Arena battle videos and discussion

[Andrew]

FFT Arena 1.39c: Galaxtia (Corosar - Black)  -=VS=-  Special Tactics and Reconnaissance (Lakitu673 - Green)

FFT Arena 1.39c: We Finally Have A Mime (Mudvayne - White)  -=VS=-  Fire Cross (ShadowDragon15 - Black)

FFT Arena 1.39c: Predictable Air Absorb Team (reinoe - Green)  -=VS=-  The Raven King (Rouroni Elmdor - Red)
(EDIT: Stall makes your mime go over the JP cap, Rouroni, as it's 300 JP instead of 100 JP like the memory card generator says.  I decided to give your mime Death Sentence instead.  I'm sorry if you wanted another Talk Skill skill.)

spoiler: In regards to Shintroy's idea and the videos I post.

RNGesus apologizes for the one-sidedness of some of the matches I post.  In all seriousness, if people do not like my current system, then feel free to speak up and I can change things.  Truth be told, I think the random match-making element is fun, but I didn't consider the possibility that it could bother some people.  If everybody agrees with and acts upon Shintroy's idea, then, for each match I record, I shall draw from the predetermined "competitive", "neutral" or "fun" team pools for both participating players.  We could take the time to categorize the inactive accounts' teams, as well, and perhaps improve some of them while doing so.

[Heroebal]

late recaps again, Thanks Ct5 holy for doing the stream and Andrew for keeping the video's coming.

spoiler: Me vs ShadowDragon15

Ouch Beta Toasters got toasted!! Not the easiest transition for beta toasters coming from Wiz's setup with the alway critical on bards/dancers and minimum cap on fury/faith. I'll probably have to rework Beta Toasters in some fashion not sure yet.

spoiler: Me vs Barren

GG Barren. Nice long even fight, I think my team not having enough ways to directly deal with reflect eventually did me in, especially when my paladin started getting charmed.  My wizard couldn't not make good use of faith rod due to not having anything that can get through reflect. I think maybe I could switch frog for water spells, but Barren's units all absorb water not sure if they she even use it. I probably should switch one of the archers secondaries to draw out.

[Heroebal]

Would it be a good idea for everyone to sort their teams into some categories everyone can agree on? I figure this would give uploaders an easier time when matching up teams. I recommend three categories, competitive, for fun, and another neutral category for teams that don't mind facing either type of team. Teams in the for fun category will be meant to only face for fun teams, while competitive teams will face other competitive teams and neutral ones. The neutral category is mainly there for "for fun" teams that want to see how they fair against competitive teams.

spoiler: Example of my teams sorted

Competitive Teams Your self proclaimed high end teams worthy of tournaments
Quetzalcoatl
Donuts
The Meta
With Haste

Neutral Teams Usually teams with a for fun concept but made to be competitive/high end. High potential/Meta changing teams.
Bad Breath
Bramble Blast
GGNORE

For Fun Teams Troll teams. Heavily themed teams. Teams that are obviously not meant for high end play. (Bad Breath while currently labeled as "for fun" I would have to put in the neutral category since it's definitely good enough to compete and would not be fair on other for fun teams (post sorting).
The Count

Exhibition matches are all about showcasing teams aren't they? If a match is extremely one sided then only one team gets showcased. One team looking really good is fine and all, but what about when it comes to updating the teams? If the match really is too one sided then neither teams will have enough information to upgrade their teams especially in match ups where one team doesn't even get to reach the other. Mime Wiznibus, Mime Lore, 4 Scholars, 12 SP OHKO archers, or really any team with the potential to get the other into an indefinite sandbag loop.

If everyone was to do this I think it would motivate others to make more teams. I think all three categories are encouraging enough as long as everyone sorts their teams out well.  I figure even if a quarter of the players here organized their teams there would be more entertaining match ups. Those that don't want to sort up could just be considered neutral. What does everyone else think about sorting teams to make match ups easier?

I might attempt this I'm doing a round robin tournament of my teams to see where they stand tier wise. It should give me a good idea once I'm through. Some are tough to judge though like Mimesmania whom can pack a punch but are basically all glass cannons. Kind of like the butterbean of fft arena. And bards from hell (5-3)are somehow outperforming dancers from hell (2-6), which I don't get b/c Dancers from can do everything the bard's one can do but better.

[Shintroy]

technically i have already did something like that with my sorting though i have 4 groups

Tournament Teams: For teams that are also meant to win... but they were used in previous tournaments i still plan to improve them but they are more of a memory thing then anything else.
ranked: For matches meant to win... these are the ones i will do everything i can to make them better

Themed: For Fun teams usually with a gimick of some sort... may they be based on something or have a certain thing about them

Collab Teams: for when i team up with another person or take part in a team effort. These teams are updated based on what the player that made the units want.

I'm aware of you and others that sort out their teams. Still though, I think it'd be best if we all organized our teams the same way. I noticed you have both tournament and ranked teams. I have the same thing going on with my tournament team, but unlike yours it isn't included in with my exhibition teams. Your tournament category could just fit in the competitive category since they're basically a tournament team updated for exhibition matches. Once a S4 team is updated it's no longer the same team used in tournament. All tournament teams are archived in the S4 thread (I'm just realizing this) so I'm actually going to remove mine from the team submission thread. If you were to sort yours this way you should keep yours in the competitive category, since unlike me you want to improve yours and have it compete against other teams also meant for tournament/ranked/high level play.

Themed and Collab teams can still be included in the categories I suggested. If they're gimmick heavy teams then just include them in for fun. If they have a lot of potential or you're unsure then go neutral, and if they're really great teams and you want them to only fight other teams then put them in the competitive category. My bad breath team was a for fun and themed team, but it has too much potential to be put up against other for fun teams. Everyone will just have to look at their teams objectively and sort them out.

spoiler: In regards to Shintroy's idea and the videos I post.

RNGesus apologizes for the one-sidedness of some of the matches I post.  In all seriousness, if people do not like my current system, then feel free to speak up and I can change things.  Truth be told, I think the random match-making element is fun, but I didn't consider the possibility that it could bother some people.  If everybody agrees with and acts upon Shintroy's idea, then, for each match I record, I shall draw from the predetermined "competitive", "neutral" or "fun" team pools for both participating players.  We could take the time to categorize the inactive accounts' teams, as well, and perhaps improve some of them while doing so.

Nothing to worry about since you're not the only one who uses RNG to pair teams up. Your system is fine, I'm just proposing a way to make it better. Everything will still be done randomly just with a filtering system as you said.

spoiler: The three categories

Competitive vs Competitive
Competitive meaning teams made with the best strategies in mind. You include your team in this category if you only want to be paired against competitive teams.

Neutral vs Neutral
These can be competitive teams that don't mind fighting weak teams and vice-versa. Players who don't want to organize their teams can be considered neutral since they more than likely wouldn't care about how their teams are matched up win or loss. I'll probably use this category for untested, but meant to be competitive teams for the first match and for teams. This is a great category since unlike the competitive one, you're able to face unconventional teams like Wiznibus Mime, High level SCC, and other types of teams that you probably won't see in high end play.

For fun vs For Fun
Troll teams: Joke teams clearly not meant to win.
Heavily themed teams: Similar to theme teams, but to the point where they sacrifice viability against other teams
Extreme gimmick teams/Handicapped: SCC Mime, The Damned-like teams, etc.
tl;dr teams made for good spirited fun and aren't overwhelmingly good. These are just some examples of what a for fun team is.

These are just how I see each category. If everyone were to be neutral then we'd still have some mismatches, but at least then we'd know they're mismatched. Mismatches won't matter for the other two categories since a competitive teams have match ups in mind and for fun teams just don't care.

For now I just want to read more input the idea. Inactive accounts can stay inactive. I don't think players on break need to have their teams being used and rated. I think everyone behind Anima Zero is inactive. If you want to include those teams in your matches it would be fine since they'd be considered neutral to the people who are active and have their teams organized. It all works out actually since it's impossible for competitive and "for fun" teams to be matched up against inactive teams.

I might attempt this I'm doing a round robin tournament of my teams to see where they stand tier wise. It should give me a good idea once I'm through. Some are tough to judge though like Mimesmania whom can pack a punch but are basically all glass cannons. Kind of like the butterbean of fft arena. And bards from hell (5-3)are somehow outperforming dancers from hell (2-6), which I don't get b/c Dancers from can do everything the bard's one can do but better.

I think bards have more potential than dancers just because they have access to superior AoE abilities due to their MA. Both are at 8 SP and 3 mobility, and have horrible weapon options sure, but being magic based means you're able to get more out of your turns than being physical based and they get more options in reaction, movement, and support abilities.

GL organizing your teams. There's really no need to unless you have some you want to only be matched up against competitive and for fun teams, but thanks for doing so since you'll be helping prevent mismatches in the categories where they matter.

[Shintroy]

Thought of another way to explain, or at least go into more detail in each category with explaining how players can sort "special request" teams. In the past there have been teams meant to only face a certain type of team and even against one single team. These teams would go in the for fun category since they're teams teams meant solely for fun and don't fit in the other two categories. Special request can be anything like "SCC Only", "vs Mime Only", or something specialty tournament worthy. Even a "NO JP cap", "S3 AI Tourney rules only" or something ridiculous like "vs NO LIMITS only".

"SCC Only" "NO JP Cap" "X Only"= For Fun. It's possible to make a SCC team, and compete with competitive and random team match ups sure, but this type of team will obviously only be paired up with other for fun teams with a "SCC only" special request tagged to it.

SCC Teams, Mime Teams, Twin Teams, Themed Teams = Neutral or Competitive. SCC teams can be made competitive, but at the same time can definitely out class a for fun team (See silentkaster's Thieves Guild). These teams are just teams with specific rules and can definitely be made high level (See any squire team).

This is just my input on the categories. The one that decides how their teams are organized is up to the player. I'm only worried about new players unaware of category "rules" accidentally putting a competitive team in a for fun team. The vice-versa doesn't really matter, but it does since it wastes the other team's time if they just end up getting steam rolled. No point in thinking about it now. Matching up teams hasn't even begun yet. Let's worry about the holes when we get there.

spoiler: No limits, No rules

Who's up for some nonsense? I'm definitely going to make a for fun team with this special request/ruleset/etc even if others don't.

[Reks]

While I do think that organization of your teams for more possible matches is good, I'm currently locked to my phone, which is nightmarish for editing text and such.

None of mine are really "for fun" and I don't really make purely competitive teams, either.

[Kurosabes]

Generally, my teams start out with an experiment, and I just build a team around it. Over time I try to make it competitive. If you want to gauge how competitive one of my teams are, I guess the version number could be a rough indication.

[Shintroy]

While I do think that organization of your teams for more possible matches is good, I'm currently locked to my phone, which is nightmarish for editing text and such.

None of mine are really "for fun" and I don't really make purely competitive teams, either.

Just remain neutral and maybe make new teams to fit the other categories. Players that can't categorize won't be affected by the sorting of team as previously said, but they won't be able to fight a player's high end or for fun teams.

If are actually able to sort your teams I'll do the formatting for you and just send you the post to copy and paste. All you would have to do is delete the spaces on the [b ] [/b] and add the brackets for

spoiler:

spoiler text 

Also if you need a .mcr or whatever the android/extension for memory cards is I'll make you the file with the teams you want since you aren't able to use excel on mobile. At least I don't think you're able to use excel. I haven't tested if my new phone is able to use complex spreadsheets.

spoiler

It's going to suck if there's only 5 competitive teams and for fun teams and everyone's fine with being neutral.

There was discussion about ranked matches with a point system months ago in this thread and in the S4 tournament thread and there's been a couple of tournament suggestions thrown around like a mime team tournament and a SCC tournament with regular rules. I think categorizing all teams in to three groups would please a lot of sides without needing to do things like tournaments or making threads like a ranking thread that would need constant managing. Categorizing will also help uploaders who have admitted having problems matching up teams sometimes. (I'm beginning to repeat myself I'm about to go to sleep.)

No one is pushing the sort, but I do encourage people to think about it so we can have a lot more entertaining matches instead of one sided ones like we've been getting a lot of recently. There's also no need to rush or feel pressured since this will only slow progress. I'd hate to see someone get their for fun team destroyed or even a competitive listed team get a free win not because of having a good match up, but because someone listed a team incorrectly.

Generally, my teams start out with an experiment, and I just build a team around it. Over time I try to make it competitive. If you want to gauge how competitive one of my teams are, I guess the version number could be a rough indication.

Same here and probably for many others WKW. If you don't think a team is strong enough to compete with a high end team then just list it as neutral. If you're making a competitive team, but are posting an early, weak, or even an untested version of it then list it as neutral. If you're like me and are in your tenth update of a supposedly competitive team then maybe it's time to let go (RIP My Me XI, Barrows X, Buff PA V, Power Rangers VII, etc). If you want to list them as competitive anyway then so do. There's always losing in the first round in a tournament. No pressure.

[Mudvayne]

FFT Arena 1.39c: Mudvayne 'Nothin' Special' vs Barren 'Top Four Teams of 1.39C'

FFT Arena 1.39c: Shintroy 'Quetzacoatl' vs Fpkfor 'Yourtooslow'

Been a while since I've recorded any videos and had some time this afternoon, so yeah. I haven't even ran an arena match my self in a few months despite the fact that I've still been making teams.

[silentkaster]

Well, I'll be the first to say I disagree with a rule or a "strong" suggestion that players organize their teams.

I wasn't going to chime in on this debate but since many are now, I feel that I need to speak up.

(Also, for any further discussion on this, we should make a sub topic, as this is for Arena Video Battle Discussion, not team building...I am weighing in here only because many people have already posted here.)

Here are the reasons I disagree:

1. It discourages new players
We should be encouraging new players. Players that come in here and see everyone organizing their teams a certain way and may be confused. Will their first team be competitive? A theme? None of the above? They may have never even played the game before so I don't think it's fair. Even if it's just a strong suggestion and not an actual rule, if most people are following it, it is still intimidating to new players and they may think, "Oh since I'll be such a newb, I'll just pass."

2. Recorders should be able to record what they want.
Having done recording, I'd say it took an average of slightly over an hour per video (if it was just one match) between recording, editing and uploading. It's time consuming and while it is enjoyable, it still takes some time. While I think Otabo's system was very good when he organized his teams (High Priority, low priority, don't use in any requests, etc), it was because it was so simple and easy to layout. To simply say, "I'd like to see this in a match before my other teams," or, "Please don't use these teams," was very easy to read and regardless of his reasons, didn't require any extra effort on a recorder's part.

As a recorder, part of the "fun" was going through and picking out teams that I thought would make good match ups. You'd be limiting the recorders by saying, "Well, I don't want these teams against teams that are marked X," or maybe you do, but since you've categorized your teams, they won't know that. Recorders, whether it be RNG, choosing matches by match up, or whatever other means they use, should have at least decent freedom in being able to use it. If you don't want to see a team in action unless you choose the match up, put "For requests only," in the spoiler or whatever.

3. Some players don't have categories for their teams.
As CT5Holy lists on his team list, "I don't have an 'A' team." Well, same thing here. Any of my teams are available for a match against any other team at any time. Even if I hilariously crash and burn with a certain team, it's okay. It shows weaknesses, or perhaps I designed it that way.

I currently have 14 teams (which I will cull down a bit soon), and literally, I'd have 14 categories. My categories would consist of anything from, "My first team made in Arena" (Signs of Aging which I made when my sister RedWorld introduced me to Arena) to "I woke up in the middle of the night and couldn't get back to sleep so I made a team" category.

All of my teams besides "Signs of Aging" and "Competitive Team" are themed in some way, and all of them are "for fun" and all of them are designed to at least be somewhat competitive, where they may have trouble winning, but at least they're not completely inept. I would venture to say that Barren and CT5Holy probably are similar, and would not mind their teams going up against any other teams, regardless of whether or not it's a "good" match up.

4. Recorders do requests.
Barren, CT5Holy and TrueLight, who have been around and recording since I've joined Arena will all take requests and I don't think I've had any of them not do a single match up for me. It's not always right away, but they will do them. It sounds like Andrew will take requests too. So...I mean if you want certain match ups, they'll record them for you. As stated earlier, if you organize your teams and want to see a certain one in action, it may be less likely to happen, since there may only be so many of those teams for you to face, and if we've seen most of them in recent matches, then you may have to wait longer.

I'm listing these as the main. While I understand people organizing their teams, and I'm not faulting anyone for doing that, I don't think it should be a rule or a strong suggestion. Do what you want, and don't say, "Well if you've been around a while, you should do this," because frankly, it's a game and I believe in keeping it very simple. Some people will want to organize their teams and some won't. If you don't want certain teams going up against certain others, then say that in your post. It's very easy for you to say, "Please don't put this up against highly competitive teams," or "This team was made to really be strong so I only want very strong established teams to go up against this one," right in your team submissions post if you prefer not to see random match ups with that specific team. But if you're like CT5Holy or I, we don't care which team of ours you use. If we lose horrifically, it'll either be a bad match up, or we'll see some flaws that we have to fix and repost. If it's a good match up, then a good fight ensues. And if the opponent loses, then they get to see either flaws in their team or attribute it to a bad match.

For the record, there's nothing wrong with using RNG for your match ups Andrew. Be aware you could be in for long, drawn out match ups (like two Fire absorb teams going at it or two defensive teams), or you could be in for matches that practically end before they begin, but you'll also get a lot of interesting and fun match ups that way too.

In any case, I won't be reorganizing my teams that way for the foreseeable future. I maintain any of my teams may be used at any time unless I have a note on the team submissions post that says otherwise.

[Kurosabes]

I think Shintroy's system is really not that complex. Any unsorted team would be considered neutral, like it is right now. There really wouldn't be that many competitive teams, so overall it would not affect things that much. We'd just have some matches that are at least semi-guaranteed to be competitive. We could also set limits or restrictions to keep the numbers down. For instance if someone enters themselves as competitive but they go on a losing streak, clearly that means they aren't ready yet. They could just be sent back to neutral until they update their team and try again. As for the fun/themed category, it was pretty much just unofficial at this point.

[Corosar]

FFT Arena 1.39c: Galaxtia (Corosar - Black)  -=VS=-  Special Tactics and Reconnaissance (Lakitu673 - Green)

FFT Arena 1.39c: We Finally Have A Mime (Mudvayne - White)  -=VS=-  Fire Cross (ShadowDragon15 - Black)

FFT Arena 1.39c: Predictable Air Absorb Team (reinoe - Green)  -=VS=-  The Raven King (Rouroni Elmdor - Red)
(EDIT: Stall makes your mime go over the JP cap, Rouroni, as it's 300 JP instead of 100 JP like the memory card generator says.  I decided to give your mime Death Sentence instead.  I'm sorry if you wanted another Talk Skill skill.)

spoiler: In regards to Shintroy's idea and the videos I post.

RNGesus apologizes for the one-sidedness of some of the matches I post.  In all seriousness, if people do not like my current system, then feel free to speak up and I can change things.  Truth be told, I think the random match-making element is fun, but I didn't consider the possibility that it could bother some people.  If everybody agrees with and acts upon Shintroy's idea, then, for each match I record, I shall draw from the predetermined "competitive", "neutral" or "fun" team pools for both participating players.  We could take the time to categorize the inactive accounts' teams, as well, and perhaps improve some of them while doing so.

Thanks for the match Andrew i love seeing these!

spoiler: My match

That match had me worried when i noticed the anti status and healing capibilities of the team i was against. it seemed as though i would have a hard time breaking through the nut of lakitu's team... but my group managed to pull out well with heavy AOE and DWAGONS!~ GG Lakitu!

Well, I'll be the first to say I disagree with a rule or a "strong" suggestion that players organize their teams.

I wasn't going to chime in on this debate but since many are now, I feel that I need to speak up.

(Also, for any further discussion on this, we should make a sub topic, as this is for Arena Video Battle Discussion, not team building...I am weighing in here only because many people have already posted here.)

Here are the reasons I disagree:

1. It discourages new players
We should be encouraging new players. Players that come in here and see everyone organizing their teams a certain way and may be confused. Will their first team be competitive? A theme? None of the above? They may have never even played the game before so I don't think it's fair. Even if it's just a strong suggestion and not an actual rule, if most people are following it, it is still intimidating to new players and they may think, "Oh since I'll be such a newb, I'll just pass."

2. Recorders should be able to record what they want.
Having done recording, I'd say it took an average of slightly over an hour per video (if it was just one match) between recording, editing and uploading. It's time consuming and while it is enjoyable, it still takes some time. While I think Otabo's system was very good when he organized his teams (High Priority, low priority, don't use in any requests, etc), it was because it was so simple and easy to layout. To simply say, "I'd like to see this in a match before my other teams," or, "Please don't use these teams," was very easy to read and regardless of his reasons, didn't require any extra effort on a recorder's part.

As a recorder, part of the "fun" was going through and picking out teams that I thought would make good match ups. You'd be limiting the recorders by saying, "Well, I don't want these teams against teams that are marked X," or maybe you do, but since you've categorized your teams, they won't know that. Recorders, whether it be RNG, choosing matches by match up, or whatever other means they use, should have at least decent freedom in being able to use it. If you don't want to see a team in action unless you choose the match up, put "For requests only," in the spoiler or whatever.

3. Some players don't have categories for their teams.
As CT5Holy lists on his team list, "I don't have an 'A' team." Well, same thing here. Any of my teams are available for a match against any other team at any time. Even if I hilariously crash and burn with a certain team, it's okay. It shows weaknesses, or perhaps I designed it that way.

I currently have 14 teams (which I will cull down a bit soon), and literally, I'd have 14 categories. My categories would consist of anything from, "My first team made in Arena" (Signs of Aging which I made when my sister RedWorld introduced me to Arena) to "I woke up in the middle of the night and couldn't get back to sleep so I made a team" category.

All of my teams besides "Signs of Aging" and "Competitive Team" are themed in some way, and all of them are "for fun" and all of them are designed to at least be somewhat competitive, where they may have trouble winning, but at least they're not completely inept. I would venture to say that Barren and CT5Holy probably are similar, and would not mind their teams going up against any other teams, regardless of whether or not it's a "good" match up.

4. Recorders do requests.
Barren, CT5Holy and TrueLight, who have been around and recording since I've joined Arena will all take requests and I don't think I've had any of them not do a single match up for me. It's not always right away, but they will do them. It sounds like Andrew will take requests too. So...I mean if you want certain match ups, they'll record them for you. As stated earlier, if you organize your teams and want to see a certain one in action, it may be less likely to happen, since there may only be so many of those teams for you to face, and if we've seen most of them in recent matches, then you may have to wait longer.

I'm listing these as the main. While I understand people organizing their teams, and I'm not faulting anyone for doing that, I don't think it should be a rule or a strong suggestion. Do what you want, and don't say, "Well if you've been around a while, you should do this," because frankly, it's a game and I believe in keeping it very simple. Some people will want to organize their teams and some won't. If you don't want certain teams going up against certain others, then say that in your post. It's very easy for you to say, "Please don't put this up against highly competitive teams," or "This team was made to really be strong so I only want very strong established teams to go up against this one," right in your team submissions post if you prefer not to see random match ups with that specific team. But if you're like CT5Holy or I, we don't care which team of ours you use. If we lose horrifically, it'll either be a bad match up, or we'll see some flaws that we have to fix and repost. If it's a good match up, then a good fight ensues. And if the opponent loses, then they get to see either flaws in their team or attribute it to a bad match.

For the record, there's nothing wrong with using RNG for your match ups Andrew. Be aware you could be in for long, drawn out match ups (like two Fire absorb teams going at it or two defensive teams), or you could be in for matches that practically end before they begin, but you'll also get a lot of interesting and fun match ups that way too.

In any case, I won't be reorganizing my teams that way for the foreseeable future. I maintain any of my teams may be used at any time unless I have a note on the team submissions post that says otherwise.

to be deeply honest... it was just a good way for me to catagorize what i had planned for the team... i don't really care if my teams are actually effective... in my mind they are just suppose to do what i mention about... one of my ranked teams has the gimmick of dark absorb... but i felt that the way i did it would be great for dealing with other teams that are in for the win so i placed them there.. the Nightmare hunters... are actually based around a bit of a RP i use to do but instead i wanted an effective team so i took characters that would work... and implemented them into a team... been working great.

in fact almost all my teams are based around something... in some form but i can see your point in the catagories being scary... hmmm... not sure how to remedy it for people that like catagorizing their teams.

[dw6561]

I like making fun teams and I wouldn't mind seeing them crash and burn occasionally, but I also don't want to see myself pitted against a team way above my league either. Both sides make very good points.

Actually, the more I think about it, I like the simplistic system we have now and I don't really want to see it changed. I'm not extremely opinionated on the matter, but I think it would be confusing as I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around it now.

[Kurosabes]

Maybe there shouldn't be a fun category, but just Competitive and Regular/Neutral? That would at least prevent some one-sided matches.

[Barren]

Well for me when I first started well over 5 years ago I didn't know how to make strong teams either at first. I would normally just mesh teams together without really thought. After a while when I understood the strategies alot better I incorporate it into my more competitive teams. For those who were around in Arena back when it first started I had a couple of gimmick teams until I was most famous for a team I called "the big assault"

Meant to be an full offensive team to wipe out the opposition immediately. My final version of that team was my season 1 team back in 2012 which was very successful. I also was one of the first if not the first to use a draw out bard because of their high MA and their array of clothes they can wear. That particular setup is so famous people still use it today. So it's really encouraging for new players to look back at history if they want to have an idea on how well/bad teams functions.

As far as pairing up teams together I usually just do a random matchup. Sometimes good sometimes not so much pending your perspective. So honestly if someone is new to building teams it is only fair for them to face someone at his/her level so they can be comfortably introduced before taking on more elite players like myself or CT5, TrueLight. And even we sometimes have bad luck rather than bad teams like silentkaster said. I give out on RNG screwing me over sometimes but in all honesty that's just how it works for some people. It's all just for the sake of having a good match anyways

[CT5Holy]

While I understand people organizing their teams, and I'm not faulting anyone for doing that, I don't think it should be a rule or a strong suggestion. Do what you want, and don't say, "Well if you've been around a while, you should do this," because frankly, it's a game and I believe in keeping it very simple. Some people will want to organize their teams and some won't.

[fpkfor]

I agree with the general consensus here, people that want to organize do it, people that dont want to organize dont do it, simple as that

[silentkaster]

I think Shintroy's system is really not that complex. Any unsorted team would be considered neutral, like it is right now. There really wouldn't be that many competitive teams, so overall it would not affect things that much. We'd just have some matches that are at least semi-guaranteed to be competitive. We could also set limits or restrictions to keep the numbers down. For instance if someone enters themselves as competitive but they go on a losing streak, clearly that means they aren't ready yet. They could just be sent back to neutral until they update their team and try again. As for the fun/themed category, it was pretty much just unofficial at this point.

That's my point though. Some players are better and/or more competitive than others. For example, when Mudvayne and Andrew made their first teams, I was like, "Daaaaaaang girl!" (I know you're both male, but I'm gay and anything that impresses me auto gets that response ). Yet, take a struggling player and/or a player who doesn't know Arena's concepts who actually tried into that situation and it's gonna be awkward. Are you honestly going to tell a player, "Listen, I know you made this a competitive team and you might think it's good...but you gotta go back to the kiddie pool for a bit until you're ready." That makes it sound a bit harsh, but that's literally what you're telling them to do.

Again, (and as CT5 quoted me in saying but I'll repeat) I'm not singling out people who like organizing their teams. If that's what you like doing, then do it. But Shintroy is suggesting/proposing an unwritten rule, essentially, where it is either required or highly suggested that players organize their teams. I say no. Let players do what they want.

I like making fun teams and I wouldn't mind seeing them crash and burn occasionally, but I also don't want to see myself pitted against a team way above my league either. Both sides make very good points.

Actually, the more I think about it, I like the simplistic system we have now and I don't really want to see it changed. I'm not extremely opinionated on the matter, but I think it would be confusing as I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around it now.

Well for me when I first started well over 5 years ago I didn't know how to make strong teams either at first. I would normally just mesh teams together without really thought. After a while when I understood the strategies alot better I incorporate it into my more competitive teams. For those who were around in Arena back when it first started I had a couple of gimmick teams until I was most famous for a team I called "the big assault"

Meant to be an full offensive team to wipe out the opposition immediately. My final version of that team was my season 1 team back in 2012 which was very successful. I also was one of the first if not the first to use a draw out bard because of their high MA and their array of clothes they can wear. That particular setup is so famous people still use it today. So it's really encouraging for new players to look back at history if they want to have an idea on how well/bad teams functions.

As far as pairing up teams together I usually just do a random matchup. Sometimes good sometimes not so much pending your perspective. So honestly if someone is new to building teams it is only fair for them to face someone at his/her level so they can be comfortably introduced before taking on more elite players like myself or CT5, TrueLight. And even we sometimes have bad luck rather than bad teams like silentkaster said. I give out on RNG screwing me over sometimes but in all honesty that's just how it works for some people. It's all just for the sake of having a good match anyways

In two fairly evenly matched teams, it's going to come down to (mostly) the RNG anyway. Eventually, due to RNG (and perhaps AI shenanigans which we all love), one side is going to pull ahead. A lucky dodge, getting through massive evasion, a double turn, an uncharacteristic AI action, the AI redirecting Stop onto itself...all of these things most of us have seen on more than one occasion be the winning factor in an otherwise very heated match. Yes, the RNG can and often is, the only factor that affects a match.

That being said, dw6561, the mere existence of categories probably won't stop bad match ups. As WKW pointed out, players will post teams in certain categories possibly over or under estimating their abilities. As a result, you're likely to get someone like my niece (fdquinn11) where I literally have to explain every ability to her when we get together and she wants to make a team putting a team she thinks is good in a competitive category against Barren's competitive team which will probably be over in less than five minutes.

In fact, there are times when I was recording I purposely looked through all the teams available to find something I thought was going to be good and then I record and it was over very very quickly. There's just no way to avoid them.

But if you're worried about good match ups, just request against certain teams you find interesting or that looks like it might be fun to go up against. Recorders are usually grateful when you make their jobs really easy

Squadalah!

[Andrew]

Here are today's matches.  Remember: I will always fulfil requests to the best of my ability!

FFT Arena 1.39c: Heretics (Heroebal - White)  -=VS=-  Unavoidable Skill (Epic - Green)

FFT Arena 1.39c: Elemental Rahkshis 3 (StarRacer - Blue)  -=VS=-  Soundbite (CT5Holy - White)

FFT Arena 1.39c: Bomb Squad (Dokurider - Black)  -=VS=-  Unlikely Pairings - Episode 03 (Andrew - Brown)

spoiler: All Matches and Information

spoiler: How I do things

The rounds will always go as follows:

Round 1 = medium-sized maps
Round 2 = large/small-sized maps
Tiebreaker = medium-sized maps

The maps are randomly-selected (www.random.org) from a modified list of the maps that Gaignun deemed worthy in this thread: http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=8608.0.

I randomize who fights who, as well.  Once a player is selected, I then randomly pick one of their teams, unless there's some sort of exception, of course.  If somebody has a request, I will fulfil it to the best of my ability.

I know that this results in some one-sided matches, but there are also some pairings that people may have not thought of before that prove to be interesting!  If there are some teams that people would like to see removed from the pool, then we can talk about it.  Enjoy!

(Also, I'm always updating the memory card generator's team list, which can be downloaded in this thread: http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=11117.0.)

My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3RK1n2ZPqxk8wZdG8-wyng (I have to wait 30 days to give myself a custom URL... ugh.)

spoiler: FFT Arena 1.39c: Rock Out with your Bards Out!!! (Heroebal - Black)  -=VS=-  Ragtag Misfits From Tinkerland (Reks - Blue)

spoiler: FFT Arena 1.39c: Nothin' Special (Mudvayne - Yellow)  -=VS=-  Cloudsurfing (Gaignun - Blue)

spoiler: FFT Arena 1.39c: The Meds (reinoe - Red)  -=VS=-  Big Number Parade (CT5Holy - White)

spoiler: FFT Arena 1.39c: Mavericks (Rouroni Elmdor - Blue)  -=VS=-  Store Wars (dw6561 - Yellow)

spoiler: FFT Arena 1.39c: Ride to Hell: Retribution 1% (silentkaster - White)  -=VS=-  Meatbone Slash Plus Balance Off The Reflect For the Win!!! (Heroebal - Black)

spoiler: FFT Arena 1.39c: Yourtooslow (fpkfor - Blue)  -=VS=-  Seraphic Earth (Anima Zero - Brown)

spoiler: FFT Arena 1.39c: Danger Zone (Lakitu673 - Black)  -=VS=-  Kakumeiki (White Knight Wiegraf - Red)

spoiler: FFT Arena 1.39c: Bad Breath (Shintroy - Green)  -=VS=-  Top Four Classes as of 1.39c (Barren - Brown)

spoiler: FFT Arena 1.39c: Buff PA (Shintroy - Red)  -=VS=-  Ride to Hell: Retribution 1% (silentkaster - White)

spoiler: FFT Arena 1.39c: Fancy Shmancy Geomancy (Reks - Red)  -=VS=-  Double Edge (Krypt - Black)

spoiler: FFT Arena 1.39c: Anbu Black Ops Unit (ShadowDragon15 - Black)  -=VS=-  Beta Toasters (Heroebal - Red)

spoiler: FFT Arena 1.39c: Children of Terra (gatebuster202 - Brown)  -=VS=-  PA Mime (Andante49 - Red)

spoiler: FFT Arena 1.39c: Midnight Platoon (Anima Zero - Black)  -=VS=-  Dark Impetus (Malroth - Brown)

spoiler: FFT Arena 1.39c: GGNORE (Shintroy - Green)  -=VS=-  The Clean Up Squad (RedWorld - Red)

spoiler: FFT Arena 1.39c: Galaxtia (Corosar - Black)  -=VS=-  Special Tactics and Reconnaissance (Lakitu673 - Green)

spoiler: FFT Arena 1.39c: We Finally Have A Mime (Mudvayne - White)  -=VS=-  Fire Cross (ShadowDragon15 - Black)

spoiler: FFT Arena 1.39c: Predictable Air Absorb Team (reinoe - Green)  -=VS=-  The Raven King (Rouroni Elmdor - Red)

spoiler: FFT Arena 1.39c: Heretics (Heroebal - White)  -=VS=-  Unavoidable Skill (Epic - Green)

spoiler: FFT Arena 1.39c: Elemental Rahkshis 3 (StarRacer - Blue)  -=VS=-  Soundbite (CT5Holy - White)

spoiler: FFT Arena 1.39c: Bomb Squad (Dokurider - Black)  -=VS=-  Unlikely Pairings - Episode 03 (Andrew - Brown)

You're welcome, Corosar... I'm glad that you're enjoying the matches!

[Shintroy]

@silentkaster
1. I don't think you understood any of the categories if you think it discourages new players. What's discouraging is this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTj1M4U_W18 . Nobody's at fault here except maybe RNGesus forsaking Joorum who was a new player at the time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10S6lDAh6KU 42 Minutes in against Malroth's team. Again, you're not at fault, I'm not at fault, and Malroth definitely isn't at fault here, but wow if this isn't a good example of a why there needs to be some pooling, seeding, or match making system then I don't know what is. At least in the next AI tournament we will have teams made specifically for testing tournament teams since there will 100% guaranteed be a team in the competitive category and a for fun team that follows a NO JP Cap or past tournament ruling.

2. I'm not forcing anything on the recorders but to maybe respect the players choices when it comes to pairing up their competitive and for fun teams with those that aren't sorted aka "neutral category". In the past people have taken the time out to make teams made specifically for one purpose like for fun or supposedly competitive and I feel leaving things how they are now wastes an opportunity for these players and maybe even for the uploaders themselves. It solves a player feeling like all of their teams have to be ready to compete and prevents uploaders from having to apologizing for taking the time out to record a match. I don't understand how you're not seeing the categories being the same thing as labeling too. Every point you've made at the end there just fits the neutral and maybe "for fun" category.

3. Definitely didn't understand the point of the categories again. If you don't care for them then you're automatically neutral. The categories aren't about the people that don't care, they're there for players that do. 14 categories? It's almost as if you didn't read the spoilered info at all so I'll explain again at the end of this post.

4. The categories doesn't stop all requests. I just posted twice about there needing to be a universal system for players to organize their teams, that's it, the system doesn't change much. The only thing that will change is a player being unable to have a match against a team if it's not in the same category. Of course if the player is active they can always accept requests, but if an inactive team were to have organized teams and someone wanted to have a match up with one they'd have to have a team in the same category matched up out of respect for the inactive player's wishes.

I think Shintroy's system is really not that complex. Any unsorted team would be considered neutral, like it is right now. There really wouldn't be that many competitive teams, so overall it would not affect things that much. We'd just have some matches that are at least semi-guaranteed to be competitive. We could also set limits or restrictions to keep the numbers down. For instance if someone enters themselves as competitive but they go on a losing streak, clearly that means they aren't ready yet. They could just be sent back to neutral until they update their team and try again. As for the fun/themed category, it was pretty much just unofficial at this point.

Exactly WKW. I admit I didn't as good of a job as I could have explaining the categories since it was done right on the spot, but it's obviously silentkaster didn't understand enough to fully agree or disagree with them as much as you were able to.

You have a good grasp on the reasons behind the neutral and competitive categories and how teams always have the option to change between them. The for fun category is definitely an odd one that I need to put more thought into. I think a lot of players need to rethink how teams are since there's a lot of players that may believe a "themed" team should or could fit in the "for fun" category.

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What makes a team a team? Obviously it's four functional units trying to achieve the same goal "to win". But what about teams that want to do more than win or just have a wacky match that goes on forever? In those cases it's not just about winning and losing and I believe these teams need a system so that they're matched up better.

Now I'm not the only one that thought there needed to be a ranking system of some sort. It's been discussed in this thread and others like the annual tournament thread. Seeding has been discussed, but I don't think it's fair for players since would end up in numeral ranking and with players at the bottom which would probably end up badly for the spirit of the game since players wouldn't have a choice if they ever competed in the competitive tournaments. Ranked matches has also been proposed, but I don't think this would be a good idea either since it would require everyone to make competitive teams, uploaders to do the matches, and a point system to rank players. Too much work and it's probably intimidating for newer players to be paired up with a top ranked player even if it's one of their bad or fun teams. All discussion for these ideas have died out since I guess everyone's fine with the current system.

That's when I thought of a way for the neutral players to stay neutral and for players that want to be matched up with other high level and gimmick teams. The three categories won't have ANY affect on the players that don't to or aren't able to organize their teams. They'll only affect the players that choose to use them.

The competitive category is pretty self explanatory; a category for teams designed specifically for high level play. Teams in this category will only be able to fight against other competitive teams so there's nothing to worry about for the casual passive player. Their team will have zero chance of being paired up against cutthroats unless an uploader does so.

The "For Fun" category is an odd one since not everyone has the same idea of what makes a team fun. So I'll explain what kind of labeling doesn't automatically make a team fit this category.

spoiler: Current Labels

Themed teams - These teams come with infinite possibilities like any other team, but are restricted to their theme. Some themed teams just had the names and gender of their portrayed character while others went to the extreme and gave their teams weaknesses, weapons, and other things to the point where they barely functioned. What I mean is just because a team is themed doesn't make it bad. My mime tournament team was themed after an album, but it got second place, my bad breath team is based entirely off of the objectively best blue magic in final fantasy history "Bad Breath" and is currently 5-0. These teams are more than just themed teams, one is a high level mime team meant to be competitive and the other was meant to be a "for fun" team but ended up being a huge threat. I'm actually not sure how others would categorize bad breath, but I think it's too much for what my idea of a "for fun" team is so I'm putting it in the neutral category.

A good example of a for fun themed team would be my mime team "Fists of the North Star" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xkm96eFjVtE or Dracula. Neither team would overwhelm the other and it's pretty obvious neither were meant for competitive play I'm confident in everyone being able to identify their themed teams meant to showcase their theme.

Mime Teams - 139, the patch where mime got access to a abilities, equipment, and lost its innate abilities like ribbon and concentrate. In short mimes became less of a gimmick class and more of a versatile support class so having a mime on your team doesn't automatically classify it as a bad team. I don't think I have to go into this one much. Just look at Ban Hammer or Delay Buster.

SCC Teams - We all know how powerful 4 thieves can be so I won't have to go into much detail here either. SCC teams can be extremely powerful if executed well enough. If a player wants their SCC team to only be paired up against other SCC teams then that has to go in the for fun category with label like 

spoiler: Team Name (VS SCC Only)

or something easy to understand. The competitive category isn't for specific requests since teams made for that category shouldn't care about random match ups since it's the closest thing to a tournament setting where exceptions shouldn't be made. If you want to make a SCC team and have it compete against supposed best teams then by all means label it as competitive or neutral.

With the for fun category we'll also be able to have some new matches like no jp cap exhibition matches and other rules we've never been able to have outside of tournaments.

The neutral category is for players that don't want to categorize and for players that don't care about what their team gets matched up against. This category is just the current system in short where any type of teams get matched up. A competitive team will be able to fight a for fun team and vice-versa here, but now players and uploaders will know what's possible here unlike before. So no more apologies and feeling sorry for yourself in this category since there's always the option of making a for fun team or competitive team.
-------------------

So many posts while typing this. Looks like everyone at least understands this as entirely optional (neutral). I'm just glad I'm not alone in trying to make it easier on the uploader's conscious when using RNG and getting poorly matched up teams.

But Shintroy is suggesting/proposing an unwritten rule, essentially, where it is either required or highly suggested that players organize their teams. I say no. Let players do what they want.

Still not understanding the point of the neutral category. It's not about the players that are against the categories, it's about the players that care about how some of their teams are matched up. In the future when we have the S5 (or is it 6?) tournament there will definitely be more matches like I posted above where someone's tournament team gets showcased against other non tournament teams for exhibition. The categories will without a doubt make uploaders jobs easier when it comes to these types of videos since all they will have to do is pair them with competitive teams.

--------------------------------------

spoiler: vs fpkfor

Balanced team vs faster balanced team
Looks like fpk's at an advantage here. He has the definite speed, range, and damage advantage here and projectile guard. This is going to be a tough match for me.

Round 1 - Brutal stuff here. fpk's archer destroyed my ninja at the start and then just piled out the damage from afar. I didn't even get to do anything here. Good stuff.

Round 2 - Slightly better game since my archer didn't start out attacking the monk. The ninja still got blown up at the start though. Really convincing win here.

Very good game. I'm glad this team finally got blown up since I've only ever updated it once. I really like the versatility of your chemist fpk. So much depth in this team. Good luck against other competitive teams, I was indeed too slow here.

Thanks for the match Andrew. Hope you're not overworking yourself with these matches. Subscribed yesterday.