FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[CT5Holy]

Damned:

Charm doesn't need to be any more painful than it already is. So what if it's pretty underwhelming if you Charm someone who can get rid of it - it's still a wasted turn, and it can cancel a charge, which is very relevant even if the Charmed unit doesn't end up hurting its own team.

1. And if the unit does run away and you can't kill it, there's a good chance it'll get healed up by its teammates and be back in the fight. Don't Move keeps the unit there so you can finish it off, and also keeps the resser around to get hit by AoE. Dead units also don't get turns.
Now, Raise 2 does mean the unit will be back at full HP and likely immediately able to do something, but the resser being nearby to get hit with AoE damage is still relevant.

2. Exactly - Don't Move punishes melee units because now they can't move to hit their targets.
Yes, although these units do have ranged attacks in their skillset, they won't always have them (ex. for Monks, Stigma Magic, Chakra, and Revive are priorities), but more importantly, because they can't move, they have less effective range. Could be very important to prevent them from sniping a critical unit and what not.

3. Instead of being able to heal/revive/cure status from a more important unit, they're stuck wasting a turn removing Don't Move (assuming them have Bandage), and then will most likely run away from the unit that needs healing/revival/status cleansed. That's not good for that team.

4. There are plenty more situations of Don't Move being a bigger problem than Poison. Like keeping a unit stuck in place so it'll get hit by an AoE spell or something. There. Yet another situation. And I'm sure there are still more.

5. Um, I think it's very relevant because it clearly shows why Don't Move is more dangerous than Poison. I suppose it's an extreme example, but still.
Also, the Hunting Bows never did good damage. Enough to anti-sandbag, really.

Poison isn't particularly threatening because it only does a bit of damage at a very slow rate. It might kill someone in critical, if they don't get healed up. Yes, it will be more interesting since it persists after death in the next update, but it only hurts Reraise, PD, and Wish. Also, as someone else mentioned before, units afflicted with poison still have a turn to heal themselves up.

[The Damned]

(I'd lying if I said I wanted to get into an argument right now, but so be it. I'll look for the Ribbon stuff later.)

Since this is all status-related stuff, I'll just use three points here rather than responding to those five with regards to Don't Move again:

1. Charm: Charm eating up a turn is "something" I suppose and it's like I'm going to argue that Charm isn't extremely dangerous otherwise, but at the same time, it kinda obviates the point of even having Block Charm gear given how ubiquitous those techniques are. This seems even more true when Charm is easily cured by basically any type of damage no matter how small, including the soon-to-be-buffed Poison. I don't think it's asking for much for at least one of them to not cure Charm and maybe even cure Undead so that they can differ a bit. They already heal a ton of stuff, which was more the point (that adds insult to injury) rather than the fact they cure Charm or the miscommunication that I don't think Charm is dangerous; I just don't think it should be cured by the very person it's been inflicted upon.


2. Poison: I never said Poison was all that great as it was now. Even lasting infinitely long, it never saw much use. That's because a) it was primarily on a crappy Skill Set and b) it did damage slowly over time, but was cancelled upon death, so it was basically an inferior form of Death Sentence. Even now, though, at least some people have been using Kiyomori (if only because it also Blinds) and it's not like Shuriken hasn't seen use specifically to Poison people on top its minimal damn. Considering that both those things are changing and that Poison lasting beyond death will screw over more than just those three things, Poison is hardly going to be as weak still; it might potentially be quite the opposite considering even more things are going to be adding it now and how the Critical AI acts, meaning it might very easily impact every form of resurrection save for the Raise spells, which hardly needed more help.

(Speaking of those three things, it's kinda another thing bugs me: you honestly can't say that Wish anything but collateral damage because, honestly, you can't say with a straight-face that Wish needs to be weaker.)

Regardless, I'm comparing (Time Mage's) Don't Move to what Poison is becoming, not how Poison currently is. Even what little use Time Mage's Don't Move has ever seen in ARENA, yeah, Don't Move would of course still stronger be than current Poison.


3. Don't Move: "Enough to anti-sandbag" isn't "good" damage on single-target, simple physical attack? I'm not sure what is then considering quite a few solo-hitting things can't anti-sandbag. It's not like all teams have (damaging) AoE or that their AoE goes off and hits more than one unit, even if there is a unit that's trying to revive another; the only revival that's really vulnerable to AoE is Revive since more often than not, Item-Bots use Throw Item if they're not a Chemist.

As for three other points, isn't a negative status supposed to inconvenient those it hits? Isn't that problem with Poison at present? That the AI generally doesn't have to give a damn it's been Poisoned? So what if an Item-Bot wastes a turn healing itself of Don't Move and it's not good for that Item-Bot's team? As a negative status, it's not supposed to be.

Seriously, I know you're trying to argue Don't Move is "more dangerous" than Poison, but you seem to be doing solely along the lines of current Poison and pseudo-blaming Don't Move doing exactly what it supposed to do to be actually threatening. Much like Charm, I never said Don't Move is toothless; it shouldn't be. I just didn't see it as more dangerous than what Poison is potentially becoming, as time will tell, and I still don't.

In the IRC, it was decided by FFMaster to call the Back abilities after those of Malak's skills in WotL.

IE:
Nether Fire
Nether Bolt
Nether Ice
Nether Water

Oh, I see. I'm more than fine with this.

In comparison to "Fire 2", Salamander would offer +1 AoE at the cost of +8 MP, +2 CT, and +50 JP.  Oil aside, I think this is a fair price.

That's right.  Oil immunity would replace the idle Blood Suck immunity.  Strengthening all elements is fine and all, but under the current trend to power up all accessories, it's a pricey use of an accessory slot.  Players are already using weapons, shields, and armor to strengthen elements whenever possible.  Now that we are buffing mantles and keeping perfumes around, I predict that players will go on doing this.  The Oil immunity is a tiny, but significant buff.

Alternatively, we can "reinvent" Defense Ring and Diamond Armlet to something like:

Coral Ring: Absorb: Water, Immune: Poison, Oil, Frog
Gaia Ring: Absorb: Earth, Immune: Berserk, Sleep, Dead

The Coral Ring becomes an imperfect "anti-wizard" accessory, and the Gaia Ring inherits the Defense Ring's role as the "anti-mediator" accessory.  (I changed Death Sentence immunity to Death immunity above, since Death immunity implies Death Sentence immunity; it makes the accessory a little more useful.)  Both accessories have absorption on the side so that teams can do something else with them when they're not up against the relevant job.  We might want to find Diamond Armlet's now-homeless Slow immunity a new piece of equipment in this case.

I'll be laconic here just because my eyes are starting to hurt even with the walk I went on.

1. Salamander: You have a point.


2. 108 Gems: I'm fine with it still Strengthening All Elements if blocks four things since that honestly hasn't helped it before now.


3. Coral Ring and Gaia Ring: I'm fine those, though perhaps Coral Ring should block Slow instead of Poison or Oil if 108 Gems also blocks Poison, Oil and Frog. They both block all three, but it's just an option, especially since it keeps its "Anti-Wizard" theme since Ice 2 potentially adds Slow now.


4. What to do with Block Slow otherwise: Well, given Raven said something about having thought what to do with the Gauntlets, the only things that are really left that could "take it" are Sprint Shoes (& Sasuke Knife), which would make sense, and Salty Rage (& Genji Helmet), which would make them more desirable. You could go with both, actually, since it's kinda toss-up, or neither, since I'm sure that something else could sensibly block Slow. I wonder if we'll ever get any accessory that blocks Faith or Innocent, though those aren't pressing concerns with the raising need to block Poison and Oil.

[CT5Holy]

Damned, I think you're misinterpreting me. Like I don't understand the 'pseudo-blaming Don't Move for doing its job' part. I think that I am indeed showing why Don't Move is worse than Poison for the very reasons that you're pointing out. Don't Move is very much inconveniencing the other team. It inconveniences them much more than Poison does. We both seem to agree about this.

I also do note how I think things might be different with new Poison, and I still stand by that Don't Move is more threatening. I could also be very wrong here, but hey. Time will tell.

[Gaignun]

Here are a few more proposals:

1. Reduce the JP cost of Critical Quick from 350 to 300.  It's overpriced to begin with.  Speed Save is getting a mild buff, so this skill should be made more attractive to keep in step.

2. Reduce Demi's MP cost from 20 to 12.  Tier 2 Wizard spells routinely do more than 33% HP damage, cost half as much JP, cost less MP, and have an easier time going through M-EV.  At 33% damage, mages are going to keep on keeping their distance from Demi, but low-MA jobs that typically don't have huge MP pools might come forward.

3. Change Demi 2's MP cost from 40 to 24, damage from 66% to 50%, and Y value from 65 to 75.  The current Demi 2 is way too expensive for its low hit rate.  The lower MP cost and higher Y value intend to make Demi 2 usable, as well as give players another sorely-needed reason to consider equipping a mantle (which we are incidentally buffing) instead of Setiemson by default.  Damage is reduced in compensation.

Proposals 2 and 3 here, in concert with the proposal for Lich on the previous page, are designed to transfer power from Setiemson's auto-shell to mantles' and shields' M-EV. 

4. Increase Asura's Q value from 6 to 7.  This makes it worth the 200 JP price tag it shares with Koutetsu and Heaven's Cloud.

5. Make Punch Art's damage formulae linear.  This removes the requirement to stack PA to to deal appreciable damage.  Stated another way, this allows we designers to make Punch Art more accessible without having to worry about damage being pushed too high at the extreme.  This is best visualised in the form of a plot:

spoiler: Plot

Spin Fist's formula is 11*PA.  Wave Fist's is 13*PA.  The current and proposed curves are equal at 22 PA in both cases.  The Q values could even be lower.

The maximum attainable effective PA in the next patch will be 29.  This puts Wave Fist well into into 1HKO territory.  This will only be exacerbated with Warpath.  By making the formulae linear, we clip off this high-PA region, where only Monks reside, and buff the low-PA region, where everyone else resides, and viola: Spin Fist, Repeating Fist, Wave Fist, and Earth Slash become useful to more than one class.  Not only will making the formulae linear help us avoid 1HKO shenanigans, but also place less of an emphasis on stacking PA to begin with.  You calculus buffs out there should readily know that the dependent variable is present in the first derivative of a quadratic formula.  Here that means that your damage bonus gets higher for every additional PA you stack.  On the other hand, the first derivative of a linear formula is constant, so there is no such incentive to stack PA.  Hence, players will find it easier to equip items other than Bracers and so on when making DPS Punch Art units.  (Most will probably move on to Cherche, but that says more about Cherche than the linear formulae.)

[Barren]

I agree with Gaignun on Critical Quick being lowered to 300. Not often do you see a critical quick being used because of JP cap. And I would like to see a team (besides Celdia) that can use critical quick effectively.

No complaints if Demi and Demi 2's MP cost is lowered with slightly higher hit rate. (I still think Golden Hairpin plays a good role there) Also back to 50% sounds more fair than 66%

Asura I guess could use a bit of a perk from MA*6 to 7. But definitely keep it enemy only

Just one question about Punch Art Gaignun: Are you saying that you don't necessarily need Martial Arts to do better Punch Art damage where Spin Fist is PA*11 or something like that?

[Gaignun]

Just one question about Punch Art Gaignun: Are you saying that you don't necessarily need Martial Arts to do better Punch Art damage where Spin Fist is PA*11 or something like that?

Well, Martial Arts will still give you better damage.  Its damage bonus will simply become linear, leading to a weaker need for it.

[Barren]

Well, Martial Arts will still give you better damage.  Its damage bonus will simply become linear, leading to a weaker need for it.

I see so it'll go hand in hand regardless what you choose.

[Reks]

Random idea I had for either one or two shields as alternates to Setiemson and Cherche, or one shield with both and a debuff to balance it

Protect Targe- Always: Protect
Shell Shield- Always: Shell

Or them mixed:
Barrier (or Wall) Shield- Always: Protect, Shell -Initial: Don't Act or Slow

[Barren]

It can replace Platina Shield since really no one actually uses it

[RavenOfRazgriz]

I have no problems with anything Gaignun proposed, though I really need to re-accumulate changes again and reply to something I'm sure I haven't.  I've just had lots of RL issues and not enough time.  I'm also for making Punch Art no longer be quadratic - nothing else is, and while it makes Punch Art "unique", it polarizes it as Gaignun also mentioned.  Fists were made PA*9 for the same reason, so Punch Art skills can be given proper Ys instead too, personally.  Though Monks only cap at 28 PA, not 29.  It makes a noticeable difference in damage so it's worth mentioning.  They previously capped at 27 PA.  Remember Martial Arts rounds down, not up, and they still can only use 1 FS Bag if they want the Martial Arts bonus.

As for what Reks mentioned, I can't support that at all.  An Initial: X debuff is basically a worthless debuff if you tried to make it one item, and honestly, Shields are intentionally not that "good."  They let you absorb an element or gain a stat point or some other random thing but it's rarely very high-powered, so the things that Reks mentioned would not fit the role of a Shield at all.

[Gaignun]

I'm also going to go with a "no" for the protect/shell shields.  Protect trumps P-EV 9 times out of 10, and it's going to get even better when Concentrate enters the scene.  A protect shield will overshadow the rest.  Likewise for the shell shield.

[Reks]

Well, I understand why it'd be a bad idea now, but I forgot to mention to put that because of Protect/and or Shell, the shield would have no evasion to them

[CT5Holy]

And guess what, people would still run the Protect/Shell shields over the others, even with no evasion.

[Reks]

Right. It made sense in my head before, plus it would have given more of a use to Shield Break. But i'm just being unhelpful. Hrm......


Nope, can't think of anything else I've noticed that Master Raven, Gaignun, and CT5 have already gotten covered. Now just to wait for this to cement and mess with the new stuff.

[Barren]

Yes sorry Reks but even I know that they usually know what they're talking about when it comes to re-balancing equips and such

[Reks]

I did post fully expecting to get shot down, and so I did.

[Gaignun]

Gaignun here with a few more numbers to bore everyone with.

I foresee Black Magic's Nether tier being underwhelming.  In comparison to the "new" tier 1 spells, Nether spells cost +50 JP, +50% MP (except Bolt; did you mean 25 MP for Nether Bolt, Raven?) and do not have a status proc.  For this price, the tier gets to use its targets' low Brave against them, which, as Raven pointed out, maximises its damage against a wider variety of units.  I would like to argue that this feature is not worth the price.  Bear with me here.

With +1 Y, Fire, Ice, and Bolt will always deal more damage if the target has more than 56, 58, and 59 Faith, respectively.  These are pretty standard Faith values for teams that rely on magic for healing.  (Well, more like ~50-55 faith, but whatever.)  In other words, Fire, Ice, and Bolt are generally good investments in spite of whatever Brave value the targets may have.  Bear in mind that Nether spells break even at these Faith values in terms of damage alone.  The two spell types do not break even on all fronts: Nether spells are still more expensive to learn and cast and cannot inflict status ailments.  At progressively lower Faith values, the Nether spells begin to make up for this cost.  In their most favourable case (40 Brave 40 Faith), Nether Fire, Ice, and Bolt deal +22.5%, +24.4%, and +26.0% damage, respectively (around +1.4-2.1 HP damage per XA).  I believe its added cost is worth it at only this extreme - this makes the Nether tier pretty niche.  Start adding either Brave or Faith, and players will begin choosing Tier 1 over Nether.  Add in the facts that 40 Br/Fa targets are relatively rare as of late, that Brave and Faith can only increase in battle, and that Tier 1 can at least inflict a status ailment if all else fails, and it becomes easy to see how Tier 1 is the better investment.

My message here is that these added costs make the Nether tier too weak in its own right.  Indeed, its damage is maximised against a wider variety of units, but this damage still tends to be the smaller of the two.  Its cost spoils its utility.  Here are three suggestions for making the two tiers more competitive:

1. Remove its Y penalty.  In this case, one may claim that the Nether tier's damage is not only maximised, but also higher on a wider variety of units than Tier 1. The cost of this added utility is higher MP and JP costs and lack of a status proc.  This seems fair.  Its wide applicability should not be overstated, however.   Tier 1 still has its status procs and cheaper MP cost, making it the better choice at equal damage (eg. against the quintessential 40 Br/70 Fa mage,) and it becomes absolutely better the moment targets raise their Faith beyond 70.

2. Drop its CT from 3 to 2, which would lure players toward it for speed of casting, if not for niche team counters.

3. Drop its JP cost from 150 to 100.  This is the weakest of the three suggestions.  The Nether tier will still have its niche application, but players will at least have an easier time adding it "on the side" lest they encounter derpy 40 Br/40 Fa teams.

My vote is for suggestion #1.

Moving on, Ultima can use a buff, can't it?  If we're going to entice players to put Basic Skill on an MA-based unit, we need to do it with more than Faith-independent damage.  For that there's already Draw Out.  Boosting its power might not be the best way about it.  Would removing its Charge Time or slashing its MP cost in half upset anyone?

Right. It made sense in my head before, plus it would have given more of a use to Shield Break. But i'm just being unhelpful. Hrm......

New suggestions are never unhelpful!

[CT5Holy]

1. As Gaignun said, hearing new ideas is always good.
2. Numbers aren't boring!
3. Taking a quick look through recent teams, it seems like 40 Brave isn't as common as I thought, so I'm fine with suggestion #1.
4. Removing Ultima's charge time is asking for trouble. There would be little risk in running a max damage setup because the Ultima caster would be 5-6 panels away.
Halving its MP cost and having its JP cost cut from 350 to 300 seems good enough. Maybe CT down to 4 as well, but certainly at least the first two. We don't need to drastically buff Ultima because of its high damage potential.

[Eternal]

Out of sheer curiosity, has anyone tried Ultima on Wizards/Scholars yet?

[TrueLight]

Out of sheer curiosity, has anyone tried Ultima on Wizards/Scholars yet?

One of my past teams (I think it was Merciless Embrace) had a Wizard with Ultima. The damage was moderate considering that my Wizard had 15 MA, but I was running Short Charge instead of Magic Attack UP so the damage wasn't very lethal (135 damage per Ultima). Overall, 30 MP was not worth the spell  If I remember correctly, there was another team that had Bards with Ultima, but I don't remember how well they did in battle.