Final Fantasy Hacktics

It has definitely been a while since I got my hands on Jot5, but I can't really remember any that were worth mentioning outside of the monster battles (Sweegy and Ganon). Ganon's dudes outright one shot me with Kotetsu. However, that being said, I was one of the guys that grinded (ground? not sure due to the context) like crazy because I wanted to see some of the new jobs in action. In a normal playthrough, I very seriously doubt I would have had that much trouble.

I actually kind of liked the turtle one. But, again, I'd done a lot of grinding and had some of the other jobs unlocked, which I don't think would be too practical for a normal playthrough if my memory is correct.

Quote from: kyozo22 on December 10, 2014, 04:39:39 pm
Dude, it's me. You know I understood you. 

I know you did, but I can't help thinking of how it looked to everyone else. 

Quote from: kyozo22 on December 10, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
Was it more or less drawn out than the good old Dark Knight's?

I meant.. of laughter.. not.. that I was the...

Nevermind.

Quote from: Xifanie on December 10, 2014, 04:18:20 pm
> TristanBeoulve after reading Advent's post:

spoiler

Holy shit I just died. LOL.

Quote from: TristanBeoulve on December 09, 2014, 05:39:29 pm
It's more realistic man. I doubt anyone said that (the bottom part) in the Middle Ages or the Renaissance. I find it to be more enjoyable when I can immerse myself.

I actually asked a friend of mine who has a background in this sort of thing this question a while back.

Quote
I played through WOTL once on my PSP. While the new content was well-done (I especially enjoyed the extra Delita scenes) and the translation made the story much more comprehensible (though at least for reasons of nostalgia I still much prefer Dycedarg's elder brother), the pseudo-Shakespearean garble bothered me to no end. And not because it was too Ye Olde English, but because it wasn't Þe Olde English enough. I have an MA in Medieval Studies and, having spent some time reading real Middle English texts, I can attest that English never at any time worked the way it does in WOTL. The dialect is a disgusting hybrid monstrosity. It could have been done much more accurately without sacrificing readability.

So, there you have it. The bastardized English is an aberration.

Quote from: Jack of All Trades on March 14, 2014, 11:28:49 am
Dorter Trade City comes up on you pretty quick in your first Vanilla playthrough. How many people got through that battle on their first try without losing a unit?

First playthrough is understandable; I'm speaking in the context of someone who played this as a child, and is now replaying it.

Quote from: Toshiko on March 13, 2014, 07:41:20 pm
I suppose my opinion would be different if I approached them the same way I do puzzle games (where I -also- like to be challenged), but RPG battles to me are like commercials during a TV show; they can be entertaining once in a while, but I've been conditioned to see them as a nuisance. The shorter the better.

I suppose I can see that. I enjoy my RPG battles most of the time, but to each his own.

Quote from: Choto on March 13, 2014, 03:57:53 pm
I used to enjoy hack and slashing of vanilla when I was a kid. When I experienced them for the first time, the mustadio and velius fights were actually an adequate difficulty. Of course now they can be made trivial... Everybody has their tastes though, I doubt there's a one-difficulty-fits-all with FFT mods.

I agree that the thresholds are different, but how anyone can -- now, when they're not sub-13 years old -- play Vanilla and say it is challenging enough to keep stuff interesting is beyond me.

Quote from: kyozo22 on March 13, 2014, 10:08:56 am
I certainly don't, but given our vanilla mod of choice, we may well be somewhat biased.

I just don't see how anyone could find the difficulty (or lack thereof) of Vanilla to be enjoyable.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on March 13, 2014, 07:18:22 am
3. Totally unnecessary.
Poison is cured by Heal (you have Ramza).
Charm can be dispelled by attacking your own units.  Just because the AI is too stupid to do this properly doesn't mean you have to be.
Confuse can be removed in the same way as charm, but it's actually good for you because you can use it to exploit the AI.  A confused unit will not be directly targeted by the AI unless the AI can 1HKO him or he walks into the AoE range of an AI attack.

But FDC you don't understand. I need the ability to outright prevent it! I need unisex Ribbons at the beginning of Chapter 1!

In all seriousness, I agree. Chapter 1 isn't hard as it is; you want it to be even easier with status immunity to everything?

Edit: I know Jot5's not a difficulty mod, but for Christ's sake, you don't want it to be as easy as Vanilla, right? >.>

Bro, do you even quote? Everything you quoted me as saying in the first of those two posts was said by FDC, not me.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
My argument is that you guys should take it out because you don't want it there. Raven has said, in several places, that he doesn't expect you to have access to advanced jobs in chapter 1. I haven't read every single one of his posts. but most of them state this.

Right, but there is nothing objective (or reasonable, given limitations) about what you are asking. If you could lay out a cohesive (again, objective) argument about why -- mechanically -- leaving all those jobs in there but not expecting you to use them (yet) is bad, you'd be in a good spot. You have yet to do so.

And for the record, so there's no confusion on your part, Onisake, I am not part of the Jot5 team. I simply played a lot of it when Chapter 1 had just been released.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
I want things to be designed well and have balance. is that really an unreasonable request? the only thing imbalanced is the rate at which you gain JP.

Designed "well" is subjective, but that's neither here nor there.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
It's also been stated if you get too high in levels, monster battles become increasingly difficult because you lack the gear to close the power gap.

There is a saying we have on the insanelyderpy boards regarding 1.3 that applies here: you can grind, but be aware that the enemies will grind with you.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
It's one thing to say you have to excessively grind. it's another to say you have to excessively grind AND effectively screw yourself in every other random encounter you have

You don't "have" to grind at all. The entirety of Chapter 1 is perfectly beatable with everyone in their base job with Item secondary.

That said, that may not be very fun for a lot of people. I for one grinded pretty heavily, mostly because I wanted to see some more of the new jobs. Sweegy gave me a hard time, and Ganon's minions claimed my lifeless corpse. However, I realize that that's a direct result of my actions, and not just the game design being bad. If I went through Jot5 again, I'm sure I could easily take Ganon down.

To say that you have to excessively grind -- or grind at all, for that matter -- is simply spurious.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
isn't unlocking everything also playing the game? playing the game isn't ONLY story progression.

'Kay. We can play this game.

Let's continue the slight trend and use Dark Souls as an example.

Most people would constitute "playing the game" as progressing, exploring, etc. It would be going throughout the game itself at a somewhat normal pace.

Unlocking everything, in this context, would be staying in the Upper Undead Burg and grinding on Undead Soldiers until you were SL 80 or higher.

See the difference?

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
you agreed with my point directly after that, but disagree with the point that it's founded on?

I agree with the fact that JP gain can be at times annoyingly low, but disagree with the premise that it's a balance issue.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
I don't really like putting my wizard and priest on the front line. considering they have lower HP, lower defense, and have little means of protecting themselves because they are fundamentally back-line classes. the attack command on them isn't really the first thing I think of.

Dude. The Attack command is the most powerful thing in the entire game.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
They are the same thing. prior to level 10 you only really have access to your base class and chemist. by their very nature, having these two skill sets makes everyone a self-sufficient hybrid.

Because it's not like you have the ability to not play them as hybrids, and instead use them as a cohesive team, right?

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 03:22:33 pm
I would disagree. it makes sense from both perspectives. If I the player, don't know something exists, I can't try to achieve it. In jot5, trying to achieve things too soon make your level 'too high' and makes certain encounters more difficult. I'm not opposed to this outright. but the balancing could be done in a way that these fights are difficult, not near impossible.

but the thing is, jot5 is being released piecemeal. certain things are suffering as a consequence. but that's my whole point. they don't have to suffer.

chapter 1 is already in a temporary state. but it's being treated like its content will never change. ever. this is what i don't understand.

So your argument is that "you guys should take it out of the game because I don't like it in there." No one is forcing you to try to achieve anything. Are you incapable of making a clear and concentrated choice? Because what you're saying is literally that. Your argument is not objective in the least, it is entirely a nitpick that you have with how things are being done.

You want things to be done one way, when they're being done in another. There is literally no difference in the effect on the player aside from what you're nitpicking about. If anything, I'd argue it another way and say that I prefer it this way because if I choose to, I can get a little taste of what I can expect to have in future chapters.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 03:22:33 pm
What you said is actually more in favor of restriction than against it.

No, what you've gathered from what I said is quite different from what I've actually said.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 03:22:33 pm
I typed a lot. i understand you probably didn't read all of it. but I read everything you write. if you're going to argue with me, have the decency to at least attempt to understand my point of view.

Clearly you do not, because I actually did read what you wrote. A misunderstanding does not automatically give one a pass to be a pompous ass.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 03:22:33 pm
1) advanced jobs are available in Vanilla in chapter 1. Advanced jobs are available in jot5 in chapter 1.

1a) it has been stated that we should not expect to have advanced jobs because it is only chapter 1. to help prevent this, scaling is in place to make certain fights more difficult, because they require better equipment, rather than better skills.

No, it's been stated that you should not expect to have them without an excessive amount of grinding in Chapter 1.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 03:22:33 pm
1b) Argument 1: If i'm not supposed to have access to it because it is only chapter 1, why is it included?

This argument in no way says the game should play just like vanilla. but it looks like vanilla, and I do have access to it. because it's right there. so why are you saying I shouldn't have access to it when you gave me access to it?

Because I would assume it's implied that you're simply playing the game instead of going out of your way to unlock everything. If you were, you wouldn't know anything about Animists and what have you.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 03:22:33 pm
2) JP gains are too low and disrupt game balance early on.

What.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 03:22:33 pm
2b) Argument 2: Jp gains early on do not feel well tuned. when switching from a necessary progression path (IE: Chemist) you lose too much of your power for that level.

On this, we can agree.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 03:22:33 pm
Furthermore, when switching to a new job the item subskill is one of the poorer choices early on, because this drains your gil if you use it as a JP gaining mechanism, and without investing further for throw-item you put your weakest character at the time in dangerous positions. draining your gil resources early means you will progress your equipment growth (which is equally important in jot5) at a slower rate.

Have you tried using the Attack command.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 03:22:33 pm
I don't really need a video. but if you can prove to me you can gain access to knight/wizard/priest at level 10 without 'wasting' 300-400 jp on chemist. That would be swell.

That's not what I said. What I said was that I could easily produce a video that disproves your notion that everyone is forced to be a self-sufficient hybrid, where you can't have a cohesive team.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 10:47:50 am
If you do not learn certain abilities, you lose the ability to learn them. other abilities are added. this may have been a bug on one of my play throughs, but I remember distinctly losing the chance to learn an ability when the chapter changed because i didn't learn it before it ended, and ramza's change added new abilities.

No. That's not how it works. As Toshiko said, the different jobs are accomplished by using different slots. I can pull up a screenshot right now of FFTPatcher showing that every one of Ramza's skillsets are not retroactive. In fact..

Chapter 1


Chapter 2-3


Chapter 4


EDIT: I did not, however, know that only those would store the formation data, Elric. You learn something new every day.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 10:47:50 am
You say you don't think we should  have access to certain things at the end of chapter 1. you then say if you really want to you can grind to get it, but there will  be major consequences.

This doesn't make any sense. It's clear you don't want us to have it. so i'll say it again: why is it there? This question has not been answered.

Speaking as a modder myself, I have things currently in my Breath of Fire 3 beta release that the player simply does not have access to unless they either hack it in or they progress farther than the mod itself is complete. It makes complete sense, but from a developmental perspective rather than a user perspective.

It's simply more efficient (generally speaking) to have a to-do list of what to code in and in what order instead of doing it all in chronological order in regards to the game itself. See the bottom of this post (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=10179.msg194282#msg194282) for what I'm talking about.

This is also one reason why you generally don't see things released piecemeal like Jot5 is without a legitimate reason.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 10:47:50 am
The answer could be simply: we don't have the capability to add the class in chapter 3, but exclude it in chapter 1. This nonsense about 'oh, you can get it if you really want to grind it out.' and then saying 'it's chapter 1, why do you expect to have it?' needs to stop.

It's not nonsense. See previous paragraph.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 10:47:50 am
I bring up Vanilla because that is the game this is  based off of. Anything In Vanilla, you can do. lacking the skill to do that is different than saying it's outright not possible.

I've always wondered why I hear this from people when talking about a mod, simply because the point is self-defeating. Why are you going to play a mod if you want it to play just like Vanilla? Isn't the point of a mod to keep the core (which is not what this is arguing) but freshen the experience (either by difficulty, new maps, new abilities, etc)? I'm asking this as a legitimate question; I just don't understand it. If you wanna play Vanilla, then go play Vanilla.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 10:47:50 am
For base class at least, you could have replaced the main 5 from chapter 1 to 2 to 'force' us into chemist faster so we dont' waste precious levels on learning abilities on base class.

This is one of the few points I agree with here, and I brought it up with Raven months ago. I can't quite remember what the response was, though.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 10:47:50 am
Best response to  being called lazy ever. in most cultures laughing is a sign of embarrassment. Am i reading too much into it?

Uhh, no. Laughing is a motor response that is capable of conveying a wide range of emotions. Happiness, sadness, embarrassment, but I think a far more likely response from Raven would be this: "is this kid serious? LOL."

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 10:47:50 am
A lot of indie developers tend to ignore the math of balance. by nature, most people are not theory crafters, and not many people possess the knowledge to properly apply mathmatical models to balance or game design.

The only person I know who is on Raven's level of unhuman-like FFT mechanic (math very much included) knowledge is probably philsov, so I'm going to agree with FDC here.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 10:47:50 am
Rather than being able to make a cohesive team I've been forced, by you the developer, to make each member of my party an self-sufficient unit for the first half of the chapter. you can't possibly in good conscience say i'm free to build my team how i wish, when you force me to spend 2 or 3 levels on chemist.

My experience with Chapter 1 of Jot5 begs to differ. "Forced" is a very strong word, and believe me when I tell you that I can produce a video that disproves this if asked.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on March 11, 2014, 10:46:35 pm
Raven's right about CT though; it is the bigger problem in FFT and there only seems to be three good ways to deal with it.

1) Kill or severely neuter speed growth.
XOR
2) Make the final CT of a spell decrease over time as a mage levels up.
XOR
3) Severely neuter the damage and "instant status" offense so midcharging is not a credible threat.

These are mutually exclusive as doing all three is overkill.

Yeah. I know that 1.3 in particular suffers from speed in lategame (I assume other mods do as well, but I'll readily admit I have the most experience with 1.3 by a mile and some change). Number one is probably the easiest to implement, but number two is kind of intriguing to think about.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on March 11, 2014, 07:46:49 pm
I agree with Advent's point of view.  It's always nice to have more variables to balance a game's features.  The MP system, in my opinion, is perfectly fair IF
1) Every class is MP dependent AND MP Regen is an innate
OR
2) Every class has valid non-MP options for offense / defense.
OR
3) MP-dependent classes (henceforth known as mages) are so powerful that only being able to attack once or twice is a necessary balance feature.

People will recognize that vanilla's magic system is a case of #3 early game.  It's merely that the late-game balance was wrong.

I agree. I learned a while back that actually attempting to mod a game teaches you a lot about these things as opposed to simply playing one.

Sounds simple enough, I know, but it's something a lot of people* just don't get.

*I am speaking generally of course; not pointing out anyone in this thread in particular.

Quote from: kyozo22 on March 11, 2014, 10:52:40 am
... I'm so glad I've never seen a pic of you IRL, Advent. That would be a bitch of an image to try an wipe from my memory. Thanks for that, was a fucking awesome simile though, I'll steal it for my writing...

Hahaha.

Quote from: Toshiko on March 11, 2014, 11:31:41 am
I loathe MP, and always have - especially in a game with CT. If you have CT, you already have your counterbalance. And when you have MP with skills that carry such a heavy cost that you can only use them 1-2 times PER BATTLE, it is totally crossing the line, by miles. If your battle system uses MP, I hate you. Use CT or cooldown instead of relying on a bullshit relic that should never have persisted into the 16-bit era, much less to present day.

I.. disagree, because from a developmental standpoint it makes it easier to balance stuff out. You have two things you can adjust to fine-tune it more (more than two, but strictly speaking on CT and MP). Whether or not Raven and Elric balanced it correctly* is another issue entirely.

*For what it's worth, I enjoyed it, as I said earlier.

Quote from: Elric on March 11, 2014, 04:13:37 am
O_o I still don't get it, I suck at these games, and I still never thought Jot5 was difficult, and I had nothing to do with the battles,
only the events. If you go in unprepared and never switch off to get Monk and/or Priest, well, You are meant to branch out.

The Alma battles (I really don't understand this) Since they were seriously made much easier.

I am anything BUT an expert and the only battle I had issues with extensively was Chicken Durbs. Everything else is balanced in a way
that is very beatable with proper planning.

I.. honestly don't get it either. The only battles I had any problems with (granted I kinda skipped the marks, for reasons that will become apparent in a moment) were Sweegy Woods and Ganon because I wanted to see the new jobs and grinded like a stripper on her pole after tax refund day. The monster growths really screwed me there (Ganon's goons one shot almost everyone with one Kotetsu, and the rest die in the next turn), but I'm sure that if I went through it again without excessive grinding that I could pull it off without too much trouble.

But like kyozo, I too am used to 1.3 by now. I never thought that Jot5 was nearly as hard as people are saying, but maybe that's just me. I do make the distinction between fun and unfun difficulty, and for the most part Jot5 was mostly in the realm of the former.

I rarely post here, but I was directed to this thread by a friend of mine who promised lulz. I wasn't disappointed.

Quote from: flowoftime on March 10, 2014, 12:10:41 pm
1. I could tolerate Gained JP Up is removed from most of the patch here in FF Hacktics or insanely derpy, but Limiting JP to 10 per Action is... lame... It will take years to Unlock Ninja Class and learned all the best skills. I dunno if there is any out there who want to waste their lives playing the patch under such condition just to make his characters match up to Sephiroth or Ganandorf. I wonder why did the mods usually say "You don't have a life or You have no life"?

Maybe this is just me, but it doesn't seem very feasible to be able to unlock every single job class and every single ability during Chapter 1 of an FFT mod. Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote from: flowoftime on March 10, 2014, 12:10:41 pm
2. Monster, both in Story and Random Battle is definitely broken, but the AI coding is somewhat stupid or should I say "sometimes". To equally match up your character with this broken Monster you need to:
A>Grind your "JP" not your "EXP" like hell, unlock the Tier 1 Job and learn best skills with 10 JP per Act condition.

OR

B>Abuse save and load states like I did(Assasinate and Finish Touch = 100% Non-Boss 1 ACT KILL).

OR

C>Make use of AI's stupidity and commence the "Hit and Run Strategy"(You hit from afar, provoke the enemy to come at you by their stupid AI Coding then gang-bang/rape them) which people in insanely derpy say "The Real Strategy".

Few things wrong with this train of thought, but the largest flaw (by far) is that you're assuming you have the same limitations the enemy does. You have something they don't have: it's called a human brain. No, this isn't a petty stab at your intelligence, I'm being serious.

I also wasn't going to comment on this particular part of your post, but your opinion regarding what we at insanely derpy call "The Real Strategy" is flawed, because it simply doesn't exist. Lots of people have a wide array of strategies for any given fight (I'm not talking about just 1.3; this extends to Jot5 and other FFT mods as well).

Quote from: flowoftime on March 10, 2014, 12:10:41 pm
I figure out that it would be useless for me or anyone here besides the Development Team to suggest any constructive idea, because in your mind/point of view the patch is already PERFECT and you always counter-reasoning any idea(I do read every thread here). So I see no point to ask you to do my homework. I don't say that your reasoning is bad. Your reasoning is good, but since you always reject any idea given by the users here, that logic comes to my mind.

As someone who has personally had conversations (regarding bugs, critiques, and what have you) with Raven one on one regarding Jot5 shortly after the Chapter 1 release, you're full of shit.

Quote from: flowoftime on March 10, 2014, 12:10:41 pm
I don't bother myself to watch your or anyone's video of how to win here... I'm a veteran FFT player and I got the hang of most Vanilla FFT mechanic. I have my own way to win the Story Battle with "Dirty Tricks" or "The Real Strategy" bragged by insanely derpy players.

Forgive me if I'm not convinced. I'll say again that you will not find anyone representative of insanely derpy that will ever brag about "The Real Strategy" simply because there isn't one.

Haha, will do.

I'll take a look see when I have the time; as I mentioned before I've got my own project (and two jobs irl, lel) so I can't really promise anything, but I'll definitely hit you (or Raven if I happen to get a hold of him first) up if I can help.