FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[Skip Sandwich]

I see it, but apparently only the female thief is 10 speed, so you might need to update your update. that being said, I don't believe that 10 speed thieves are much of a problem, seeing as even with stacked +Pa gear, they max out at 2x146=292 damage (Iga/Koga), or 288 damage (Dragon Whisker Jump), but in each of those cases they only have 269hp, making them exceedingly fragile.
:EDIT: Oh, are ninja's getting innate Two Swords back? because if not, then thieves make for better ninjas then ninjas, +1 speed, +30hp, +5 class evasion, equal PA, -1 MA, equal move/jump.

[Zaen]

Ninjas should either have more PA or more Speed than thieves... What to do, what to do...

But then again, Thieves are better Lancers than Lancers, just like Wizards with Draw Out, etc.

[The Damned]

Okay, so I can understand Ninja still not having Innate Two Swords (at the moment). However, the ability list for Ninjutsu is still contrary. Now, instead of merely missing the elementals like before, it has the much confusing information that Katon, Raiton and Suiton rely on the Untruth formula, are thusly magically and can trigger Counter Magic.

So...are those three supposed to be actually use Untruth or are they supposed to use SP*PA like you mentioned earlier?

(Similarly, is Shuriken actually SP*WP? Or is it also supposed to be SP*PA?)

Also, Mime still not having a Reaction skill makes me sad-face.

[FFMaster]

The SP*PA hack affected all weapons, which was why it was dropped. Shuriken for the moment is SP*WP. I can't do the same for the other 3 skills, since formula 63 ignores elements. The next best thing was to use Untruth, until I can find a formula to edit that won't mess other ones up.

EDIT: Someone suggested increasing Ninja PA to about 12.

[The Damned]

Oh, right, that's unfortunate. I just wanted to be sure, really.

I'm going to have to disagree with PX for once. If anything IMO (though I shouldn't have to say that) is to change about Ninja's PA, then it needs to be dropped a bit so they can get two Swords back Innately (since really there's little reason to use them over Thief now, esp. with Thief acquiring the Ruins). They'd just maybe need to be banned from using Martial Arts Support if they get back Two Swords innately.

[FFMaster]

I disagree with arbitrary bannings. If I started stuff like that, people would ask for random things like Excalibur being unbanned if units didn't have speed save/speed boosting equipment/whatever. I really hate doing shit like that. it needlessly complicates things.

I'll mess around with teams of 4 dual wielding units and see how balanced it is though.

EDIT: It was Pride who suggested the PA buff.

EDIT2: Reducing PA won't help too much. Flails are still WP*WP.

[The Damned]

Reducing PA was more to do with Martial Arts, but I can understand not wanting to arbitrarily ban things.

Make sure to test screw around with Duo Wielding fists.

[Skip Sandwich]

The problem, as I see it, is the superior damage output that comes from combining Two Swords with Martial Arts or Attack UP. The former is easy to solve, just make fists incompatible with Two Swords by editing the weapon data for them (the blank space above dagger), for the latter, just lower the PA of Ninja accordingly. Here's an example with Ninja PA reduced to 9 compared to the other big damage melee, the element boosted Ice Brand Paladin (chosen because both builds rely on stacking element boost + Attack UP). Look at this, then just adjust Ninja PA downwards until you're happy with their output.

Ninja Setup (9 base PA plus max PA gear plus Iga/Koga and Attack UP)

9 base gives PA of 15 speed of 9 so XA0=12, this is element boosted(x(5/4)) to 15, then Attack Up'd(x(4/3)) to 20, final output, 2x[20 * 9] = 2x[180] = 360

compare to Paladin with Ice Brand Kaiser Shield, Barbuta, Carabini Mail, Bracer and Attack UP

13 base gives PA of 17 which is element boosted to 21, then attack Up'd to 27, final output, [13 * 27] = 351 plus Ice 2 proc (25% of 27 damage, assuming caster/target faith of 55/55)

As for double flails

Flame Whip has a WP of 8, which can be element boosted to 10, then Attack UP'd to 13, for a final output of 13 * 8 or 104x2 or 208 damage total

[FFMaster]

I just realised that my stat tables were wrong for male Mediator and Thief

spoiler

As for Mime, I can give them Counter I guess?

Still not sure about Ninja though. For now, though... Bare fists cannot be 2 sworded.

[The Damned]

I think people wanted to give Mime Counter Flood and I agree. Also Any Ground as movement, though that's not as necessary.

And as long as Bare Fists can't be Two Sworded, that's what I most care about. Stupid Monks.

[FFMaster]

The Untruth formula seems to be very glitchy on the AI. When I cast a spell on a unit, it deals about 30 damage, but when I enter an AI battle, the AI can somehow magically cast it for about 150 damage. Same caster, same target, same everything. All that was changed was that instead of a battle at Barius Hill and me entering one, I choose a map in DD.

I might just make it PA*Y straight damage.

[Skip Sandwich]

try using formula 32 (Repeating Fist) with the X value set to 1, end result is the same as the work formula with no backlash damage.

[FFMaster]

Huh?

32 Dmg_(Rdm(1...X)*(PA*3+Y)) NS [Repeating Fist.] (Damage is always non-elemental.)

Unless the wiki and Patcher is wrong (and it is for formula 3E) that won't get a PA*Y formula. Multiplication before addition. Also, it needs elements. I was just going to edit Truth to PA damage, since I know that works.

EDIT: I think I have old Untruth working again.

[Melancthon]

Shuriken is using MP, is this correct?  I noticed while watching the me vs. CT5 fight.  If it is correct it is not reflected in the Abilities thread/chart.

[FFMaster]

Here are the propsed changes to Skills/Abilities
GENERAL
-Fists can no longer be 2 sworded
-Ninja loses 2 PA and gains 2 swords innate

SKILLS
-Ultima/Ultima 2 now activates Counter Flood, Counter Magic
-Ultima/Ultima 2 are now MA*9 damage
-Ultima costs 450 JP, 6CT and 30 MP
-Ultima 2 costs 600 JP, 8 CT and 40 MP
-Chirijiradren is MA*8 damage
-Other Draw Outs are MA*7 damage
-Katon, Raiton, and Suiton are now (100-Faith)*(100-Faith)*PA*15 damage (still magic evadable)

[The Damned]

When you get the chance, can you please put the stat tables in spoilers, FFMaster?

I've been meaning to ask this because I'd imagine that they might slow down less computers (like mine...) a bit and there's no real reason the need to always be open. Regardless, thanks.

[FFMaster]

editting the blank space above dagger didn't work. you still get 2 attacks.

[Skip Sandwich]

What about this? we remove Martial Arts support from the game, and instead give the empty hand weapon the quality of +2 PA or something (with a straight PA/2 * PA damage formula for fists, Two Sword-ing Male Knights would deal a max of 171 damage per punch, pretty much dead even with the 2x170 from max PA double diamond swords), monks would then get innate Two Swords (or maybe Attack UP) instead of Martial Arts

[Shade]

Earth dragon is twice in lore.

[Zaen]

Those ideas for removing Martial Arts sound decent enough. I'm more for Two Swords than Attack UP, though.