Final Fantasy Hacktics

Did no one read Samuraiblackbelt's post, or has this thread turned into a troll thread?

BTW, under the eastern zodiac, I'd be a Virgo.

I actually prefer this new format and wish to keep it this way. [/puts up shield]

Remember, this is not the story of Ramza as told through the mouths of the Ivalician people. This is the story of Ramza as told through the lips of Arazlam J. Durai. And what did Arazlam think of Ramza?

Noble -> Mercenary -> Mercenary -> Hero

Quote from: "Kill_Bones"TBH YuGiOh was doomed the second '4kids' got ahold of it.

So... it was doomed the moment the Anime came out in English? Erm...

This is thread to start testing for an improved FFT build for PVP tournament use. I need testers who aren't afraid to totally tear this game apart for the sake of this mission.

ROM is vanilla, no changes.
Nothing is banned. (EDIT: Since people want to troll, 4 generics, level 1. Not a ban, just common sense.)
First 8 teams posted in this thread will be taken for random rounds against one another (about 3 for each team).
I'll post the results, and then we can go from there.
You're free to join in and run some of the matches yourselves to make things go faster, but it's not required. I'll just run more if I need more verification.

Oh, and try not to hold anything back, okay?

Question 1
Should we have 3 move monsters(Chocobos, Goblins, etc in vanilla) or seperate moveset monsters(Ultima Demons, Apandas, Worker 8 )? Seperate moveset monsters will mean the removal of Monster Skill and Monster Talk.
[] - 3 move monsters
[X] - seperate moveset

Question 2
Should monsters be able to equip Weapons/Armor/Accessories?
[] - Yes, to all equipment
[] - Yes, Armor and Accessories only
[] - Yes, Weapons and Armor only
[] - Yes, Weapons and Accessories only
[] - Yes, Weapons only
[] - Yes, Armor only
[X] - Yes, Accessories only
[] - No

Question 3
Should monsters be able to equip a different secondary?
[] - Yes, using the human generic abilities
[] - Yes, using a special list of secondaries for monsters
[] - No
[X] - Yes, but it should be fixed for each monster class.

Question 4
Should monsters be able to equip different reactions?
[] - Yes
[X] - No, reactions are set like 1.3
[] - No, only reaction they get is Counter

Question 5
Should monsters be able to equip different supports?
[] - Yes
[] - Yes, but only Attack Up/Defense Up/Magic Attack Up/Magic Defense Up
[X] - No

Question 6
Should monsters be able to equip different movements?
[] - Yes
[X] - No

Question 7
Should monsters be limited to 2 monster classes per team?
[X] - Yes (What Skip said, though)
[] - No

Basically, monsters should be like "loadouts" to the generic classes - standard, powerful units ready to use right out of the box, that provide a specific utility to teams. They should not be able to stand alone, so a whole team of them cannot be made effectively. Also, due to the use of generic secondaries, the same-skill rule applies - i.e. Assume Mindflayers are given geomancy secondary - you cannot then have a Mindflayer and 2 Geomancers on your team.

I'm in.

No, you're just pitted randomly with whomever else wants to participate.

Guys, these discussions should all go in the Stats/Abilities Discussion Thread; otherwise theres no reason to have it and it should just be consolidated with the other discussion threads into a master guide if people are just going to start new threads for these subjects anyways.

They're all blank slots.

I didn't say move+x would be too powerful. I said they would be overused, because they outclass every other movement ability by a huge margin. Only way the others are going to see any light from a competitive standpoint is to make them the only choice you've got, IMHO.

Honestly, 2 move doesn't bother me, but if you really want it movement can go back to 3 move. It's up to FFMaster, I'm not calling this one. Regardless, though, move+x should not come back.

It prevents their Nameless Dances from failing more often, unless I'm mistaken about how other statuses stack over Sleep. (which is to say, they don't)

It's just beta; you'll get another chance.

BTW, a more appropriate name for it would be "Blur". <_<

Quote from: "Zodiac"I'm seeing a lot of unbalanced items. Seriously you can't give shit WP to a weapon just because it has 25% chance to cast a motherfucking weak spell.
What the fuck is up with 2 Move!?!? Archers and mages will just fucking burn the map to the ground. Unless the other team has a squire/thief/ninja...
I thought we were supposed to balance jobs with a tournament in mind. Currently all I see is the shitty vanilla setup which consists of wasting JP in unlocking other jobs to get the one you want. Why can't we see something new?
Oh, and now you're going to start a tournament with a not-nearly finished product? wtf?
- There are still unavailable skills because of JP cap (lolololol)
- No monsters
- Why the 1 Ninja/Mime limitation? Just nerf Ninja and mime is only for hardcore players because they can just destroy your own team.

I'm not buying this shit, sorry.

You wanna talk shit? Fine, let's talk shit.

• All WP was dropped. You were the one who said to do that instead of fucking around with the Fury constant.
• I have no intention of bringing everything up at this time, just allowing classes to have around 3-5 choices per equipment slot, period.
• That third comment is stupid. Isn't Archer/Mage/Squire/Thief/Ninja pretty much everyone? Who's missing? Mediator? They have magic guns. Bard/Dancer/Scholar? They don't need to move out, really. Geomancer has elemental, Lancer has jump... only Knight and Samurai are left out, and they still have the better HP/skillset in the game, anyways.
  Also, FFM, I don't remember you disagreeing with 2/3 move. I remember PX disagreeing, but not you.
• It's a beta tournament to test out the ideas. Just testing random shit for balance without getting a grip on what people will ACTUALLY USE NOW doesn't do anything.
• Two Ninja/Mime can only be shit or broken, I'm sorry.

FFMaster is the host of this tournament. Please PM him with your completed teams, and make sure that all JP costs are correct before submitting!
Timer til deadline

TOURNAMENT FORMAT:
3(maybe more if more people join) Swiss rounds(1 battle). Top 4 will enter single elimination(best 2 of 3).
Initial bracket placement will be randomized by http://davidpeter.me/misc/bracket/
During the Swiss rounds, you may not fight the same person more than once.
Map will be randomly selected from a large pool of maps, based on rounds. (First round, a small map will be selected; second round, a large map; and third round, a medium-sized map)
At least one map will occur at night and/or during a rainstorm/snowstorm.
In terms of unit placement, Unit 1 will always be closest to a higher panel or, if there isn't one, closest to the front of the team. The opposite can be said for Unit 4.

RULES:

• Teams will consist of 4 generic humans at Level 35, controlled by enemy AI routines.
• Fury and Faith range is between 40 and 70. Minimum Fury for the party must be 200; minimum faith must be 220.
• Each unit has 3000 JP to spend on various abilities. It costs 250 JP to unlock ANY job.(includes Squire/Chemist)
• As an addendum to the above, Elemental can be wholly purchased for just 600 JP.
• Only two units can buy any individual ability. Innates do not count towards this. (i.e. four units could have the Punch Art skillset, but only two could have purchased Earth Slash; conversely, you can have two Chemists and a Knight with Throw Item)
• Only two units can equip any individual item.

REFERENCES:
Classes/Skillsets
Item List

PLAYERS
PX_Timefordeath - Ⓕⓡⓞⓖⓢ, Ⓔⓨⓔ ⓜⓤⓢⓣ ⓕⓡⓔⓔⓩⓔ ⓣⓗⓔⓜ.
logus
Pride
Kaz
The Damned
Zaen
Barren
philsov
Skip Sandwich
CT5Holy
Melancthon
BaitySM

REGISTRATION FORMAT:
When sending teams to FFMaster, you must use the following format without any additional text:

FFM EDIT - use this layout
Name:
Gender:
Zodiac:
Fury:
Faith:
Primary Class:
Primary abilities known:
Secondary:
Second abilities known:
Reaction:
Support:
Movement:
~~~
Right Hand:
Left Hand:
Head:
Body:
Accessory:

• All fields are case-insensitive. (You'll probably want to capitalize names, though)
• Name can only be a maximum of 16 characters.
• Sex is male or female ONLY.
• Skillset action abilities have no limit on writing style, though the briefer yet more understandable it is, the better. Refrain from writing JP costs, though.
• Leave any blank slots empty. DO NOT write "blank", "---", etc.
• Don't forget proper spelling. Whilst it will probably be corrected when recieved, it saves FFM a bit of a headache. For example, Magic AttackUP is "Magic Attack UP", Move HP UP is "Move-HP UP", H-Bag is "H Bag", etc.

Ninja will get 2 Swords back.
Mime's HP Multiplier will be increased to 255.
100% hit on Focus was intentional, since the damage boost is rather small now. The animation and A.I. will be tweaked, though.
Initial: Haste on Carabini was an experiment. It will return to +1 PA.
Remedy healing chicken was agreed upon (even if you were joking), but if you disagree with it we can remove that.

I have returned from my 6-hour visit to a friend's house.

The Damned:
So aside from some very good points, we're in agreement on this? BTW, unless some balancing is done Hydras will probably stay banned, and regular Dragons absorb thunder, not fire. (Only Red Dragon absorbs fire)

My idea for monsters (though I don't plan to implement it quite yet) is to make them like Worker 8 or Byblos - humans with monster sprites and incapability of switching jobs - which would potentially allow palette swapping if someone's willing to rig that. They'd have the best combination of powers within their family line without stepping into broken territory, and like in ASM'd would probably bear some resistance to certain statuses. (but not too many) But first, I'll need to actually write down my plans to work them out.

I'd like to hear your ideas, as well, so I can hopefully incorporate some of them.

FFMaster:
Yeah, as mentioned I haven't actually removed changes to Draw Out and Elemental made by Philsov. I'll be sure to ask him about it. In the meantime, make due or try testing other things.

Good morning, everyone. I will address both posts simultaneously.

FFMaster

• Summons are NOT supposed to hit allies. It is a change Philsov made that I overlooked, and I intend to fix it.
• I ran some calcs, and I'm getting 203 maximum damage, assuming 40 is the base constant (which PX says is still too much). To get close to 241, the constant would have to be base 50, which is WAY too much. Or am I missing something?
  I digress though - I don't want to, but I will probably be taking away the +speed on daggers. (It means that aside from effects, daggers and ninja swords are pretty same-y and either one may as well be the other) Ninja and Thief will cap at 10 speed, which is even less damage at constant 40... 169 (A single point above your calc, minus the Fury hack). Also, Rubber Costume lost +move while you weren't looking, so no range shenanigans. (<_<)
• That does bring up the issue of mages having more durability overall and being more risk free. 40 Base constant means they take even less damage than what you were getting. (assuming the constant was the problem) So I will probably increase spell charge times, and raise WP across the board to compensate.
• The only change I made to job growths were Squire and Mime. Thief and Ninja got lower mults, and nothing else was changed by me. Any "changes" otherwise are ASM'd changes, so you'll just have to adjust to them. It's interesting, too... I took another look, and HP growth was increased for most units. That explains why even though I lowered HP/MP raises for all armours, you're still getting a 521 HP Lancer. =/

The Damned

• Lowered movement: It must be noted that for the most part, accessory and equipment changes dealing with movement are similar (if not the same) to ASM'd implementation. Personally, I trust Philsov's decisions with these, and again, testing may prove otherwise. (FFMaster and I will have to make more tests)
• Equip X: Good.
• Daggers: I know what you meant. To me, that's just the disadvantage of using Death Sentence - you can't just thrown it on a glass cannon team now to get over a troublesome foe. You need to be able to keep the pressure off until the clock strikes down, and that requires team-building which I see as a good thing. Also, thank you for reminding me that 100% status means PA*WP formula, but in the end I may still keep 25% Death Sentence.
• Flails: Two-Sworded Attack UP Flails actually do roughly the same damage as Two-Sworded Concentrate Spell Edges (even assuming 12 Speed; maybe slightly more at 10 speed), so I don't see the issue here, either.
• Guns: MA+1 so that it's more useful to everyone on that job tree. Chemist may still run MA-reliant abilities like Talk Skill or Haste, and I wanted to give them something related to encourage its use. 25% Slow, believe it or not, is not THAT useful given its low reliability. But alas, after talking to PX about it, using Dmg_[Weapon] may lead to glitching, so I'll need to make changes anyways. They'll probably be +2 MA instead.
• Crossbows: Personally, I like Crossbow Proc, and again 25% isn't that reliable. You're basically getting about 25% more damage off Hunting Bow than Gastrafitis 25% of the time. It means that it's overall weaker, but will probably K.O a unit in a pinch.
• Bags: I'm thinking, it won't. Probably only Time Mage would still want it.
• Cloths: Okay.
• Throwables: That's the point, though. In exchange for lacking team synergy, Ice is also harder to block offensively (as is Water, if you'll take another look at Magic Ring...) There needs to be a few elements you can't build your team around or punish too effectively, otherwise nothing elemental will probably be used. In my mind, that makes the two side of the coin roughly even. And you're wrong about fire monsters - for the tourney, there's only really Bomb, Grenade, and Minitaurus.
• Hats: You'll be surprised to find I went with 20 HP when you weren't looking (BTW, I keep asking PX to update the first post, but he doesn't. Look at MY post for updates)
• Misc: Okay.
• We'll see about nerfing Always: Regen...

EDIT:

Quote from: "philsov"Haste lasts for 26 ticks in this patch, which is infact halfway between the vanilla value and 1.3, but that's a cool coincedence since 26 was derived from some math.

The patcher file appears to have the correct values, so please let me know if this value is actually too high.

ASM:

• The lowered movement ranges WILL be used until testing shows that they are detrimental. My own testing has shown otherwise, but I'd like a second opinion first.
• Flails are still 100% hit by virtue of using physical gun formula. (they're 100% hit by default)
• They complicate balancing more. Most of the equipment changes I made to give multiple options per slot, per class. Except in a few cases like swords and crossbows, Equip X abilities were ignored. Allowing armored classes to equip clothes, for instance, may open a whole can of worms I'm not prepared for at the moment. (Again, it's pending)
• I figured Vanish would enable thieves to still have 100% attacks; it would just cost them every other turn. But if the A.I. is very crazy when using Transparent, I might forgo using Transparent altogether outside of Elf Mantle. Speed reduction still stays, though, especially since we're not following the ASM'd philosphy of "no +speed outside head+accessory".
• We will see if Fury becomes an issue soon enough.

Items:

• Point noted about other equips, though only some missing Accessories need to be filled in... if a weapon isn't listed, it either isn't usable or we're leaving it garbage. I have no intent of balancing everything...
• Daggers: Zorlin Shape did indeed get merged with Air Knife. Assassin Dagger could get 100% poison, perhaps, but I don't see the A.I. being "idiotic" outside of using Death Sentence on an unit with Reraise. To me, that's just Meta (that is, it's just what comes with countering something)
• Ninja Swords: Hidden Knife might get removed, or given just Initial: Transparent. Whichever.
• Swords: Blood Sword will not be usable with Two-Swords, and I will make that note. Might even get a drop to 9 WP, but I wanted it to at least be an attractive option. BTW, Ancient Sword got switched back to 25% Don't Move when you weren't looking... <_<
• Knight Swords: Good.
• Katana: I was trying to avoid throwing procs around everywhere, and instead give weapons meaningful differences. They're only 25% chance, afterall. Most players will ignore them unless they happen to be the strongest neutral weapon available. For now, these will have to do, but I'm hoping for better ideas to come around.
• Axes: It is nice, isn't it?
• Rods: Good.
• Staves: Yeah, that's kinda the point.
• Flails: What's wrong with 100% hit on Flails, anyways? They're flat damage and barely break half the damage of Knights, Monks, or Ninjas... in exchange for being more reliable. I could just make them non-Two-Swordsable, if that's what you're worried about...
• Guns: It seems necessary to me, otherwise it looks REALLY plain next to the magic guns.
• Crossbows: 1.3 Gastrafitis with the same WP wasn't really an issue. Could you provide examples of what you mean?
• Bows: Good.
• Harps: Good.
• Books: Noted. They will be switched around.
• Spears: 0-Range was so that it could only be used for Jump and Throw. But I read afterwards in this thread that it doesn't work... I think it was YOU you said it... maybe not. But in any case, it got changed when you weren't looking.
• Sticks: PX pointed out that with the necessary formula, Cancel: Frog meant that Octagon Rod had to be physical (PA*WP). So yeah, it got changed to 25% Add Frog instead. A worthwhile proc that only Oracle can use. (Still channeling what I said about procs, too... take note)
• Bags: First of all, if you're talking about my Time Mage, she is not using P-Bag and doesn't even have Regen... my Knight does. So we'll get to Light Robe in a bit. Secondly, so long as Light Robe exists (regardless), Always: Regen costing a mage their weapon slot is fine, since to make the trick work they have to forgo useful weapons, and then choose between squishiness and fast casting or durability and no short-charge. (read: 3rdOracle was using THIEVES, man. They're getting nerfed.) But again, if you have other examples, please tell me.
• Cloths: I'm just copying PX here, really. 1 WP wouldn't hurt, but we'll see.
• Throwables: I find that ironic when fire teams still have better synergy all-around. Not to mention there aren't that many water-elemental attacks going around to begin with. (No, Masamune doesn't count - it heals) But I'll think about it.
• Shields: Good.
• Helmets: Good.
• Hats: Left that last line in their on accident; it was removed when you weren't looking. As for Ribbon, I didn't want it to be 0/0... whenever I saw that, I didn't want to use it at all because even with fury hack, a mage with no hp boost is still pretty squishy. But perhaps 40 HP is a better choice, in that case...
• Armor: I'm fine with these.
• Clothes: Nah, I guess not. it's just how Rubber Costume is. It could lose +1 Move and gain Cancel: Don't move, which Rubber Shoes lost.
• Robes: Dark abilities include Demi/2, Lich, Death, Gravi2, Kotetsu, Life Drain, Slasher's Axe Proc, and Yagyu Darkness. But I actually re-read the mechanics guide and it seems I did make a critical error - elemental weakness does not affect success rate (which was what I was thinking of), so outside Kotetsu and Yagyu Darkness, all of these would be rather dubious. I'm keeping it, just to make these usable, but I will think about another way to nerf it that makes sense.
• Accessories: Yeah, I noticed that about Feather Mantle right after I made that decision. (>_<) Feather Boots will be getting a boost, most likely. As for the Float spell... well, you win some, you lose some. (at least it has AOE)
• Misc: Draw Out currently does not discriminate.

Hope to hear more.