Final Fantasy Hacktics

Let's keep here inside the ideas, suggestions, and discussions for the next community patch.

I'll gladly start with my suggestions


Squire-knight hybrid

creating a squire-knight hybrid would give us extra space for adding other classes to the lot and would take off some of the redundancy of these classes. Growth on the likes of squire, speed of squire, PA growth of knight,
3 move and 3 jump.

Can equip swords, knives, knightly swords. light and heavy armours, no robes.

abilities learnable are the same.. squire+knight
reaction: weapon guard
support: equip shield, equip sword, equip heavy armour
movement: move +1

no innate abilities.

i think this would be a clean setup, not over powered or overly weak.


another idea i would love is some kind of monster trainerlike in FFV

Inherent, Train, Monster skill, monster talk
thief like hp growth, squire speed, equips only robes and light armours. uses only knives and guns to attack.
abilities:
all the mediator skillset + if possible some monster care abilities like those of REIS.
reaction: counter tackle
support: monster talk, train, poach (funny uh?), monster skill
movement: nothing

this is all for now... it's the only 2 classes i've actually been thiking of for a long time. post your classes, suggestions and comments!

For squire, I was thinking along the lines of being able to equip anything (or almost anything) and Innate: Equip Change, Defend. Squire probably could do with a few extra skills to the set, but nothing spectacular. It is the base class, so being able to equip everything is acceptable. Because of Squire's low stats, however, it won't be better than other characters at what that character does best.

As for the monster-like trainer, I believe that either Mediator should get these abilities added to it, or make Calculator (Blue Mage) be an excellent support unit for monsters. That way, monsters aren't overridden by the new Blue Mage class.

I'll start putting stuff together from scratch, but if you like something from philsov's patch, please tell me because I will not automatically incorporate his ideas into this.

Current plans:
-most changes from v1.2 (Job Requisites, Skill Changes, Flag Changes, Equip Changes, etc.)
-Difficulty level boosted, primarily the first chapter.
-Balancing of weaponry, seeing as how there are 4x as many swords as axes, and some weapons are rarely used.
-Upgrade skills that quickly become obsolete, such as Wish. Wish will upgrade along with Ramza, seeing as how its great in chapter 1, but not so much in chapter 3 or 4.

Quote from: "VincentCraven"For squire, I was thinking along the lines of being able to equip anything (or almost anything) and Innate: Equip Change, Defend. Squire probably could do with a few extra skills to the set, but nothing spectacular. It is the base class, so being able to equip everything is acceptable. Because of Squire's low stats, however, it won't be better than other characters at what that character does best.

As for the monster-like trainer, I believe that either Mediator should get these abilities added to it, or make Calculator (Blue Mage) be an excellent support unit for monsters. That way, monsters aren't overridden by the new Blue Mage class.

I'll start putting stuff together from scratch, but if you like something from philsov's patch, please tell me because I will not automatically incorporate his ideas into this.

Current plans:
-Job Level requirements for classes boosted to philsov's version (~1 more all around).
-Extensive job balancing by stressing uniqueness of class with innate abilities.
-Difficulty level boosted, primarily the first chapter.
-MP cost for sword skills because they are "the cream of the crop"
-Orlandu severely slashed, but still has access to some of every sword skill set and Destroy Sword.
-Balancing of weaponry, seeing as how there are 4x as many swords as axes, and some weapons are rarely used.
-Upgrade skills that quickly become obsolete, such as Wish. Wish will upgrade along with Ramza, seeing as how its great in chapter 1, but not so much in chapter 3 or 4.

Agreeing with pretty much everything here

Letting the Squire equip everything is such a good idea, I don't know why they didn't do it in the first place. It's the most balanced choice, it suits the Squires "warrior-in-training" theme and it gives you a unique reason to choose Squire as a base class.

Using innate talents to encourage players to choose different base classes is something I've been thinking about as well. What kinds of changes are you thinking about making?

It doesn't feel quite right to remove knight from game...

I'd rather see Dancer and Bard becoming one ("performer").

Quote from: "Asmo X"

Quote from: "VincentCraven"For squire, I was thinking along the lines of being able to equip anything (or almost anything) and Innate: Equip Change, Defend. Squire probably could do with a few extra skills to the set, but nothing spectacular. It is the base class, so being able to equip everything is acceptable. Because of Squire's low stats, however, it won't be better than other characters at what that character does best.

As for the monster-like trainer, I believe that either Mediator should get these abilities added to it, or make Calculator (Blue Mage) be an excellent support unit for monsters. That way, monsters aren't overridden by the new Blue Mage class.

I'll start putting stuff together from scratch, but if you like something from philsov's patch, please tell me because I will not automatically incorporate his ideas into this.

Current plans:
-Job Level requirements for classes boosted to philsov's version (~1 more all around).
-Extensive job balancing by stressing uniqueness of class with innate abilities.
-Difficulty level boosted, primarily the first chapter.
-MP cost for sword skills because they are "the cream of the crop"
-Orlandu severely slashed, but still has access to some of every sword skill set and Destroy Sword.
-Balancing of weaponry, seeing as how there are 4x as many swords as axes, and some weapons are rarely used.
-Upgrade skills that quickly become obsolete, such as Wish. Wish will upgrade along with Ramza, seeing as how its great in chapter 1, but not so much in chapter 3 or 4.

Agreeing with pretty much everything here

Letting the Squire equip everything is such a good idea, I don't know why they didn't do it in the first place. It's the most balanced choice, it suits the Squires "warrior-in-training" theme and it gives you a unique reason to choose Squire as a base class.

Using innate talents to encourage players to choose different base classes is something I've been thinking about as well. What kinds of changes are you thinking about making?

in case might be good fpor them to equpi everything beside shields? and also removing shields from all other classes and making them knight only, would make the equip shield support better and would stop evade abusing....

by the way, would a "berserker" be a viable option? something like innate short charge, attack up and maybe defence up, with innate berserk?

QuoteIt doesn't feel quite right to remove knight from game...

I'd rather see Dancer and Bard becoming one ("performer").

Yeah, I definitely agree with you here; however, there is a problem of space we must deal with. I'll figure out a way to merge some classes though, or just add in new ones, though I doubt I have the ability to just add some right now. Dancer and Bard may work, but I'll have to think about it... they are pretty different, even though they both perform. What would the prerequisites be? hmm...

As for the innate abilities, I was thinking:
Squire: Equip Change, Defend
Knight: (maybe is just a powerhouse? Only unit that can Equip Shields?)
Monk: Martial Arts (might be fine with just that)
Geomancer: Any Ground, Move on Lava, Move in Water (does Any Ground do anything if Move in Water is innate?)
Samurai: Two Hands
Archer: Concentrate (make people really want Arrow Guard; probably won't let your guys learn "Blade Grasp")
Thief: Move-Find Item, Catch, Secret Hunt, Silent Walk*(High CEv too)
Lancer: Ignore Height (and maybe more Jump for vertical jumps as well)
Ninja: Two Swords

*I think Silent Walk makes traps not work on a unit, but I'm not sure about that...

Chemist: Throw Item, Maintenance
Wizard: Magic Attack Up (not sure about this one)
Time Mage: Short Charge (Time Mage is definitely overshadowed by Wizard, but this may be too much)
Summoner: Half MP (for high MP Cost that summons will have)
Priest: Magic Defense Up
Oracle: Walk on Water (Samurai Ability), Any Weather, Move MP Up
Mediator: Monster Talk, Monster Skill, Train (maybe make this guy the Blue Mage? I think its a pretty weak class, but then again...)
Calculator: (still working on it)

Bard and Dancer: Fly (most people just switch off these guys once the set skills are learned, right?)
Mime = same as before

Other useful innates:
Non-charge (would have to be a really weak mage!)
Teleport (class would definitely have base move of 1)
Defense Up (for any class that still is pathetic after I balance things)
Attack Up (Knight maybe?)
Move-HP Up

This is probably not exactly what will be implemented, as I will have to balance the classes (Short Charge innate is pretty powerful).

As for Knight being the only unit that can use shields, I think it may be a good idea. I was already planning to make Spears 2-Hands Only, possibly boosting their Weapon Power if Lancer becomes too weak. I do want to balance equips, for the Squire's sake. I'll toy with all the equips so that I can give a general idea of what I will do to balance equipment as well. Philsov's idea to boost HP for armor was an excellent idea, so I'll definitely keep that idea in this one!

i think you're planning to give too much innate abilities.... having so many and so powerful might make useless learning the support ability, and unbalance the game too much

Perhaps, but I think there should be more characters with Innates. Maybe just some to balance the weaker characters? Some characters really aren't unique enough.

I haven't tested it yet, but I probably went a little overboard on innates...

If you want to remove evasion abuse, I'd suggest all shield equipping units cannot use mantles. Else, people are likely to just go with a team of knights through the game as their other physical tanks can't even equip shields.

Too much innates is ridiculous... ever thought of a summoner with White Magic and Half MP? Short Charge & Half MP Holy. That's like, awfully broken.

Squire shouldn't have Equip change as it would be the most useful ability for it. If they can change their equip at will and even have another support ability, I have to disagree.

Quote from: "Zodiac"If you want to remove evasion abuse, I'd suggest all shield equipping units cannot use mantles. Else, people are likely to just go with a team of knights through the game as their other physical tanks can't even equip shields.

Too much innates is ridiculous... ever thought of a summoner with White Magic and Half MP? Short Charge & Half MP Holy. That's like, awfully broken.

Squire shouldn't have Equip change as it would be the most useful ability for it. If they can change their equip at will and even have another support ability, I have to disagree.

actually if they do really suck in characteristics i wouldn't see equip change as broken, since they lose a turn by changing items, and not exp or Jps...

I think equipping everything is a good enough innate for the Squire. And yeah, some of those other ones sound awfully powerful. Innate short charge. Yikes.

This may need some thought. If you include a hefty innate skill system you'll probably run into all sorts of unfortunate combinations such as the one Zodiac pointed out, not to mention combinations you can't forsee. You'd lose control of the balance situation a little. Another option would be to further define the classes by equipment choices. Increased equipment restrictions and extensive changes to effects to set each class of equipment apart.

Certainly, a few innates will go a long way too though.

Okay, so that was a bit too much. Still, some of the ones such as Move in Water with Oracle sounds fine. Of course, the enemies would be set up so that if you didn't have powerful combinations, they'd slaughter you. Unfortunately, the AI is pretty dumb when it come down to it. I'd definitely be stuffing short charge on Ch 4 Wizards and Summoners, but it seems pretty clear that this would throw some classes out of wack. I would like to change a lot though to make it less like the original. The other changes might be enough though.

Still, classes like Squire, Thief, Mediator, and Time Mage are a little overshadowed by others. I never saw much of a use of having any of these classes as my base class. If I am overlooking something though, please tell me.

For squire, the only ones I'm not so sure about is giving it both Shield and Mantle(evade abusing), Perfume, and Ribbon. Comments on that would be appreciated.

Anyway, about a Trainer class mentioned in the first post, doesn't Mediator kinda fit the bill on this one? Sure, it would need a few changes to be as you said, but its awfully similar from what I'm getting.

TGIF, time for some testing. I'll let you guys know what else I'm toying with after a bit. My primary objective: finding a situation in which any one class would be a better choice than another. Oracle and Priest are different enough, from what I've seen, but Wizard and Time Mage...

Hey, I just thought of something. Should I add all changes from v1.2 and work from there, or should I start from the original. I think most of us agreed on things such as Mighty Sword with Split Punch and more powerful monsters, but what should I keep and what should be discarded? I think Blue Mage Calculator is pretty set, but what else?

Blue Mage Set:
Shine Lover   -  10JP
Choco Cure    - 100JP
Turn Punch    - 150JP
Wind Soul     - 250JP
Magic Spirit  - 250JP
Self Destruct - 300JP
Sudden Cry    - 320JP
Fire Bracelet - 320JP
Circle        - 360JP
Gather Power  - 400JP
Zombie Touch  - 400JP
Blood Suck    - 400JP
Oink          - 460JP
Odd Soundwave - 520JP
Bad Bracelet  - 550JP
Dark Whisper  - 700JP

Took a skill from each type of monster. No more skill slots left, just so you know. Was this a in-battle learning set or a JP learning set? It's pretty diverse, and some skills will definitely have to be modified to be viable. (MA*3 doesn't fly well with humans).

Quote from: "VincentCraven"Okay, so that was a bit too much. Still, some of the ones such as Move in Water with Oracle sounds fine. Of course, the enemies would be set up so that if you didn't have powerful combinations, they'd slaughter you. Unfortunately, the AI is pretty dumb when it come down to it. I'd definitely be stuffing short charge on Ch 4 Wizards and Summoners, but it seems pretty clear that this would throw some classes out of wack. I would like to change a lot though to make it less like the original. The other changes might be enough though.

Still, classes like Squire, Thief, Mediator, and Time Mage are a little overshadowed by others. I never saw much of a use of having any of these classes as my base class. If I am overlooking something though, please tell me.

For squire, the only ones I'm not so sure about is giving it both Shield and Mantle(evade abusing), Perfume, and Ribbon. Comments on that would be appreciated.

Anyway, about a Trainer class mentioned in the first post, doesn't Mediator kinda fit the bill on this one? Sure, it would need a few changes to be as you said, but its awfully similar from what I'm getting.

TGIF, time for some testing. I'll let you guys know what else I'm toying with after a bit. My primary objective: finding a situation in which any one class would be a better choice than another. Oracle and Priest are different enough, from what I've seen, but Wizard and Time Mage...

Hey, I just thought of something. Should I add all changes from v1.2 and work from there, or should I start from the original. I think most of us agreed on things such as Mighty Sword with Split Punch and more powerful monsters, but what should I keep and what should be discarded? I think Blue Mage Calculator is pretty set, but what else?

-Definitely agree that classes like Thief, Mediator etc need to have some more purpose. What if Mediator had Defense Up innately or something? Definitely suits its theme. The others in your list don't seem too bad (good call for the Archer I think), except for the mages. Priest Magic Def up is fine. The real problems are the ones that boost your offense somehow.

You have to consider how any 2 offensive supports are going to gel. All I can think of is maybe trying less obvious combinations. Like buffing some jobs in areas they aren't good at. Like, a mage who is clearly superior to other mages in the PA department but not as good as a physical specialist,

-Well one of the big potential problems with the Squire is perfume. But then, maybe it would be a good idea to change perfumes altogether. I remember when there was a discussion on removing the "always" status and replacing it with "initial" on things like Knight Swords. Maybe Perfumes could have "always" but at a cost. One good status and one bad. The evade problem is going to be a pain in the ass too. Might have to bite the bullet and say no shields or tone down mantles. Or maybe tone down both. I think that between all of your equips and abilities, the max to which you should be able to raise your evasion is 50%. Damn Blade Grasp.

And yeah, I think yo should use the patch as a springboard for yours

Quoteby the way, would a "berserker" be a viable option? something like innate short charge, attack up and maybe defence up, with innate berserk?

It is certainly possible. I might add that class if I find a nice way to merge two others, say Bard and Dancer or Mediator and Calculator.  I'm not sure short charge makes any difference, since all a berserk unit does is attack.
Perhaps one of the perfumes can make a unit berserk?

Added nothing too radically different lately, but I do have a new set of innate abilities for you to look at.

Squire - Equip Change or Defends
Archer - Concentrate
Priest - MgDef Up
Oracle - Half Thunder and Water
Thief - Secret Hunt
Mediator - Def Up
Geomancer - Move on Lava, Half Earth
Lancer - 7 Jump
Samurai - Two Hands
Calculator(Blue Mage) - Monster Skill, Train
Bard - Float
Mime - Def Up

Mainly messing with items right now.

I don't like Defend on Squire. Why? I often miss pick it (remember, 200 FPS)...

Concentrate on Archers is not good. It makes evasion useless... I don't agree with it.

Float on Bard? Why?

Def Up on Mime? Why? What skill you taking off? Monster Talk/Skill?

Why Jump 7 on Lancers?

Why Half X Element?

Secret Hunt is not one ability that one would want to be innate, as it can destroy forever your units.

Why Mg Def UP on Priests? And Def Up on Mediator?


Really, Innates are not good. They don't bring balance. Low tier classes are what they are, low tier.

About Berserker, I've made one using GS only. Gave them Ability to only use Axes, wear Clothes/hats, Always Berserker and gave them a high PA (higher than any generic) and HP... then I got myself giving it martial arts (in game) and having a OHKO master... >_>

Well, you seem to want reasons for my additions, so here they are.

QuoteConcentrate on Archers is not good. It makes evasion useless... I don't agree with it.

There are plenty of units that aren't archers, hence evasion is not useless. Besides, if you want to avoid Archer shots, why not pick up Arrow Guard? Granted, I do like watching my Wizards block arrows with their rods...

QuoteFloat on Bard? Why?

Oh, just because...


But seriously, who would use a Bard after the class is mastered? No reason to do so. Perhaps Fly would suit him better...

QuoteDef Up on Mime? Why? What skill you taking off? Monster Talk/Skill?

Mimes are soft and squishy, remember? And no, Mime does not have Monster Talk.

QuoteWhy Jump 7 on Lancers?

They really should have more, shouldn't they? I mean, with all that mad jumping skill, they should have 12 Jump, but I don't think that's a viable option.

QuoteWhy Half X Element?

I'd put Any Weather innate, but Square forgot to make it useful.

QuoteSecret Hunt is not one ability that one would want to be innate, as it can destroy forever your units.

Oh yeah, that came up before. Removing that...

QuoteWhy Mg Def UP on Priests? And Def Up on Mediator?

They are defensive units...

QuoteReally, Innates are not good. They don't bring balance. Low tier classes are what they are, low tier.

So what you are saying is... innate abilities are not good because they make low tier units useful? And where would Chemist be without his innate Throw Item?

QuoteAbout Berserker, I've made one using GS only. Gave them Ability to only use Axes, wear Clothes/hats, Always Berserker and gave them a high PA (higher than any generic) and HP... then I got myself giving it martial arts (in game) and having a OHKO master... >_>

Sounds like fun. I'll see if I can't add an item to make characters like that.

I wouldn't use a Bard even if you gave it Teleport 2.

Bards are not meant to be used. 3 PA? Laughtable HP, MP, MA? Get away from me!

If you want them to be used give them proper stats, not Innate. I have no idea why Square made them crap. Same would go for Dancers.

No, I'm not saying Innates are bad because they make lower tier useful, I'm saying they are bad because they are not needed.

I remember reading you were increasing Ninja, Thief, Archer and Lancer Speed...

I don't think Ninjas should get any faster... they are enoght fast as they are now.

As for the others... how faster they are now? Ninja Fast? Thief Fast? Priest Fast?

Lancers are heavy units, I think the max they should get would be Priest Speed.

As for Archers, Thief Speed.

And Thief, Ninja Speed.

Ninja... untouched.

Mainly the speed growths is what I will be increasing. But only a bit.

For bard, so far I've given it equip robe, 60HPM 14HPC, and.... dunno.
"Bards are not meant to be used"? I hope you are joking.

So your saying I should try to get as much mileage out of my characters as possible without resorting to stuffing innate abilities on them? I suppose I could.

Meh, Ninjas definitely have a power decrease, but yeah, they don't really need more speed. I was more just throwing ideas around so that I could get some comments. Currently"
Thief - 120
Archer - 115
Lancer - 110
Ninja - 125

Oh, and by the way, I'm using v1.2 as my base. Because the people who agreed on that patch are the same people who contribute to this forum, I'm willing to bet that those changes would just be reinstated after a few discussions.

Maybe instead of changing the battle mechanics I should change the battles themselves. A few more Wizards with insane faith, more top tier classes like Samurai and Ninja, more Time Mages with Short Charge and enough JP to learn Meteor...

Quote from: "Argg0"I don't like Defend on Squire. Why? I often miss pick it (remember, 200 FPS)...

Concentrate on Archers is not good. It makes evasion useless... I don't agree with it.

Float on Bard? Why?

Def Up on Mime? Why? What skill you taking off? Monster Talk/Skill?

Why Jump 7 on Lancers?

Why Half X Element?

Secret Hunt is not one ability that one would want to be innate, as it can destroy forever your units.

Why Mg Def UP on Priests? And Def Up on Mediator?


Really, Innates are not good. They don't bring balance. Low tier classes are what they are, low tier.

About Berserker, I've made one using GS only. Gave them Ability to only use Axes, wear Clothes/hats, Always Berserker and gave them a high PA (higher than any generic) and HP... then I got myself giving it martial arts (in game) and having a OHKO master... >_>

-I'm assuming your complaint about the Squire was just for a laugh. Seriously though, 200 fps? That sounds totally unmanageable

-But, if you have to actually BE an archer to get the benefit I don't think this is a big deal.

-Why the why? If a Mediator's job in an attacking party is to engage the enemy in conversation, Def Up would be a wholly appropriate skill to have. I can't think of a more appropriate class for it. If you're worried about it the balance of the class, in what way?

-Yeah, some of these seem a little bit pointless but I don't think innates are necessarily a bad thing within reason. How can't they bring balance? I mean, you seem to have immediately admonished the idea that a low tier class rise above its station so you must think adding innates does threaten to even things out. If I misread, then feel free to clarify. Also, it looks like some of these innates have been added just because they fit the theme which is cool as well. Jump 7 for lancer isn't going break the game but it's a neat addition for the class.

I thoroughly do not believe this idea that you have this staggered class system where your classes become redundant and have to be changed for "better" ones. Where's the incentive for variety; for personalised playstyles? I'm not advocating the sort of balance that makes every class the same, I'm advocating for the usefulness of classes in their own unique ways.

Maybe, instead of giving an innate to Thief, make it the fastest unit rather than Ninja.

Should Geo get all of the terrain-based innates? Might be too easy a choice for terrain-concerned players since Geo is so well-rounded.

I like the half-earth idea simply because it's thematic. It seems pretty harmless from a blance point of view.

The innates for Oracle, Bard and Mime are a bit out there. I'm not sure Mime needs anything but I'm at a loss for the others. Time Mage and Dancer probably need some consideration too. Would it be outrgaeous if the Time Mage had the best C. Ev of the mages? It ought to be a bit precognitive, right? For the record I do understand why mages have crappy C. Ev by nature and it's a precarious thing to suggest one ought to be given a distinction, but I just thought I'd put it out there. I would not object, at any rate.

I think an ideal thing for the Oracle would be a minor bonus to the % chance of success for status effects across the board but that is probably not even close to being possible. I'll have to think about this

[Edit: Late post. I see you've addressed some of it]

Geo is balanced, and I will see to it that it gets minimal attention. I think Geo is our ideal class. Still pulling for that half-earth though, mainly because... all one has to do is float to be immune.

What about Move-Find Item for Thief? Geo with Move on Lava is a more harmless way to get the items hidden in the lava squares, but either way...

I would like one character to have terrain abilities. Maybe Oracle should have that instead of half lightning and water?

Okay, I'll admit it. Bard with Float is outright ridiculous. I guess after playing fe4 where bards (aka Levin, the only bard in the game) dominated the game I felt the need to make Bard in fft special. If I could merge Bard and Dancer, I might be able to get away with something, but they do have opposite skillsets.

I also have the ability to make classes immune to status effects! I won't touch that though, seeing as how I have enough problems as it is with supports.

Blue Mage and Mediator seem to be competing for the same innate abilities. Should either of them have Monster Talk or Train? I think I'm going to get rid of Monster Skill because I can simply choose the best skills for each monster to use.

Quoteor bard, so far I've given it equip robe, 60HPM 14HPC, and.... dunno.
"Bards are not meant to be used"? I hope you are joking.

According to their original stats and weapon option, they are close to a joke class like Edward, the famous spoony bard. They are just like Calculators. I don't think you would use a Calculator after you done learning Math Skill...

So, Why do I consider them "not meant to be used"?
- Leveling on it is bad. Your physical stats are going to decrease a lot. Males are not really meant to be mages, so that's not a good thing.
- Harps, like Books, have horrible targeting. Harps rule in theory (most Omni Class SSCCs been using them when they become avaible, they have quite high WP when they show up), but their Range and Formula screws it. If Bard had descent PA it could be more useful.
- If Growth wasn't enoght, Multiplayers are bad too.

Their original stats:
HPM:  55 | MPM:  50 | SpM: 100 | PAM:  30 | MAM: 115
HPC:  20 | MPC:  20 | SpC: 100 | PAC:  80 | MAC:  50
Level 99 as this:
Level 99 HP 93-99, MP 39-42, PA 3, MA 13, SP 11

My suggestion:
HPM: 75 | MPM: 90 | SpM: 100 | PAM: 90 | MAM: 115
HPC: 13 | MPC: 13 | SpC: 100 | PAC: 55 | MAC: 50

HP: Somewhere in between Summoner and TM
MP: A lil lower than Geomancer
SP: Normal
PA: Lil lower than Priest
MA: Kept.

Level 99 in this way:
Level 99 HP 179-191, MP 100-107, PA 12, MA 13,SP 11

Now, Bards are a normal class with potential to be used. Allow them to use daggers and maybe crossbows (too much D&D? >_>).

Using Fayre Hard (a Poachable item) they have 15 WP... Twisted Headband, Power Sleeve, Bracer allow him to deal... 165 damage.

Now, an archer using Gastrafitis (10 WP), without PA Boosting gear, deals 170.

Now you could argue that bard may be a good carrier... no it isn't. One unit that needs armor to have HP similar to Wizards while having lower base MA... his own skill set can be carried by anyone. Having 5 MA more will increase the healing by 10, which is... next to nothing, and 5 MA is a lot.

Quote from: "VincentCraven"Geo is balanced, and I will see to it that it gets minimal attention. I think Geo is our ideal class. Still pulling for that half-earth though, mainly because... all one has to do is float to be immune.

What about Move-Find Item for Thief? Geo with Move on Lava is a more harmless way to get the items hidden in the lava squares, but either way...

I would like one character to have terrain abilities. Maybe Oracle should have that instead of half lightning and water?

Okay, I'll admit it. Bard with Float is outright ridiculous. I guess after playing fe4 where bards (aka Levin, the only bard in the game) dominated the game I felt the need to make Bard in fft special. If I could merge Bard and Dancer, I might be able to get away with something, but they do have opposite skillsets.

I also have the ability to make classes immune to status effects! I won't touch that though, seeing as how I have enough problems as it is with supports.

Blue Mage and Mediator seem to be competing for the same innate abilities. Should either of them have Monster Talk or Train? I think I'm going to get rid of Monster Skill because I can simply choose the best skills for each monster to use.

so maybe we could be joining blue mage-mediator to make a new unit?

also how about taking off mime and inserting a berserker? by the way short charge on berserker makes him act faster.

i was thiking about how to make a berserker... we might put it in place of mime, or maybe we might just create a set of squire only items,

axes
armour
cap

that give you always berserk+ some bonus... something like this:

fury axe: xWP, always berserk, haste
fury armour: XXHp always Berserk, protect
fury Cap: XXHp always berserk, shell
fury shield: low evade, always berserk, regen

this would allow us to have a new class without taking another class off...

what do you guy think?

Move-find item for thief is a pretty neat idea. I still think it should have the mantle of "speed champion" as well instead of Ninja who simply does not need to be the best at that.

Part of me would love to see Geo get the whole terrain kit. Weather, water, lava. Would that be too much? Walk on lava and Any Weather are rubbish. Water walking would be useful without being extreme. Keep half-earth. Suits the Geo and it's no biggie.

I don't think we should combine the Mediator and Calc. Mediator should get all the monster engagement skills since engaging the enemy is what it does. Blue Mage has typically been an engager of monsters but I think this one ought to be different. Keep it's name as "Calculator" and have the description reflect it's observant nature as an "appraiser" of skills or something.

I think the Mime becoming a Beserker is a good idea. I'll put a vote down for that. The way you described it Karsten sounds pretty hardcore though. Always beserk and haste w/Fury Axe? Ouch.

Arrg0: Good point on Bard. Then again, Square is quite lacking on ideas. They do have a few good ideas, like modeling off TO (or was it another tactic game?), but the whole Bard idea obviously was a lame joke.  Those Bard stats are pretty nice. My general idea is similar:
HP: lower than Wizard
MP: under 100, since Sing requires no MP
Sp: not boosted, since Bard's primary is Sing. Any reason to decrease it?
PA: definitely boosted, but no more than Priest
MA: 115 or 120, growth stays worse than all mages
Equip: Robes (how about Harp casts magic?)
 I'm guessing D&D is dungeons and dragons. Anyway, I will either boost Harps or change them all into other weapons in which case he could use something like Crossbow. Bard is definitely a defensive class, so I might make all Harps similar to the Healing Staff, adding several good status.


Karsten & Asmo X:
I don't like the idea of fusing the two classes because their roles, while related to monsters, are widely different. If I did fuse, I'd probably do away with Mediator skills almost entirely. Let's view the set, shall we?
Invitation: a unique ability, but I'm giving it to Ramza like in v1.2, unless objections arise
Persuade: Original - caused problems with Zodiac battles. v1.2 - Stop w/o cast time
Praise: If it and Cheer Up are removed, we have no more brave problem, right? Except for your main man, w/ Scream.
Threaten: Foxbird w/o cast time
Preach: I don't think high faith broke anybody, but we can add Faith
Solution: Anything lower faith? Nothing but Innocent, right?
Death Sentence: Secret Fist
Negotiate: Steal Gil w/ range
Insult: Blind Rage, Beo's Berserk
Mimic Daravon: Sleep, Beo's Sleep. We'll always remember how boring Daravon is.

The skill set wouldn't entirely be missed, though it is pretty unique with no cast time or MP cost and 3v3 range. Removal of Mediator would move skills like Negotiate to Thief, Death Sentence to... not Blue Mage, etc. Fusion only really comes in with the Monster Talk. Giving Ramza Invitation was a huge step in overshadowing Mediator.

Geomancer... water walking, maybe. The others are perfectly fine.

I much prefer the Berserk Items over the removing Mime. However, the item with innate haste should come late, or never, depending on how powerful berserk equips are. I do like the combo that makes it fit with Squire. Maybe just add a point of Speed on a couple of pieces?

I never knew Short Charge made berserk units act faster...

Hehe this is going to be pretty cool. Does Blue Mage have a status removal one like Choco Esuna in the other spells? I'm not really sure if Odd Soundwave takes off negative statuses or if whatever move you gave from the Trent family does.

Giga Flare would have been cool but whatever. Blood Suck seems pretty cute on it, but it would probably lead to an instant win/loss, depending if you have 108 Gems or not. Just move out of the way of the Blood Suckers and let them finish each other off. I'd say it should cost a little more JP, simply because early on nobody would have any protection against it or means to dispel it. Also, I want Blue Mages to appear in battles too.

I'm all in favor of the Berserker, Auto Battle is fun to watch anyhow =p

You could either boost Bard or combine it into Performer, doesn't really matter.

Can't you add classes to the job wheel anyhow? Why not add something like an unused class and turn it into what you want?

Random idea - how about adding (as best you can) Dark Knight or Onion Knight classes from the PSP version? I could see Dark Knight being somewhat possible, since Gaffy has it. The Move/Jump + 3 would also help, if bard/dancer don't get combined

So yeah...any clue when it'll be out? I call tester =)

Looks like I misread the Berserk suggestion. Either way for me. I'm not attached to the Mime but whatever.

Jury's out on Haste + Berserk. Imagine the full kit on someone. Geez. Maybe the statuses on the Berserk items should be Protect, Shell, Regen, Mv+1

Yeah don't combine Mediator and Calc. I agree those Mediator skills aren't exactly amazing but it's a unique set. Maybe some of the skills could be improved somehow? (btw, if I wasn't clear, the skills I was talking about giving the mediator in my previous post were the talk, train, skill supports.)

Oh yeah, Bard has to be immune to silence. I mean, come on. I know that's not very helpful but it must be done!

Dark Knight would be rather impossible.

Conic AoE with different formula depending on range?

Not to mention the other skills...

Unless you make him equal to Gaff...

Karsten:
So where did you find that Short Charge makes a berserk unit act quicker? I'm not seeing that in the BMG.

Chrona:
Blue Mage skillset is still being adjusted and may have a Choco Esuna. Odd Soundwave takes away positive status, like Dispel Magic. Giga Flare may be put in just because it looks cool, but it will be weaker on the Blue Mage than on the Behemoth character. Perhaps I'll replace Blood Suck with Drain Touch, but I'll have to see. Mutilate might be fun too.

 I don't know how to add classes to the job wheel, somebody else will have to find where I do that before it'll happen. I'm doing my best to make this noticeably different from v1.2 without going overboard. The main hindrance for release of Sigma is that it will include changes to battle (entd4.ent) and I may make some funny changes to the wrong section without knowing it.

Actually, if you are willing to test it for me, I can just give you the scus_942.21 part and you give suggestions as to which battles need to be changed. You wouldn't see any Blue Mages as enemies, but I'm sure you could find a place to put them in for the "official" release.

et al:
Bard w/ silence immunity... could work. I'll test that and see how it goes. I don't think Bard and Dancer should be fused, only because of their skillsets. I see no reason not to give Bard Move+3 and Dancer Jump+3 in their set.

Dark Knight and Onion Knight are ideas that I may consider for a much later project, because I'd have to.... add new formulas and stuff??

Go ahead and send the current file, but I won't be able to check it for a few hours at least. Maybe not today, kinda busy

I haven't finished editing the scus_942.21 part yet either, but it should be good to go in a few days, depending on how many tests I have this upcoming week. Also, I don't know how to post files on the internet, but I can certainly e-mail it to you when I get this part done.

Sounds fair. Demonwing13@gmail.com, whenever you need it

A few questions...

Gained Jp Up should be removed from regular units and Ramza, right?
Should Job Level Requirements be boosted like in v1.2? Should the Jp to reach each JL stay the same?

How would you guys feel if I removed abilities from the game, like Monster Skill (most can use their Monster Skill), Blade Grasp, or Quick?

Why remove Quick?

It's not broken or anything.

oops, I meant Critical Quick. Quick is fine.

If you're removing Gained JP Up, why bother increasing toe job level requirements? It would just serve to make it more annoying to get to a class.

Higher lvl req. = Enemies with more abilities = More abilities on crystals = more crystal hunting (I find it much more fun than acummulating)

Plus, propositions looks much better that way. Getting higher tier classes with propositions isn't hard at all and doesn't take much time. Plus you get money most of the time. Just an old option getting a new lust.

So, for me: No gained JP up & higher lvl requirements all the way!

It also make the enemies have more JP...

CQ isn't broken... not without Math Skill.

The Quickening? It doesn't require Math Skill.

[Edit: posted a little late]

Actually yeah, that probably would be pretty good then. Not too much higher though

I'd remove Blade Grasp for Samurai for now.

No idea why you want to remove monster skill, it's there, and doesn't harm. IIRC not all monsters doesn't require MS anymore.

Quote from: "VincentCraven"A few questions...

Gained Jp Up should be removed from regular units and Ramza, right?
Should Job Level Requirements be boosted like in v1.2? Should the Jp to reach each JL stay the same?

How would you guys feel if I removed abilities from the game, like Monster Skill (most can use their Monster Skill), Blade Grasp, or Quick?

I'd be more than happy to see the really overpowered skills get the boot. I'm not terribly fond of Blade Grasp.

The following are personal preferences that I don't expect to see wide agreement with but I'd like to see Move 2 and 3 get the boot and see a couple of select classes have their innate move go beyond 4. Also, redundant skills are a constant source of ire for me. The terrain skills sort of fall into this category as does Ignore Height.

Ideally these moves could be replaced with something else but it sounds like you can't really just cook up a bunch of new movement and support skills. Doesn't matter though. If a skill is pointless, no reason to have it linger about.

Re Bard w/silence. Its not a huge thing, I just thought it would be an amusing addition for a class that Sings. Obviously more work than that needs to be done to the Bard and Dancer.

Similar with the Oracle. It could be immune to blind/darkness. Then you could have one or two awesome rods that are always: darkness to stop that pesky Squire from getting its hands on them.

Chocobo -> Awesome Mounts.

Really I want it to be useful to mount a chocobo... not just for some status immunity/curing. Even worse, it nullifies the Movement skill.

You can easily go past 6 Move with a human.

Chocobos should be made to be tamed, not to be killing machines.

How about something like:

Yellow
6 Move
5 Jump

Black
Easy navigation in water
7 Move
3 Jump
Doesn't fly anymore

Red
9 Move
2 Jump

Basically, yellow would be for maps with high tiles, black for taking advantage of water maps and rivers, and red for the others.

Each being useful for something and having powerful mount capabilities.

I guess I just wanted to clean up the Monster Skills. It's really nothing more than that. Useless, or near useless, skills are just kinda... icky. The game really won't be affected one way or another.

Hey, if I removed move+2 and move+3, I could make Chocobos much more useful than they are now. Of course, Teleport still gets one where he wants to go, but whatever. I liked the flying mounts, but a flying mount really does overshadow all other types of mounts. Red Chocobo did have Ignore Height, but I don't think that was exploited very much. Forgot about this whole aspect. Not sure I agree about the 9 move Chocobo...

Next time you have your Ninja walk half way across the board with his 8 move, ask yourself, "Why?"

Now keep that in mind before telling me to keep move+3 or move+2. Needless to say, I recant my 7 jump Lancers.

Well why not give the Yellow Chocobo ignore height and the Red 8 move. If you have to ride it for the advantage, 8 move seems fair.

QuoteThe Quickening? It doesn't require Math Skill.

Really? How could you do that effectively?

Mobility hardly ever will beat the loss of one unit.

How about this?

Yellow:
6 Move
6 Jump
Ignore Height

Black:  
6 Move
2 Jump
Walk on Water (Ninja's ability)

Red:
8 Move
2 Jump

An alternative for Black could be 4 Move and Fly.
[Edit: Teleport, Fly, and Ignore Height cannot be bought at the Human's JP store]

But seriously, movement bonus is going to be much more highly valued. People probably still will forgo the mobility that a Chocobo can give, but oh well.

I suppose it [Quickening] is too difficult to pull off without Math Skill for it to be a threat. I'm at a loss for an effective way to execute it w/o mathskill. I was thinking of a Geomancy/Chakra combination on high HP characters, but at that point, it's so complicated that I guess I'll have to leave the option open.

I'd prefer 9 Move for the Red. It's only advantage is rushing in so I think it's better that no human can match it.

9 move may be acceptable.

But if I remove move+2 and move+3, humans can't touch this.

Magic, Archers, Long range abilities.

There's plenty of stuff to take down someone running away on a chobobo. It will just be harder.

And I doubt a 9move & 2jump chocobo is worst than a 8move & 5jump ninja.

Goin off for the night, so cya tomorrow people

One more thing I was going to suggest - There should still be the Chicken weapon just for fun, and Nagrarok should be boosted a little in WP but still retain Frog, and be easier to find earlier on. Imagine, two swords Nagrarok + Chickenwhatever, if it would be possible XD

QuoteMagic, Archers, Long range abilities.

There's plenty of stuff to take down someone running away on a chobobo. It will just be harder.

And I doubt a 9move & 2jump chocobo is worst than a 8move & 5jump ninja.

Touché. And maybe we'll finally see Chocobos in the battlefield.
Does Throw still use the human's range if he is mounted?

And I'll certainly consider having a Chicken Sword. It will replace on of the other swords of course, but we have plenty to choose from.

I'll trust the judgement of others on the 9 mv issue.

So who would actually consider riding a chocobo under this new scheme? Or is Argg0 right about it not being worth the loss of another character?

Oh yeah, about 2 swords: I always felt that should be its use rather than raw power; doubling the activation chance of weapon status effects.

Anyone who misses their 7 or 8 move will be able to redeem it by riding a Chocobo. Even then, there still can be 5 move units with Teleport.

I guess the only people who will use this are those who like using Knights or Samurai with Gauntlets and need to transport their powerhouse around the battlefield. A Knight with a Bracer now will only be able to get a max move of 4, so a 9 move Chocobo may be tempting. I never really cared too much for Move+X abilities myself, but whatever. I might even remove Jump+2/3 and Ignore Height, but that seems to be a bit much...

Quote from: "VincentCraven"Anyone who misses their 7 or 8 move will be able to redeem it by riding a Chocobo. Even then, there still can be 5 move units with Teleport.

I guess the only people who will use this are those who like using Knights or Samurai with Gauntlets and need to transport their powerhouse around the battlefield. A Knight with a Bracer now will only be able to get a max move of 4, so a 9 move Chocobo may be tempting. I never really cared too much for Move+X abilities myself, but whatever. I might even remove Jump+2/3 and Ignore Height, but that seems to be a bit much...

That's true. I'd strongly consider using a chocobo if Mv 2 and 3 were removed. In fact it looks like a better and better idea the more I think about it.

Why too much? As I said earlier, it's no use being sentimental about useless moves. If you know, intellectually, that they are dead weight don't stop yourself from getting rid of them. They are totally overshadowed by teleport after all which also continues to slightly dim the appeal of chocobo riding. A bold move might be getting rid of teleport instead but now we're heading into Heresy Town. Dare I suggest it be innate to some class? Don't mind me, I'm just brainstorming.

Heresy Town indeed!

But seriously, I actually tried that back before philsov released his version. It works nicely if the unit has 0-2 move. Who'd get it though, Time Mage? That'd be a great reason to use it over Wizard. I'll wait until I get more feedback on that idea before I implement it. This is a community patch after all...

Maybe remove fly too, and have only Move+1, Jump+1, and Ignore Height? Jump+1 would only be good for vertical jumping, but that is good enough for me to consider it. Of course, beautiful skills like Move-HP Up, Move-MP Up, Float, any Ground, etc. are still available for the movement slot.

2 move sounds fine. Even if you add red shoes and mv+1 it only has an 80% chance of matching a lower chocobo for movement. The Ignore Height part is what sells it. I think it's decently balanced but we'll see what some others think.

Any reason to have both Ignore Height and Jump+1? How about Move +1, Ignore Height and Fly?

Quote from: "VincentCraven"Karsten:
So where did you find that Short Charge makes a berserk unit act quicker? I'm not seeing that in the BMG.

short charge make your action flag switch on when your CT reaches 80, not 100. or you might say that it makes you calculated speed faster ie 10 speed becomes 12.5 speed (10/0.. it is written somewhere around the BMG.

Quoteshort charge make your action flag switch on when your CT reaches 80, not 100. or you might say that it makes you calculated speed faster ie 10 speed becomes 12.5 speed (10/0.8 ).. it is written somewhere around the BMG.

I searched in all BMG and found no such info... <_<

Fly overrides Ignore Height, but hey, ya know...

I'm leaning more toward a 1 move Time Mage with Teleport myself. It may suffer a loss elsewhere for this, but we'll see. I'll remove Ignore Height, maybe making it innate on Lancer, and then the only way to get a real good move ability is to go for Bard/Dancer and pay ~1000Jp for it. Flawless.

Hooray for Chocobos.

I'll try to balance jobs and equipment and touch up the skillsets within the next two days. No promises, but I think I'll be able to e-mail the patch to all who would like to test it by Wednesday. After that, I'll probably not work on any of this until the weekend, by the looks of it.

[Edit: Will hotlink, not e-mail]

Fileden allows hotlinking.

The server Argg0 uses isn't bad either.

Always found it more troublesome to send it via e-mail.  

Fileden? *googles it*

Oh okay, I'll just post a link to it here then.

Oh right. For some reason I was thinking Fly does on the horizontal plane what Ignore Height does on the Vertical. Ignore Height lets you jump vertically to any height but doesn't affect lateral jumping, whereas Fly will clear any obstacle laterally but wont let you stop on any vertical height. Shame it doesn't work that way.

Yeah get rid of Fly if that's the case. Keeping redundancy to a minimum is the best idea.

By the way, how do those movement skills like Move-Hp Up work? Can you substitute something else for HP gain at the end of your movement or is that pretty much set in stone? I don't want to erase that move or even change it, of course, I just want to know what avenues are open in the way of creating skills like that.

Oh yeah, damn. I really need to get my copy of FFT back from my friend. I'd like to have a go at this.

with fly you can stop on any surface, no matter how hight it is, as long as you can stand on it normally. BTW if you merge squire+knight you will deny all special characters to the knight skill set; right?

Quote from: "Prinygod"with fly you can stop on any surface, no matter how hight it is, as long as you can stand on it normally. BTW if you merge squire+knight you will deny all special characters to the knight skill set; right?

it would be right and i would love it because it would make generics more "special"

If any class is getting the boot, Knight will be the first to go, fusing with Squire. We'll see though.

Move-HP up: doubt I can change it, but I'll look into it... soon.

Bah. Don't fuse them. It'd be cool if generics had some leverage over the special characters but hastily deciding the Knight should be merged with the Squire as a way of doing this seems like a knee-jerk reaction. Squire is starting to really make a name for itself and Knight seems like a perfectly well-defined class on its own.

What if you moved some support skills to the generic Squire class that you didn't want specials getting their hands on? Equip axe can piss off to the Knight or something and Monster Skill has been removed already, yeah?

Re: Move Hp-Up. I was thinking of a skill that removes status effects when you move. This would still allow you to be hit by some pretty nasty things, like Stop, Sleep, Don't Move etc but I'd only want this if it could be edited over a shitty support or created from scratch. I don't want to change or get rid of Move Hp-Up.

Oh. What I meant was to change another ability to be like Move-HP Up. Personally, I go for that skill about every other time.

Denying specials to some generic abilities isn't a problem. I just don't like the removal of Knight. It's skillset is decent.

Hey, what about Move-Get Jp. Should that be removed? I was thinking about putting it on Squire...

The MoveGet abilities should be put on something like Squire, both Exp and JP. The two were hardly ever used, and can be used as a semi decent way to get abilities and jlevels without leveling up. Besides, with most good Movement abilities removed, it couldn't hurt, right?

And like 2 JP by moving ever helped if you unlocked the Calc job, ROFL!

Oh. Never used it and I didn't realize it was so pathetic.

I really need to assembly hack it, it's even too pathetic for early game... Maybe free? or Innate on squires?

>_> It's not really even worth it, since Squire skills aren't too hard to learn. I definitely need to get more into the computer programming myself. I'm a noob when it comes to this stuff.

Seriously reducing JP cost though

id rather have more equipment skills like Equip longbow, harp, rod/staff, ribbon etc... no other job besides archer can use long bows. hey thats a good idea maybe ill make a special character that uses bows...

If you're just talking about squire Vincent already changed it so they can equip everything except perfume, but I don't know why he doesn't just give them that too. If they're willing to go around wearing ribbons and bags they might as well wear perfume too.

O_o  I gave them ribbons and bags?  That's not supposed to be there...

Quote from: "VincentCraven"O_o  I gave them ribbons and bags?  That's not supposed to be there...

Bah! Man up! You wanted them to be good for something, this is it. Don't back down now. In fact, give em perfumes too.

>.> Might as well, eh?

Quote from: "VincentCraven">.> Might as well, eh?

What's the worst that could happen?

I'm gonna have the sexiest male squire in the game
wpn        c bag (or maybe one of the dancer cloths)
head       ribbon
body       silk robe
acc.        chantage