On yonder dayeth of Friday ofe the 10th of April of the yeareth 2009,
Sir Heavenlye Knayght Asmo the XIIth made the followinge statemente:
(http://fftdev.istaken.org/patches/Voldemort/FFT%20V1.3%20Screens/Storyline%20Battles/WOTL%20Script.png)
Argumentation commenceth!
Wow I have very little to say except I disagree with half of that but overall Asmo hit the nail on the head.
Nice accent by the way Arch.
As someone who's first language is not English, I don't know if you'll take my opinion too seriously... BUT
I also think PSP's translation is a fucking unreadable, overly complex, unnecesarily structurated piece of shit. It's the same problem I had with XII. I couldn't understand quite a lot of vocabulary, the sentences were not fluent at all, and all this high-class, uber-formal form of english made the already boring story of XII unbearable. They could've just fixed the typos from the original FFT.. which is only a few word translations and some sentence structure here and there.
No other FFs use that overly complex english. Look at VII, VIII, IX, X for example (IX is a great example).
Wasn't the original Japanese FFT script written in a similarly archaic style?
The game was intended to fit into a medieval setting.
The first script was weak in fitting with this setting, had rotten spelling half the time, and tons of logical errors to boot.
The second version went a little overboard with the archaic terminology and unnecessary changes, but it wasn't that bad.
I think it's silly to complain about it too much anyway.
If it really bothers someone that much then rewrite it and make a path instead of bitching about it.
I actually really like the way they wrote the script for WotL. Like Vanya said, it was intended to fit into a medievil setting.
I have to say WOTL is ALOT better.
WOTL translation is better because it was translated by humans.
Instead of trained chimps?
Vanya hit the nail on the head, it much more truthfully follows the Japanese script (only thing we're missing are parentheses explaining what some words mean, as the Japanese had), but it's not really neccessary, the language isn't really that complicated. (they could have went the original route and made Gaffgarion french, thank goodness they didn't take that!)
My only complaint with the PSP script is "Gragoroth" it is clearly Supposed to be Golagros.
Golagros is a character from the King Arthur legend, he fought Percival (I think...) to a draw, but in the ensuing combat, lost his kingdom. King Arthur recognizing the humility and chivalrous virtue inside of Golagros allowed him to continue ruling his kingdom. These people are supposed to be well versed in classic literature, yet they plainly ignored the legend of Golagros and instead opted for "Gragoroth".
From my re-translations of character names they seem to be choosing which 'r' sounds to convert to 'l' at random. They didn't try to figure out they sounds the Japanese text was trying to emulate.
Here are my translations thus far:
Ramza Beoulve
Delita Heiral -> German?
Algus Sadalfus
Zalbaag Beouvle
Dycedarg Beoulve
Bestrald Larg
Daksmald Goltanna
Ovelia Atkascha
Cidolfus Orlandeau
Maridge Feuneral -> The Japanese have a 'special' love of puns.
Reis Deular
Zalm Luznarda
Orlan Durai -> Funny how the first few kana of 'Orlandeau' and 'Orlan' have almost the same sounds.
Simon Pen Lakeesh -> Sounds like it was supposed to be Arabic or Hebrew.
Gaff Gafgarion ->Hadn't pegged this one for French 'til you mentioned it, LD.
Alphonse D'LaCroix -> Draclau my ass!
Tita Heiral -> Very common Spanish given name.
Malak Galtenarra -> Seems they were trying very hard to make him & his sister sound exotic.
Mesdoram Elmdore
Gelcanis Barrington
Balmafra Lanandeau -> The translators didn't seem to have a good handle on what should and shouldn't be a 'V' sound.
Beowulf Cadmus
Weigraf Folles -> His given name seems to be from the epic of Beowulf as well. The spelling seems off even in the kana.
Mustadio Bunansa
Barto Ludovichi -> I studied Italian for 3 years in HS, so I caught this fuck up real fast.
Volmarv Tingelle
Lofahr Wodring -> This guy is supposed to be demonic with a name like Loffrey?
Islude Tingelle
Cletienne D'Loix -> Totally French.
Rafa Galtenarra
Mileuda Folles
Balk Fendsor
Celia Ledde
Meliadoul Tingelle
Alma Beoulve
St. Ajora Glabados -> Should be Glebados, but it's one of those things that's too ingrained to change now.
Agrias Oaks
Bremont Freidberg -> This is clearly German.
Aliste Rosenheim
Gustav Margriff
Golagros Levigne
Feukes
Deisch
Biggs
Wedge -> I'm not sure if this was a fuck up or not, but come on! How can you have Biggs and not have Wedge?
Quote from: "Vanya"Cletienne D'Loix -> Totally French.
I can't let that one go. At all.
- D'loix isn't a french family name, there's has never been fancy shit like that in french names.
- Yes, Cletienne sounds french.
- From a french point of view, Cletienne would be 100% the name of a girl and 0% the name of a boy.
Quote from: "Vanya"I think it's silly to complain about it too much anyway.
That's why I didn't say anything on the "Final Fantasy: Complete" base patch. Cheetah is giving it the PSP's script.. but I didn't say anything because it's not something that affects gameplay, and we all have played the game enough times to understand the whole story (or most of it :S ).
But all in all I don't like it. I know it fits, and I know it was originally intended, but that doesn't make it more appealing to me. But then again, I said English isn't my first language so don't take me too seriously on this one.
Im italian so no one will care of my opinion...But psp version of the game is truly unreadable.
I've never had problems in understanding english...until that day: the day I bought it.
I feel asleep after 5 second trying to translate it.
FFT for psx is "old fashion language" but still readable...WOTL is shit.
I agree with Asmo X...Fully agree.
I think both are terrible.
It needs a new translation. By someone who knows what the hell they're doing.
It needs a parody revision so that it will utilize WOTL's stupid language into stupid funny launguage.
Quote from: "Zodiac"Quote from: "Vanya"Cletienne D'Loix -> Totally French.
I can't let that one go. At all.
- D'loix isn't a french family name, there's has never been fancy shit like that in french names.
- Yes, Cletienne sounds french.
- From a french point of view, Cletienne would be 100% the name of a girl and 0% the name of a boy.
That's the thing, though. I don't think that all the names were necessarily supposed to be real world names.
I think a lot was lost between the Japanese writers trying to make names sound French, Spanish, etc., and the translators being clueless.
It isn't a new thing, either.
They've been screwing things up since Final Fantasy 1.
Quote from: "boomkick"It needs a parody revision so that it will utilize WOTL's stupid language into stupid funny launguage.
How about a "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" styled script.
Quote from: "Vanya"Quote from: "boomkick"It needs a parody revision so that it will utilize WOTL's stupid language into stupid funny launguage.
How about a "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" styled script.
That.... sounds beautiful.
Be sure to include dialogue about stats and skills.
Also reference a d20 somewhere.
Hmmm...
I stopped seriously reading after the first post. Whatever your opinion of the PSP script, it damn sure isn't worse than the PSX script. Not much more to say, since I see no examples of the criticisms.
*shrugs his shoulders in a nonchalant manner*
If you think this script is unreadable, read English literature. It's worse.
Indeed.
Hmm, I didnt kno so many people hated this script lol. I thought the script was well done and sounded good. I could understand everything they said throughout the game.
I guess it's harsher on people who's first language isn't english.
If you learned Spanish it'd be the same. Spanish from Mexico, Argentina, Cuba, Spain... all are somehow different. If you learned from Argentina and played a game with Spanish from Spain, you'd understand most of it but you'd find lots of words and phrases that'd make you go like "OMGWTF?!"
Quote from: "Tea"If you think this script is unreadable, read English literature. It's worse.
I agree with you in the fact that if you don't know how to read English Literature, particularly old old English, it becomes tricky. The thing is though if you made it through high school in the U.S. on the lowest possible academic track (like me) and got all C's (which is more than easy) then you should have no problems with this script.
No, the script is hardest on people who have a high degree of knowledge and respect for the English language.
That applies to the original then.
yep. It's still better though
Not really.
The original didn't know how to apply basic English, the new one didn't know how to apply archaic English.
It amounts to the same thing, except one uses obscure words. Whupididoo.
OK...
The original's still worse.
Ever read the A Song of Ice and Fire series by George R.R. Martin? Whoever wrote this new script is clearly a fan - of the fanboyish persuasion, no less.
Really, I like a good deal of the new translation, but crap like "Argath Thadalfus" and "Barbaneth" and "Gragoroth" just hits on a minor pet peeve of mine - translating "th"s into words that, when spoken, have the result of sounding like terrible lisps. I realize that they're trying to go for the SUPER MEDIEVAL TIMES feel, but Vagrant Story did that excellently without having places like "the Snowfly Weald" or people named "Ashleigh Rioghtte." After a certain point, it's just pedantic and eye-rolling. FFXII, another localization with that sort of bent, used the words jungle, plains, and steppe - all common-knowledge words. Being purposely opaque is not a plus.
FFXII also used terms like sandsea, highwaste and stilshrine, as well as a few others which I've never seen used anywhere outside of the game...
The thing I hate about the psp script is the switching of L's and R's.
It's just on the boundary of "Japanese can't say l lol".
Honestly, Arazlam and Argath are hard to say, not old(e) english. Alazlam and Algus worked fine.
And did Dycedarg really need the extra a?
Quote from: "Dominic NY18"FFXII also used terms like sandsea, highwaste and stilshrine, as well as a few others which I've never seen used anywhere outside of the game...
All of which echo words still in use. "Siedge Weald"? How many gamers would recognize that "weald" is a word meaning woods or forest (as from the German
wald, meaning the same) without having majored in medieval literature?
YMMV, but I think it's perfectly possible to replicate the tone of a given age without resorting to dead or opaque words like
tor and
halidom.
Quote from: "ArkDelgato"And did Dycedarg really need the extra a?
I think you mean Zalba
ag...
Quote from: "Fosh"All of which echo words still in use. "Siedge Weald"? How many gamers would recognize that "weald" is a word meaning woods or forest (as from the German wald, meaning the same) without having majored in medieval literature?
YMMV, but I think it's perfectly possible to replicate the tone of a given age without resorting to dead or opaque words like tor and halidom.
So a word like
cataract is still used in the manner it's used in XII? And while
halidom is considered archaic,
tor and
weald are not.
I wasn't really disagreeing with your point, but just pointing out that FFXII is guilty of the same thing
They both are, but there is an english term for merging two nouns into one word.
Sandsea. Merges two words, making one basically an adjective to describe the other. Even if this was not the case, its actually often used to describe desert regions like arabia. although "sea of sand" is more commonly versed term. The sand in 12 moves just like a rough sea. its name is apt and appropriate.
Archiac language is all give and take, and if you havnt learned most english terms or rules or systems, its hell to pinpoint whats acceptable today, and what was commonly said during those time. But there is no excuse for using vague terms like Weald, which isnt even archiac adaption. its just how some people with english accents pronounce the german word "Wald"
Quote from: "Dominic NY18"So a word like cataract is still used in the manner it's used in XII?
Actually, yes, I've heard
cataract used in the same spirit, though that was admittedly in an oceanography class. But I'm far more likely to hear it today than I am
weald and
tor.
But yes, I'm aware FFXII's guilty of much the same thing, in parts. However, I think I'm more favorable to it because a man by the name of Alexander Smith (of, yup, Vagrant Story fame) was on board for the localization. He and Joseph Reeder handled the script for the game. Reeder went on to work on the WotL translation, Smith did not. I suspect this has something to do with my preferences.
Quote from: "SentinalBlade"Archiac language is all give and take, and if you havnt learned most english terms or rules or systems, its hell to pinpoint whats acceptable today, and what was commonly said during those time. But there is no excuse for using vague terms like Weald, which isnt even archiac adaption. its just how some people with english accents pronounce the german word "Wald"
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Weald is an English word, attested in Old English. The only connection between that and the German word is that they are probably cognates.
Quote from: "Fosh"Actually, yes, I've heard cataract used in the same spirit, though that was admittedly in an oceanography class. But I'm far more likely to hear it today than I am weald and tor.
Well, how many of us are or were in an oceanography class?
QuoteBut yes, I'm aware FFXII's guilty of much the same thing, in parts. However, I think I'm more favorable to it because a man by the name of Alexander Smith (of, yup, Vagrant Story fame) was on board for the localization. He and Joseph Reeder handled the script for the game. Reeder went on to work on the WotL translation, Smith did not. I suspect this has something to do with my preferences.
Interesting bit of info.
Correction noted, dom, thanks for pointing that out.
While 12 and FFT are guilty of alot of the same things. WOTL is definatly worse, in alot of ways. redundancy is a major part of that. Sauce for the goose ise sauce for the gander, is a really great example(cant remember which scene this one was in)
It does capture a great part of Archaic english; They repeated themselves often, and said meaningless things to "improve" their point. People still do it today. Throw in a seemingly big word, or even mention of another topic, or worse yet, repeating yourself with a slight vocabulary twist. Its done throughout the ages, but more noticeably in Archiac Poetry, or Medieval ballads. And the later usually comes with made up words.
If what they were trying to do was make the people "seem" smart, but failing miserably by todays standards, then they succedd. Theres not much of a point to debate on that without knowing their purpose for it. IF they meant it more appropraitte for the time, they hit the nail on the head, poor sentence structure and oddly placed words. Open any english book and point out several poems that use "learned" grammar AND real words. I doubt Gafily is a real word, even when used in place of the word gay to rhyme with travesty.
------------------
------------
I took marine science and learned about that. But not everyone has that oppurtunity, although most highschools go over underwater activities in science class, or at least skim the subject. It is still a very uncommon word, even when you know it exists.
-------------
---------
That is a really nice bit of info, but the taste of either of doesnt fit. Reeder must have an entirely different vision then smith, as the styles are greatly differing. You can tell smith had more power on the decisions in the original. cause Reeder didnt let any semblance of it into WOTL
P.S. Love the Patapon avatar Dominic
Quote from: "SentinalBlade"While 12 and FFT are guilty of alot of the same things. WOTL is definatly worse, in alot of ways. redundancy is a major part of that. Sauce for the goose ise sauce for the gander, is a really great example(cant remember which scene this one was in)
It does capture a great part of Archaic english; They repeated themselves often, and said meaningless things to "improve" their point.
It's actually not a good example, because that's a real world (archaic) idiom. It's the original version of "What's good for the goose...". Unless you're referring to the way people actually spoke.
The line is spoken by Goltanna in the first scene in Chapter 3.
QuoteP.S. Love the Patapon avatar Dominic
Thanks. I just changed it to another (related) one, but I might change it back.
I was reffering to that; in the way that people still speak in redundancy, just with common vocabulary.
I just beat Patapon 2 a week ago. I really had no idea how addictive a rythm war game could be.
I've read some of the PSP script, and I don't find it hard to understand, and I also prefer it much to the original script.
I think that it is bearable, if not for the mutalated nouns. And its magic not magick
Magick is the older spelling of the word. The U.S. version of is more anglicized to make sense with our grammar rules. You will find that a lot. Like armor and armour are both the correct spelling of the word depending on the part of the world you live in.
Yes but 2 things, 1 there not doing it for that reason, and 2. it just looks plain old stupid, Least with my own personal opinion.
It makes perfect sense if they are trying to make it seem like the game is taking place in a middle ages analogue of Europe.
That's also why so many of the names are French, Italian, Spanish, and German.
^Exactly if you want to make you game seem more authentic then you want the concepts to match.
In this concept they went mideievel which means the dialogue and spelling is gonna be different to fit the era. Your not gonna see a mage saying "yo dude I'm gonna cast some fire magic". It would most likely be "Good ser I shall now cast some flame magicks."
I disagree about the spelling part. It's jarring and doesn't add anything to the script.
Archaic dialogue is different, and potentially adds something worthwhile. It's just difficult to apply, and I think the new translation failed at it.
I agree that they didn't do a great job. But I wouldn't call it jarring.
At any rate, now we have the power to do it better or change the style or whatever we want.
Cletienne D'Loix seems Scotish, or Gaelic to me.
I think it is unmistakably french. May not be 'real' name though.
It is definitely French AND based off a real name, Chretien de Troyes, a French poet in the 12th Century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chretien_de_Troyes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chretien_de_Troyes)
WOTL script is way better imo. I had no problems understanding anything that was written. The game felt much more epic when presented in such a grandiose manner.
Reviving an old thread here, but I'm new and am just seeing it. ^^;
Doesn't "Chretien" mean "Christian" in French? "Kletian" was one of the names that bothered me in the original, since this game is clearly meant to evoke medieval Europe and its religious strife.
Hmm, but the Glabados religion is... well there would be little point to the name "Chretien" , as Christ isn't in FFT, anyhow.
To poke my very late opinion in, I have to agree with Kaijyuu on his points.
On the other hand, I'm quite convinced that SentinalBlade is rather incorrect in his redundancy example. That phrase used is an if-then statement that does not use any more words than it has to. It uses examples, but essentially is "if it is good for this, then it is good for that." Saying the first half only and implying the second half would only make sense to those who are aware of the phrase and would not be understandable to those that are not aware. Basically what I'm getting at is that I believe someone claiming that phrase is redundant probably does not know what the phrase actually means and is just seeing the word "sauce" or "good" twice. Can't see the forest for the trees. (I doubt I need to state this, but just in case, goose is not entirely synonymous with gander.)
Quote from: "LastingDawn"Hmm, but the Glabados religion is... well there would be little point to the name "Chretien" , as Christ isn't in FFT, anyhow.
Even if Christ isn't in FFT, we do see many Christian influences in the game and we occasionally see names evoking Christian allegories. Delacroix, for example; it literally means "of the cross". And while a cross is technically just a figure consisting of two perpendicular lines, is there much doubt that the Cardinal's surname was intended to evoke religious imagery? So whether Cletienne and Kletian are misspellings of Chretien is of keen importance: it seems likely that Cletienne (like Chretien) was intended as another Christian name. Even though Clétienne is a surname of at least two French actors (André Clétienne and Olivia Cletienne) I'm unsure whether it's Christian in nature. Heck, even the Knights Templar is a name shared with a Christian military order, if I'm not mistaken.
While I do prefer the new translation to the old, one thing that has driven me crazy is how they tried to put in d' when it wasn't even possible. D'Lacroix makes no sense!
You're confusing D'Loix for Delacroix, who happens to have a normal name, really. D'Loix is the name chosen for Kletian Drowa (I have to say Drowa sounds infinitely better then D'Loix)
Ah yes, yes I am, though that's butchering what little I remember of French grammar as well. Should be de la Croix if I'm remembering it right. Or I could be just crazy. ^_^
Well, remember that the script was written by a Japanese person whose most likely didn't learn English as a first language, much less any of the romance languages associated with the medieval setting of FFT. Plus you throw the English localisers into the mix who seldom have time to study any notes they might have from the original writers. It's like passing a message through a chain of ppl and it coming out all mangled at the end. And the final nail in the coffin is that the writers could just as easily have made up names that sound similar to the intended language; which is what I think the case is with Cletienne's surname.
@LD: For once I have to disagree with you there. Drowa doesn't even sound European to me.