• Welcome to Final Fantasy Hacktics. Please login or sign up.
 
March 29, 2024, 01:02:35 am

News:

Use of ePSXe before 2.0 is highly discouraged. Mednafen, RetroArch, and Duckstation are recommended for playing/testing, pSX is recommended for debugging.


The Blue Mage

Started by old school, January 21, 2020, 07:15:02 pm

old school

January 21, 2020, 07:15:02 pm Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 09:18:46 am by old school Reason: Added Learn on Hit info
Old School's Blue Mage Schooling



There are several posts expressing interest in the Blue Mage.  Some ask for help, others... help, I guess... this one is for collaboration, as there are some things I've figured out, and others I haven't (and likely never will).

First and foremost, what is a Blue Mage?
While the Blue Mage has seen several iterations, two things have remained consistent...  monster magic and versatility, albeit after a lot of completionism and vulgarity.  A great number of resources can be found at https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Blue_Mage.  The oldest, and arguably most badass, Blue Mage was made available in FFV, and gained a wide array of magics, including Aqua Breath, Aero 1-3 (also sometimes categorized as White Magic), Parasite, Exploder, ????, White Wind, and many others.  This gave the Blue Mage some of the most powerful non-elemental spells, and access to efficient, potent buffs and curatives.  They also are able to hold their own with physical prowess, so like a Red Mage, but better.

I wanted to show my appreciation to Kagebunji & Mando as early in the post as possible, so it's worth noting that a Blue Mage sprite exists (http://ffhacktics.com/sprites.php?search=blue+mage) and, in addition to my son who loves Blue Mages, served as inspiration.  Thanks, Kagebunji, Mando, and Nightmare Child!

What do they wear?
Blue Mages, in their earliest incarnation, used Knives, Swords, and Rods, and wore Shields, Hats, Robes, and Clothes.  FFT and FFV maintain a pretty strong 1:1 in gear, save bells, boomerangs, and maybe one other.  Later Blue Mages were limited to sabers, drastically reducing coolness.

Does FFT support Blue Mage Mechanics?
Yes, "Learn on hit".

In FF6, Strago started with Aqua Rake (Breath), Revenge, and Stone.  To start with spells in FFT:
  • Set JP cost to 0
  • Uncheck "Learn with JP (Player)"
  • Check "Learn on Hit"

For the spells you want to have your Blue Mage learn through combat:
  • Set JP cost to 9999 (or possibly any non-zero value)
  • Uncheck "Learn with JP (Player)"
  • Check "Learn on Hit"

The rate is up to the modder.  You may want more powerful skills to be lower %, missables to be 100%, or both.

What Blue Magics already exist?
Luckily, Mr. School has provided a table with a ton of Blue Magic/Lores/Enemy Skills to cross reference.  Some spells exist only in name, while others are ready to go out of the box.

FF5, 6, and 7 Blue Magics/Enemy Skills to get your brain going

MagicAppears InDescriptionFFT Counterpart
DoomFF5, FF6, FF7Kills after 30 countDeath Sentence
RouletteFF5, FF6, FF7Death to random enemy/allyN/A
Aqua BreathFF5, FF6, FF7Originally non-elemental damage, but later became water-elemental for obvious reasons.N/A
Level 2 OldFF5
Level 3 ConfuseFF6
Level 3 FlareFF5
Level 4 FlareFF6
Level 4 GravigaFF5
Level 4 SuicideFF7Critical and Mini
Level 5 DeathFF5, FF6
Level ? HolyFF6Cast Holy on all enemies at a level divisible by ones digit of gil (0 & 1 hit all)
Frog SongFF5, FF7FF5: Inflicts Toad on one target
FF7: Also inflicts Sleep.
Black Magic Toad
Lilliputian LyricFF5Inflicts Mini on one targetN/A
FlashFF5Blind on all enemies
Time SlipFF5Old and Sleep on one targetN/A
Moon FluteFF5Inflicts Berserk on all allies
Death ClawFF5Critical and Paralyze to one target
AeroFF5Wind elemental magic
Aero 2FF5Wind elemental magic
Aero 3FF5Wind elemental magic
Flame ThrowerFF5, FF7Fire damage to one enemy
Goblin PunchFF5, FF7Ignore weapon effect.  Physical damage based on magical attack to one target.
8x damage on same level target.
Dark SparkFF5Halves the target's current level.
Off-GuardFF5Halves the target's Defense.
Transfusion*FF5FF5: Sacrifices the caster and fully restores one target's HP and MP...
FF6: and cures all status ailments.
None, formula hack below
Mind BlastFF5Deals non-elemental damage while inflicting Sap and Paralyze to one target.
VampireFF5Absorbs HP from target and restores caster's HP.
Magic HammerFF5, FF7FF5: Halves target's MP.
FF7: Drains 100 MP from one target and transfers the MP to the caster.
Mighty GuardFF5FF5: Protect, Shell, Float
FF6: Protect, Shell
FF7: Protect, Shell, Haste
Self-DestructFF5Current HP as damage to target, KOs casterSelf-Destruct
FF5: ????
FF6: Revenge
FF5Deals Max HP - current HP damage.Shock, Life Break
1000 NeedlesFF5, FF6Fixed Damage (1000)
White WindFF5, FF6, FF7FF5&6: Heal party for caster's current HP...
FF7: and cure status ailments.
MissileFF6Reduce target to 1/4 of its current HP.
LaserFF7Reduce target to 1/2 of its current HP.
Reflect???FF6Inflicts Blind, Slow, and Silence on all enemies with Reflect status.
Step MineFF6
Force FieldFF6Constructs a magic barrier that negates damage of a random element.
Bad BreathFF6Inflicts Blind, Poison, Imp, Confuse, Sleep, and Silence on one target.
RipplerFF6Target and caster exchange all positive and negative statuses.
StoneFF6Deals non-elemental damage and Confuse on one or more targets.
QuasarFF6Deals non-elemental damage on all enemies. Ignores defense.
Grand DeltaFF6Deals non-elemental damage on all enemies. Ignores defense.
Angel WhisperFF7Restores to target's maximum HP, and cures Death, Sleep, Poison, Confusion, Silence, Slow,
Stop, Frog, Small, Slow-numb, Petrify, Berserk, Paralysis, and Darkness to one target.

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<Patches>

  <Patch name="Form 21 - Transfusion">
    <Description>Heals HP and MP to target equal to MaxHP and MP from caster/ Deals MaxHP and MP DMG to caster</Description>
    <Location file="BATTLE_BIN" offset="1225F4">
1980023C
942D428C
1980033C
902D638C
2A004494
00000000
060064A4
2E004594
50000634
250066A0
0A0065A4
1980023C
8C2D428C
01000334
000043A0
040044A4
A0000634
250046A0
0800E003
080045A4
    </Location>
  </Patch>

</Patches>

Awesome, old school!  I'm going to jump in and make one!
Whoah, slow down.  First off, your enthusiasm is a little off-putting.  Second, here are all the things that have driven me to a life of self-loathing, courtesy of the Blue Mage:

1. The animations are super weird, since humans aren't monsters
When I Mimic Titan a guy's face off, my guy does a weird sword dance.  When I Exploder my best friend mid-battle, my guy does something that takes me back to middle school gym.  There is allegedly a method to reassign animations or have 2 sets of animations.

2. Blue Magic costs MP!
...but monsters' skills don't.  This creates a low degree of complexity but if you start to think "bro, I can't Osmose (FFV throwback, anyone?) a monster normally!" or "dude, Difference doesn't hurt monsters because no MP!" you start to get a feel for the unintended consequences of the re-balancing process.

Additionally, If a skill costs MP, the monsters will not use it if they lack the MP to do so (despite not requiring MP themselves to use them).

Don't care?  Then on to...
3. MP wasn't the beginning!
Human/humanoids have very low stats.  In contrast, their spells are very powerful.  Monsters, on the otherhand, have very high stats and weak skills.  If you are thinking weak human + weak skills = work, you nailed it.  How much work though?  If your second thought was to boost the stats of your Blue Mage, then you would deal tremendous damage with any other skill relying on the MA/PA stat.  Additionally, like with MP consequences, reducing the MA/PA of your monsters drastically increases the effectiveness of PA/MA breaks.  If your attack would have broken say... 6% of a monsters stat, maybe now you can break 18%.  That means weaker monsters that are more susceptible to a slightly larger array of FFT skills totally undermining the game's mechanics!  :shock:

In conclusion, to successfully implement the Blue Mage, you would need to
:v/: Rebalance all the stats of your monsters, accounting for MP consumption and MA/PA consequences
:v/: Get a nice list of versatile monster magics to fill your skill set (and make some of your own!)
:v/: Figure out how to
    • do conditional animations
    • animate them all as magics for player and monster, or
    • give up and still feel good about your crappy Macarena looking deal you do before blowing away a foe
:v/: Come up with a cool name!

SPOILER: It's "Old School".

Resources:
:v/: Sprite Sheets
:v/: Spreadsheet for Rebalancing Assistance

This post has been made possible by the members of this site.  Special thanks to:
Kagebunji
Mando
Nitwit
Heisho
Nyzer
Yamish
  • Modding version: PSX

Nyzer

An alternate animations spreadsheet exists, we use it for Jot5 to allow monsters and humans to have different animations for the same skill. Unsure if it's public.

Monster skillsets do indeed not consume MP, but this isn't actually that much of an issue. This is a function of their skillset type and has nothing to do with the actual skills themselves. And they will still use MP damaging skills if they will cancel enemy spell charging or if they aren't in range for anything else since the AI hates Wait, so they will still use skills like Osmose under certain conditions.

Plus they do HAVE MP, so Osmose can still be used ON them.

Look at Jot5 for an example of a mod with Blue Magic.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

old school

This is the reason for this post. I have been struggling for so long, and I figured this would turn up some resources. I'd love to check those out.

As for Absorb/Osmose, monsters have almost no MP. I play almost never, and haven't modded in a long time due to life, but can't you only drain what your enemy has? If so, a Chocobo with 5MP max will only yield 5MP.
  • Modding version: PSX

3lric

We have both red and blue mage in Jot5 :D
  • Modding version: PSX

Nyzer

Monster MP Growth is set very high across the board, and the higher they're set the worse they grow. I haven't tested this but I'd assume that if you lowered them to near-human levels they'd be better. Though you'd have to keep in mind that human MP is very dependent on equipped gear, too.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

old school

Elric, there's a disturbing lack of passive aggression in your posts these days!  :lol:

For real, though, any tips you guys have, I'd like to kinda aggregate it all and help out with what I can.  Less questions for you guys means more time you can spend doing pro level mods. These posts today are just to get initial thoughts on paper so other people can take advantage of my progress and failures (which are quite abundant).
  • Modding version: PSX

old school

Quote from: Nyzer on January 22, 2020, 12:03:28 am
Monster MP Growth is set very high across the board, and the higher they're set the worse they grow.


Exactly. But more MP means draining can be more effective. Personally, it's not something I'd spend a ton of time on, but I'd rather enumate all the possibilities for the next person that cares for maybe a more genuine experience. I think we're probably THINKING the same thing, Nyzer. I'm just trying to call out all the possible pitfalls.
  • Modding version: PSX

yamish

Quote from: old school on January 22, 2020, 12:12:37 am
Exactly. But more MP means draining can be more effective. Personally, it's not something I'd spend a ton of time on, but I'd rather enumate all the possibilities for the next person that cares for maybe a more genuine experience. I think we're probably THINKING the same thing, Nyzer. I'm just trying to call out all the possible pitfalls.


One pitfall not mentioned is that though monsters don't consume MP, if they don't have enough for a skill, they won't use it. So if you put Ice 2 on a mindflare, it'll use it and not consume MP. But if you osmose its MP down, it will no longer use Ice 2. Now osmose type skills suddenly become almost exploitative when fighting certain monsters.
  • Modding version: PSX & WotL
  • Discord username: riggz raggz

Heisho

Hello there!

In my patch I'm using skills that doesn't rely on MA except for accuracy. Emmy created a lot of formulas that can be used for this purpose (i'm using various formula hacks from her set).
As from me, I created a functional formula for Transfusion. Combined with ARH to be used only on critical.

Enjoy:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<Patches>

  <Patch name="Form 21 - Transfusion">
    <Description>Heals HP and MP to target equal to MaxHP and MP from caster/ Deals MaxHP and MP DMG to caster</Description>
    <Location file="BATTLE_BIN" offset="1225F4">
1980023C
942D428C
1980033C
902D638C
2A004494
00000000
060064A4
2E004594
50000634
250066A0
0A0065A4
1980023C
8C2D428C
01000334
000043A0
040044A4
A0000634
250046A0
0800E003
080045A4
    </Location>
  </Patch>

</Patches>


  • Modding version: PSX
Grrr, arwg, hiss, and some other zombie noises...
  • Discord username: Heisho

old school

Quote from: yamish on January 23, 2020, 07:35:26 am
One pitfall not mentioned is that though monsters don't consume MP, if they don't have enough for a skill, they won't use it. So if you put Ice 2 on a mindflare, it'll use it and not consume MP. But if you osmose its MP down, it will no longer use Ice 2. Now osmose type skills suddenly become almost exploitative when fighting certain monsters.


@yamish Thanks for the heads up!  It definitely changes things.  Any idea how that affects adding MP to the monster skills that already exist?

Quote from: Heisho on January 26, 2020, 06:37:07 pm
Hello there!

In my patch I'm using skills that doesn't rely on MA except for accuracy. Emmy created a lot of formulas that can be used for this purpose (i'm using various formula hacks from her set).
As from me, I created a functional formula for Transfusion. Combined with ARH to be used only on critical.

Enjoy:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<Patches>

  <Patch name="Form 21 - Transfusion">
    <Description>Heals HP and MP to target equal to MaxHP and MP from caster/ Deals MaxHP and MP DMG to caster</Description>
    <Location file="BATTLE_BIN" offset="1225F4">
1980023C
942D428C
1980033C
902D638C
2A004494
00000000
060064A4
2E004594
50000634
250066A0
0A0065A4
1980023C
8C2D428C
01000334
000043A0
040044A4
A0000634
250046A0
0800E003
080045A4
    </Location>
  </Patch>

</Patches>





@Heisho Mind if I add that to my evergrowing first post?  Thanks a lot for the idea/formula!
  • Modding version: PSX

Heisho

Quote from: old school on January 27, 2020, 08:32:30 am
@Heisho Mind if I add that to my evergrowing first post?  Thanks a lot for the idea/formula!


Not at all. There is not much I can offer, but at least is something.
  • Modding version: PSX
Grrr, arwg, hiss, and some other zombie noises...
  • Discord username: Heisho

yamish

Quote from: old school on January 27, 2020, 08:32:30 am
@yamish Thanks for the heads up!  It definitely changes things.  Any idea how that affects adding MP to the monster skills that already exist?


As far as I know it works the same. They'll use the skills if they have enough mp, but won't consume mp. But won't use the skills if there isn't enough mp present.
  • Modding version: PSX & WotL
  • Discord username: riggz raggz

Timbo

http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=11211.0

Some of Emmy's ASM might be of use here. The real problem behind introducing Blue Magic is that monster skills and monster stats aren't balanced for human's stat scaling. I'd you want to do a proper blue mage you'll want to rebalance monsters. There's an ASM that gives monsters the attack skill. Irc, it will also make it so Monsters use MP for their skills. If you do this, you'll need to shift their growth and you'll probably want to repurpose their basic physical attacks into something else because they'll become redundant.

I'm just warning that trying this is opening a whole can of worms.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Timbo

Vanya

A can of worms whose tackling would be much appreciated by many, I'm sure. ;)
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
¯\(°_0)/¯

Gordon_Ramza

Looking through the FF Wikia pages on FFT Monster Skills (https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Tactics_abilities), I was able to make a skill set that only uses skills already in FFT. I personally gave it 5 skills that fit into 3 of the 4 main schools of magic (White, Black, and Green/Mystic. There aren't many Monster Skills that fit into Time Magic).

Green:
Doom
Bad Breath
Dischord
Level Drain
Zombie Touch

White:
Choco Cure
Squeak
Choco Esuna
Magic Nymph
Lick

Black:
Choco Meteor
Fire Breath
Ice Breath
Thunder Breath
Nanoflare
  • Modding version: PSX
The fact there is a character named Beowulf and a family named Beoulve seems pretty stupid. It is not Ramza Beowulf or Beoulve Cadmus/Kadmas.

3lric

Quote from: Timbo on January 28, 2020, 09:24:16 am
http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=11211.0

Some of Emmy's ASM might be of use here. The real problem behind introducing Blue Magic is that monster skills and monster stats aren't balanced for human's stat scaling. I'd you want to do a proper blue mage you'll want to rebalance monsters. There's an ASM that gives monsters the attack skill. Irc, it will also make it so Monsters use MP for their skills. If you do this, you'll need to shift their growth and you'll probably want to repurpose their basic physical attacks into something else because they'll become redundant.

I'm just warning that trying this is opening a whole can of worms.


I mean, i dont remember it being too incredibly difficult to setup the Blue Mage in Jot5... most people seemed to really enjoy it

We didnt use any of Emmys ASMs, but we also had Pride, Xifanie, Choto, Glain and Pokeytax work on different parts of Jot5, so maybe something was made for this to accomodate that. Or maybe it was just the way Raven balanced it.
  • Modding version: PSX

Nyzer

I think it's mostly to do with the rebalancing and ability formulas. Jot5 rethinks damage as a whole and the blue magic skills are mostly made up of abilities that won't be significantly affected by having less MA.

But yeah, if you just look at what Jot5 does for monsters, it really shouldn't take a lot of work to make blue magic viable. Jot5's monsters have one attack skill that nearly always inflicts a status effect, one strong/useful skill, the blue magic of their family tree, and a variety of innate RSM.

One easy example would be that someone could simply set up that second skill to be either physical or not really affected by MA, then make almost all blue magic MA based, then decrease monster MA across the board so it's closer to human MA.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

Timbo

Quote from: Elric on February 15, 2020, 06:17:30 pm
I mean, i dont remember it being too incredibly difficult to setup the Blue Mage in Jot5... most people seemed to really enjoy it

We didnt use any of Emmys ASMs, but we also had Pride, Xifanie, Choto, Glain and Pokeytax work on different parts of Jot5, so maybe something was made for this to accomodate that. Or maybe it was just the way Raven balanced it.


You know me, I have a flair for the dramatic. 😬 The average user however probably doesn't want to rebalance the MA is most of the monsters and their abilities to make them functional for a single job. Adding a Blue Mage works better as part of an overall patch. Jot5 is a perfect example of the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Also, ASM hacks are absolutely not necessary either for any of it.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Timbo

old school

@Timbo I specifically call out the rebalancing. I do actually need to restructure the original post, though, so I'm open to recommendations on format. Not to point the finger, but did you miss it? Should I move it up in the post?

Quote from: old school on January 21, 2020, 07:15:02 pmIn conclusion, to successfully implement the Blue Mage, you would need to
:v/: Rebalance all the stats of your monsters, accounting for MP consumption and MA/PA consequences
:v/: Get a nice list of versatile monster magics to fill your skill set (and make some of your own!)
:v/: Figure out how to
     • do conditional animations
     • animate them all as magics for player and monster, or
     • give up and still feel good about your crappy Macarena looking deal you do before blowing away a foe
:v/: Come up with a cool name!
  • Modding version: PSX

Timbo

Quote from: old school on February 20, 2020, 10:08:27 am@Timbo I specifically call out the rebalancing. I do actually need to restructure the original post, though, so I'm open to recommendations on format. Not to point the finger, but did you miss it? Should I move it up in the post?

Looks like it.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Timbo