Zodiac Stones after end-game?

[LastingDawn]

Alright, I'm going back to before the retcon of the game since this is what the conclusion I got after playing numerous times. What happened to the # (a couple of stones are optional) holy stones at the end? Well before I tell you what I think, there are a few things that I will need to say so that you understand the conclusion I came to.

Well, for me... I always though that it was the combine power of the holy stones who send Ramza and Alma out of that death trap at the end of the game and back to Ivalice soil. The reason for me to think of this is because I believe that the stones are neither good nor evil, simply which the holy stone reacts to those possessing them. If the stones are evil, then why was Malak revived by one of them? Here is something interesting to think about. When Malak was revived, he says something along these lines. The stone said, return to those of the right mind (PSX version). If I am not mistaken, I think there are some cultures (Asian?) that associate the mind with the soul. I can't find the source at the moment to back me up, but I will try to look for it after posting all this. Synonym for "right".

Synonyms: just, proper, fair, moral, honorable, upright, righteous, acceptable, justified, nondiscriminatory.
Synonyms: appropriate, respectable, suitable, fitting, proper, desirable, best, reasonable, suited, decent.

Source: http://encarta.msn.com/thesaurus_561586369/right.html

Now the question, why did the holy stone(s) decided to save Ramza in the end? Well, Ramza possesses the stone(s) and yet... never used them in any shape or form. He could have used them to make a or many "miracle(s)" (like turn himself into a unstoppable god-like being or transform into a being like a Lucavi, resurrect his dead father or others to assist him, etc) during his quest and force his way around the world of Ivalice with the stone(s) powers in hand. Draclau says something interesting about this. In terms of gameplay, that would plainly suck. Yet, he didn't use them. Ramza ended up doing everything with his own power and not the stone(s), so he didn't receive any help from Lucavi nor God through the stones. If my memory serves me right, Ramza says something to Wiegraf about using the power of the holy stone and not his own power. I think it was near the end of chapter 3. Anyways, I strongly think that the stone were impressed by Ramza using his own power and not that of the holy stones to achieve his goal (saving Alma and at the same time saving the world), all the while having the stones in his possession and not once thinking about using them. As well that he slayed numerous Lucavis, a feats that is not quite simple. The stones decided to save them or grant them an unexpected gift. There are numerous myths revolving around supernatural being granting gift to mortals after performing extraordinary feats.

You're probably wondering why I only mention Ramza and Alma right. The reason for this is because that you can dismiss special characters and they can permanently die and it does not affect the game story except for their entry on their Profiles. So, they can be considers special generics. If they live or die, it's all up to the player. All special characters are icing on the cake, nothing more or less. They don't impact much on game story after joining. The Ramza and Alma only survived is based on the conclusion of the ending movie. If the others have survived, why wasn't they showed? If they went their separate ways, why wasn't such a scene showed? Etc... there are too many unanswered question, but I highly think that the game ending, but in actually, the whole chapter 4 was rush to be completed, but that is for another thread that I might write about.

In conclusion, the stone saved Ramza and Alma or all your rooster (for those that don't like the only Ramza and Alma thing), all the while the stones remains buried deep within the now unreachable Murond Death City where no mortal could ever recover the holy stone and used it's powers. Remember, Rofel destroyed the entrance to Murond Death City. So, nobody can enter or leave this place.

Very well written, I never thought about Ramza fully relying on his own power rather than the easily misused and corruptible Power of the Stones but that is a great argument you present. I wish I could say more than that but I can't really think of a way to improve upon it. However the Malak being revived, Ramza and Malak's speech after that is just nonsense, it makes next to no sense in the original version. War of the Lions makes it clear what's being discussed there.

"Marach (voice over): A voice called to me in that land of pure
white light, though whose it was I cannot say. "Return," it said to me. "Return
to the side of the valiant - the one whose heart beats true."

[Ramza picks up the Stone.]

Ramza: Another Zodiac Stone? But why would it be here?

Ramza (voice over): I'd thought auracite a product not of godly
fashion, but an issue of hands far fouler - a gateway of sorts for Lucavi into
our world

Marach (voice over): I know not by whose hands it came to be, but I do not
think its evil inherent. I believe it is the wielder gives its power shape."

I believe it is the Occuria who called Malak back to Ramza's side. It is strongly hinted that they were planned as early as FFT (At the bottom of the Book Storage the seal is adorned symbols with the Lucavi names encapsulated in a circle with four other names in a larger circle, Undine, Salamander, Gnomes, and Fairy, it is believed that its supposed to show that these four hold the Lucavi in check and its thought that these may be the proto-Occuria concept.

As for their thoughts on the stones, I have to say yes and no... Saying that it is the power which melds the person to the stone really isn't fair to the other characters in the story which are hinted to have been genuinely good people before they were corrupted.

Through Meliadoul and Izlude we can get glimpses of what a sane Vormav likely taught his children, and though it was still questionable at best it is much less malevolent than Hashmalum's way of things.

The Cardinal was said to be a hero in the Fifty Year War who happened upon the Scorpio Stone in Zelmonia, shortly after his wife was killed by fanatics and he changed. I believe that he may have wished upon the stone to bring his wife back, yet instead the stone turned him into Queklain. This wasn't by any unworthy motive, but because the stone was already possessed by Queklain, I believe a similar case occurred with Vormav.

We can guess that Elmdor was only taken by the stone by his dying breath as he didn't want to die (an ordinary thought for anyone). Dycedarg is an oddity... unlike the others he didn't lose himself when he became Adramelk, instead he still acts as if he is in complete control. I guess that just goes to show how powerful Dycedarg's will truly was that not only did he associate with the stone he managed to conquer the Lucavi within himself.  

What Ramza fails to take into account when he talks about the power of the stones is that it was a purified stone which brought Malak back (the Scorpio Stone which held Queklain) if it was not purified I am willing to bet it would have taken Rafa (if compatible) or would have done nothing at all.

[RandMuadDib]

The point about the scorpio stone being purified and thus willing to revive malak is a very interesting argument. I like it.

[Fenrir90]

Thank you for the reply LastingDawn, I like a lot of your points that you highlight out and mentioned. But there are some things that I am not familiar with like this Occuria. Going to have to google that a little later along with the magic circle. Is that the same circle as the one from the loading screen or that Arena battlefield? Malak's revival scene is definitely better worded in PSP. But still, Heart=Mind=Soul. I won't argue with you, because you made lots of good points.

Okay, about the stones. After re-reading my paragraph, I did not fully go into details about the stones due I was afraid I would run out of space to write (don't know if there is a character limit to post per post) and I couldn't post my post. It happens in some forums once in a while were I can't post and I am not using this as my excuse here. Impartial thoughts are still impartial thoughts. Truthfully, I was going to write a little bit more to complete my though on the stones. But I can't get the "stone being purified of my mind" which is making me re-think the whole thing. It never cross my mind, I thought it was the Lucavi (from within the stone) speaking to Malak. Of course, my post was made solely base on the PSX version (never played FFXII or Revenant Wings).

Off topic sort of, where did you find the info about the magic circle, this is the first I've heard about "Undine, Salamander, Gnomes, and Fairy (mistranslation of Sylph maybe?)" written on them. I mean, I knew that all 12 of the Lucavi names were written on them in the old tongue. I also know about Paracelsus (those four elementals). If you have the source, could you provide me with the link? I would like to read more about that if it's not too much trouble.

[LastingDawn]

Ah, the Occuria are basically the "real" gods of Ivalice, they call themselves "Histories Stewards" and try to subtly influence events. In FFXII the Lucavi's storylines are greatly expanded, apparently they weren't always known as Lucavi (Deceivers in Russian) but in FFXII they are called Espers, all they are renown for by that time is going against their creators (The Occuria) and failing spectacularly. Before they were Espers they were referred to as the Dark Scions alongside 11 Light Scions. (Ultima and Zodiak had no Dark or Light counterpart). Ultima, being tired of her role rebelled against the Occuria and all of the Dark Scions joined with her.

You can find much greater detailed info. in other places, I suggest finalfantasy.wikia.com, it has mostly reliable info.

I did a bit of searching on the forum and found it. This isn't the circle that appears in the opening FMV or the one in the Arena stage, but the one at the bottom of the Murond Book Storage, this shows this is in late development, because the names in it are only the Lucavi that are present in this game and the strange four names outside of the circle all together, with a nice little "The Nouth Ster" (The North Star) in the middle of it all.

http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=1106.0

There's the link to it.

[pokeytax]

I vote for the whole lot being dead. Olan implies that Orlandu hasn't shown up and there's no evidence anyone else has. Ramza and Alma can easily be explained as a vision or even poetic license on Alazlam's part. The final scene gains an extra twist of the knife, so to speak, if Ramza is dead due in part to Delita.

However, there's no evidence to contradict any other interpretation, and the most canonical ending is probably the stones/Occuria saving Ramza and Alma.

[Pierce]

My interpretation was always that the power of the stones saved Ramza and Alma (and maybe the rest of the party?) but only their souls. Their bodies died or whatever in the explosion, and they live on as the braves. So just like the original story of the Zodiac Braves, whenever people are in dire need, Ramza and the people who survived the explosion come to their aid.

[Zozma]

I always interpreted it as they all died there as well. Ramza had most of the stones with him, along with the stones ultima and hashmal had. so that would leave them which would destroy them all with that blast. I guess they COULD have been saved by the stones but then where did they go? I always thought of their last appearance as being "ghosts" of some sort. afterall would there really be any point in Ramza and Alma just completely vanishing without a trace after that point

and if the stones were "purified" there wouldnt necessarily be a reason to scatter them either. and i always assumed that a stone could be used again if fallen into the wrong hands. as you remember ultima says "no way! you're an encarnation of the one who killed me last time" or something,remember?

[RandMuadDib]

well them disappearing afterwards makes sense, if they did manage to survive. They were still branded heretics by the church, and so leaving the church's jurisdiction would make their lives a whole lot less complicated.

[Eternal]

There's suggestion in Tactics Ogre PSP that Orlandu moved over to that region, but it may just be a reference back to FFT.

[GeneralStrife]

Tactics ogre isnt a totally different game/dimension whatever the hell you wanna call it from FFT?

[Eternal]

We aren't entirely sure. It's very likely they've retconned it to be in the same world as Ivalice (but a different region), but there isn't really proof one way or the other.

[LastingDawn]

I always interpreted it as they all died there as well. Ramza had most of the stones with him, along with the stones ultima and hashmal had. so that would leave them which would destroy them all with that blast. I guess they COULD have been saved by the stones but then where did they go? I always thought of their last appearance as being "ghosts" of some sort. afterall would there really be any point in Ramza and Alma just completely vanishing without a trace after that point

and if the stones were "purified" there wouldnt necessarily be a reason to scatter them either. and i always assumed that a stone could be used again if fallen into the wrong hands. as you remember ultima says "no way! you're an encarnation of the one who killed me last time" or something,remember?

Even if they were purified though Ramza would have had no idea, he guesses that the stone can be used for good or evil, but I put forth the theory that Draclau's possible wish to bring back his departed wife (The Brave Story mentions him acting differently after her murder by fanatics) was no less worthy than Rafa wishing to bring back her fallen brother.

My thought on the stones nature is that the true Zodiac Braves likely fought and sealed the Lucavi within the stones, therefore they could act as a gateway for the appropriate Lucavi if the bearer could associate with it. Therefore the ones that had already had their weakened Lucavi (You know that they are not at their full strength from the discussion that Meliadoul and Ramza have regarding them after defeating Zalera) summoned would be sent back to where ever the Lucavi reside (It is mentioned that Addremalech is still in The Rift by Elmdor/Zalera and Vormav/Hasmalum). Ultima's words to Ramza have nothing to do with the nature of the stones.

GeneralStrife: At one time they may have been, but that line is blurred if not completely torn down now.  Tactics Ogre: LUCT has been officially mentioned by the translators to take place in about the same time as Vagrant Story, there are also other references to Vagrant Story throughout the game, most of the special moves are based on the Riskbreaks, it is likely that Valeria and Lodis likely exist a far distance away from FFT Ivalice but the world is still likely Ivalice. Recall the Age is Xytegenian, in Tactics Ogre:LUCT not the world.

[Pickle Girl Fanboy]

They're all dead.