Ninja Skillset Discussion

[PX_Timefordeath]

Good news everyone! Thanks to Zodiac's Generic Skillset Fix, we can now get rid of shitty throw and replace it with something worthwhile. Bring on the suggestions.

Current Abilities:

Nightslayer - Deals 75% of targets max HP in damage. Target must be alseep, and cannot be undead.
<unnamed> - SP*PA non-elemental damage, 5 range
Katon - SP*PA Fire damage, 5 range
Raiton - SP*PA Lightning damage, 5 range
Suiton - SP*PA Water damage, 5 range
Shadowstrike- Deals Dark damage to an enemy and Blinds. Weapon strikes, if I can make it do that.
Shinobi's Seal- Either Poisons, Silences, or Blinds surrounding units.

[Patri]

Keeping in with the Ninja theme, how about Poison Dart - Range 5, Instant Cast, Poisons Target

[The Damned]

As I said in the Lancer thread, remind me to commend Zodiac when I'm more awake.

Although, I have to point out that this probably means Catch must die since it will be even more useless than Finger Guard (which is saying something). A more than fair trade if Ninja can be made into some interesting.

For the moment, I'll leave the link to Ninja's page on FFCompendium here. Unlike Dragoon, this one probably isn't too helpful since, like Thieves, Ninja don't have much variety in most games. They mostly focus on elements when they're not throwing things, but that kind of steps on Black Mage's toes. Ironically, it might ultimately be best to borrow from FFTA and just use a bunch of the veils with some other stuff.

[Skip Sandwich]

so, low single target elemental damage + status? so compared to geomancers, ninjas have flexibility of choice, at the cost of mp costs and CT, while Geomancers have free instant AoE, at the cost of choice. seems pretty fair to me, so long as the damage potential of the various ninja veil don't stray too far from geomancy level damage.

[FFMaster]

Added
<unnamed> - PA*12 non-elemental damage, 5 range
Katon - PA*10 Fire damage, 5 range
Raiton - PA*10 Lightning damage, 5 range
Suiton - PA*10 Water damage, 5 range

These are mostly to keep the people who like old Throw better slightly happier, and well, they can have some good uses. Numbers will need to be tweaked. Probably too strong at the moment.

Shadowstrike- Deals Dark damage to an enemy and Blinds. Weapon strikes, if I can make it do that.
Shinobi's Seal- Either Poisons, Silences, or Blinds surrounding units.

Thanks to Eternal.

[Gotwald]

seems pretty fair to me, so long as the damage potential of the various ninja veil don't stray too far from geomancy level damage.

If the skills are made to be MA based, it shouldn't be a problem.

[Melancthon]

Katon - PA*10 Fire damage, 5 range
Raiton - PA*10 Lightning damage, 5 range
Suiton - PA*10 Water damage, 5 range

Just a heads up, the Abilities thread still shows these abilities as being weapon elemental

[The Damned]

Okay, so I'm still looking at the FFCompendium page that I linked to a couple of days ago, I think that I've come up with some things. It depends on whether we want to go the Throw route or the Veil route.

I'll do the Throw Route since we're apparently going with that first:

spoiler

• Tsukiyomi - Deals 75% of targets max HP in damage. Target must be inflicted with Sleep. Will not harm target if Undead. Unevadable.
• Muton - PA * 10 non-elemental damage, 4 range. Evadable.
• Katon - PA * 8 Fire damage, 4 range. Evadable.
• Raiton - PA * 8 Lightning damage, 4 range. Evadable.
• Suiton - PA * 8 Water damage, 4 range. Evadable.
• Kageken - Weapon-range Dark-elemental attack with a 25% chance of inflicting Blindness. Evadable.
• Shinobi's Seal - Either Poisons, Silence or Don't Acts surrounding units in an AoE of 2 w/ v2. Undiscriminating.
• Iai - Range-1 weapon attack (preferably needing a Ninja Sword or Katana) with a 25% chance to inflict Death Sentence.
• Kamikaze - Wind-elemental (?) single-target Self-Destruct attack that tears down all barriers (Cancel: Protect, Shell, Reflect). Unevadable.

Eh, Kamikaze is probably OP because of Equip Armor (fucking Equip Armor), but I think the 'tons are more balanced since PA is much easier to come by than Sp ever was (in AI tournaments at least).

I obviously view the Throw type of Ninja as very aggressive. The Veil Ninja, on the other hand, is more like hit and run type unit. Probably best to use Geomancer's formula 24 [Dmg_((PA+Y)/2*MA)] for "Veils"/'ton since just using straight MA would be...troublesome. They'll be single-targeting, need a stronger Y variable than Geomancer's and use some MP. However, beyond that I'm not sure whether they should have a charge time or be evadable. All "Veils"/'tons should be 5 range IMO.

spoiler

• Tsukiyomi - Deals 49% of targets max HP in damage. Target must be inflicted with Sleep. Will not harm target if Undead. Unevadable.
• Dokumori - Non-elemental damage with a 25% chance of Poison, Zombie or Sleep, 4 range. Higher Y than the 'tons.
• Katon - Fire-elemental damage with a 25% chance of Blind.
• Raiton - Lightning-elemental damage with a 25% chance of Don't Act.
• Suiton - Water-elemental damage with a 25% chance of Don't Move.
• Doton - Earth-elemental damage with a 25% chance of Stop.
• Huton - Wind-elemental damage with a 25% chance of Silence or Sleep.
• Hyoton - Ice-elemental damage with a 25% chance of Slow.
• Mukage - Weak Dark-elemental range-1 physical/weapon attack with a 100% chance to Blind. Evadable.

Meh, Mukage is kind of tacked on, but I can't really think of anything else to give them, especially when everything else they have revolves around damage + status and Confusion & Death Sentence still make the computer completely stupid.

I'm welcome to any suggestions and/or criticisms, especially considering that Ninja are dead in my patch.

[ffta707]

This is great. I like the "Elemental" type abilities. This extra job will be a definite pro to this patch.

[FFMaster]

Ok, Shuriken, Katon, Raiton and Suiton might be changed to use Malak's Untruth Formula

Dmg ((100-CasF)*(100-TarF)*(MA+Y)*MA/2) #Hit(Rdm{1,X})

X is set to 1. Y is set to 25 for Shuriken, and 20 for the other 3. M evadable.

If we use this, we would need to pump Ninja MA up a fair bit, they can do maybe 40 damage with these right now. A Wizard on the other hand, can get to about 200 damage max (assuming neutral compat).

[The Damned]

Eh, I would rather not have to raise Ninja MA, especially if we're going the Throw route.

Why are we considering changing the formula anyway? What formula are you currently using?

[Skip Sandwich]

currently they appear to be using the Work formula, which does not accept elemental flags.

[FFMaster]

Right now, the only PA based formula without WP or MA in it and can take elements is:

31 - Dmg_((PA+Y)/2*PA) : This is the Wave Fist formula, and is boosted by Attack UP(*4/3) and Martial Arts(*3/2)

[FFMaster]

Shuriken, Katon, Raiton and Suiton are now SP*PA, are evadable and have elements.

[The Damned]

Seems like the best compromise considering you obviously want to go the Throw route and using formula 31 just means that Monks would be than Ninja at their own skillset (though they easily still could be).

Have you decided on what the variables should be for Throws, FFMaster?

[FFMaster]

Variables? There are no variables, its just direct SP*PA damage right now.