Projects => Completed Mods => FFT Arena => Topic started by: FFMaster on January 05, 2013, 09:33:37 pm
Title: 139 changes
Post by: FFMaster on January 05, 2013, 09:33:37 pm
In about a week, I'll start work on very 139. Compile a list of changes and bug fixes since I haven't been able to keep up to date. Scholar changes will not be needed. They are getting replaced by Druids and will have different stats and skills
I know everyone has different ideas currently on things like spellguns and Oil, but let's try to work together
See you guys soon.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on January 05, 2013, 09:46:05 pm
(Good to see you back. [Insert standard New Year's greeting I don't believe in here.)
Hmmm...would it be wrong of me to ask of what exactly Druid would entail? And why it's outright replacing Scholar?
(Also, what type of Druid, like i.e. D & D True Neutral? Because if it's like those Harry Potter fanfic Druids, there's really only so many skills that can involve nakedness....
Sapphic EDIT: And lipstick "lesbianism". Can't forget that type of "Druidness" either. *roll eyes*)
I'll compile the list of changes at the very least since I was going to do that anyway (and like half of the way too long posts concerning those are mine anyway). The bug fix thing I'd be less helpful for given my "issue" with Excel still, but I already have a way smaller list of those, such as noting that Sand Storm is still causing Stop and not Berserk.
Regardless, I can "easily" have the list done before you start actually working on 139.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Reks on January 05, 2013, 10:19:00 pm
Kinda sad to see Scholars go, but I'm very interested in what Druids might offer.
Can't wait to see!
And sorry, I can't offer much on proposed changes myself. Other than spellguns perhaps being elemental rather than firing magic directly, but Celdia said that giving guns elements doesn't work as it should.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Malroth on January 05, 2013, 10:26:02 pm
What I'd Like to see
Squire: Cheaper MP, JP and CT cost for Ultima Longer range for Wish No CT for Yell
Paladin: +1 MA
Archer: +MP Lower JP cost for all active skills by 50 Lower JP cost for Projectile Guard
Wizard: Increase Cev Lower MP costs Death adds Undead as well as Death Nether fire/ice/bolt/water are not subject to MEV Poison replaced by Oil Innate Magic attack UP
Priest: Add Poles and Books to Equipable Items Increase HP Innate Magic Defend UP Ensuna Can Remove Oil
Time Mage: Add Daggers/Ninjato to equipable items Increase Speed to 10 Innate Shortcharge Increased accuracy on Don't Move/Haste/Slow Lower MP/CT cost on Demi/Demi2
Oracle: Innate Defend UP Give AOE2 to dispel Magic
Summoner: Can equip Harps and Headbands Innate Half of MP
Samurai: Add Books to equipable items Remove Enemy only from Asura Muramasa becomes Water Elemental
Monk: +MA Stigma Magic can remove Oil Equip Headbands added to Martial Arts Innate
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Eternal on January 05, 2013, 10:56:33 pm
Innates on jobs like what you've suggested are a VERY. BAD. IDEA. The issue is that the R/S/Ms you equip stack with innates. Therefore, you could run around with Wizards that have Short Charge that are combined with their Innate: MA Up. That would be absurd, and it'd be totally unbalanced. I used to think giving them innates like that was a good idea, but it just gets ridiculous fast.
My list:
-Spellguns need to be M-EVDable. -Add Cancel: Oil to Esuna. -Give Shields to Time Mages.
There's some other stuff I wanted to discuss, but I'll add that in the balance discussion thread shortly. As for Druids, Reks/Damned, they'll have some existing Lore stuff, but they'll be more focused on Monsters. At least, if FFM is keeping the skillset he and I discussed ages ago.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on January 06, 2013, 12:02:39 am
(Yeah, Innates should be avoided unless there's no real other choice to have the unit be effective with its primary job, as in the case of Mime and Chemist (and Mediator, if Monsters were around). Otherwise, it usually ends up being overpowering.)
Wait, wait. So Monsters are getting involved too finally? Isn't that like a huge change?
Especially since people couldn't even decide on what the hell the basic monster template was going to look like in the monster specific thread that came up some years ago.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Reks on January 06, 2013, 12:06:08 am
Quote from: The Damned on January 06, 2013, 12:02:39 am (Yeah, Innates should be avoided unless there's no real other choice have the unit be effective, as in the case of Mime and Chemist (and Mediator, if Monsters were around). Otherwise, it usually ends up being overpowering )
Wait, wait. So Monsters are getting involved too finally? Isn't that like a huge change?
Especially since people couldn't even decide on what the hell the basic monster template was going to look like in the monster specific thread that came up some years ago.
Unless he'd meant that in Blue-Magic style.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: reinoe on January 06, 2013, 01:00:01 am
I made a general list in the "Balance" thread so that we can hammer things out. It doesn't have everything though.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Barren on January 06, 2013, 02:32:25 am
I don't mind whatever changes that come for 1.39 but my only gripe is Tsumazuku because its a skill that its never used and to me it either needs a change on what it does or we ditch it. 100% Cancel haste is useless considering that a slow, dispel or even just killing the hasted unit period can cancel haste anyways.
I also don't agree with all (some I do however) of Malroth's suggestions because giving priest with magic defend up innate is a bit too powerful; especially when you combine that with lets say 40 brave defense up and either cherche or setiemson or even iron boots if you want to be fancy about it and have it never vulnerable to physical and magical damage. Same with wizards like Eternal said
Priests with books I don't have a problem with though. Black mages should equip daggers like in FF1, not time mages.
Maybe if possible we can add a Blue Mage class to the miss and have it learn monster skills. I'll make a list later if anyone is interested on equips and such
Samurais with books sounds fun but I don't think they need it, just katanas is fine as it is
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Gaignun on January 06, 2013, 02:41:39 am
I'm reposting Raven's rebalanced equipment with a few tweaks that followed later discussions. Armour that is not listed remains as is. All listed armour apart from Golden Hairpin receive buffs. Also, these changes assume that each piece of equipment gets its own attribute space.
HP 120 MP 040 Cross Helmet - No Added Effects. HP 150 MP 000 Grand Helmet - No Added Effects.
HP 160 MP 000 Maximillian - No Added Effects.
HP 070 MP 000 Twist Headband - PA +2. HP 070 MP 000 Holy Miter - MA +2. HP 110 MP 050 Black Hood - No Added Effect. HP 070 MP 030 Golden Hairpin - Strengthen: Holy, Dark.
HP 060 MP 060 Focus Band - Immune: Undead, Charm, Innocent, Faith. HP 040 MP 040 Choice Band - Immune: Dead, Frog, Petrify, Berserk, Sleep, Death Sentence. HP 020 MP 020 Chakra Band - Immune: Poison, Silence, Blind, Slow, Stop, Don't Move, Don't Act, Oil.
HP 120 MP 020 Brigandine - No Added Effects. HP 100 MP 010 Santa Outfit - Absorb: Ice, Wind. HP 100 MP 010 Black Costume - Absorb: Fire, Dark. HP 100 MP 010 Rubber Costume - Absorb: Lightning, Water. HP 090 MP 020 Earth Clothes - Absorb: Earth, Strengthen: Earth. HP 070 MP 000 Secret Clothes - SP +1.
HP 110 MP 050 Silk Robe - No Added Effects.
Power Wrist: increase P-EV to 25 (from 15) Genji Gauntlet: increase M-EV to 25 (from 15) Sprint Shoes: add "Immune: Slow"
Crystal Shield: add "immune: Oil"
And for class-based stuff,
Yell: decrease CT to 0 (from 3). Add a soundbyte that plays Roger Daltrey screaming "YEEAAAAAAAAH" every time it's used. Or Billy Idol singing "Moh, moh, moh." Your choice. Wish: increase range to 3 (from 1)
Receives support skill Defend from Squire
Leg Aim: Reduce JP cost to 100 (from 200) Arm Aim: Reduce JP cost to 250 (from 300) Execute: Reduce JP cost to 150 (from 200) Cover Fire: Reduce JP cost to 250 (from 300)
Regenerator: Make it trigger off of being targeted (like Counter Flood) as opposed to taking HP damage
Flare: reduce MP cost to 40 (from 50)
Haste: increase Y value to 70 (from 60) Haste 2: decrease JP cost to 200 (from 300) Slow: increase Y value to 70 (from 60) Slow 2: decrease JP cost to 200 (from 300) Sinkhole: decrease JP cost to 200 (from 250) Critical Quick: decrease JP cost to 250 (from 300) Chrono Trigger: decrease JP cost to 250 (from 300)
Persuade: increase Y value to 55 (from 45) Preach: increase Y value to 60 (from 45) Solution: increase Y value to 60 (from 45)
Quickening: increase MP cost to 20 (from 15). With hats and clothes getting an MP boost, this is done to prevent "Move-MP UP + Quickening" from being easily used on tanks with huge HP pools. Give Thieves around +5 base MP (on par with Ninja)
Ignore Height: decrease JP cost to 150 (from 300 - there is no way a map-dependent skill that lets its user run away from his/her own party is worth that much JP) Let Lancers equip robes
Last Song: increase Y value to 50 (from 34)
Tsumazuku: change to 4 range, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 10 MP, Dmg_B(SP*WP), Cancel: Haste, Regen. Rename it "Kibaku Fuda" (Exploding Tag). Kagesougi: remove "add: Don't Act" Replace Houkouton with Thief's Heretic. Rename it "Mushin." Houkouton bites the dust. Add new movement skill "Speed +1," which costs 400 JP
Also, there's a general consensus that Time Mages should receive a buff. How, exactly, is still under debate. I wish to make them 8 SP tanks with shields and a wider weapon set so that they can use Balance properly. Others want to bump them up to 10 SP instead.
FFMaster, do you plan to make Druids tanks? If Druids are tanks, then I am fine with giving Time Mages the SP buff and transferring Balance to Druid's skill set.
Edit: Tweaked a few things further.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 06, 2013, 02:51:00 am
Fishing through the Balance thread, grabbing most of the semi-competent suggestions... dear god this is like 300 posts appreciate this you assholes. None of these will be given their context because this is going to take long enough to assemble as it is.
[KNIVES] Throwing Knife - 12 WP Air Knife - 11 WP
[NINJATO] (All of the following should be compatible with both Two Swords and Two Hands.) Hidden Knife - 8 WP. 0% W-EVD, No Element, Always: Transparent, +1 SPD Ninja Knife - 11 WP, 5% W-EVD, No Element, +1 PA Short Edge - 10 WP, 5% W-EVD, No Element, 50% Add: Oil Ninja Edge - 9 WP. 15% W-EVD, No Element, 50% Add: Don't Move Spell Edge - 11 WP, 5% W-EVD, No Element, +1 MA, 100% Cast: Spell Absorb Sasuke Knife - 11 WP, 10% W-EVD, Fire Element, Boost: Earth (Insert Naruto Joke Here) (Make Icon Red) Koga Knife - 11 WP, 10% W-EVD, Earth Element, Boost: Fire Orochimaru Fang - 12 WP, 0% W-EVD, No Element, 50% Add: Blind
[HELMETS] HP 120 MP 040 Cross Helmet - No Added Effects. HP 120 MP 000 Genji Helmet - Initial: Berserk, Immune: Blind. HP 150 MP 000 Grand Helmet - No Added Effects.
[HATS] HP 080 MP 020 Green Beret - Move +1, Jump +1. HP 070 MP 000 Twist Headband - PA +2. HP 070 MP 000 Holy Miter - MA +2. HP 110 MP 050 Black Hood - No Added Effect. HP 060 MP 030 Golden Hairpin - Strengthen: Holy, Dark. HP 080 MP 020 Flash Hat - Initial: Innocent. HP 060 MP 000 Thief Hat - SP +1, Half: Wind, Earth, Water.
[HEADBAND] HP 060 MP 060 Focus Band - Immune: Undead, Charm, Innocent, Faith. HP 045 MP 045 Choice Band - Immune: Dead, Frog, Petrify, Berserk, Sleep, Death Sentence. HP 030 MP 030 Chakra Band - Immune: Poison, Silence, Blind, Slow, Stop, Don't Move, Don't Act, Oil.
[ARMOR] HP 160 MP 000 Maximillian - No Added Effects.
[CLOTHES] HP 080 MP 000 Wizard Outfit - MA +2. HP 120 MP 020 Brigadine - No Added Effects. HP 100 MP 010 Santa Outfit - Absorb: Ice, Wind. HP 080 MP 000 Power Sleeve - PA +2. HP 090 MP 010 Earth Clothes - Absorb: Earth, Strengthen: Earth. HP 070 MP 000 Secret Clothes - SP +1. HP 100 MP 010 Black Costume - Absorb: Fire, Dark. HP 100 MP 010 Rubber Costume - Absorb: Lightning, Water.
[ROBES] HP 110 MP 040 Silk Robe - No Added Effects.
Spin Fist - Fury_PA*9, 6 MP, Evadable/CounterGraspable/CounterFloodable, Self Range 2 Area 0 Vertical, 0 CT, No Element Repeating Fist Fury_PA*10, 8 MP, Unevadable/Uncounterable/CounterFloodable, 1 Range 0 Area 0 Vertical, 0 CT, Water Element, renamed Torrent Fist Wave Fist - Fury_PA*9, 12 MP, Evadable/CounterGraspable/CounterFloodable, 3 Range 0 Area 3 Vertical, 0 CT, Wind Element Earth Slash - Fury_PA*8, 16 MP, Evadable/CounterGraspable/CounterFloodable, 6 Range Linear Area 1 Vertical, 0 CT, Earth Element
Equip Clothes - Gains Headband Access.
[PRIEST] Female Stats Become HP 106 MP 82 PA 6 MA 10 SP 9
[SCHOLAR/DRUID] Only going to note that this class should (imo) be a 9-Speed, Shield-using class with most of Scholar's current equipment options.
Also:
Equip Magegear - Gains Harp Access.
[BARD / DANCER] Fly - Gain "Float" capability, essentially turning Fly into Float 2.0 for a higher JP Cost. (Pokeytax has a random ASM that does this lying around somewhere.)
Oil - Blocks Reactions Berserk - Allows Evasion
If a lot of these look unfamiliar, it's because they're very old suggestions most of you guys buried under the many many mountains of Keyboard Highlander from The Damned and other discussion that quickly got tossed aside the second the newest Arena fad came around. A couple of these are things I slipped in to address things that were brought up but never answered (such as Mantle adjustments to address people who actually do want +PA/MA and +EVD) or come in slightly tweaked forms in reply to some critique that was never answered.
I think the wholly new thing would be my Cursed Glove, which is mostly just a thing to fill the slot that would be kinda cool to have but I'm pretty sure we don't even have Item Attribute room for currently, and the only one that's a bit of true personal fiat is the Magic Gun "solution" - removing the Kaiser Plate synergy while still leaving the Guns themselves strong and compatible with Pilgrimage. Their main thing is that they're strong at the drawback of using Faith on a unit that should probably be running 40 Faith otherwise, so I'd rather preserve that and remove the Kaiser Plate synergy. It also keeps them usable on the widest array of units (something lowering WP wouldn't do) and gives the player the choice of either a fairly strong option without Pilgrimage or a risk-reward setup with Pilgrimage without the 25% bonus from Kaiser Plate making it do laughably high damage.
The only thing missing from this is a "replacement" for the Crystal Shield. With the "Water" Spells being on the Wizard's skillset, Ninjitsu being Wind/Water/Dark, etc., we could potentially bring back Venetian Shield fairly safely, but... eh.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on January 06, 2013, 03:53:15 am
(I'd be up for Blue Mage actually replacing Scholar if Scholar has to die, but that's more because a) I really like Blue Mages, b) we've already been without monsters for two plus years with no one really clamoring for monsters as it is and c) I have no idea what the hell Druid will be.)
So...yeah. Raven has chosen to compile things ahead of me. I'll still probably compile a mass list anyway depending on his format of things, but it will be nice to have another "all-encompassing" list that doesn't have my bias.
I'll still hold off posting my personal list of changes for now, partly because I'm still deciding on some things.
(So the double quotation thing was an error. I thought as much.)
That is unlikely given that there are 16 monsters and only 16 Active Ability spaces in any job, so FFMaster (or Eternal) would have likely just said that Blue Mage was being added instead of a "Druid". Additionally, that would still be a topic of much debate given how widely vanilla monster skills ran the gamut from worthless (i.e. pretty much every monster "Attack" skill that wasn't Triple Attack) to broken [on humans] (i.e. Self-Destruct, Blood Suck, Mind Blast, etc.).
So...yeah. It would be useful to know at least what Druid is aiming for even if we don't get to know what it has before 139 actually comes out, especially if it's causing Scholar to get axed. Scholar dying out of the blue is rather...jarring and I say this as someone who has always been somewhat wary of Lore's hit all spells.
(Yeah, we should probably debate things in the Balance thread.)
Having looked over the list (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=5431.920#msg184423) and not wanting to get in the Raven's way of "compiling" (before Firefox froze on me mid-type), I'll just respond to what I think needs clarifying here (and maybe copy it over into the Balance thread later):
Its fate still is totally up in the air now with Gaignun's proposal even (or perhaps especially) with Scholar dying. The only things that have been "decided" about Time Mage is that its Speed likely needs to change from 9 to either 8 or 10 and its stats need to not be a worse version of Mediator.
Everything else that's been agreed upon with regards to it have actually been either with regards to Time Magic, i.e. the Haste spells could use a small boost in accuracy, or Staves, as we'll go into later.
Yeah, it was pretty much agreed, at least implicitly, that this was going to Ninja if it existed at all.
I think it was actually agreed upon a couple of months ago that aside from Mace of Zeus and maybe Gold Staff, they all aren't worth using. Sure, Wizard Staff is useful too of course, but it's literally a carbon copy of Wizard Rod that only has a value for Priests & Time Mages and even then only really the former; both those classes can still equip C Bags though, so Raven and I have been disagreeing on whether it should die: him against it dying, me for.
I decided to "compromise" a couple of days ago by suggesting that the +2 MA effect move to Healing Staff, which both Raven & I alongside formerdeathcorps and possibly other people had agreed "should" gain Strengthen Dark alongside its Strengthen Holy.
So, basically, the argument about Staves hasn't slipped to the wayside because of Masamune and Spellguns, but rather because no one could really agree what changes to implement to them aside from Rainbow Staff maybe having Block: Oil. (Even that one was is dubious since formerdeathcorps objected to it and Crystal Shield gaining Block: Oil despite Crystal Shield be currently nigh-useless.)
There actually wasn't much debate over Quickening raising cost.
I suggested raising the cost by 5 more MP if it has to stick around since Clothes & Hats will actually have MP options now and Wiz's team has already kind of broken Quickening set-up with the currently less-MP stuff. Literally the only reply to that proposal before Gaignun reaffirmed it above in this was was Raven saying that "Quickening is overrated." That's it. The balance thread is, unfortunately, often lacking in actual discussion about half of the things that end up getting changed; admittedly, I'm sure my wall of texts don't help a lot of the time.
Again, there was literally no feedback on this one way or actual thread. Gaignun supporting it above was the first instance of other. I proposed it and...nothing was said one way or the other.
That said, pretty much all the other Ninja skills were agreed upon:
1. Houkouton dies and an analog maybe goes to Thief as a replacement for Heretic.
2. Heretic gets taken from Thief and goes to Ninja, becoming "Mushin (no Shin)".
3. The elemental -tons become actually differed.
4. Tsumazuku dies and becomes something actually usable and something that be able to counter all of the Masamune (literally) running around, with the exploding tag idea being the most likely.
5. Ninjato get completely overhauled as Raven proposed and I mostly agreed with.
6. Ninja get the Movement skill "Speed +1" if it exists.
I'm pretty sure everyone agreed with Raven's suggestions here, meaning the Slasher becoming usable with Two Swords thing wasn't a joke. It's just for some reason a few people thought it would look visually hilarious, which I'm not really seeing why, but it's not like I get most people's sense of humor.
Shrug.
Everything else has been addressed.
Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on January 06, 2013, 02:51:00 amIf a lot of these look unfamiliar, it's because they're very old suggestions most of you guys buried under the many many mountains of Keyboard Highlander from The Damned and....
(There can only be one!)
Amusingly, I've never seen anything from that franchise save for most of that terrible The Source movie, but I digress.
Thanks for doing this, even if quickly skimming it reveals some more contentious things being there. Like I said though, personal bias is unfortunately inevitable, so multiple comprehensive lists won't hurt.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Dokurider on January 06, 2013, 04:30:22 am
Let's not forget the Monk overhaul. (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=9272.0)
I like the idea of Always: Poison, but +2 PA/MA already has limited applications. The only units that could use +2 MA/PA to it's fullest potential would be Elemental spammers, book users and to a lesser extent, Samurai. Add in Always Darkness, and Samurai and Book Users go away. Furthermore, the boost Cursed Glove would give Elemental would barely be worth the cost of being Poisoned and Blinded. A boost that would barely edge out 108 Gems.
Keep the Always Poison and Immune: Regen, but instead of +2 PA/MA, it can either be +2 PA with +1 SPD or just +2 SPD with Immune: Haste (can't let you go too fast there, Sonic wannabes). Most Mages wouldn't like their +2 MA mixed with +1 SPD, but Draw Out users would.
As for a replacement for Crystal Shield, how about a Cursed Shield? Initial: Poison, Blind, Don't Move, Immune: Poison, Blind, Don't Move, 20 P-Ev/M-Ev.
And know that there is a method behind the madness that is Quickening. (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=9263.0#msg183659)
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Gaignun on January 06, 2013, 04:36:00 am
Quote from: The DamnedKagesougi losing Don't Act
I only included it because I find it extremely difficult to not put a Ninja with Hidden Knife and Kagesougi on my teams. No other build gets to inflict around 200 damage with two free status ailments on the side. By removing Don't Act, people will at least have a chance to heal the damage.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 06, 2013, 05:11:18 am
The Darkness wasn't meant to be there, it was originally gonna do something else and I changed my mind and forgot to pull that off. It was just supposed to be Poison/Regen. The idea is that it's like a 108 Gems that works on everything ever and gives especially good boosts to Books and Geomancy at the cost of being Poisoned. Something simple yet useful.
Adding the Monk Overhaul and the Ninjitsu Overhaul. Don't really care about Kagesougi either way, not gonna lie, but it'll be good either way so it can lose the Don't Act proc for what it's worth.
Also Gaignun, changing the trigger for a Reaction is a lot more skin-grafting agony than you'd be lead to believe.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Eternal on January 06, 2013, 11:30:25 am
From what FFM and I discussed a while back, Druids would have the map-wide Lore skills and abilities that buff/heal monsters and damage monsters. They'd probably be using modified Reis formulae for reference. We discussed moving the Bio spells around (possibly to Wizard), but I have no clue if he's keeping those around at this point.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Otabo on January 06, 2013, 01:32:21 pm
Before I forget, can we please also add an animation for Focus? Is it possible to just give it Accumulate's animation?
Also, if Scholar is leaving, who is getting Tornado and Quake?
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on January 06, 2013, 02:25:14 pm
(What Otabo said.)
*lazy ass finally gets up*
I really need to stop falling asleep at 5:00 A.M.
Quote from: Gaignun on January 06, 2013, 04:36:00 am I only included it because I find it extremely difficult to not put a Ninja with Hidden Knife and Kagesougi on my teams. No other build gets to inflict around 200 damage with two free status ailments on the side. By removing Don't Act, people will at least have a chance to heal the damage.
Yeah, basically. I didn't mean to imply that you said that simply because you were agreeing with me. I was just pointing out that, for whatever reason, you were literally the first and only person to comment on it for...some reason despite Kagesougi regularly destroying people at an average of 200 damage (for a mere 5 MP) as it is.
Kagesougi would still be pretty damn--arguably too damn--powerful as it without Don't Act, which is why I have a couple of suggestions about what to do about that (if so possible with ease) and a slight tweak to Raven's otherwise excellent Ninjato list.
That can wait though.
Quote from: Eternal on January 06, 2013, 11:30:25 am From what FFM and I discussed a while back, Druids would have the map-wide Lore skills and abilities that buff/heal monsters and damage monsters. They'd probably be using modified Reis formulae for reference. We discussed moving the Bio spells around (possibly to Wizard), but I have no clue if he's keeping those around at this point.
I see. We'll I suppose it's "good to know" that the Lore spells aren't dying at all, but that still leaves whatever happens to Mad Science, the Bio spells and Tornado & Quake, all of which were actually useful, up in the air. This especially when, again, no one could decide what the hell "should" happen with Monsters and it's been 2+ years without them yet no one's exactly been clamoring about them.
Also, please clarify a "while back".
Also, Wizard doesn't really have room for but one additional spell and even that would only be after Poison got moved to some other class that actually could use it like Time Mage or Oracle. I wouldn't exactly mind them getting Bio (1) though since they could use a faster spell (that actually does damage), though Bio one having 1 CT with its level of potential power always kinda bugged me. CT 2 seems more "fair".
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Dokurider on January 06, 2013, 05:06:20 pm
I can't get behind adding Undead to Death, it's simply way too much. It's basically Add: Crystal. How about just making Death 1 AoE? The ability to potentially OHKO 2+ units can absolutely reverse the tide of battle.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on January 06, 2013, 06:37:45 pm
(I want to avoid back and forths here where possible since the Balance thread is still open, but....)
Yes, I suppose that AoE 1 Death would be a "better" option even as much I dislike Instant Death, much less AoE Instant Death, since as you say, Undead & Dead is basically Add: Crystal 50% of the time. We already have in the form of Odin after all (and Lava Ball) and I doubt Odin is changing any time soon (unfortunately).
The accuracy would have to drop again though and the MP cost would probably have to go up due to Faith Rod (and Faith UP & Pilgrimage). At least at AoE 1 though the only resurrection that would tell it to screw off would be Fairy rather than literally every form of resurrection.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Eternal on January 06, 2013, 07:32:56 pm
Oh. You mentioned this a while ago, FFM. Priest -> White Mage, Wizard -> Black Mage.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 06, 2013, 07:34:29 pm
We don't want your War of the Lions, go away.
Also, I still don't personally see a reason to edit Death at all. It's a niche skill that fulfills roles of anti-tanking and Undead healing without having to dip from the Wizard primary into Oracle, Time Mage, etc. It's not a primary skill but it has uses. The JP cost could be lowered to better facilitate it being niche, though. 100 JP Death could be lol.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: FFMaster on January 07, 2013, 01:52:23 am
Fuck you all. It's going to be White Priest and Black Wizard now.
Here's a general plan for Druids:
They keep all equipment options that Scholar had, and gain shields. I might make them lose clothes (they are Druids after all).
Stats would be similar to a geomancer, with lower PA and higher HP. I can't decide if 4 Move is a good idea on a mage class though, and most likely will be reduced to 3.
Skillset would be something like this: (numbers subject to change, these are just concepts) - All global Lores, plus Tornado and Quake. -Nature's Wrath (Damage enemies, heal allies, AoE 2) The following skills require the target/targets to have a Support called Inner Beast. It will be innate on Druids and monsters. Other units can purchase it for 100 JP. -Heart of the Wild (Mad Science at 1 AoE, 0 CT, 10 MP) -Cleansing Rain (Removes all negative statii at 1 AoE, 2 CT, 10 MP) -Nature's Boon (Restores the HP of all allied monsters) -Second Chance (Cancel: Death on monsters, 50% heal, global range, 1 AoE)
A few scrapped ideas from me or Eternal: (if you like them or can rework them to be good, mention it) Natural Selection - like the other Lores except remade to always heal allies -Leech Seed (Persevere, drain HP) -Swarm (Haste on all allied monsters) -Wildfire (Fire Elemental Quake/Tornado) -Bestiality (100% Charm on Inner Beast units) -Natural Weapon (+1 Speed/PA/MA to inner beast units)
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: FFMaster on January 07, 2013, 01:53:17 am
YES OH OMNIPRESENT AUTHORITY FIGURE?
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 07, 2013, 02:41:10 am
I thought you didn't want monsters in at all and were only really doing it because Eternal's a harassing bully? :u
Make it Black Priest and White Wizard. Do eet.
I'll comment on the Druid stuff later tonight when I can focus on it better. :p
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Barren on January 07, 2013, 03:44:42 am
I still have a Blue Mage list I can post later this week. Just been busy with work and the SCC Tournament lately.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Gaignun on January 07, 2013, 03:50:36 am
How about Judas Priest and Electric Wizard?
Here are some extra Priest changes pulled out of the balance thread:
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on January 07, 2013, 10:49:19 am
(Those Cure changes seem fair and good.)
Sadly, the White Wizard thing does have historic FF precedent. I doubt that would be different even if Japan was more aware of the Klan.
Anyway, so monsters are going to be in 139? Or is Druid coming in just to pave the way for monsters possibly making their debut in 140 around the middle of the year?
It seems like the latter, which is definitely for the better, but I just want to be sure.
They keep all equipment options that Scholar had, and gain shields. I might make them lose clothes (they are Druids after all).
Dude...I was only joking about the nakedness thing. I wouldn't have if I had known you had actually read Rose Potter.
In all seriousness though, having access to only Robes (& Hats?) would be interesting and I'd "support" it at least initially, if only mostly for the sake of curiosity.
Quote from: FFMaster on January 07, 2013, 01:52:23 am Stats would be similar to a geomancer, with lower PA and higher HP. I can't decide if 4 Move is a good idea on a mage class though, and most likely will be reduced to 3.
4 Move seems like a bad idea for a mage, especially since the Lores should remain slow. At the very most, they should only be as "fast" as 5 CT and I honestly think they should stay at 6 CT.
Really, the only mage that could maybe pull having 4 Move off at present would be Priest and even then that's because a) they already have one instant skill and people seem to agree with them getting another and b) they have the stat-independent Flails. I also probably wouldn't support that since I feel that Priest is easily one of the more powerful mages already.
I'm not sure how I feel about this, partly because I'm not sure how the hell you would make it work uniformly. I'm guessing this would have to have Undead reverse? Or...?
Quote from: FFMaster on January 07, 2013, 01:52:23 am The following skills require the target/targets to have a Support called Inner Beast. It will be innate on Druids and monsters. Other units can purchase it for 100 JP. -Heart of the Wild (Mad Science at 1 AoE, 0 CT, 10 MP) -Cleansing Rain (Removes all negative statii at 1 AoE, 2 CT, 10 MP) -Nature's Boon (Restores the HP of all allied monsters) -Second Chance (Cancel: Death on monsters, 50% heal, global range, 1 AoE)
I put "Heart of the Wild" in bold because it sounds hilariously overpowered. Seriously, Mad Science is already excellent as it is with CT 4, AoE 0 and 20 MP. Now you want to make all of those excellent things better? With the only "cap" being something that's, by necessity, innate to the unit that has the ability as its Primary?
Please excuse me as I unnecessarily laugh like an asshole.
Zehahahahahahahahahahaha....
Really, though, there would be an extremely strong incentive to just make one's team to be two Druids and two tanks with Inner Beast if that happened and then the metagame devolving into trying to beat or stop that.
Please just give Druid "Mad Science" as it is on Scholar now, with no Inner Beast required. Maybe with slightly less CT or even a bit less MP if you want, especially if Paladin's "Reraise" for some reason gets to remain instant; I don't think it should, but more on that later. If it's the "Science" aspect that's bugging you with regards to the name, then either rename it "Mad Hermitage" or, probably better, "Astra".
Otherwise, the three skills look good save for maybe Second Chance having global range. It would easily have to be the most expensive revival MP-wise for me be comfortable with that and even then....
Quote from: FFMaster on January 07, 2013, 01:52:23 am A few scrapped ideas from me or Eternal: (if you like them or can rework them to be good, mention it) Natural Selection - like the other Lores except remade to always heal allies -Leech Seed (Persevere, drain HP) -Swarm (Haste on all allied monsters) -Wildfire (Fire Elemental Quake/Tornado) -Bestiality (100% Charm on Inner Beast units) -Natural Weapon (+1 Speed/PA/MA to inner beast units)
Put in bold because...eww. Sadly, that one is the probably the second most salvageable of these five, however niche. It's only behind "Wildfire", since there's no real Melt analog, though I'm not sure there needs to be. After all, "Wildfire" would kind of step on the Fire spells toes since the already focus on AoE as it is and an AoE 3 Fire spell isn't even "unique" because of Salamander, so I'm not exactly thrilled about that one despite it being "the best". Additionally, Ifrit is already one of the lesser used Summons.
Still, "Wildfire" could probably work if Tornado and Quake can. It's just a question of if it would improve anything.
With regards to fires, "Swarm" and especially "Natural Weapon" can go die in one.
I'm not sure how I feel about "Leech Seed". It could potentially be interesting and like many people here I don't mind a good Pokemon reference, but Life Drain and Wiznaibus already see relatively little use as it is....
As for "Natural Selection", I'm guessing if that made it in, then "Nature's Wrath" wouldn't. Is that correct? Regardless, "Nature's Wrath" seems fairer...probably.
All that said, I feel better about Druid now knowing what the hell it's supposed to be, so thanks. This means that I can plan my suggestions for Time Mage finally....
No need to hurry, Barren. Especially since there's not really any class to even replace Blue Mage with.
Well, that's not true. Mediator or, "preferably", even Lancer could be exchanged with a Blue Mage (that had Jump), though either of those seems too controversial at present to make it into 139 given the huge nature of the debate that would probably go on over it. This when Scholar is dying and there's already so much else asking to be changed.
Still, feel free to go for it.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Dokurider on January 07, 2013, 03:30:41 pm
Quote...I think is the first time I've ever seen you curse.
*pauses and puts hand over where a normal person's heart would be*
...I'm so proud. I...I think I'm getting something in my eye....
*turns away and sniffles*
Drop by IRC sometime. He swears plenty.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Eternal on January 07, 2013, 03:31:41 pm
I don't see why Blue Mage is even being brought up since 1) We don't need more than one monster-based job, and 2) If Blue Mages meant having to have their skillset learnt mid-battle by being hit, I can't see how that'd be useful. It'd be fun seeing Dragoons get a proper skillset with Hit: Dragon stuff in addition to Jump... somehow. I'm allowed to dream!
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Barren on January 07, 2013, 04:06:29 pm
Well when I complete that list you all can debate if its indeed needed or not.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: FFMaster on January 07, 2013, 04:24:43 pm
I've already tried Eternal. It has never worked =(
Also, don't worry about the Heal allies/hurt enemies skill. I've already got a working hack for it. It will always heal allies and always hurt enemies, regardless of the circumstances. And yes, the original Heal/Harm is the new Natural Selection I scrapped. From the minimal testing I did, it was like having a Wiznaibus and a Life Song rolled into 1 skill.
Monsters will likely come in a few versions after. 139 WILL be a very shaky version in terms of balance.
Random extra notes from my brain: - I'm currently considering trying to make a hack that will remove the longbow height penalties. That would probably fix all our problems with regards to map balance. - Is there any way to make Mediator not just Refute/Insult/Mimic Daravon without stepping on Oracles too much? - I plan to make Oil affect all elements, and not be removable on elemental hit. This means you need to remove it using Holy Water/Stigma/Esuna/Cleansing Rain(if that idea passes). Maybe Heal as well. There are some weird mechanics about it being removable on hit and I would rather keep mechanics simpler. Right now, when you remove Oil, you can't add statii at the same time, so weapons/abilities that have an element and add status will never add status on an Oiled unit. - Cure reworks look good, I'd probably swap the animations for Cure 3/4 around though, to fit better. - Wish will go up to 7% heal. This will give 1 turn if the unit is poisoned. - If we really want a Sasuke Knife, we need a Raikiri to pair with it(Naruto joke)
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on January 07, 2013, 08:48:52 pm
(As a heads up, I'll probably post my personal list of suggestions tomorrow morning.)
*is still trying to think over those Druid skills*
I just realized something: when you said "a Geomancer, with lower PA and higher HP", how "high" are we talking about here?
I ask because Geomancer already has among the higher starting HP totals and I'm really not sure I want another MA-based/mage unit surpassing Oracle's HP considering that having the highest HP of mages is one of the few sure things Oracle has. This is possibly even more of an issue since Druids would have all of Oracle's equipment option + Swords + Shields. Druids possibly losing Clothes and being nudists aside from (loose) Robes doesn't seem like it would keep them from screwing over Oracle when that's already a potential worry in changing Mediator.
"Lower PA" is less of problem partly because I can't see it dropping below 5 on female Druids and partly because quite a few Swords have a bunch of secondary effects that are relatively independent of PA anyway.
But...yeah, Druids don't have to just compare to Geomancers here, even if that's a nice reference.
Quote from: FFMaster on January 07, 2013, 04:24:43 pm Random extra notes from my brain: - I'm currently considering trying to make a hack that will remove the longbow height penalties. That would probably fix all our problems with regards to map balance.
This is unnecessary. Height penalties and advantage are a part of Longbows and help them distinguish themselves just like movement penalties and such help differentiate terrain. Considering what little height difference most maps have, I don't see why this needs to change. If anything needs to change where this might actually be a problem (when it comes to starting position), then the map either needs to be edited or just outright banned.
Well, first and foremost, Blackmail & Death Sentence are also worth using when it comes to Talk Skill. So really the only "problems" are the AI not using Persuade, Preach & Solution and maybe Insult; the AI not whoring Persuade is still weirding me out, but whatever.
Well, that and Refute not needing to get rid of Charging & Performing on top of everything else. Insult is kind of a problem and Wiz has at least something of a point about it and perhaps Refute as well. I'm not really convinced Insult needs to die just yet though.
Would it be possible for you to give Berserk Reflect's old CT since Reflect isn't using it anymore? Admittedly, that would kind of screw over Salty Rage and Genji Helmet. Pretty much no one is using either of those presently though. Salty Rage dying would make room for one of Raven's items, neither of which I'm sure about still, without items that people actually use, i.e. Power Wrist & Genji Gauntlet, having to die.
But, yeah, making more of Mediator's skills useful without obviating Oracle seems doable.
Seems.
Quote from: FFMaster on January 07, 2013, 04:24:43 pm - I plan to make Oil affect all elements, and not be removable on elemental hit. This means you need to remove it using Holy Water/Stigma/Esuna/Cleansing Rain(if that idea passes). Maybe Heal as well. There are some weird mechanics about it being removable on hit and I would rather keep mechanics simpler. Right now, when you remove Oil, you can't add statii at the same time, so weapons/abilities that have an element and add status will never add status on an Oiled unit.
DO NOT WANT.
The reason I put that interesting last sentence in bold is because I specifically want to ask something: Is that really enough of a problem to warrant causing silly stuff like Demi 2 becoming AoE Death with this change? Similarly, is it a big enough problem to warrant basically necessitating the every team either run Oil, block Oil or be able to heal it (even though most Oil units are murdered horribly within a turn of being Oiled anyway)?
Because if it is, then weakness is probably going to have to be changed from 2x to 1.5x and even then I'm not really comfortable with that.
(Yes, I'm aware this seem massively hypocritical since I asked you about doing this with regards to Fire element for my patches, but there's a reason I asked you about Halving, Null & different elemental canceling aspects....)
Meh. Raven's Ninjato suggestion already made a name space for Sasuke's molestor. Let's not weeaboo up that weapon category if we can, shall we? [/taking your joke seriously just in case]
Also, don't worry about the Heal allies/hurt enemies skill. I've already got a working hack for it. It will always heal allies and always hurt enemies, regardless of the circumstances. And yes, the original Heal/Harm is the new Natural Selection I scrapped. From the minimal testing I did, it was like having a Wiznaibus and a Life Song rolled into 1 skill.
Monsters will likely come in a few versions after. 139 WILL be a very shaky version in terms of balance.
Random extra notes from my brain: - If we really want a Sasuke Knife, we need a Raikiri to pair with it(Naruto joke)
- Is there any way to make Mediator not just Refute/Insult/Mimic Daravon without stepping on Oracles too much?
I think the Oracle abilities should hit at a higher percentage. Oracle secondaries have a high MP cost and I don't see them as a threat (except silence)". Also compare Charm vs Beguile. Beguile has an MP cost, a very high ct for what it does, and can be blocked or reflected.
- I plan to make Oil affect all elements, and not be removable on elemental hit. This means you need to remove it using Holy Water/Stigma/Esuna/Cleansing Rain(if that idea passes). Maybe Heal as well. There are some weird mechanics about it being removable on hit and I would rather keep mechanics simpler. Right now, when you remove Oil, you can't add statii at the same time, so weapons/abilities that have an element and add status will never add status on an Oiled unit.
I'm fine with making Oil a threat. As an aside I'm also fine with Insult having it's high percentage even though a berzerk status is game over for spellcasters. What berzerk needs is more than just Echo Grass curing it. There's some good magical prevention though.
- Wish will go up to 7% heal. This will give 1 turn if the unit is poisoned.
Can it get a range of 3?
- I'm currently considering trying to make a hack that will remove the longbow height penalties. That would probably fix all our problems with regards to map balance. The longbow height penalty is practically non-existant. The only times where height penalties are apparent is one or two maps and that's only when it comes to being disadvantaged at the start. T.D. hit the nail on the head, Tiger gives a player a height disadvantage at the start of the map. But really I haven't seen any others that have height balance. Furthermore players should be able to utilize height advantage with Longbows via Ignore Height, Fly, or Teleport. Oh yeah, and that giant globe thing in Besrodio's house. That should get fixed too.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Gaignun on January 07, 2013, 11:43:04 pm
I'm with The Damned on Oil. Demi2 was made nicely useable in 1.38. Turning it into a Death spell with Oil is troubling. There are ways to prevent this, though:
1) Change weakness modifiers from 2x to 1.5x, or 2) make Demi non-elemental
My vote is for option 1, because option 1 also
1) indirectly buffs elemental shields and Cursed Ring, and 2) nerfs Oil + magic gun combos
Also, is making Oil persist past elemental damage for the sake of the few skills that are elemental and inflict status ailments a good idea? Persistent Oil sounds broken to me, considering that it's also been proposed to lock reaction abilities, as well.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Dokurider on January 08, 2013, 04:23:45 am
I would prioritize making Wish 3 range over trying to make it outdo Poison. The range boost alone would make it a worthy revival option in my eyes, making it Phoenix Down without the need for Throw Item.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on January 09, 2013, 01:23:45 am
(I concur, though I don't think that FFMaster was discounting adding range to Wish.)
Ugh. I finally finished this damn thing after thinking about it since yesterday and the rest of today being a wash anyway. Hurray.
These are my Personal Suggestions for ARENA, though not all of them are my creation of course. So, of course, some more controversial things are intentionally here, especially since I only decided on a lot of these hours ago and while I was typing this up over the past several hours.
I'll fix any typos later:
[SQUIRE] 1. Yell's CT decreases from 3 to 0. 2. Alacrity gets formally renamed Focus, since that's what everyone is calling it anyway, and gets shares Accumulate's animation. 3. Squire loses "Equip Clothing" Support, which goes to Monk. 4. Wish, at the very least, gets a range increase from 1 to 3. It could also do with an HP or accuracy boost to further differentiate itself from Revive, even if this means it might end up costing a bit of MP unlike Revive. 5. If anything else yet not everything is to cure Oil besides Holy Water & Refute, then Heal should be the only addition. 6. Ultima's JP cost decreases from 350 to 300. 7. Squire loses "Defend" Support, which goes to Chemist.
[CHEMIST] 1. Chemist gains "Defend" Support from Squire.
[PALADIN] 1. Consecration's JP cost decreases from 300 to 250. 2. Reraise's CT increases from 0 to 2. 3. Reraise's JP cost increases from 100 to 150. 4. Paladin loses "Move -1" Movement, which goes to Mediator.
[ARCHER] 1. Leg Aim's JP cost is reduced from 200 to 150 JP. 2. Seal Evil's JP cost is reduced from 200 to 150 JP. 3. Execute's JP cost is reduced from 200 to 100 JP. 4. Cover Fire's formula changed to something (a lot) less "swing-y" when it comes to its overall damage range. 5. Projectile Guard's JP cost is reduced from 300 to 250 JP. 6. Hawk's Eye's MP cost increases from 8 to 10. 7. Archer gets at least +2 MP across the board.
[MONK] 1. Monk gains all the changes decided upon in the Monk Overhaul thread with regards to Spin Fist, Repeating Fist, Wave Fist & Earth Slash. 2. Monk gains the "Equip Clothes" Support from Squire.
[PRIEST] 1. The Cure changes just discussed and agreed upon take place with regards to Cure, Cure 3 and Cure 4. 2. The spell Protect's Vertical increases from 0 to 1. 3. The spell Shell's Vertical increases from 0 to 1. 4. The spell Wall's MP decreases from 25 to 20 and its CT decreases from 3 to 2. 5. Holy's X decreases from 16 to 15. 6. Priest's Speed increases from 8 to 9. 7. Priest's MP decreases by 5. 8. Male Priest's PA decreases from 8 to 7.
[WIZARD] 1. Death's JP cost decreases from 200 to 150. 2. Flare's MP cost decreases from 50 to 40. 3. Wizard loses Poison spell to Time Mage. 4. Wizard gains composite Bio spell: Old Bio 2 stats except it costs 15 MP, is F(MA*8), has 150 JP and adds Poison instead of Frog (and is actually susceptible to Reflect).
[TIME MAGE] 1. Haste's X increases from 60 to 70. 2. Haste 2's X increases from 100 to 110. 3. Haste 2's JP cost decreases from 300 to 250. 4. Slow 2's JP cost decreases from 300 to 250. 5. Comet's JP cost decreases from 150 to 100 and becomes susceptible to Counter Magic (but not Counter Flood). 6. Stop's MP cost increases from 14 to 16. 7. Time Mage loses Balance, which goes to Oracle. 8. Time Mage gains Poison, which it gains from Wizard. 9. Critical Quick's JP cost decreases from 300 to at most 250. 10. Chrono Trigger's JP cost decreases from 300 to at least 250. 11. Time Mage gains "Equip Magegear" Support from now defunct Scholar. 12. Time Mage's Speed increases from 8 to 10. 13. Time Mage's HP increases by (at least) 10. 14. Time Mage's MP increases by 5. 15. Time Mage's C-EV increases from 5% to 10%.
[SUMMONER] No suggested changes at present.
[THIEF] 1. Thief loses Heretic, which goes to Ninja. 2. Bad Luck's CT decreases from 4 to 3, MP cost decreases from 9 to 8, status infliction becomes Random rather than Separate (?), loses Dead, Oil & Slow aspects, is no longer susceptible to Counter Magic and gains the ability to proc Death Sentence, Don't Move or Don't Act. 3. Quickening dies in a fire and is then taken out back and shot for good measure before being buried in an unmarked grave. That or at the very, very, very least it has its MP cost increased from 15 to at least 20. 4. Power Ruin's JP cost decreases from 200 to 150. 5. Mind Ruin's JP cost decreases from 200 to 150. 6. Thief's MP increases by at least 1.
[MEDIATOR] 1. Persuade becomes single-target Add: Stop, its X becomes 40 and its JP cost increases from 100 to 300. 2. Solution becomes Cancel: All Negative statuses and its JP cost increases from 100 to 200 JP. 3. Refute loses Charging & Performing & its ability to Cancel: All Negative statuses, becoming Cancel: All Positive statuses, and its JP cost decreases from 300 to 200 JP. 4. Insult's X decreases from 55 to 50. 5. Mediator gains "Move -1" Movement from Paladin. 6. Mediator's HP decreases by about 10. 7. Mediator's C-EV increases from 5% to 10%.
[ORACLE] 1. Beguile's CT decreases from 5 to 4 and its MP cost decreases from 20 to 16. 2. Dispel Magic's AoE increases from 0 to 1. 3. Paralyze's X decreases from 60 to 55 and its JP cost increases from 100 to 150. 4. Sleep's CT increases from 4 to 5, its MP cost decreases from 24 to 20 and its X increases from 60 to 65. 5. Oracle gains Balance from Time Mage, which remains the same except that its JP decreases from 300 to 250 and its CT increases from 2 to 3. 6. Oracle's HP increases by 10. 7. Oracle's MP increases by at least 5. 8. Male Oracle's PA increases from 7 to 8.
[GEOMANCER] 1. Geomancer's C-EV decreases from 10% to 5%.
[LANCER] 1. Lancer's C-EV increases from 5% to 10%. 2. Lancer's MA increases by 1. 3. Lancer gets back (?) access to Robes.
[SAMURAI] 1. Bizen Boat becomes subject to M-EV. 2. Murasame's X decreases from 10 to 9.
[NINJA] 1. Tsumazuku dies and Ninja gets something that's worth using, that it will actually use and that will still at least cancel Haste. 2. Shuriken's MP decreases from 10 to 8. 3. Meiton, Fuuton & Suiton differ as per Raven's suggestions. 4. Houkouton dies (or goes to Thief in some form). 5. Kagesougi's MP cost increases from 5 to at least 8 and it loses its ability to cause Don't Act. 6. Ninja gains Thief's Heretic, which is renamed "Mushin (no Shin)".
[DRUID] 1. Apparently replaces Scholar. 2. Gets Mad Science as Scholar currently has it, except with CT 3 and renamed "Astra"; Heart of the Wild becomes unnecessary. 3. Should probably get a fourth Inner Beast-linked ability with "Heart of the Wild" "dead". I'm not sure about what it should be though at present. 4. Loses "Equip Magegear" Support, which goes to Time Mage. 5. Its MA is, at most, 11 so that it doesn't go back to having basically Wizard+ stats.
[BARD] 1. Last Song's accuracy increases from 34% to 40%.
[DANCER] 1. Wiznaibus's JP cost decreases from 200 back to 100. 2. Last Dance's accuracy increases from 34% to 40%.
[BARD & DANCER] 1. Brave UP's JP cost decreases from 200 to 100.
[AMBIVALENT ABOUT] 1. Equip Polearms Getting Cloths: I suppose I can understand the idea since they're all Range 2 weapons and Cloths are currently exclusive to Dancer. Thing is, though, that Persia & Cashmere are inferior to Ryozan Silk in much the same fashion that Lamia Harp & Fairy Harp are inferior to Bloody Strings. Unlike Bloody Strings though, which I have an idea about how to "fix", nothing comes to me on how to fix Persia & Cashmere. This especially since Ryozan Silk is not absorbing HP and Dancer already had more damaging options even before Swords' arguably unnecessary overhaul. Similarly, given everything else that's being asked to be changed right now, I don't really feel like thinking of Cloth changes right now.
2. Speed +1 Movement: I really don't care if this exists or not to be honest. If it does, then I "support" Ninja getting it and it costing at least 400 JP.
3. Slow and the Protects & Shells Getting X increases: I don't really see these as necessary, but I'm not strictly against it. I AM against Regen getting a buff though, or at least one so huge, even with having to compete with Regenerator, Nurse & Masamune and Light Robe & P Bag.
4. Druid Having 9 Speed: I have to see what it's other stats are, really.
5. Druid getting Wildfire: I've come to realize that it probably wouldn't be hurt anyone other spell, even Ifrit, for Druid to get it. Still, it's not like Druid needs it.
6. Geomancer's Sand Storm being "fixed": Right now it's still causing Stop, which I'm not sure how to feel about between Sand Storm rarely showing up, Berserk being up in the air and not really being a fan of Stop on Hell Ivy presently.
[UNDECIDED ABOUT] 1. Tsumazuku's Replacement: What exactly replaces Tsumazuku is something I'm unsure about when it comes to details as seems to be pretty much everyone else outside of it possibly having AoE and probably having the form of an Exploding Tag. Of course, where that idea now stands if Dispel Magic is made AoE 1....
2. Houkouton still existing in some form: Or rather if Thief should get a Houkouton-esque Replacement for losing at least Heretic. I wouldn't really be sure of what do with it outside of maybe make it Fire element.
3. Titan: Not sure if Titan should possibly see a bit of improvement given how, despite its power, it's one of the least used Summons. Only thing that I could think would maybe to reduce its MP use to 20 since it "only" hits AoE 2 unlike Leviathan & Salamander but it is still avoidable like them. Anything else seems like it might cause it start becoming overpowered though.
4. If Druids Should Keep Rods: On the one hand, half of the Rods are going to obviated just by Kaiser Plate and there being four other weapon options besides Wizard Rod that add +2 MA. On the other hand, it would be nice to see the Rods get some close-up action again. That Rods would be a unit that wouldn't exactly be squishy and would have a Shield would greatly help that. On the other hand, (female) Squires can already do that and most them aren't being used to do that, so....
5. Equip Clothes Getting Ribbons/Headbands: Even with Headbands getting overall reduced in power, I'm not all that comfortable with this. I feel like this would necessitate a JP boost, for one thing, and I'd be more comfortable with first changing Ribbons and seeing how the new ones function on Monks before letting them "out". Then again, I do "feel" that Ribbons should maybe able to be universally equipped.... I'm conflicted partly because of the next point of indecision.
6. Equip Magegear Getting Harps: Even with the "fix" I'm going to propose for Bloody Strings, I've come to realize that Madlemgen and Lamia Harp are too much alike for my comfort for them to both be on the same "Equip" thing. This even though Harps are MA*WP and Books are (PA+MA)/2*WP. Normally, this wouldn't be a huge enough problem for me deny that Harps should go on to Equip Magegear by itself. However, considering how there are only three Harps and only four Books, two of them being so similar seems kind of like a big deal and, at present, I don't have any good ideas about what to do to "fix" one or the other.
7. Lancer & Samurai HP: Initially, I was going to suggest that Lancer perhaps lose 10 HP and Samurai gain 10 HP since Lancer is "supposed" to be the more evasive tank to me. This compared to (male) Samurai being "stuck" on-screen and getting relatively up close aside from Kikuichimoji. However, Samurai has self-healing even with Murasame and possibly Masamune getting nerfed whereas Lancer naturally doesn't, though it does have Jump, Shields and Dragon Spirit to avoid dying, so.... Currently I'm leaning towards their HP staying the same because I'm unsure about something else.
8. Masamune & perhaps Chirijiraden change: I still feel that something has to be done with Masamune; I'm just not sure what that is. Similarly not sure what to do about Chirijiraden or, unlike Masamune, if even needs to be changed. I'd put Kiyomori here since I still think it sucks in most instances, but that's not as much of problem even with the AI being dumb about it; so many people just need stop using it if they can't tank for shit.
(Double) Forgetful EDIT: I swear am an idiot. Finally remembered these two as well.
9. Battle Song & Magic Song going back to 50%: I still don't see why these were buffed when even after the Fist formula fix in the case of the former they still remained useable. It just seems really unnecessary. The only reason it's here as undecided is because no one else seems ot have a problem with it for some reason, so....
10. Changing Preach: Under my Mediator suggestions, I had contemplated changing Preach alongside Solution since I've never seen the AI use either. I vaguely recall formerdeathcorps saying that he has though. So the reason I decided to kill only Solution is because Heretic going to a class that can and will actually make use of it makes Solution redundant. Meanwhile, no skill would remain that could potentially add Faith, though perhaps one doesn't need to, even (or perhaps especially) if the AI actually did use it.... But, yeah, killing Preach (or Mediator) could probably wait until 140 anyway.
[KNIVES] 1. Throwing Knife's WP increases from 10 to 12 and maybe its Death Sentence proc decreases from 33% to 25%. 2. Dual Cutter's WP increases from 7 to 8. 3. Repel Knife's WP decreases from 9 to 7 and it actually adds both Don't Act and Haste at the same time or nothing at all instead of the Separate things it's doing now. 4. Mage Masher either keeps the 100% Bizen Boat proc it has now (despite what it says in the Master Guide presently) and its WP decreases from 9 to 8 or it goes back to the 50% Bizen Boat it "should" be and its WP increases from 9 to 10. 5. Air Knife's WP decreases from 13 to 11 and loses its ability to cause Sleep, which it isn't causing anyway. For now, I suppose it's fine that it remains Two Hands if it's not already the strongest by default (before Strengthen).
[NINJATO] (I agree with all of Raven's changes except for slight changes to the following two items:) 1. Ninja Knife's WP decreases from 11 to 9 since Kagesougi's powerful enough without its best Ninjato, sans Hidden Knife, buffing it and having the most WP. 2. Ninja Edge's WP increases from 9 to 11 since it has to compete with Kagesougi still causing Don't Move as it is.
[SWORDS] 1. Phoenix Blade's W-EV decreases from 25% to 20% and it loses Immune: Dead. 2. Parry Edge's WP increases from 9 to 10 and its W-EV increases from 20% to 25%. 3. Platinum Sword's W-EV increases from 10% to 15%. 4. Ice Brand's WP decreases from 14 to 13 and its chance of casting Ice 2 increases from 25% to 33%.
[KNIGHT SWORDS] (I agree with all of Raven's changes, even if I'm a bit...unsure about Save the Queen and Ragnarok being Always. Still, they do need improvements and I've always wanted Defender to be more appealing, so....)
[KATANA] 1. Asura Knife's WP decreases from 10 to 9. 2. Bizen Boat's WP increases from 9 to 10.
[AXES] 1. Battle Axe's W-EV decreases from 30% to 25% W-EV, "Decapitate"'s damage decreases from 85% TarMaxHP to 50% TarMaxHP and gets renamed "Maim". 2. Giant Axe's WP decreases from 10 to 9. 3. Slasher's W-EV decreases from 30% to 20% and it becomes usable with Two Swords.
[RODS] No suggested changes at present.
[STAVES] 1. White Staff's WP increases from 7 to 8 and it becomes Holy Elemental. 2. Healing Staff's W-EV increases from 10% to 20% and gains Strengthen: Dark & Speed +1 in addition to Strengthen: Holy. (Possible renames: Chaos Staff, Cosmos Staff, Priest Staff, etc.) 3. Rainbow Staff's WP decreases from 10 to 7 and gains Block: Oil & +2 MA. 4. Wizard Staff's loses +2 MA, becomes Dark Element, gains the ability to cast at 50% the spell Harm (basically Dark element version of Dia, except with a 20% chance to Silence) and gets renamed Black Staff. 5. Gold Staff's WP increases from 8 to 10 and its W-EV increases from 10% to 15%.
[FLAILS] No suggested changes at present.
[GUNS] 1. Romanda Gun's WP decreases from 10 to 8. 2. Mythril Gun's WP increases from 8 to 10. 3. Blaze Gun's WP increases from 13 to 14, becomes Forced Two Hands and switches to casting Nether Fire. 4. Glacier Gun's WP increases from 12 to 13, becomes Forced Two Hands and switches to casting Nether Ice. 5. Blast Gun's WP increases from 11 to 12, becomes Forced Two Hands and switches to casting Nether Bolt.
[CROSSBOW] 1. Silencer's WP increases from 10 to 12. 2. Poison Bow's WP decreases from 12 to 10.
[LONGBOWS] 1. Silver Bow gains +2 MA or at least +1 MA.
[HARPS] 1. Ramia Harp finally gets renamed to Lamia Harp please. 2. Bloody Strings gets its WP decreased from 12 to 8 or 9.
[BOOKS] No changes decided upon at present (though something may need to happen to Madlemgen).
[SPEARS] I agree with Raven's changes though I recall that you (FFMaster) had already said that you had an idea of how to "fix" Holy Lance, so....
[STICKS] No suggested changes at present.
[BAGS] No suggested changes at present.
[CLOTHS] No changes decided upon at present.
[SHIELDS] 1. Crystal Shield dies for being basically useless except with Cursed Ring and...something takes its place. 2. Venetian Shield officially gets renamed in the Master Guide Zephyr Shield since that's what most people are calling it and that's what it seems to show as in the spreadsheet or something.
[ARMOR] Given I helped come up with the proposed changes Raven's post and I don't really mind him "covertly" increasing Choice Band and Chakra Band's HP and MP higher (and Chakra Band's immunities), I overall agree with them. Chakra Band might block too many things for my taste ultimately, but meh, that can change in 140 I guess. Genji Helmet might need to be changed considering what I'm asking about/proposing for Berserk.
[ACCESSORIES] Upon seeing Raven's edit, I agree with his changes...though Salty Rage might need to be changed as with Genji Helmet. He forgot a couple of proposals that formerdeathcorps suggested, though may be because he disagreed with them; I don't: 1. Defense Ring loses Absorb: Water & Gains Null: Ice. 2. Jade Armlet loses Null: Ice & Gains Absorb: Water. (I'd suggest calling this Coral Armlet, but that might just be me.)
[AMBIVALENT ABOUT] 1. Monster Dict getting renamed to Bestiary: ...Basically exactly what it says really. It's a shorter and less ridiculous (or potentially dirty-sounding) name, but no one has really commented on it, perhaps because it's the least-used Book. Then again, I am pretty much the only person to kvetch about thing's names, so....
2. Long Bow Getting +1 Move: I don't remember this being brought up before Raven's "complied" post in this thread to be honest. I'm not against it, I'm just not sure it's necessary and I say this as someone who likes Longbows and was annoyed about Long Bow being so overshadowed. Still, I suppose it getting it wouldn't hurt anything....
3. "De-weeaboo"'ing Ninjato: If anyone gets tired of the Naruto jokes, then we can just rename Sasuke Knife Iga Knife and truncate Orochimaru Fang to Orochi Fang. I don't really care one way or the other though.
[UNDECIDED ABOUT] 1. Phoenix Blade Getting Immune: Critical: I can see what Raven's aiming for, but I still don't really agree with it since Phoenix Blade is powerful (read: obnoxious) enough as it is. This is partly if only because I'm not sure if such a thing would make the AI act weird(er) or even dumb(er), especially if Phoenix Blade got broken.
2. Tactican's Blade getting 15% W-EV: I briefly considered this before deciding to suggest that poor Platinum Sword got that amount instead since way too many of the already buffed Swords are sitting at 10% W-EV. That and Tactican's Blade is basically made for getting in your opponent's face unless you have Teleport (or Flee). With swords already getting so many arguable buffs though and +1 Move & Jump being rather useful, this probably isn't necessary...
3. Potentially Boosting Shieldrender's abilities: This would only be considered if the hack that "fixes" the Break skills and makes them not turn into Attacks if the target is missing that piece of equipment. This would thus likely need some type of boost unlike Bow Gun, which would still have Range 4 even after Armor Break went off. When combined with swords as a whole already being buffed and not being what type of boost would be "adequate"...yeah.
4. Battle Axe's Maim proc becoming 33%: At present, Battle Axe is overpowering when it goes off. If it went off under Maim, then it would still be more than decent, but I'm not sure if it would be..."enough". Also, I don't want to make it automatically "useless" for 40 Brave units; I just want to make it not abuseable to the point it's a "last long enough to OHKO" thing where it basically is now. Maim staying at 25% might be enough though considering Battle Axe's actual attack can do quite a good bit of damage (which is what was part of the problem with ). Shrug.
5. Giant Axe "merely" decreasing in WP: At present, it's at least no longer equal to Slasher in power due to self-strengthen, but it's still barely below. Also, it has to retain the 30% evasion since it makes sense for the overall harder hitting (with proc) Battle Axe to have a decrease in W-EV and if Slasher is be usable with Two Swords, it sure as hell can't keep 30%. Slasher similarly can't get 25% since then it obviates Parry Edge even after the buff despite Axes' fluctating damage; as it is now, Slasher kinda obviates Platinum Sword, though more people get Swords and Platinum Sword's damage is stable. I couldn't really think of anything else though that wasn't drastic and I think that Giant Axe is mostly fine and good as it is now in 138; it just needs not to obviate potentially using Slasher.
6. Lamia Harp vs. Madlemgen: As stated under the Class suggestions, this is something of a stickler for me when it comes to Equip Magegear getting Harps now. It's both a sticking point because I only just realized it while thinking about & typing up this list and because I can't think of a solution for this. The best I can think would be to change Madlemgen's Stop to Sleep or Death Sentence since Lamia Harp, due to regularly having more power on mages, should have the "less serious" Stop. I'm not sure I'm really comfortable with either of those though; Sleep makes feel more "uncomfortable" though. Only other thing I could think of would maybe changing Lamia Harp to 33% or even 50% Poison, but Poison Bow and Poison Rod already exist, so meh.
7. Making Persia & Cashmere Useful: I think I've personally used both...a while ago, but they have to compete with way too many things as it is and now Save the Queen & Ragnarok are getting seemingly necessary buffs. Unlike the Knight Swords though, there's no way in hell these should become Always unless maybe they're Forced and even then that's rather undesirable and seems lazy. Yet like the two weapons above, I can't decide on how to "fix" them. Initially, I was just going to leave them until 140 like Knight Swords and Ninjato, but if we're going for broke...then, yeah, something should probably done to be done. The "best" I've got at present is giving Persia +2 PA and Cashmere +2 MA in addition to Initial: Protect & Initial: Shell respectively. And, like with Lamia Harp vs. Madlemgen, that seems rather crappy.
8. What to do with Crystal Shield's spot: I don't agree with Dokurider's Cursed Shield at all. I find it interesting to a degree, but it's ultimately rather boring since there's no way in hell you aren't using Stigma Magic or Esuna (or Refute/Solution) with that thing. That both of those get rid of all three negative statuses on his proposal at once is meh. At least with Petrify Gun, the Unit misses its own turn in addition to having to be cured, which makes half your team miss its turn. Making a shield like Petrify Gun also isn't a solution because that's still boring. At present, I think the best thing to do would be to make a Shield's a Water/Wind/Earth version of Kaiser Plate. Even that's "boring" and a role already fulfilled by a few weapons however. So...yeah. I'm Alicia Silverstone here, especially since I'm kind of undecided if the "real" best thing to do would be to make a Shield that was Immune: Blind (NOT as a change to Genji Shield) given Grand Cross.
9. Genji Helmet & Salty Rage: These might need to change if Berserk can be given a finite CT, though I suppose they would still be somewhat useful if they were Immune: Blind now.
10. Defense Armlet: Despite it being immune to Fire, Don't Move & Don't Act, this is easily among the least used accessories. I know that something has to be least used, but there seems to be relatively little incentive to use this even with Shield weaknesses, Fire generally having the most AoE and Don't Act being a rather serious status. I'm sure part of it is that Ice Absorb generally tends to be the least used type of Absorption (for some reason) and thus there's not as much incentive to use Ice Shield; incidentally, this is why Defense Ring getting Null: Ice seems fine/better. On top of that, if Natural Wrist gets in, then Defense Armlet doesn't even like it be useful for that (especially since Fire absorb would benefit from Immune: Oil). So...yeah, this seems like this needs something. I'm just not sure what. Again.
Unlike the other sections, I'll just outright skip the statuses I have no opinion on since I don't want to type "No suggested changes at present" out 30+ times. I am also not going to bother putting an ambivalent sub-section here:
["DARKNESS"] 1. Please finally universally rename this "Blind" or "Darkness" throughout all of the Master Guide. Honestly, it's rather tiring to have that still vacillate back and forth even if it's not originally your fault FFMaster. Please pick one and stick with it though.
[OIL] 1. This remains a "one-shot" status despite the status prevention issue considering how rare that should actually be. Of all the elemental weapons, only Heaven's Cloud, Ice Bow, Lightning Bow and technically Coral Sword & Air Knife, the latter of which doesn't even "work" in that regard, can regularly add statuses. Similarly, Grand Cross and Kagesougi are the only way of making elemental weapons otherwise add status and both of those abilities are already strong enough as it is.
2. Similarly, this remains not applicable to Holy or Dark status since AoE Death in the form of Demi 2 is silly. Changing Demi 2 as a "solution" isn't fair given that Demi 2 is finally usable (again) now. Also, Holy already obviates Flare as it is in most instances and it's kind of pointless to suggest changes for 139 to fix that if Oil is going to bring up again and make it worse. Dia would similarly become ridiculously unless you really want instant, Holy-element single-target Bolt 2s.
3. Oil blocks Haste and possibly even Cancels it. That way, Nameless Dance gets stronger without needing to add something ridiculous to it. Additionally teams that don't use the Oil-enhanced elements can still get some use out of it without Oil needing to do something as powerful as block Reactions since it technically lasts "forever".
[RERAISE] 1. Changes to (formally) cancel Death Sentence.
[BERSERK] 1. If so possible, then this trades CT with Reflect (or even Wall) and gets a finite CT of, say, 48.
[DEATH SENTENCE] 1. If anything new "should" block Reactions that doesn't already, then it should be finite and it should probably be this.
2. Similarly, this at the very least should cancel Reraise. I almost want to say it should block it to, but that's partly because of Dragon Spirit, which blocking Reactions would take care of, and partly because of my personal dislike, which isn't objective. So, yes, this changes to cancel Reraise.
[GENERAL] 1. Under the Master Guide's Elemental Absorption note, please note that Oil nullifies Null, Halve & Absorb. That's kind of important really.
2. Please add "unless Blind/afflicted by Darkness" to the end of the description of Squire's "Concentrate" Support.
3. Similarly, please rephrase Transparent status's description as "Eliminates defender's P-EV unless Blind/afflicted by Darkness".
4. Please rephrase Paladin's "Counter" Reaction as the following: "Counter with physical attack if attacker with exact weapon range, i.e. 4 spaces away for Crossbows." I'm forgetful, but I doubt I'm only person to not remember that or to, even as I type that, still doubt if I'm "remembering" that correctly.
5. Similarly, the same goes for Samurai's "Meatbone Slash" Reaction please (I think). Might even want to note that Direct weapons won't magickally go through Allies IIRC, but I find it more fun for people to discover that first-hand.
6. Please clarify Oracle's "Absorb MP" to be "Restores 30 MP when affected by an MP-using ability" since that's what it really is.
7. Please change "when damaged" to "when affected by Faith-based magic" for Bard & Dancer's shared "Faith UP" ability. Admittedly, I'm not how it reacts to Nether spells, Comet or Ninjutsu, but it should definitely be noted that it reacts to Cure and such sans resurrection. (Or does this trigger off Raise and such too? I forget.)
8. Almost forgot: Please note that Death, Chakra & Life Song heal the Undead. Might even want to note in Undead's description that it doesn't reverse elemental healing or Regen & Move-HP UP's healing.
Forgetful EDIT: Figure I might as well add these in while I'm going through and fixing typos.
9. Something I did forget: May want to note somewhere or somehow that Rainbow Staff & Natural Wrist negate White Robe & Thief Hat's Halving Abilities due to how the "neutrality" is attained.
10. Something I did forget: Please add the recent hack that makes Break skills not attacks if the target doesn't have appropriate equipment. This shouldn't really affect Bow Gun if it's fixed to actually work, but Shieldrender may need a boost (somehow) when it also gets fixed.
11. Something I did forget: Please at least consider using Xifanie's stat limitation hack, especially if Battle Song and Magic Song are going to stay so high (and especially if Quickening continues to live).
[UNDECIDED] 1. Clarifying Distribute: May want to note that it doesn't work on self-healing (like most reactions don't react to self-target abilities), but I'm pretty sure everyone knows that by now.
2. Clarifying Damage Split: May want to note that by "shift", it both damages the enemy and heals the user by that amount. However, pretty much everyone knows that and I can't think of a concise or, rather, fluid way to phrase that. Still, I'm trying to think of newer people who might be less familiar with FFT and just generally trying to be "thorough" if so much is changing.
3. Regen & Poison: I'm still not comfortable with these lasting past death, especially with Masamune & Hawk's Eye around. However, at present, I can't think of a "good" solution to making them more usable otherwise, so I'll leave them alone. For now.
I'll compile everything that's been (more or less) agreed upon by Friday.
(Double) Forgetful EDIT: Pretty much all typos fixed and three things added under General Changes. ...Or, rather, make that five changes total with an additional two changes under the Undecided skill section that I, of course, also forgot about.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Barren on January 09, 2013, 09:40:30 am
Here is my BlueMage idea finally, I don't know if it should replace mediators but I think its worth a try. Tell me what do you all think?
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on January 09, 2013, 04:59:34 pm
(Well today's turning out "great" again it seems.)
Regardless, I went through and fixed most of my idiotic typos in my suggestion list from last night. I also added five things--even if that took editing it twice, sigh--that I had forgotten last night: two under the Undecided part of Classes & Abilities and three under the General section.
Anyway, I also forgot to say I'll be adding a formal "bug & typo" fix list to the composite post that will be out around Friday night even though I think I touched on most of them in the above suggestion list.
Well, those equipments and stats look more or less fine, though if it's replacing Mediator, then it should probably keep Mediator's 4 Move, especially if most of its skills are going to be instant. I suck at balancing stats though.
Its skills are an entirely different matter of balance however. To be frank, most of the ones you suggested aside from the first two and maybe Blaster & Look of Devil are horribly overpowered if not outright broken. Putting everything to Sleep, having an even better form of Tornado, having a better form of Spell Absorb, having an AoE 3 Faithless nuke, having AoE 4 anything at 100% and having Self-Destruct make your skill-set broken. No exceptions.
(Also, Hurricane also exists as another, different skill, i.e. Windslash Bow's proc.)
As for the other skills, well, the first two are actually kind of underwhelming at lower levels and have separate problem: we don't really need another Murasame, which kinda screws over Choco Cure, and Goblin Punch's power both doesn't get threatening until about 20 PA, after which it quickly gets absurd (as with quadratic anything really). Blaster is possibly fine, if only because both Chronos Tear & Soft are cheap and a couple of items block both. Look of Devil is also maybe fine, though I don't really like anything adding Dead if we can avoid it and it kinda gives the already unused Bad Luck unnecessary competition.
As said before, it's probably best to avoid taking the vanilla form of monster skills when it comes to Blue Magick. I meant that for every game given how broken Final Fantasy games are (as with most RPGs after a certain point) and it's rather obvious that Nightmare is FFT:A's busted Night skill by slightly different name.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Barren on January 09, 2013, 05:06:23 pm
Well it doesn't have to be like that exactly, its only a rough idea anyways. But if people don't like it then its okay, I just figured it was worth a shot
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on January 09, 2013, 08:18:15 pm
(But of course.)
Yeah, I mean I didn't think it was your final version or anything, especially with everything else you have to do, and the basic stats and equipment seem good. The problem is most of those abilities are overpowered regardless of what type of draft is though.
To be "realistic" about the Blue Mage thing, we have to take several things into account besides just what class it replaces:
1. What happens to the abilities of that class it replaces, i.e. what would happen not just to Mediator's skills if we "nuked" the holding class itself, but also its RSMs.
2. How they compare to other human classes, which is obvious, but something that still would need to be addressed and acknowledge such as not giving Blue Mage skills that obviate other skills, especially other powerful skills like Tornado or Mimic Daravon.
3. How they compare to monsters, which is also obvious since there's no point in bringing monsters in if they're already obviated, which is a problem that monsters (and Mimes) have already with the current classes as is. The same goes for Blue Mages if they were to come after monsters though at this point it's likely they would come before.
4. How or even if they inform monsters' abilities if Blue Mage comes first or vice versa for Blue Mages' abilities if monsters come first. ...Of course, it's not like this particular Blue Mage has to have monster abilities from (all) of the monsters that make it in or even the exact same version, even if they have 16 skills. I think this is what everyone suspects given Eternal's comment, since that's the only way said "mid-battle" comment would make sense given the nature of ARENA. Regardless of that, it raises another issue though.
5. How (or if) Blue Mage influences the type of monsters that get in. At present, the only thing that seems to be agreed upon when it comes to monsters is that there will be no classes within monster families and all families will be made into composites. So that means that 48 monsters is already narrowed down to "just" 16, which is frankly necessary so as to be manageable. Beyond that, though, even before we get into the obvious "focuses" issue, we have to deal with the key question: What type of monsters are getting in? Do we just universally use the monsters from vanilla? Even with all the problems the Undead monsters have usually had? And how Hydra would probably remain the strongest regardless of changes due to the basic nature of it "having" to have Triple Attack and such?
Yeah. Blue Mage would need a lot more decided upon about it than just what it gets in terms of stats, equipment and ability unlike Druid, which is "replacing" a class that's pretty much quite similar to it. So I guess it's good we're talking about it now even though there's almost no way it's getting into 139 because it, like monsters, would probably take a while to decide.
That said, I could probably put a quick draft of what I was "expecting" when it comes to Blue Mages myself, but meh.
Regardless (of versions of drafts), it's ultimately up to FFMaster (and some vague sub-forum consensus) whether he wants to even have the class or not. Well, him and PX too technically I suppose, though PX is pretty much never around, at least on the forums; I don't know whether he's on IIRC or hidden, but I haven't seen that guy (?) in ages despite him still being (sub-)moderator for ARENA.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Barren on January 09, 2013, 08:37:19 pm
Well I appreciate the feedback, and definitely it is up to FFMaster if he wants Blue Mage or not. And I'm glad you took it as a rough draft because that's all it really is. Of course it can be nerfed and what not to make the skills less OP'd and balanced enough so it becomes usable without being too much of a challenge to overcome.
Hopefully it does get a yay but if nay then no biggie.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Dokurider on January 10, 2013, 05:28:37 am
This was designed to give Natural Wrist a partner, because otherwise, it's can't really compete with the other accessories that absorb/cancel shield weaknesses.
or
20 P/M Ev +2 Move/Jump Immune: Crystal
Immortality in exchange for a reckless streak?
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on January 11, 2013, 05:20:21 pm
(Ugh, I think I forgot suggest more things, like Thief losing a bit of HP even if it loses Quickening [as it should] since it can hit pretty damn hard now and is naturally the fastest and most evasive class [that can use equipment]. The more I think about it though, the more Oracle's suggested HP boost possibly isn't necessary since I was looking solely at the female HP. Then again, an awful lot of people are sitting at around 165 HP and literally no one has 175....)
The first shield is kind of interesting, especially since you don't have to use Natural Wrist (or Rainbow Staff) to counter its effects but it's not otherwise trivially dealt with even with the suggestion of moving Null: Ice to Defense Ring. Similarly, it would still encourage use of some lesser used things like the Float Movement, Feather Boots and N-Kai Armlet, which is always good to see. It's also not entirely redundant to P Bag or Light Robe. Still, Poison's already kind of weak enough, but maybe if the spell gets actually moved to Time Mage (or Oracle) and Wiznaibus becomes cheaper, that will change....
As for the second shield, haha. Hell no. Do you really want immortal 6-move Teleporting Geomancer-Draw-Out bots who can now use all of their other slots on boosting MA? Yeah...no.
Anyway, here's my Blue Mage proposal. It took a bit longer than I thought for a...couple of reasons I'm not going to get into now. Stat-wise and equipment, Barren's was mostly fine as I said yesterday. I just expanded on that.
I completely redid most of its abilities though; I might even use some of these versions for either of my patches now:
1. Rods - Due to Muramasa & Two Swords. 2. Ninjato - Due to Hidden Knife + Muramasa. Even if Ninja can already do that, they're "squishier". 3. Poles - Enough people have those and already aren't using them most of the time anymore. 4. Knives - Same as above, though these have been seeing a lot more recent usage. 5. Swords - Tempting, but "boring".
That 4 Move could perhaps go (back) to Squire instead. Squire can maybe even have the 9 Speed as well. This even if its equipment set is arguably the best and its already greatly improving skill set would be getting an influx of Mediator's good skills, the latter necessitating that it gets Monster Talk innately. I'd be fine with giving Blue Mage more HP if that happened though (since I considered doing that anyway).
Leaving stats as "decided", this would mean that we can finally get to its moveset, which is the "real" potential problem here.
First, though, assuming that Mediator is the class replaced with this, we have to decide what to do with both Mediator's abilities and RSMs. It seems highly unlikely that all their abilities would or should die, especially with the changes I just suggested for them. Similarly, their RSMs aren't dying; even Monster Talk can stay if monsters are finally making it in.
At present, I think it's best if a good amount of its skills go to Squire, which has 8 (Accumulate, Focus, Throw Stone, Bullrush, Heal, Yell, Wish & Ultima) currently. The rest of them can probably die though (or go to Thief). The same goes for the RSMs except that instead of dying, they'll become Blue Mage's, which would need more RSMs than that anyway:
1. Blackmail: Can probably go to Squire. 2. Persuade (changed): Can maybe go to Squire. 3. Preach: Can probably die. 4. Solution (changed): Can probably go to Squire 5. Death Sentence: Can probably die. 6. Insult: Can maybe go to Squire or die. 50/50. 7. Refute (changed): Can probably go to Squire. 8. Mimic Daravon: Can probably go to Squire. May get nerfed if it went to Squire.
Squire's Heal can probably die if that occurs then and Focus might have to go someone else like, say, Thief, though it's not like Talk Skill benefits from MA-boosting so heavily on neutral compatibility. As for RSMS, well Squire can get Finger Guard, which may have to drop all the way to 50 JP, and Monster Talk, which it would have to also get innately.
Blue Mage gets to keep Unyielding and the suggested change of Move-1 from 138 Paladin. Blue Mage would then get Bard & Dancer's Brave Up--suggested to be 100 JP--and Faith Up reactions since the former sees no use and the latter isn't really useful to either class's primary.
Of course, it's a question as to whether the Blue Mage skills should even go on Faith...or even use that much MP considering monsters don't really have the chance to get much MP. (This reminds me that I need to ask someone how the hell you up initial & potential MP growth since it's really pathetic, especially on the monster side, the amount that units start out with.)
Regardless, let's try to decide on 16 abilities for this class, which is the "real" crux:
1. Choco Esuna - This would likely become a single-target, instant, multi-negative-status-cancelling Range 4 ability. This would NOT cure the same things as Esuna or Stigma Magic, but instead focus on more esoteric status, like Oil, Undead & Berserk. JP cost 100 or at most 150. (Represents Chocobos - Would be had by the monster.)
2. Goblin Punch - Probably "best" if it's a single-target version of the current Cover Fire to some degree, which includes being non-elemental. Might allow this to cost 0 MP. Cost for this around 150 or 200 JP. Affected by P-EV. (Represents Goblins - May be had by the monster.)
3. Blood Suck/Red Feast - Close-range HP drain that drains 20% or 25% and has a 25% chance of inflicting Undead--this is one of the few things Separate is useful for. Possibly affected by P-EV. Costs 200 JP. (Represents Panthers - May be had by the monster.)
4. Mad Bomber/Mad Bombing - Range 3 persevering Fire-elemental MA-based attack with CT 4. Subject to M-EV. Not really all that damaging by itself. Has a small chance of causing Oil. Costs 200 or 250 JP. Would obviously need to cost MP. May be subject to Reflect. (Represents Bombs - Unlikely to be had by monster.)
5. Flood - Water version of Tornado or Quake. Boring, but meh. Not like Scholar/Druid has room for it what with having Maelstrom. Then again, Scholar/Druid does have Earth Dragon & Quake, so.... The same costs and stats as Tornado & Quake. (Represents Mindflayers - Likely to be had by monster.)
[SCRAPPED (IN THE SENSE THAT BLUE MAGE HAS IT): Odd Soundwave/Eerie Soundwave - Auto AoE 2, non-discriminating Cancel: positive status ability that would NOT ignore the user/self. Based on PA rather than being 100% and thus subject to P-EV. Having CT unlikely, so MP cost necessary as to not outpace Dispel even with its AoE 1 upgrade (or Chaos Blade, Gold Staff & Spellbreaker). Costs around 200 JP. (Represents Mindflayers - Likely to be had by monster.)]
6. Trine - Tri-directional, range 3, 0 CT Lightning-elemental magick since, powerful as Hydras are, their attacks are a bit too random. This especially since monsters aren't going to be able get away with being OHKO machines ala 1.3 so as to be able to compete. This would be at least moderately strong, so probably at least 250 JP and at least MP 8 (like Houkouton). (Represents Hydras - Probably to be had by monster.)
7. Nap Time! - Because Pooh! really needs a less...silly & vulgar name. This would be MA-based, but unavoidable and a CT 3 attempt at adding Sleep, Don't Act or Stop. Its MP would probably be 8 like Bad Luck's is/was. Costs around 200 JP. (Represents Uribos - Probably to be had by monster.)
8. Earth Shaker/Tremor - Auto AoE 2 Earth elemental that does not discriminate and has a 20% chance of causing Don't Move. 0 CT, so it would also have to cost a bit of MP and it's perhaps best if it's based off of both PA & MA and avoidable. Costs around 250 JP. (Represents Bulls - Probably would be had by monster.)
9. Aero - Wind version of the older Time Mage Demi, meaning it would do 25% in AoE 1 at CT 2 for around 12 or 15 MP. The only difference is that this would be based of MA and not Faith & MA. Still M-EV though. Costs around 200 or 250 JP. (Represents Aevises/Avions - Might be had by monster.)
10. Bad Breath - Linear 2--because it's sure as hell not going to be Auto AoE 2 here--non-discriminating attempt at adding several negative statuses at Random: Blind, Silence, Don't Act, Don't Move, Poison, Petrify & Frog. This would have to be 0 CT/instant so as to prevent the AI from "diagonal targeting" and thus making it 2 directional (unless someone's finally worked out a solution to that). As such, it's probably best if this isn't 100%, but instead PA-based (and thus subject to P-EV) with "just" high chance of hitting. Of course, making it solely PA-based automatically makes it vulnerable to Blind, correct? That's rather nonsensical since it's breath. So perhaps MA-based with a lower chance than a PA version would be better despite M-EV still being somewhat scarce. Regardless, this should probably cost at least 250 JP and a bit of MP. (Represents Malboros - Would have [a version] of this.)
11. Harm - Exact same as the spell for my proposal of redone Wizard Staff, meaning it's a Dark version of Dia that adds Silence instead of Blind. Similarly costs 150 JP since people seem to be fine with that. (Represents Skeletons or Ghosts - They seem kind of interchangable at present to be honest.)
12. Cold Soul - Range 4, single-target, Ice elemental magickal attack that's instant, subject to M-EV and has a 50% chance of dispelling Regen, Reraise, Protect, Shell and Reflect. So...basically a distant Ice version of what Spellbreaker is "supposed" to be doing that's actually subject to M-EV. As such, as I imagine that the X for this wouldn't surpass 9 and it would cost at around 200 JP. (Represents Skeletons or Ghosts - They seem kind of interchangable at present to be honest.)
13. Mighty Guard - Range 5, single-target, Faith-based attempt to add Protect, Shell & Regen to a target. Yeah, Wall hardly needs more competition, but this would take up its old MP cost & not be guaranteed and Wall could probably drop to 18 MP. Both would be subject to Reflect I suppose. This would be around 250 JP. (Represents Woodfolk - Would probably have this.)
14. Ray Bomb - Range 4, AoE 1, Holy-elemental, around CT 5, high-moderate Faith-based damage spell. This probably would be around 300 JP. (Represents [Holy] Dragons - The monster might have this.)
15. Look of Devil - Barren's ability works here aside from the add Dead aspect I suppose. It could also probably stand to be a bit quicker without that. This should have a JP cost around 200 I suppose. (Represents Flying Eyes - Monster likely to have this.)
16. Meteor - Very high, non-elemental, by necessity Faith-based AoE 3 damage that would have a high MP, CT and JP cost. Might have to cost as much as 500 JP and CT as high as 10, but I'd rather not have such a pseudo-prohibition be necessary since it wouldn't deter anyone who really wanted a "nuke" anyway. (Represents Behemoths - Monster might have this.)
It's rather telling that I can't really think of anything for Flying Eyes or Behemoths, hunh? When it comes to Flying Eyes, the only other thing I could think of would be trying to replicate Roulette (with Death Sentence, of course), but what I got was so underwhelming that it might have to cost 50 JP just to be useful. So I just used Barren's since that was one of his more reasonable skills.
With regards to Behemoth, well, no more elements were left and most statuses were taken already. Additionally, they historically have been linked to Meteor, Comet and such. It is rather difficult, however, to think of a "sequel" to a spell that currently fixed damage, especially in light of Auto Potion; of course, Comet and its ilk often being random damage doesn't help much either inspiration-wise. I suppose one could make a Meteorain that does 80 damage over at least AoE 1 if not more so that it can at least break even with Auto Potion, but...yeah. Shrug.
I figure a good deal, if not most, of Blue Mage's Blue Magic(k) skills would end up being "expensive" JP-wise since they have access to one of all monster skills and, through secondaries, revival. I'm not sure where I stand on it being subject to Silence given historically Blue Magic hasn't--even if that was a glitch initially I suppose--and only about a quarter of its abilities would probably end up going by Faith.
I mean, if Paladin can have freaking Reraise at 100% that's not subject to Silence....
Thought exercise over. I'll have the compiled of changes and bugs (that I remember) list up by tonight.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Dokurider on January 11, 2013, 05:58:31 pm
Well Always: Regen and Immune: Poison is just a placeholder; it could be anything, as long as it justifies the Elemental weaknesses. Immune: Crystal isn't as strong as you think it is. It's only good if allies can reach the corpse. But maybe the +2 Move is unjustified. I'm just not convinced Immune: Crystal alone is good enough.
We just had to start talking about monsters and Blue Mages again, didn't we?
That way, Poison will still block Phoenix Down and Wish, but otherwise won't be the death of that unit. It just has to wait Poison out.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on January 11, 2013, 07:45:30 pm
(Hey, it's not my fault that FFMaster brought up monsters again. I'm not even pushing for Blue Mages or anything, as much as I like them.)
Yeah, the Immune: Crystal part wasn't what I had a problem it with, hence my focusing the 6-Move thing with 20% evasion; Phoenix Blade still being around doesn't exactly me feel "better" with Immune: Crystal though.
The new combined shield is...something I'll have to think about.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on January 12, 2013, 09:01:10 pm
(...Why does the "Print" function blatantly skip [a lot] of posts in threads that are shorter than I've seen it work perfectly for [on other forums]?
...Anyway, I began this on Friday night, so I more or less kept my "promise".)
Before I forget again, before 138 was released, Raven actually provided a formula fix for Cover Fire that seems to have been ignored for one reason or another:
"For Cover Fire, reducing the Y to 60 doesn't do much, just reduces damage by 10-30 points. I recommend changing it from (1...3)*(PA+70) to (1...6)*(PA+25)."
Anyway, this is a compiled list of things up to the 5th of January 2013, which is basically the end of page 46 in the Balance thread. This isn't to screw over Wiz--his singular post is here (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=5431.920#msg184467)--or anything; I just decided doing it from week back when FFMaster asked would be "best".
I'll fix typos and stuff that either I realize I forgot or that people tell me I forgot or misinterpreted later. It doesn't really help that I kinda wiped my bug list twice and can't find my old one:
1. Suggested of adding Cloths to "Equip Polearm", Harps to "Equip Magegear" and Headbands to "Equip Clothing".
2. Suggested Oil blocking reactions; I initially agreed with this--I no longer do at present.
3. Suggested agreed with Gaignun's Time Magic changes and generally thought that Haste 2, Slow 2 and Sinkhole changing to 200 JP from 300 JP.
4. Suggested changing merging Fly with Float.
5. Suggested moving "Defend" from Squire (to Chemist or a couple of other classes besides Squire).
6. Suggested making "Speed +1" instead of "Move-CT UP", though he admitted that "we" could probably do both; the latter is just requires (a lot) more effort for relatively little pay-off.
7. Suggested Wish be changed to Range 3 rather than my initial suggestion of 100% accuracy; I concurred and continue to do so.
8. Disagreed with my suggestion that Immune: Blind being given to just Salty Rage; thought it should also be given to Genji Helmet.
9. Suggested Ninjato changes (eventually) after agreeing that Sasuke Knife and most of the other current Ninjato aren't worth using; he was going to wait until 140 to bring it up, as was I.
10. Thought we should kill Power Wrist & Genji Gauntlet instead of Sprint Shoes to make room for the new accessory to take Crystal Shield's currently nigh-useless old properties.
11. Disagreed with pretty much all suggestions about trying to improve Ignore Height since he felt that unnecessary.
[I'm not going to bother reposting all the equipment stuff he already posted.]
1. Suggested adding "Don't Move" to Nameless Dance since he generally doesn't feel like the Dance skill-set is worth anything.
2. Suggested allowing Headbands to be equipped either through their own Equip X or part of "Equip Clothing".
3. Suggested giving Dancer's Cloths more evasion.
4. Suggested adding a skill to Basic Skill that was self-targeting and healed 20% HP while adding Berserk.
5. Suggested increasing Haste & Haste 2's Y values by 50%.
6. Suggested increasing Slow & Slow 2's Y values by 25%.
7. Suggested increasing Stop & Don't Move's durations above 25 clock ticks so that an affected 8 Speed unit would be affected for more than 1 turn.
8. Suggested +1 range for Comet and Sinkhole.
9. Suggested Geomancer perhaps getting access to Staves naturally, though not very strongly because of Magegear.
10. Suggested making White Staff Holy elemental.
11. Suggested making Light Robe & P Bag immune to Poison; this was immediately disagreed with by Raven.
12. Agreed with my suggestion of possibly making Song & Dance vulnerable to Silence, but ONLY if Dancers were capable of equipping Robes since, again, he feels like Dance sucks.
13. Agreed that Masamune was/is overpowered and suggested that it should turn to "2 separate 50+ma% chances for each status similar to how the Byblos demon's skill."
14. Suggested Thief could use some more MP and some more MA.
15. Suggested moving Blind, Charm and Stop immunity from Chakra Band to Choice Band.
1. Suggested maybe adding Equip Headbands to Martial Arts; Raven and most other people weren't sure how to feel about this while I disagreed because of Ninja.
2. Suggested a solution to the very limited Item Attribute space, a solution that he had Raven work on.
3. Suggested Teleport changes that everyone else felt were unnecessary.
1. Suggested changing Spear to cause 50% Execute, Mythril Spear to cause 50% Bad Luck, Partisan to cast nothing and Holy Spear to have 33% Spellbreaker.
2. Suggested Gold Staff to have 20% W-EV and Rainbow Staff to get Immune: Oil, both in addition to their respective aspects already.
3. Initially suggested White Staff & Wizard Staff to share Initial: Shell & Initial: Protect with Cashmere & Persia respectively. Then he remembered that Knightswords with the attributes that were having problems already existed as I reminded him. He then suggested changing White Staff to Halve: Fire & Ice & Lightning and Wizard Staff to have +1 MA & Always: Transparent. (I immediately disagreed with the latter.)
4. Disagreed with reinoe's changes with regards to Staves and Black Magick. Dokurider did agree, however, that Healing Staff might need more power or it might just need to bypass the Fury mechanic.
5. Suggested Long Bow's Range increased to 7 or 8 or give it initial: Float instead of +1 Move and thought that Lightning Bow & Ice Bow should lose their +2 MA.
6. Suggested that Slasher be reduced to 8 WP with a 50% chance of Extra Attack...before being reminded that Axe's formula got fixed a while ago and rescinding this since it would make Slasher even worse.
8. Suggested making Germinas Boots have 2 Move with Always: Death Sentence. Everyone else quickly shot this down.
9. Suggested Ignore Height possibly lessening "the duration of negative status (negate 3 CT from each negative status each time moved)".
10. Suggested turning Crystal Shield into a Kaiser Plate-esque shield for Wind, Water & Earth,
11. Suggested making an accessory that blocked both Charm & Blind.
12. Agreed with the suggestion to have Air Knife be 11 WP but still Two Hand capable.
13. Suggested giving Battle Axe just straight out Dead proc; I immediately shot this down.
14. Suggested (via formerdeathcorps's suggestion--I presume on IRC or via PM) that Heretic goes to Ninja & Thief gets Houkouton. That or Heretic got made "better" somehow or added Regen to the self. I shot down the last two options.
1. Suggested changing Last Song back from 34% to 50%; I initially agreed with this, though I'd like to see it a bit less than 50% for a bit now....
2. Explicitly agreed with Gaignun's initial Time Mage suggestion.
3. Disagreed with the percentage amount that Malroth was boosting Time Magick's spells, though he agreed that Haste & Haste 2 could probably see a slightly accuracy boost.
4. Ambivalently agreed that "+1 range for Comet should be ok", but disagreed that Sinkhole needed more range.
5. Wasn't sure what to make of Stop (the status) having more of a duration.
6. Suggested boosting the current versions of Persuade, Preach & Solution's hit rates (which was part of an agreement with Raven).
1. Suggested initial Time Mage & Time Magick changes the people generally agreed with and also suggested Priest being the mage to sit at 9 SP.
Code: [Select] Female HP MP SP PA MA Priest 106 82 9 6 10 Time Mage 125 87 8 3 10
Change HP MP SP PA MA Priest -19 -- +1 -- -- Time Mage +19 +10 -1 -- +1
...Then a couple of months later he had a radically different Time Mage suggestion that would instead see them getting Shields and have them (and Priest) not changing stat-wise.
2. Suggested turning Ninja into a "debuffing unit" or at the very least giving them " 0 CT ranged or self-targeting AoE skill that does damage and cancels Regen and/or Haste at 100% efficiency" as a way of combating rampant Masamune. This attack would probably be thematically based on the "explosive tag".
1. Was the first to realize the Reflect bug with Lore because of Math Skill's spot.
2. Suggested perhaps lowering Poison & Regen's CT if they're going to remain after Death.
3. Agreed with Dokurider's proposal for an accessory that Blocks Charm & Blind.
1. Suggested Flare needing a boost, partly because of Golden Hairpin being overpowered and benefiting the already strong Holy.
2. Had his own suggestion for Staves (like pretty much everyone else):
White Staff - WP: 8; W-EV: 10%; Range: 1; Element: Holy; Special: 50% Cast: Dia; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.
Healing Staff - WP: 14; W-EV: 15%; Range: 1; Special: Restore: HP, Strengthen: Holy; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.
Wizard Staff - WP: 5; W-EV: 10%; Range: 1; Speed +1; Null:Silence; Two Hands: Yes; Two Hands: Yes.
As for the other Staves, I don't know what to think about them. Except I like Mace Of Zeus as it is. Wizards don't have access to it and scholars have better options for boosting Lightning. **** (from later post) I'm feeling inspired... Gold Staff - WP: 10; W-EV: 30%; Range: 1; Special: 100% Cancel on hit: All positive statii; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.
The high power is to encourage people to create spellcasters who will enter combat. Since magic-users are squishy I'd greatly increase the Evasion on the staff as well.
3. Suggested Mimes becoming immune to Blind, Don't Act & Silence; Raven & I disagreed with this, though I remembered incorrectly that Silence does actually affect Mimes.
4. Suggested Black Magick other than Flare seeing a boost because he thought Black Magick still seemed underpowered, partly because it was used so little as a secondary. I pointed out why it was used so little as a secondary, i.e. lack of revival.
5. Suggested Long Bow be changed to this:
Long Bow - WP: 14; W-EV: 10%; Range: 6; Special: Move+1; Two Hands: Forced; Two Swords: No.
Similarly suggested that Lighting Bow & Ice Bow get +2 PA instead of +2 MA, which Dokurider and myself disagreed with.
6. Lamented that Frog no longer lasted beyond death.
7. Suggested that Ignore Height perhaps be turned into a Movement that decreased negative statuses by some significant duration, somewhat like a Reverse Spellbound. ("Reverse Spellbound" was my description, not his.)
1. Suggested that Ignore Height be tied into the Jump skillset somehow, like maybe lowering the CT of Jump.
2. Made it known that he was perfectly fine with Silence becoming Addle after formerdeathcorps stated he thought Eternal felt otherwise.
3. Wondered why Yell cost 8 MP if Masamune existed as it does with AoE, Regen and no MP cost.
1. Stated that Power Wrist & Genji Gauntlet weren't worthless.
2. Suggested that Salty Rage (and by extension, Genji Helmet) should go back to being Always: Berserk.
3. Suggested that Masamune wasn't "broken" unless one had two units running with it--he and I had a long back and forth about this that I'm not reproducing here.
4. Was generally the only person against Elemental Neutralizers.
5. Suggested that Bloody Strings be weakened to 8 WP (by saying it's actually equivalent to 1.5 of its normal WP on average).
6. Implied something should be done with Iron Fan.
7. Hesitantly suggested that Sasuke Knife might be better off as +2 Speed if we wanted to improve it; moot now.
8. Suggested swapping Defense Ring's Absorb Water with Jade Armlet's Null Ice since he felt the former was too strong as it presently is.
9. Suggested changing Time Mage's Speed to 10 instead of 8; I've increasingly found this to be a preferable idea.
1. Originally concurred with Raven about Oil blocking Reactions; I no longer do.
2. Concurred with Malroth about Cloths getting more evasion, like 20% W-EV.
3. Concurred with Equip X improvements; now currently ambivalent towards Cloths & Headband & Harps moving.
4. Suggested "Equip Clothes" to Monk, which Raven agreed with and said was actually smart for once. Secretly I squeed.
5. Switching "Crystal Shield" & "Salty Rage" at least conceptually; disagreed with by Raven, at least in the sense of making a shield that caused Berserk...which wasn't what I was ever suggesting. He obviously agreed with the elementally neutral accessory, as pretty much everyone else except for fdc did.
6. Suggested Battle Song & Magic Song go back to 50% (since Song > Dance overall in my opinion); disagreed with by Raven and then later formerdeathcorps, though the latter was more disagreeing with my "Song > Dance" conclusion.
7. Suggested making the three non-Holy Lance breath spears elemental. I had also originally suggested making them weaker in terms of WP, especially if Lancers got Robes back, but I no longer "require" that.
8. Suggested Balancing Ribbon Usefulness since Ribbon/Chakra Band was far and away the most useful in most instances and Barette/Choice Band was pretty much never used:
Raven and I basically seem to have compromised on this, though I'm still weary of Ribbon blocking that much, especially when it comes to his most recent version.
9. Originally concurred with CT5Holy that Last Song should return to 50%; I'm no longer convinced it should, though that's partly because I think it should be equal to the (seemingly) weaker Last Dance, which I'm convinced needs a boost, but not to 50% after I realized it could do something potentially really obnoxious.
10. Concurred with Gaignun's original proposal for Time Mages...which is part of the reason I would then months later waste a page arguing about his secondary shield proposal (for Time Mages, not a mage in general). I also came to agree with formerdeathcorps's proposal of giving Time Mage 10 Speed. Let it be noted that everyone was a lot less unanimous about JP costs for things outside of that they should be "less" and that the two Haste spells need at least a slight accuracy buff.
11. Agreed with everyone that Flare could cost slightly less and maybe be slightly faster due to Holy and Golden Hairpin.
12. Agreed with Raven's idea for Armor (after viciously mauling them to have more MP and stuff).
13. Had my own idea for Staves as with everyone else. No need to repost that given an updated version is posted in my "personal" post in this thread anyway.
14. Apparently agreed, while siding with Dokurider against most of reinoe's suggestions, that +1 Move or Range 7 on Long Bow would be fine, partly because nothing had Initial: Float and this was before the "Item Attributes for everyone!" thing was (maybe) decided upon.
15. Agreed with Raven & Dokurider that Lightning Bow & Ice Bow are fine.
16. Agreed with the sentiment of Slasher being Two-Sword-able after bringing up the "fact" that Battle Axe needs to be nerfed and Giant Axe currently obviates Slasher.
17. Was ambivalent towards Persia getting Initial: Haste & Cashmere getting +2 Speed, though I felt the Persia, at the time, was getting "gyped" if that occurred. Still kind of do.
18. Posed "Defend" question to people, primarily Raven. Ended up (reluctantly) agreeing that it "should" go to Chemist if it didn't go Mediator.
19. Had suggested that Wish be 100% accurate if it was going to restore such a pitiful amount, but eventually agreed that it getting Range 3 should be enough if not better or at least an immense improvement to its current sorry state.
20. Formally suggested for "Alacrity" to be renamed "Focus", "Venetian Shield" to be renamed "Zephyr Shield" (in the Master Guide) and that "Ramia Harp" for "Lamia Harp".
21. Suggested Hidden Knife's W-EV 0% since it was/is basically obviating most of the other Ninjato as it is even before having the same evasion as them.
22. Suggested that Salty Rage (and by extension, Genji Helmet) get "Block:/Immune: Blind", though initially I hadn't wanted Genji Helmet to get it.
23. Suggested Sprint Shoes to be replaced with the Neutral: All Element Accessory partly because I erroneously believed them to be the least used items among those that hadn't ever been changed. Well that and because I view(ed) them as superfluous with Quickening around.
24. Suggested Nameless Song gets Add: Defending" to finally see some use; I quickly found out that it will use Nameless Song now though, so this suggestion is rescinded.
25. Suggested that Masamune lose Regen since Draw Out already has Murasame, which is arguably the best healing ability in the entire game (and has kinda been that way since Vanilla).
26. Suggested making Song/Sing/Bardsong vulnerable to Silence because it's "sensible" and because it's really the only way to stop it aside from Dance, which has lower values now. Suggested that Dance also be made vulnerable to Silence, if only because it would be "fair" (though I didn't think it was altogether necessary).
27. Suggested that people not need to spend 500 JP just to unlock their Primary & Secondary since I felt it the best possible change due to not favoring doing away with the JP limits altogether. I then conceded that this may mean slightly upping the cost of opening classes from 250 to...something else.
28. Was lukewarm to Dokurider's suggestion that the Crystal Shield replacement be a Kaiser Plate-esque shield for Wind, Water and Earth. Conceded that it was better than my lack of ideas, especially since an Immune: Blind shield was only thing I could (and still can) think of and I felt it might upset the balance too much.
29. Disagreed that there needed to be an accessory that blocked both Blind & Charm.
30. Suggested that the "leftover" accessory, if there was a second new one, might "need" to be "Immune: Innocent & Faith" since nothing else is save for one piece of armor and soon to be a Ribbon with still dubious accessibility.
31. Suggested Quickening gets raised to (at least) 20 MP if it doesn't die horribly. (As I increasingly think it should, which is saying something since I've thought it was a bad idea from the beginning.)
32. Suggested Thief's MP go up by (at least) 1.
33. Suggested Bad Luck's MP get reduced from 9 to 6 and that its Dead & Oil procs get replaced with Frog or Death Sentence or both. Also suggested it get renamed "Jinx" regardless.
34. Agreed Lancers should get Robes (back?).
35. Generally agreed with Raven's weapon changes after I brought up weapon "recap" list that included changes (or lack thereof) to half the weapons. Ignored weapon types at that point were Knightswords, Harps, Guns, Books, Cloths, Poles and Rods & Flails & Bags and, to a degree, Longbows.
36. Suggested that Refute needs to lose its ability to cancel Charging & Performing at the very least.
37. Suggested that Kagesougi needs to lose its ability to cause Don't Act given the immense amount of damage it can do already and its virtual guarantee of (two) statuses.
38. Suggested that Tsumazuku either be changed or die & being replaced.
39. Agreed that Heretic be moved to Ninja.
40. Ranted about Scholar being Wizard+ still from 1.3 in terms of stats. This is largely irrelevant, but something I do not want to see repeated by Druid.
41. Suggested adding Undead to Death, though Dokurider would later convince me this was a bad idea and Raven would later convince me that it was fine as a "niche". So I decided to only suggest dropping its JP to 150 for now.
1. It started with everyone agreeing that Golden Hairpin should lose +1 MA and Clothes in general needing MP boosts and the highest armors & the helmet that gives needing HP boosts, which resulted in the initial Equipment list of Raven that was the starting one for one he posted in here:
[HELMETS] HP 120 MP 040 Cross Helmet - No Added Effects. HP 150 MP 000 Grand Helmet - No Added Effects.
[HATS] HP 080 MP 020 Green Beret - Move +1, Jump +1. HP 070 MP 000 Twist Headband - PA +2. HP 070 MP 000 Holy Miter - MA +2. HP 110 MP 050 Black Hood - No Added Effect. HP 060 MP 030 Golden Hairpin - Strengthen: Holy, Dark. HP 080 MP 020 Flash Hat - Initial: Innocent. HP 060 MP 000 Thief Hat - SP +1, Half: Wind, Earth, Water.
[HEADBAND] HP 060 MP 060 Focus Band - Immune: Undead, Charm, Innocent, Faith. HP 040 MP 040 Choice Band - Immune: Dead, Frog, Petrify, Berserk, Sleep, Death Sentence. HP 020 MP 020 Chakra Band - Immune: Poison, Silence, Blind, Slow, Stop, Don't Move, Don't Act, Oil.
[ARMOR] HP 160 MP 000 Maximillian - No Added Effects.
[CLOTHES] HP 080 MP 000 Wizard Outfit - MA +2. HP 120 MP 030 Brigadine - No Added Effects. HP 100 MP 020 Santa Outfit - Absorb: Ice, Wind. HP 080 MP 000 Power Sleeve - PA +2. HP 090 MP 010 Earth Clothes - Absorb: Earth, Strengthen: Earth. HP 070 MP 000 Secret Clothes - SP +1. HP 100 MP 020 Black Costume - Absorb: Fire, Dark. HP 100 MP 020 Rubber Costume - Absorb: Lightning, Water.
[ROBES] HP 110 MP 040 Silk Robe - No Added Effects.
(I thought Silk Robe's MP should go up to 50 and expressed discomfort with Chakra Band/Ribbon still blocking so many statuses.
Gaignun disagreed with Golden Hairpin being reduced to 60 HP after losing MP & +1 MA, with the Absorbing Clothes that weren't Earth Clothes getting MP and Brigandine getting 30 MP.)
2. More or less everyone agrees that a "Speed +1" Movement should perhaps exist and, if it does, it should be at least 400 JP, though Gaignun had said he didn't think it should be less than 500 JP. No objected to it going to Ninja.
3. No one seemed to object to Chemist (or another class like Mediator or something) getting the unused "Defend" Support from Squire.
4. Everyone seemed fine with the Ninjato "Short Edge" keeping its accidental 50% Oil proc and being actually, you know, useful.
5. Everyone seemed to agree that Mediator's "Refute" shouldn't be able to cancel Charging & Performing, if only so the AI doesn't stupidly use it on its allies or itself.
6. Agreed that Squire's "Yell" could/should become instant, especially if Masamune remains itself.
7. No one disagreed with Kagesougi losing Don't Act.
8. Everyone agrees that Time Magic(k) and Time Mage need some type of buff...it's just matter of how to do that aside from everyone agreeing that both Haste spells, at the very least, could use a slight buff and that at least Haste 2 & Slow 2 could be a bit cheaper. That and everyone agrees that its Speed shouldn't be 9.
9. Everyone agrees that Air Knife no longer would need to "proc" Sleep even if that aspect of it was actually working.
10. Everyone agrees that Wish needs at least Range 3.
11. Everyone seems to agree with the Monk Overhaul stuff that got its own thread.
12. Similarly, everyone seems to agree with the most recent thing of the Cure overhauls.
13. Everyone agrees that Thief could use a bit more of MP.
14. Everyone agrees that Lancers should get Robes (back?).
15. Everyone tends to agree with Raven's weapon changes, excepting Phoenix Blade, Staves & Spellguns.
16. No one seems to strongly disagree with "Equip Polearm" getting Cloths, "Equip Magegear" getting Harps and "Equip Clothing" getting Headbands (& going to Monk).
17. Everyone generally agreed that, at most, Flare should be 40 MP and maybe 6 CT.
18. Despite almost everyone viewing it as a joke for some reason, everyone agreed that Slasher getting a buff to be usable with Two Swords would be fine (as long as it didn't keep as much of its W-EV) and Battle Axe was at least slightly ridiculous. Thus no one disagreed that Decapitate needs to be reduced to around 50%; people seem relatively ambivalent to my suggestion of re-naming that "proc" "Maim" though.
1. Masamune: Pretty much everyone seems to have differing points of view over this damn thing and what exactly should or shouldn't happen to it.
2. Quickening: This is slightly less divisive and more people just being seemingly indifferent (for some reason). Myself and Wiz at least think it needs to die while Raven and reinoe are more or less fine with it and no one else seems to have said anything else.
3. Time Mages: Despite starting out well with people agreeing with Gaignun's initial changes, this support for that fragmented when formerdeathcorp's suggested Time Mage get 10 speed instead of being reduced to 8. Then Gaignun came back and decided that all Time Mages need on the stat & equipment side was Shields.... Scholar turning into Druid thing kinda forced people's hands about the whole "mage who gets a Shield", but this is rather undecided.
4. Staves: This was somewhat related to Time Mage, but primarily because current Staves, save Mace of Zeus and maybe Wizard Staff, which is just a copy of Wizard Rod (now), aren't usable. That said, pretty much no one can agree on how exactly to fix them outside of vague agreements:
a. Gold Staff needs more W-EV b. Rainbow Staff should have Block Oil (and fdc seems to disagree with this) c. Healing Staff needs some type of buff, including maybe even more WP. d. White Staff should probably be Holy elemental.
Yeah.
5. Spellguns: ...Yeah, you (FFMaster) already know no one agrees on what to do with these things.
6. Oil: I think people generally agree that it could/"should" have a use for teams that have a teams that don't use the six elements that benefit, but no one really agrees how. It doesn't really that most of the suggestions have been...seemingly overpowered or overkill on an already powerful if "selective" status. Everyone seems to agree that at least something else should block it and something else should cure it though.
7. Crystal Shield: As you can see, no one's really sure what to do to replace it this. Everyone knows that it's currently almost entirely pointless though, especially since with P Bag & Light Robe's weaknesses gone, the only thing it covers is Cursed Ring. Too bad that Black Costume or Flame Shield + Santa Outfit or even White Robe all do that better, making this an inferior Escutcheon II on all units save for Lancers, who are getting (back) Robes.
1. Geomancer Move for females is not correct in the Master Guide.
2. Geomancer PA & MA is not correct in the Master Guide according to CT5Holy: apparently it should be 10 PA & 8 MA for males and 8 PA & 10 PA for females.
3. Thief's Air Knife isn't adding Sleep as it's "supposed" to, though considering it's OHKO everyone, it really doesn't need to add anything. Please take away its mention of 25% Sleep.
4. Speaking of Knives, Mage Masher is quite incorrect in the Master Guide. It says adds 50% Silence...when it both a) casts Bizen Boat instead and b) is casting Bizen Boat at 100%.
5. Similarly, Repel Knife's description is currently...deceptive if it's working as intentioned since it's adding Don't Act & Haste Separately instead of either both or nothing.
6. Shieldrender & Bow Gun's procs just aren't working.
7. Rainbow Staff still says that it's All elemental when it actually isn't anymore. Please fix this.
8. All the Ninjutsu that say they're supposedly avoidable by M-EV are actually subject to P-EV now.
9. Spellbreaker says that it dispels those statuses at 50% when it's actually 100%.
10. Chaos Blade's instance of "Reraise" is still misspelled as "Reriase".
11. Similarly, Mythril Helmet's "Immune" is still misspelled "Immunel".
12. As Wiz pointed out, Thief & Scholar have their sprite types mixed up or something, which is making Scholar's casting face weird.
13. Formally suggested for "Alacrity" to be renamed "Focus", "Venetian Shield" to be renamed "Zephyr Shield" (in the Master Guide) and that "Ramia Harp" for "Lamia Harp".
14. For Xifanie (I think): "Chronos Tear" is not supposed to be possessive; apparently its "Chrono's Tear" and in-game in the work sheet.
15. Needs to be a clear[er] indication that Bags can be equipped by everyone.
16. As Wiz also pointed out, Summoner's palettes for Yellow & Purple are apparently reversed.
17. "Sand Storm" is still adding Stop instead of Berserk.
18. "Cover Fire"'s formula in the Master Guide isn't correct.
1. Longbows & Crossbows graphically doubling certain attacks, mostly the ruins and "swordskill"-esque abilities; it probably doubles anything that uses the attack animation alongside some other animation that isn't FFFF. Not sure why since I still can't code worth a damn. This has been going on since FFT hacks have started being made though and this hasn't really abated, so....
2. Mimes mysteriously miming most but not all allied actions. Sometimes Mimes will just not repeat actions for reasons that have nothing to do with being inflicted by a status or the targeting being off the map. This is most notable in when a Mime spontaneously fails to mimic Song or Dance, you know, one of the few things it's actually good at presently. IIRC, this has also been around since the "beginning" of hacks and as far as I know, no one has ever really looked into it, so....
3. Math Skill's hard-coding making it so that what is in it's spot not only slows down if multi-targeting, but also making it so that it ignores Reflect. I'm not sure if you (FFMaster) discovered a fix to that yet or if there are any other problems that will pop up because of it.
4. The swords appearing during Draw Out techniques like Masamune. This isn't important or anything, but it gets rather...noticeable given how often Masamune & Kiyomori and just Draw Out in general is being used.
5. The Purple Palette is still seemingly unusable due to its crystals still randomly freezing the game if picked up apparently. Yeah....
Sandy EDIT: I forgot that Sand Storm wasn't working as it "should". That's been changed.
Cover Fire EDIT: Put "Cover Fire"'s formula not being correct in the Master Guide underneath the "Bugs" tab.
Battle Axe EDIT: Edited in Slasher's entry under things "everyone" agrees about.
Mythril Typos EDIT: "Platina Helmet" was supposed to be "Mythril Helmet" from the beginning. Similarly, as should have been fixed from the beginning, most if not all of the typos have been fixed. There were way too many as it was.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Gaignun on January 12, 2013, 10:21:11 pm
Quote from: The Damned"For Cover Fire, reducing the Y to 60 doesn't do much, just reduces damage by 10-30 points. I recommend changing it from (1...3)*(PA+70) to (1...6)*(PA+25)."
This change has already been made.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on January 12, 2013, 11:01:09 pm
(By already "been made", you mean decided upon for 139? Or it's supposed to be in 138?)
Because if it's the latter, then it's not noted in the Master Guide as such.
Similarly, I've gotten the impression that people still think it's too swingy, given teams like you're own. So, while this is more a discussion for the Balance thread, what should be the solution if that one has already been done?
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Dokurider on January 12, 2013, 11:34:08 pm
Balance - Ultima MP cost reduced to 20 - Dia is now stopped by Silence - Spellbreaker formula changed to MA*WP damage - Cover Fire formula changed to (1...6)*(PA+25) - Poison JP increased to 100 - All Geomancy becomes Enemy only - Meiton/Fuuton/Suiton Y reduced to 9 - Berserked units can now use reactions - Added Movement: Warpath - Adds 2 Brave on Move action, Monk base, 250 JP - Added Movement: Pilgrimage - Adds 2 Faith on Move action, Priest base, 250 JP
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on January 13, 2013, 12:34:13 am
(So noted and so edited.)
Anything else to be "fixed" with the compiled list?
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: reinoe on January 13, 2013, 04:37:24 pm
Also nobody seems to disagree with Battle AX's decapitate proc hitting for less than 85%. Setting it to do 55% HP seems fine. Still devastating, can still kill you. We won't have to see Equip Ax Priests one-shotting Knights anymore.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on January 15, 2013, 03:37:59 pm
(Okay.)
Forgot to say that I added that pretty much as soon as you said it, reinoe. I had wanted to wait until I fixed the typos in that post, which has been done now, so...yeah. So noted.
Anything else? (I'm currently forgetting something still, but I know it's a general "fix" with the Master Guide at least.)
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: reinoe on January 17, 2013, 02:59:49 am
I noticed it's been about a week now. Is there a chance we can get a peek at the 139 changes? Or maybe even a class and job change once per day so we can argue amongst each other about how good/bad the changes are will be? I know CCG's do that. Actually that might even be really cool.
<In the Booming voice of FFMASTER> Day 1: Here are the changes to Squire
Changes to Squire would be here.
Day 2: The changes to Chemist are held within!
Nothing here either. But you get the idea.
Day 16: Last but not least here is the new Class you've all been waiting for!
A bunch of stuff here
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: FFMaster on January 17, 2013, 03:50:45 am
Because there's nothing set in stone yet. I've been ironing out newly found bugs in the new system, and it's not going well, to say the least. Don't expect anything, but if you want something to debate about, here:
MIMES(if everything goes to plan) - Mimes lose all innates - Mimes lose a ton of stats across the board - Mimes can now equip all equipment except for weapons - Mimes can now equip RSM
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Dokurider on January 17, 2013, 04:38:27 am
Lore spam here I come!
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Malroth on January 17, 2013, 04:44:49 am
I love this change too bad we can't give them secondaries but the presence of Magic attack up, teleporting, Counter magic Mimes has me looking forward to the future.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: FFMaster on January 17, 2013, 05:01:03 am
Update: The item attribute extend hack works, but there are some very odd display issues. I've managed to track them down and will fix them soon. However, a major problem with this hack is that you will not be able to open the ISO in FFTPatcher.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: reinoe on January 17, 2013, 05:14:43 am
Quote from: FFMaster on January 17, 2013, 03:50:45 am Because there's nothing set in stone yet. I've been ironing out newly found bugs in the new system, and it's not going well, to say the least. Don't expect anything, but if you want something to debate about, here:
MIMES(if everything goes to plan) - Mimes lose all innates - Mimes lose a ton of stats across the board - Mimes can now equip all equipment except for weapons - Mimes can now equip RSM
"Except Weapons" So Mimes can equip shields? Seconding what Dokurider says. Short Circuit is no longer going to be unique in what it does. Also does this mean that Mimes are going to have a JP cap of 3000?
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: FFMaster on January 17, 2013, 05:25:03 am
It is also possible to give them a secondary skillset if people want. Considering they can get RSM, yes, they will need to have the JP cap.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on January 17, 2013, 08:29:32 pm
(Hunh, I was just "thinking" of Mimes due to how horribly one performed this morning.)
Them being able to use equipment and RSMs would make them finally useful. This is good because with the actual Mimic skill being so...not guaranteed due to whatever, I was about to come here and suggest we just replace them with Blue Mages, who would actually work 100% of the time.
*remains skeptic about whether this will work given everything else that's going on, especially with the Lore spam thing that Dokurider pointed out*
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Dokurider on January 17, 2013, 08:57:33 pm
See, I like that Mimes are finally getting equips and RSMs, and I'll support it regardless, it's just it's interaction with Lore is going to be dominating, but trying to stop is difficult to say the least You can't really nerf the damage, CT or anything about the spells or it'll only be useful with Mime Lore. So my suggestion is this: Make the lores Double Elemental. Shadow Shade would be Dark/Ice for an example. This would allow for easier blocking of Lores without destroying their damage output.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on January 17, 2013, 10:57:35 pm
(*is about to go for a walk, but figures he might as well respond to this given how much time he's wasted anyway*)
Sure, that might help a bit, but it probably wouldn't help enough or in the way you think. Even if all Lores became dual-elemental, making them easier to absorb (or halve or null) would still do little to abate the "Lore-Mime"-dominated metagame 139 would quickly become. I mean, at present, due to the way most elemental stuff works, outside of Thief Hat & White Robe, all non-Strengthening elemental equipment affects at most two elements. That means that even if the elements were all of dualities that weren't both absorbed by the same piece of equipment, i.e. your Ice & Dark suggestion, it wouldn't change much. It would just mean there are both now more ways for a Lore-Mime team to absorb coming into a fight and yet that those options would still be limited enough to not really affect the overbearing focus such teams will force the metagame to have.
After all, not every team absorbs any element.
*points to shitty new "Save the Last Dance" team, however flawed*
Similarly, even if every team had at least one member that absorbed the appropriate element, that would still mean the others would be completely fucked, especially if they had high Faith. It would basically be as one-sided as Angelus's "match" against Pride in the mono-class tournament.
I know I've said in jest that I'm usually against "simpler" solutions, but to me, there's really no reason that we can't take the far simpler solution and just make it so that Lores can't be Mimicked. Hell, FFTPatcher comes with a toggle for that and everything and it would be easy to note in the Master Guide.
Then again, Mimes essentially destroying the metagame would enhance my argument for getting rid of them, especially if it remains that no one has found why the hell they randomly fail Mimics a lot of the time, which I doubt FFMaster's great hack would fix.
So, for once, something is "win-win" for me. (Which of course means that something else will go horribly wrong as compensation.)
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: FFMaster on January 18, 2013, 03:38:19 am
What do you mean by Mimic failing? Do they just not mimic or does the "Mimic failed" message appear?
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on January 18, 2013, 05:15:34 am
(And we're back.)
Of all the damn things to happen at that time, that of course had to. Ugh.
They will just spontaneously not mimic at times, even if it's the same move that they've literally just mimicked several times in succession and that has no chance of failing, like say the wonderful 100% move that is Quickening. The game will just "skip" their turn to mimic and go on to the normal CT resolution. There's no "Mimic failed" message, since that doesn't even appear for things that are genuinely impossible, like the Mime trying to target something off the map, which it will do, but just fail at.
This is the Mime doing literally nothing at times despite all actions by its allies, at present, being valid targets of Mimicry and it doing nothing inconsistently & at random with seemingly no rhyme or reason to it.
Like I said before, as far as I've know, no one has looked into why this happens even though I'm fairly sure it's been happening since all the way back in vanilla. It's just a lot more noticeable here due to the focus of ARENA on battle, Mimes being a lot more readily accessible without having to grind for class levels and the AI being in control, meaning we can sit back and watch rather than have to actively contemplate decisions.
Shrug.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: CT5Holy on January 18, 2013, 01:00:35 pm
Yeah, I've definitely seen that happen before. Most noticeable with Sing/Dance since everyone pairs Mimes with Sing/Dance and because they go off multiple times in a given fight.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: FFMaster on January 18, 2013, 05:12:09 pm
Are you sure that this has happened in vanilla before Damned? I've been testing for ages now and still no failure.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: reinoe on January 18, 2013, 09:47:05 pm
I know I've seen it before. I even vaguely remember the fight. It was a song or dance and a mime just didn't mimic it. There's one instance where I know it happened. I'll go find the video.
EDIT: Found it. Watch from 12:45-->13:00. Thanks to TheDamned's notoriously awful luck to get two examples in one 15 second sequence. Reminds me of Seina Yamada from Tenchi Muyo GXP. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCsdOCdCPww&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Reks on January 18, 2013, 10:45:35 pm
The Mime's occasional Mimic fail is even on the FF Wiki for them. They just fail to copy now and then.
EDIT: Direct Quote from it- "There is also a small chance the Mime will fail to mimic."
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: FFMaster on January 18, 2013, 11:00:26 pm
Ok, the Mime at least did an animation, which means that the game knows it should be doing something, but then skips the Mimic action. I'll give a shot at fixing it.
I have no idea what I'm doing right now, and giving it up as a bad job until we have more information when a Mimic will fail.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on January 19, 2013, 12:27:39 am
(So...I can haz Blue Mage?)
...By Odin's beard, I feel dirty just putting that down.
First, last and only time I'm ever referencing that meme. Damn cats.
But, yeah, thanks for at least trying to look into it. That's more than anyone has done to my knowledge despite the class being from vanilla.
I'd look it at myself but I have the whole "sucks at coding" thing going on. So....
Quote from: reinoe on January 18, 2013, 09:47:05 pmEDIT: Found it. Watch from 12:45-->13:00. Thanks to TheDamned's notoriously awful luck to get two examples in one 15 second sequence. Reminds me of Seina Yamada from Tenchi Muyo GXP. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCsdOCdCPww&feature=youtu.be
...Of course I would be the best example of this even before Otabo slaughtered that very team last night.
Film at 11...PST.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Eternal on January 19, 2013, 12:44:59 am
Man, I thought I was a walking jinx, but poor Damned takes the proverbial cake.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: reinoe on January 19, 2013, 09:48:38 am
More Mime fail at 6:03, although the match was already over.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: FFMaster on January 19, 2013, 04:28:52 pm
That one is easily explainable reinoe. Mime will fail since the Mime was facing the edge of the map, and so will try to target a wave fist off the map. The sing/dance ones are the problem though.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: FFMaster on January 21, 2013, 12:05:33 am
Update:
Item attribute system is fully functional, with a few very minor display bugs in Item List (when you go Equip > List) regarding status stuff. Fixed the Goblin portrait for Mime. Decided that Mimes will not have a secondary even though they can equip one. Will cause too many balance issues there. Druid stats are currently: Male
HP - 144 MP - 72 PA - 8 MA - 8 Speed - 8
Female
HP - 135 MP - 77 PA - 6 MA - 10 Speed - 8
I will try them out with 4 Move initially. Move -1 will be moved to Druid to compensate slightly. Jump will also be 4. Evasion will be 15%. They will have all of Scholars old Equips, except clothes.
I am liking the idea of making the Lores dual element if they become too strong with the Mime buffs. So those may come up soonish.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on January 21, 2013, 02:40:12 pm
(Ugh. Of course my Internet goes out just as I'm replying to this and trying to upload videos last night/this morning. Of course.)
Good to know that you got some of the issues fixed.
Those stats for Druid look good, but then again, I'm rather horrible at those, so....
Also, I'm admittedly not sure how I feel about Druid getting Move -1, but if they're losing Equip Magegear, then they might not be too bloated between Move -1, Move=0, Distribute, Damage Split and now Inner Beast. Then again, I suppose Distribute or Damage Split could maybe move as well if there's a "need".
*looks at Mediator and then looks at Damage Split*
I have two questions though. Well, technically four, but only two of them are "important" and one is really just a "nagging" one:
1. Are Druids not getting Shields then (at present)?
2. Skill set-wise, how they are looking presently?
3. Did you fix the sprite glitch that Wiz identified (partly assuming that Druids are using the same sprites as Scholars in the first place) with regards to Scholar & Thief?
Decided that Mimes will not have a secondary even though they can equip one. Will cause too many balance issues there.
This is the fourth question, though it's more a set of inter-related questions: Is this option only being avoided because of balance issues rather than glitchy issues? I mean, avoiding the current "Why the hell is Mimicry being inconsistent" issue, the RSM & Secondary stuff works fine, right? Do Mimes mimic other Mimes' Secondaries?
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: FFMaster on January 21, 2013, 05:16:45 pm
1) Not at present. 2) They will probably have the exact skillset that was outlined originally. 3) That should have been fixed ages ago. 4)There is a special routine where Mimes cannot mimic each other. But a Mime with a secondary is still too strong imo. The Lore spam team being touted in this thread is an example of new Mimes already looking too strong. It can be very easy to just keep the Mime back using Move = 0 and also Lore spam, while Mimicing it as well.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on January 31, 2013, 08:15:41 pm
(Belated "I see".)
I still can't rememember it is that I forgot, but I want to post something that I just found out while "prepping" for one of formerdeathcorps's matches: Apparently, despite your fixing Oil to react to elemental weapon hits, Oil is not dispelled by said weapon hits. Unless, of course, the subject dies as it usually does 99% of the time due to the doubling of the damage.
I thought your hack had managed to fix that due to us both deciding to "fix" Oil lasting Dead by just having Dead cancel it like it does for 90% of other statuses, but...yeah, it doesn't. That could potentially be a "thing" regardless of what you want to happen with Oil, especially since I noticed by way of one of the few weapons affected by the status glitch you talked about, in this case an Ice Bow.
Aside from that, I concur with Gaignun's proposal in the Balance thread that giving us a "general" list of what you intend to change going into 139 as a whole right now would be for the best. Provided you have the time of course....
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Barren on January 31, 2013, 08:33:52 pm
FFM, I'm not sure if you saw my post about a faith proc gun Tetragrammation. But if you did, what do you think of it?
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Dokurider on February 04, 2013, 04:08:46 pm
One of my biggest problems with adding Haste is that it screws up timing unless you're very careful and even then, that relies on the other team giving you time to setup, which you can't always rely on. This is very important on teams with Mages on it, because they want to go last. So what I'd like to see in a staff is a Haste Immunity. Or add it to an existing accessory like Reflect Ring.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on February 07, 2013, 03:17:20 am
(I could actually get behind that, even if I'm not sure if it's totally "necessary".)
So...the more I think about it, the more that the realization that Cursed Ring for some reason guarantees revival on the fourth turn 100% of the time rather than a mere 50% makes it even clearer to me that Quickening needs to die.
Quickening literally adds nothing substance to ARENA and becomes even more brain-dead when used with inevitable resurrection like Phoenix Blade or Cursed Ring or, hell, even just Dragon Spirit (or HP Restore) with Warpath (or Pilgrimage). If anything, then beyond the brain-dead aspect of it, Quickening also devalues several other abilities that would otherwise would be more than decent if it wasn't around: Speed Ruin, Cheer Song, Last Song, Speed Save, etc.
There's really very little reason to use any of those at present with Quickening around, especially when Quickening's just going to get more MP to feed off with the likely changes coming to Clothes. When combined with that and the Headbands maybe becoming mass-use via Equip Clothing or something, not even dedicated stuff like Seal Evil or Consecration is going to keep an Undead Quickening user "down"; before you claim that breaks are a solution, Maintenance answers that, especially since Gold Armor blocks both Petrify & Dead and Monks are already great users of Cursed Ring.
Between that and the fact that Dokurider figured out how to manipulate the normally stupid AI into using the damn thing, it really just seems like it's run its (unwelcome) course finally. Kudos to Dokurider for figuring out how to manipulate AI into using it considering it's been more than a year since it's been around and no one (publicly) figured it out.
So, yes, FFMaster, I know you said to try to come a compromise, but I would implore you to please just kill off Quickening already, especially since there's really been no valid counterarguments for it staying around at present. I mean, if we are admitting that Speed is so important that Sprint Shoes is declared good by literally adding only +1 Speed off the bat, then how is Quickening anywhere near balanced if you get at least one Sprint Shoes worth for free almost every time?
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Dokurider on February 07, 2013, 05:05:41 am
Oh you poor fool, if you're sick of Quickening now...
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: reinoe on February 10, 2013, 01:05:07 am
I was looking back at some old videos for inspiration. Like page 59 of the AI VIDEOS thread.
Anyway I ran across this gem...
Avalanche...
QuoteYes i didnt want to say that magic-guns are to strong. I just think that using those guns are to strong with abilities that use Wp in their formular. Because in those cases, as far as i understand it, they dont care of the actual Formular of the Guns, just for the Wp. And Guns have the highest Wp, eventhough their Wp, eventhough their normal-dmg is not so high. --> this is what i mean with discrepancy between actual dmg. and Wp. (which is fine).
Hope its clear what i mean.
Barren...
QuoteI hear you, like even at 40 brave you can do over 200 damage with Kagesougi with a blaze gun like SSM's Archer. If you still feel that Magical Gun WP should be nerfed you can post that in the final check on bugs for the tournament topic. FFMaster is planning at some point to release 1.38 with the proposed changes anyways before we get underway with the tournament.
Lol at Magic Guns being O.P. for the entirety of 1.37 and 1.38. First it was because they could be combined with Kagesougi. Now it's because of their raw damage.
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: Malroth on February 11, 2013, 05:03:15 am
I say give quickening a 8 CT casting time that way by the time they top 13 speed they'll stop using it
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on February 12, 2013, 05:51:19 am
(That would be better, but I'd rather just have Quickening die, especially since 13 Speed without having to really sacrifice anything is still rather "overpowered".)
Before I forget and "really" leave, two quick things to comment:
1. Bullrush and most likely Counter Tackle seem to be unavoidable instead of actually taking P-EV as the Master Guide says they should. I'm...actually kind of fine with this given Bullrush damages the self. Still, it might end up being too much, which is part of the reason I'm mentioning it.
2. It would seem that Masamune the katana is casting Dispel Magic 100% of the time rather than 50% of it from what I've seen of it, which is surprisingly a lot of as late. I'm beginning to think that the general variation formula for procs is what's awry here given all the other proc issues, but I personally have no way of checking that, so....
I'm still annoyed that I can't remember the one general thing that I know is still missing from that list. Hmm....
Title: Re: 139 changes
Post by: The Damned on February 25, 2013, 05:37:46 pm
(Ugh. I hate "double posting" even if it's been two weeks.)
Regardless, this post is an addendum to the above anyway. Bullrush and, by extension, Counter Tackle are avoidable. I just have yet to see them miss as with Mage Masher apparently since Dokurider said I was wrong about being 100% accidentally. With that said, I'm now unsure if I would prefer it being unavoidable considering, even or perhaps especially if Counter Tackle changes....
Aside from that, if you have the time on top of everything else, FFMaster, then can you please change the start positions on Bervenia Volcano to be on opposing shores?