibility and B/F.

if 1.3 didn't cause legal action against FFH, I'm sure the next project to top it popularity-wise could do the trick

I don't see why they would be protective of CT and not FFT... the fan bases for both games are valuable $ wise, is CT's fan base really that much bigger than FFT's?

Quote from: "Voldemort"is CT's fan base really that much bigger than FFT's?

A google search showed more results for ct than fft and that search didn't exclude the advance versions.

QuoteAll joking aside we are most likely in the clear indefinitely as far as FFT hacking goes. If you look at most of us, we all rightfully bought the game ( money in their pockets) and some of us have multiple hard copies.

darthpaul, don't think for a second that that's enough to keep you in the clear. However, it's interesting to note that the "end users have their own copies" argument flies much more easily for PSX games than SNES games since it's very easy to pull your own copy from the CD if you have the right software, which Google can handily provide for free. No wires involved.

Quoteif 1.3 didn't cause legal action against FFH, I'm sure the next project to top it popularity-wise could do the trick

Wise advice Voldemort. Even before Prophet's Guile there was the Chrono Trigger Retranslation and Chrono Trigger Hard Type. Every new project completed within the Chrono community upped the ante to the next level, and Crimson Echoes pushed it too far. And while one could argue that SE might ignore mods released under the radar, they did call for Prophet's Guile and all other mods to be nixed from the Chrono Compendium's server ex post facto. Everything was still up at ROMhacking.net last I checked, so my guess is SE just doesn't know about that community yet.

Zodiac, huge thanks for the support. It really helps to know that there are other communities out there that just get it when it comes to videogame modding, and how these projects can grow into really enriching experiences. Once this is all over I'll certainly stick around here to study up on Final Fantasy Tactics file formats; the Chrono Compendium had just started to get its feet wet in Playstation modding, so it's always great to see how more experienced communities have done it.

Quote from: "FaustWolf"darthpaul, don't think for a second that that's enough to keep you in the clear. However, it's interesting to note that the "end users have their own copies" argument flies much more easily for PSX games than SNES games since it's very easy to pull your own copy from the CD if you have the right software, which Google can handily provide for free. No wires involved.

I don't think it will keep us in the clear when our time comes. What I do think is it "should" keep us clear, because the way I see it they are violating our rights as consumers by saying "you are not allowed to mess around with the product you legally purchased". I still have my copy of CT for SNES and a homemade adapter that connects it to my PC. <--The fact I have not tried any hacking on it before is that I have the PSX version too and was never dissatisfied. I find it disturbing however that they have the cahones to tell us we do not have the right that some countries (if not most) give their consumers, because we(in the SNES versions case my parents) have spent our hard earned money on these cartridges and disks and in theory that gives us the right not only to the gameplay but also the code that puts the game together. After all we bought the idea, not the copyright. So it only makes sense that any hacks produced by the talented hackers such as yourselves should be perfectly legal. The fact that it isn't proves that every day the laws created to "protect" us are holding us back and violating our rights to just about anything.

Though I might try looking at this from a different perspective. The George Carlin perspective. We have no rights, rights are an illusion produced by our minds. Where would our rights come from other than a god. If god says we have right why are they different in all countries.

What I'm getting at is either SE respects our right and we will respect theirs. If not then no one has right and we will do it anyway. As a productive mind I love SE they have made games I love above most other for innovation and good stories. A list of what they have brought to me is the FF series, Radiata Stories, Star Ocean, and KH just to name a few.

I loved Radiata Stories (example time) and if they don't make a sequel to it (a good one) then I am all for a hacking project on it in the future.

yea Darthpaul is 100% right when it comes right down to it, if you got something that you paid for and its rightfully yours.....u can do whatever the hell u want with it

of course this is all non-profit so SE rlly needs to hop off  some nut-sacks lets be 4real here

Quoteyea Darthpaul is 100% right when it comes right down to it, if you got something that you paid for and its rightfully yours.....u can do whatever the hell u want with it

Not according to US law.  Read an instruction booklet sometime.

No way phil. If I pay for a game I can cut it in half and use the sharpened edge to slice my bastard uncles throat with it. My defense = I paid for it. I can do whatever I want.

look, its as I said before its non-profit, you are not selling it, if you bought it legally, you can legally edit it as you please, as long as you credit the original creator/owner and acknowledge his/her ownership so long as it is promotional and non-profit you can do whatever you want

I know my stuff philsov :p

QuoteI know my stuff philsov

No, you don't.  

It's illegal to make or own a copy of the game for any purpose.  

When you dump the ROM so you can edit it, you're breaking the law.  When you have an edited rom (or any rom, frankly), you're breaking the law.  

Giving SE credit won't save you from a civil suit.

ok man w/e I'm not gonna argue with u online

I live in houston and have a kickass couch.

Poco Loco got told lol. But wow, fuck SE. Just because they don't WANT those guys to talk about their conversations, whats stopping them? What can they do if the CE team tells us about their convos with SE? The answer is fuck all.

Quote from: "Poco Loco"ok man w/e I'm not gonna argue with u online

Poco I was saying that that is the way it should be. It is not actually that way, so what you are saying is very off base.

Quote from: "beawulfx"No way phil. If I pay for a game I can cut it in half and use the sharpened edge to slice my bastard uncles throat with it. My defense = I paid for it. I can do whatever I want.

You wouldn't be violating any copyright law, though.

Quote from: "philsov"

QuoteI know my stuff philsov

No, you don't.  

It's illegal to make or own a copy of the game for any purpose.  

When you dump the ROM so you can edit it, you're breaking the law.  When you have an edited rom (or any rom, frankly), you're breaking the law.  

Giving SE credit won't save you from a civil suit.

This, yeah.

Apparently a kid at another forum (http://kagerostudios.b1.jcink.com/index.php?showtopic=330&st=120&#entry15931) (scroll down to Alienat0r's post and open the hidden tag) may have emailed Square to let 'em know about the ROM hack. While no one's 100% certain that the email he posted (http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/8064/emailt.png) is legit, the ign (http://boards.ign.com/nintendo_ds_lobby/b7594/179058758/p1/?0) and gamespot (http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=26842157) posts are real and were posted some two minutes before his alleged email, and roughly a month before SE sent the C&D.


...

Wow, I cannot believe someone would stoop so low! That is despicable! Even if they aren't allies or even if they are your most bitter enemies, no self respecting human would do such a thing! We have codes of honor! Well I suppose not everyone does... I hope this fellow faces some sort of karmic backlash.

What a fucking prick. I was just about to post it myself. This guy is catching up to George Bush for my world's most hated person.

Well, assuming the email is legit, he's a complete dick and is literally the source of heartache for people. And assuming it's fake, he's still a dick. It was a pointless and tasteless move...not to mention he lied quite a bit in the email: he claimed the CE guys were planning to make a profit off the game, which is undoubtedly what made Square stomp all over the project.

Fuck, I'm too annoyed to really think about this nonsense.

QuoteIt's illegal to make or own a copy of the game for any purpose.

When you dump the ROM so you can edit it, you're breaking the law. When you have an edited rom (or any rom, frankly), you're breaking the law.

There's some talk on the subject of "format shifting" at the EFF that may be of interest here:
http://w2.eff.org/IP/eff_fair_use_faq.php (http://w2.eff.org/IP/eff_fair_use_faq.php)

What's been recognized as fair use?

Courts have previously found that a use was fair where the use of the copyrighted work was socially beneficial. In particular, U.S. courts have recognized the following fair uses: criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, research and parodies.

In addition, in 1984 the Supreme Court held that time-shifting (for example, private, non-commercial home taping of television programs with a VCR to permit later viewing) is fair use. (Sony Corporation of America v. Universal City Studios, 464 U.S. 417 (1984, S.C.)

Although the legal basis is not completely settled, many lawyers believe that the following (and many other uses) are also fair uses:

Space-shifting or format-shifting - that is, taking content you own in one format and putting it into another format, for personal, non-commercial use. For instance, "ripping" an audio CD (that is, making an MP3-format version of an audio CD that you already own) is considered fair use by many lawyers, based on the 1984 Betamax decision and the 1999 Rio MP3 player decision (RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia, 180 F. 3d 1072, 1079, 9th Circ. 1999.)
Making a personal back-up copy of content you own - for instance, burning a copy of an audio CD you own.



As for alienat0r, any theory that I could come up with just seems so...out there. Did he set a trap by posting those false flag messages at IGN and Gamespot and then linking to them in an email that went straight to higher-ups at Square who make C&D decisions? Did he set up an elaborate hoax meant to garner 15 minutes of fame?

Whatever the case, it would seem that the messages posted at IGN and Gamespot were certainly meant to spread misinformation.

I don't have words to express my disgust.
I can borrow some, though.
If the email is real then this person is a genuine...
"Waste of flesh!"
>Shuma-Goroth
>MvsC.

Wait, are we sure it was alienat0r that sent that link?

No way to tell, right?

Philsov, Faust go take a look at my post a few pages back, on page 7 i think.

After talking with Scott(my moms boss), it appears that it only takes an arguement like this to have a judge wave it. Its to controversial, it is vague, flawed, undecided, unrightful in many respects(the obvious ones most people talk about). VERY few reasons did he say that this would be worth presiding over for a judge. In fact, the biggest reason "They created it. They just dont want someone messing with it, doesnt matter what you do with it."

Words from a criminal defense attorney. Seriously, if your anywhere else but michigan, ohio, new jersy, new york, or maine; you can fight them on this and really do some reputation damage to them as a counter. They have NEVER actually gone to court over a C&D. I bet they really wouldnt know how to handle an actual case hearing.

Quote from: "SentinalBlade"Philsov, Faust go take a look at my post a few pages back, on page 7 i think.

After talking with Scott(my moms boss), it appears that it only takes an arguement like this to have a judge wave it. Its to controversial, it is vague, flawed, undecided, unrightful in many respects(the obvious ones most people talk about). VERY few reasons did he say that this would be worth presiding over for a judge. In fact, the biggest reason "They created it. They just dont want someone messing with it, doesnt matter what you do with it."

Words from a criminal defense attorney. Seriously, if your anywhere else but michigan, ohio, new jersy, new york, or maine; you can fight them on this and really do some reputation damage to them as a counter. They have NEVER actually gone to court over a C&D. I bet they really wouldnt know how to handle an actual case hearing.

Just putting this out there

 13:50   tithin          ò sentinalblade
 13:50   tithin          ò you're right, square wouldnt know how to fight an actual case hearing
 13:50   tithin          ò but their godamn lawyers would

Just so you guys know, this was my response

<SentinalBladeBlade> tith
<SentinalBladeBlade> you have no idea how many lawyers wouldnt
<SentinalBladeBlade> look at TBP as a reference
<SentinalBladeBlade> all the emails they have, NONE of the lawyers knew shit about what they were talking about
<SentinalBladeBlade> Scott mentioned several other big lawyers here in florida. all of them have no idea how to really deal with a case like this
<DarthPaul> Lawyers are the kings of BS.
<DarthPaul> They don't need to know what they are talking about.
<SentinalBladeBlade> on page 7, i explained why he knows things. he actually hacks FF 1 + 2 for the hell of it. he needs to know he can keep his ass clean
<SentinalBladeBlade> right, but if you know what your talking about, and they dont and make up shit, call em on it

their just bullies..stand up to them and eventually they'll back down...

I'm starting to think SE went ballistic because of that dumb-ass posting that CE was an official product of theirs on 2 well known sites.
Something like that would definitely have drawn their attention. That is assuming that the e-mail is a fake. Otherwise...

QuoteSpace-shifting or format-shifting - that is, taking content you own in one format and putting it into another format, for personal, non-commercial use. For instance, "ripping" an audio CD (that is, making an MP3-format version of an audio CD that you already own) is considered fair use by many lawyers, based on the 1984 Betamax decision and the 1999 Rio MP3 player decision (RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia, 180 F. 3d 1072, 1079, 9th Circ. 1999.)
Making a personal back-up copy of content you own - for instance, burning a copy of an audio CD you own.

Fair enough.  I guess this got extended into video games with the 99 decision because most if not all of my old instruction booklets state its illegal to make a copy.  

In either case, though it might now be legal to have a digital backup, this still doesn't handle the distribution.  

Though, yeah, I'm with Vanya.  I think if a dialogue got opened up SE would feel better about the whole thing.  Hell, check this out:

http://www.rpgamer.com/news/Q3-2007/071207a.html (http://www.rpgamer.com/news/Q3-2007/071207a.html)

QuoteOn a similar note, we told Mr. Sakamoto that a fan translation had been done some years ago for Front Mission 1, and asked how he felt about such efforts. The producer replied that he actually found them very encouraging -- it's something the developers should be doing, but because they're not, the fans are doing it instead. He stated that he'd like to be able to give something back to the fans, and would like to thank personally each of the fans that worked on the translation

Translations aren't the same thing as full hacks, but it does offer some hope.

Quote from: "Smitson"their just bullies..stand up to them and eventually they'll back down...

This bully doesn't want you lunch money though, but I'll give it to you that SE is not completely impossible to deal with. Time will tell, and maybe they are doing research into this debacle right now.

Well, after seeing the email that may have started all the controversy, I'm beginning to see SE as less of a bully and more of a mislead buffoon. I mean, if they really thought that the team making Crimson Echoes was doing it for profit, they had every right to shut it down. Now, if they realize that they were intentionally mislead (again, assuming the email was actually sent) perhaps they'll loosen the stranglehold they have on the Chrono (and I guess ROM-hacking) community.

Just as an update on this situation, check out the Compendium frontpage. Not only are we not going to get the hoped-for communication from SE, but we also rooted out a mole it seems. I've done quite a bit of research on this Bruggeman character and it seems his major interests are Chrono and Kingdom Hearts, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to comb through your membership for any of his aliases.

eh how did you catch that guy?

Quote from: "FaustWolf"I've done quite a bit of research on this Bruggeman character and

Moar info please!

Well, it all started with this guy posting at a game development community called Kagero Studios:
http://kagerostudios.b1.jcink.com/index ... entry15910 (http://kagerostudios.b1.jcink.com/index.php?showtopic=330&st=120&#entry15910)

Oops, the denunciation email is gone there. Look here:
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6480/denuciation.png (http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6480/denuciation.png)

If you look at the bottom of the purported denunciation email to Square Enix you'll notice that the guy incompletely blanked out his name -- BAD idea, especially since he used his real name (or what passes as his real world name), traceable to several of his alt accounts/aliases, and which led us to the user at the Compendium known as Dark Serge. With that info giving us probable cause, we approached Kagero for more info on Alienat0r and IP address evidence obliterated any remaining doubts. Since he blanked out his name incompletely, it's my opinion that he wanted to be caught. A game just for kicks. Think of him as a fan project "Jack the Ripper." It's interesting that a videogame technical researcher who was working on Kingdom Hearts model viewing had to stop development at some point after Bruggeman came across the model viewer, but the researcher swears that he did not stop as a result of a C&D, so chalk that up to coincidence.

Whether the denunciation actually happened or not, the incident was spooky enough to warrant his banning. Hope you guys never come across this dude.

EDIT: It was probably incorrect to term this guy a "mole" as I did in my previous post; it wasn't like he was hired by SE to spy on us or anything. Rather, as a fellow Chrono fan he ingratiated himself with the Chrono modding community (he actually beta tested the Compendium's first Chrono Cross mod), then backstabbed us if he really did what he says he did. Why, your guess is as good as mine.

If he did do it he is a backstabber who deserves the banning and any bad publicity that comes with it.

If he did not then he is your guys version of our MagiTek.

Wow, he really did tell SE that you guys were planning to make a profit and that you wanted to "claim copyright for their own"

I am pretty sure that's what got SE to act

that guy is a cunt

also,perhaps all modding sites should have a huge disclaimer in the front that clarifies their position on profit and copyright?

such as

WE DO NOT CLAIM COPYRIGHT AND WE DO NOT PROFIT IN THIS SITE

?

Quote from: "FaustWolf"Well, it all started with this guy posting at a game development community called Kagero Studios:
http://kagerostudios.b1.jcink.com/index ... entry15910 (http://kagerostudios.b1.jcink.com/index.php?showtopic=330&st=120&#entry15910)

Oops, the denunciation email is gone there. Look here:
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6480/denuciation.png (http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6480/denuciation.png)

If you look at the bottom of the purported denunciation email to Square Enix you'll notice that the guy incompletely blanked out his name -- BAD idea, especially since he used his real name (or what passes as his real world name), traceable to several of his alt accounts/aliases, and which led us to the user at the Compendium known as Dark Serge. With that info giving us probable cause, we approached Kagero for more info on Alienat0r and IP address evidence obliterated any remaining doubts. Since he blanked out his name incompletely, it's my opinion that he wanted to be caught. A game just for kicks. Think of him as a fan project "Jack the Ripper." It's interesting that a videogame technical researcher who was working on Kingdom Hearts model viewing had to stop development at some point after Bruggeman came across the model viewer, but the researcher swears that he did not stop as a result of a C&D, so chalk that up to coincidence.

Whether the denunciation actually happened or not, the incident was spooky enough to warrant his banning. Hope you guys never come across this dude.

EDIT: It was probably incorrect to term this guy a "mole" as I did in my previous post; it wasn't like he was hired by SE to spy on us or anything. Rather, as a fellow Chrono fan he ingratiated himself with the Chrono modding community (he actually beta tested the Compendium's first Chrono Cross mod), then backstabbed us if he really did what he says he did. Why, your guess is as good as mine.

FaustWolf... the person being investigated has a rare disease called Magitekidus. This disease causes stupidity of the brain and constipation of the mouth. Other notable symtoms include a desperate need for attention, a need to be hated by all in the community, and they will not to contribute to the projects located upon the site. They may claim to have have AS, but this is no excuse for attentiion whores with this disease. I conducted a thorough research and found out the only ways to cure this disease. The infected person must be beaten senselessly with flames or any blunt object that can be found. Banhammers work the best, but it takes two beatings for them to finally be cured. Flaming works as well.

Lol... But seriously. The guy being investigated is a fucking asshole if he really did this. As a matter of fact he's an ass regardless. Why would you post a sudden email that no one knows about except for you, with the writer's name blocked out. I think he/she did it and they're a traitor. I dislike traitors... I kill the guys that get invited to the enemy party in FFT and WOTL.

FaustWolf, perhaps you could share the IP address and other relevant info with Zodiac (which you may have already done) to block a potential intrusion.

Done, it's always better to be safe than sorry. The only other community besides the Chrono community this guy would pester would probably be any fan community focused on Kingdom Hearts.

Further update, looks like some jerk has leaked a year old version of the ROM.

further further update, someone leaked a 75% complete version

Someone is really trying to get this bunch in trouble. It is despicable.

And not only do the leaks risk financial/legal trouble for the development team, they make them look bad, due to their incomplete nature. On the flip-side, the Compendium has been releasing chapter-by-chapter videos of the beta playthrough...this truly was a project of a high caliber.

http://www.demonoid.com/files/details/1943118/5652096/ (http://www.demonoid.com/files/details/1943118/5652096/)

Quote from: "mav"And not only do the leaks risk financial/legal trouble for the development team, they make them look bad, due to their incomplete nature. On the flip-side, the Compendium has been releasing chapter-by-chapter videos of the beta playthrough...this truly was a project of a high caliber.

lol. Damn those guys for trying to get the Chrono Compendium into deep shit. On top of that, they didn't even have the DECENCY to release the full game for me to play!

How dare they short change us with an incomplete hack! =P

I hope this doesn't come back to bite Faustie and the other Compendium-ites in the buttocks.  Whoever leaked it is a jerk.

Does anyone have an account on demonoid?  Because someone needs to set the people straight who are calling the Chrono Compendium group "pussies" for not releasing it.

Someone is now claiming to have uploaded the 98% complete version on Demonoid, but I call BS. In any case, they used a distribution called NBZ if I remember correctly, which I still haven't figured out.

Quote from: "FaustWolf"Someone is now claiming to have uploaded the 98% complete version on Demonoid, but I call BS. In any case, they used a distribution called NBZ if I remember correctly, which I still haven't figured out.

NBZ is a method of downloading a file through newsgroups. From what I recall, though I could be wrong, it places random files in random newsgroups, and the nbz is basically a "here are all the parts" list, which are then downloaded in order.

Posted by Ratio: 0.00ThroneZwei 19 hours ago    [ Complain ] [ Send PM ]
guys i may have found the 98% complte version but its on news groups i cant get that shit cuz i dont know how to get it lol so i hope u guys can try and grab it n up it theres also some hacks of it im guessing its from the members that got banned from the alpha leak https://bintube.com/nzb/pid/8d0ca6e25d7 ... ection_zip (https://bintube.com/nzb/pid/8d0ca6e25d75d3551e857608c4ce2d67/Chrono_Trigger_hack_collection_zip) and https://bintube.com/nzb/pid/d41ce7a1596 ... Echoes_zip (https://bintube.com/nzb/pid/d41ce7a1596dc6b849087bdceee40782/SNES_Rom_Last_known_build_Chrono_Trigger_Crimson_Echoes_zip)

I have a copy of the file, what can I view to tell if its a legit 98% version or not.

Ok, disregard that, I got the "Here is a little bit of information about this game" on the title screen as shown in one of the recent playthrough videos, this is legit

edit; this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSTpkMB9kNk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSTpkMB9kNk)

apparently it's not the 98% one, disregard.

So tithin, the Bintube NZB file leads to a version that is NOT the 98% version shown in the CEMemorial videos? I think that's what you meant, just trying to be sure. Huge thanks for checking it out.

Yeah, I did some digging around, it's definitely not the 98% version. No rename for characters prior to the first debug room, which is t he first "big" difference for the latest version, right?

Tithin, you wouldn't happen to know offhand if it was it different than the 75% "alpha" version that was leaked earlier, do ya?

Having played neither, I believe it to be the 75% alpha, but have no way of verifying.

Ah, interesting, interesting. The only reason I asked was because a member at the Compendium hinted that another leak may have taken place, and the leaker may have been a beta-tester.

http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/f3n5h/never_before_leaked_chrono_trigger_crimson_echoes/

Bump for the 98% version

O.o

*downloads*