FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[silentkaster]

Actually, MP Switch + Move-MP UP while great in Vanilla, isn't really great once you make the excess damage affect HP damage. It gives an (unreliable) extra HP pool to many units, but Move-MP UP can't accomplish some things that Move-HP UP (and perhaps a different reaction) can. In fact, it's almost a trap of sorts for the AI due to these reasons:

1. AI will not be able to recover from critical with Move-MP UP + MP Switch. So it can regain ALL of its MP. It will still be in critical if it cannot heal its own HP.

2. Most units have more HP than MP and those that do have healthy MP rely on said MP for its skills. Sure, you might make a Summoner with Draw Out which would give it a whole lot of MP while it can't do anything with its MP to make him/her have more longevity. But then this Summoner has lost a whole way of using their spells (remember, even with Move-MP UP, the AI will not recognize it has MP until its next turn, even if it has moved before it has acted.)

3. MP Switch is unreliable (as with any reaction ability) and does not always activate.

There are a few other reasons, but these are the major ones. Again, my proposition with MP Switch is for this to happen. Unit A has 300 HP and 100 MP. A melee attack hits Unit A for 150 damage, so Unit A loses all MP (100) and 50 HP (to equal the total damage of the shot.) It is done this way in several other patches and works very well.

At best, it would give a unit an extra HP pool that won't always activate. Although I will say this...if this gets implemented, I'd rather not see any form of MP Regen/Poison. So I'd rather have one or the other (and I don't care too much which one gets implemented either way.) It could be the buff Summoners need though since it would make a good use of their large MP, but low HP, pool.

I do think Heal should cure Berserk as I believe it is supposed to. Zombie/Oil are not really that amazing. Oil in its current form has already been nerfed. It screws over elemental absorb teams, sure. But there are several immunity items and Heal/Holy Water/Refute all get rid of it. In addition to that, the AI doesn't see it as a terribly high priority to heal in most cases, so even adding abilities won't help too much. Zombie requires a whole set up team for it to work effectively. Zombie (Necronomicon and Bio 3 as well) are evadable, require a large set up and need at least two turns to be effective (one to cast/proc undead, and the second to kill the unit.)  I wouldn't mind seeing Heal gain access to curing Undead, but I'm kinda meh on that point too. I do agree Stop is running a little rampant right now. If the spell doesn't change, at least change the ability Stall to rightfully be 300 JP in the spreadsheet.

Again, before I see OK's (and even Netherseer), I'd like to see Monsters, which have been being talked about for a long time, added. Even a small number of them added would be fine...we don't need them all. These all could add a new, familiar element to the game that the other two classes can't (perhaps OK can a bit, but even then, a job with no skillset that can equip anything is going to be similar to Mime but without the Mimicking, add weapons).

As far as Paladins getting left behind as opposed to Samurai, Paladins are actually a pretty decent class right now. Their primary purpose is a support/tanky character that is hard to eliminate. With the highest Base HP, access to Shields, Armor and Axes (which give high HP and evade), and abilities that make self healing (and others) relatively easy, Paladins aren't too requiring of buffs right now.

Samurai are probably being mentioned since they are one of two classes that can only equip one weapon type (besides bags...the other being Time Mage...Monks can't equip any non bagged weapons). I'd like to see Time Mages get access to an additional weapon, too, but Samurai won't become a speed class. In fact, currently, Samurai is the slowest speed class. It cannot, under any set up, get above twelve speed (and to get to 12 speed it needs an "Equip X" support ability). Every other class, including Mimes, can at least get to 13 speed with its equips/support ability except Samurai. Plus, Spears (specifically Javelin) were under discussion to lessen/eliminate the speed bonuses.

As mentioned, Life Drain/Spell Absorb could be made instant to buff them, but my other idea was to make them based on the caster's HP/MP. This would make them pretty darn relevant when placed on a high HP unit.

Speaking of high HP units, I wanted to mention this since we talked about a weapon that functions better at high HP. One of the drawbacks of using the Moonlight/Balance is that the unit has to put itself at  high risk of dying in order for the weapons to be effective at the max. This balances them greatly since to use them at the highest power, the unit must be closer to death and that's risky. On the other hand, a unit that uses a weapon while constantly at full HP seems a lot less balanced since the AI will target lower HP units first typically (going for the easiest death in most cases). Because you WANT to have high HP base with weapons like the Moonlight or Balance, you also get less opportunities to maximize them since high HP units get targeted last by damage spells (typically). However, these weapons would not be balanced since these units will have high HP, likely high base HP and maximum power. IDK...just not sitting right with me.

Also...Atheist bow...can we do something about that proc percentage?

Yell is still a crappy ability even removing its MP cost. Since most can agree Masamune needs a lower cost and Yell can stand a buff, I still suggest transferring Regen to Yell. Make it cost MP and add Regen. It would balance them pretty well I think.

[CT5Holy]

Basic Skill: Yell adding Haste+Regen sounds great! Smart-target Ultima also sounds like a good idea.

Onion Knight: whoa, one person mentions it and now everyone's jumping on board? 1. can we even add it to the job wheel / what job would it replace, 2. what purpose does it serve? While the 2S combination possibilities would be pretty cool, Onion Knights wouldn't do much outside of that in terms of making for interesting teambuilding / gameplay.

Thieves - Rouroni, Thieves will still be used even with a PA nerf, guaranteed. It's Thieves' 10 SP that makes them so unique and powerful. PA nerf might reduce their damage-dealing capabilities, but they will still function superbly in other jobs (ex. items, Talk Skill). Since I'm talking about Thieves though, how about lowering Steal Heart accuracy? It's essentially a talk skill that adds the nastiest status, at a higher accuracy than other Talk Skills. I'd go with MA+40%.

Polka Polka / Disillusion to 50%? Arena doesn't suffer from low damage problems + we're all better players now. I don't think the accuracy buff will cause Y U SO DERP-esque teams to suddenly dominate the game again.

[Andrew]

I'm not for the introduction of the onion knight, especially if samurai and squires have their equipment options expanded.  If the onion knight has to replace an existing generic job, then it shouldn't be introduced no matter what.  I couldn't see myself using one over a mime in any given situation, especially if/when its bugs are fixed.  To me, the onion knight is akin to a berserker (such as from FF5) in terms of usefulness: it would have its moments, but it's mostly just wasting a generic job slot.

The summoner's skillset is really the only thing it has going for it.  There are so many ways to regain MP, so the extra MP they have is essentially useless.  What if they received an extra point of Move and were granted access to knives?  I could see them being super-mobile support casters, or ambushers with Short Charge.  Just a thought.

It's a shame that certain gender/job combinations make lacklustre job bases such as summoner even less desirable.  Male summoners have to be the worst units in the game, with male wizards and female lancers not too far behind.  I love how all three of them look, which makes their uselessness affect me even more.

[Shintroy]

Summoner, Secondary, MP Switch, Support, Move-MP Up, Robe of Lords for an easy 250+ HP/MP and you've got yourself an interesting unit.
MP Switch on a martial arts monk would also be interesting since they have a decent base MP pool and high HP.

Can we get an always reflect item by the way? Just make it so reflect isn't active while dead like a salty rage unit.

[Elmdork]

I'm not the guy who pulls out a spreadsheet to ensure the math is sound (that's for the intelligent people like wkw and gaigun to do) I just spitball ideas with balance in mind, even if it nerfs some of my favourite stuff. I firmly believe haste and regen should remain seperate. I think thieves should have to make great sacrifices to achieve 200 damage, and if mp switch is anything like it was before, it has no place here. I watched some stuff in the earlier seasons where the mp would not carry over to hp when surpassed. If this can be addressed, then sure, I can consider it, but if that's not possible, it can get messy. That's just my two cents.

I pretty much agree with everything else (go easy on the pole arms though, they're mostly great weapons even if underused) monsters have been a topic of much debate in the past and I agree we should try to hash that out before attempting to add new classes. My proposal for them are to have pre-designed monster units that vary with palettes based on popular team designs. For example: Red bomb is fire element, absorbs fire, has a fire spell and can self destruct dealing fire damage and oil. Grenade (blue) can be the ice version that procs slow upon detonation, and even a green one (Ivy shell?) That is earth but heals upon detonation and offers positive buffs (if we can get ai to sacrifice itself like that, again I'm just the idea man, I'll let the smart people determine if something like that can work). We can do this for chocobo, skeletons, behemoths etc. As far as equip is concerned, I think they should have equip accessory only with a list of accessories specially designed for monsters. I would love to see monsters have their own JP skill sets, but that seems absolutely daunting to program, so this is my proposal. Of course having their own JP skill sets to choose from would be ideal, but I'd just be happy to see monsters functioning at all.

Though I've been around for a while, my input isn't much better than what a new player can offer so please take what I say with a grain of salt. I feel that the game has been well refined at this point and doesn't need drastic changes all over the place, but a few things must happen for sure. Losing speed stacking is definitely one most of us seem to agree on and may be just what the game needs to do things such as keep thieves in check.

Oh, I'm curious: what do ya'll think we should do about monsters? Would you feel okay with pre-designed monsters to fill offence/tank/support roles (much like vanilla)? If not, how do think we should go about that?

[Kurosabes]

There was talk about monsters in dedicated threads in the past. It's worth a look to see what people thought of doing with them in general.

I'd give Always: Reflect to Reflect Ring. This way you couldn't have Cursed Ring users that can permanently dodge Raise 2.

Ability suggestions:

- Remove Weapon Break and give Steal Weapon to the Thief. Arm Aim just outclasses it.
- According to some online Japanese-English dictionary, Tsumazuku means 'to trip' or 'to stumble'. If we go by that, 100% Don't Move would make a lot more sense than 100% cancel Reraise.
- Just remove Bad Luck's CT.
- Please make Hawk's Eye not bypass Blind status. It is incredibly difficult to counter. It should probably take your weapon's element into account as well.
- To take care of AoE Stop procs, since Esuna and Stigma Magic have their hands full already, how about Dispel Magic? I'd throw in Slow into it as well.
- Maybe give Heal 2-3 range? More often than not, harm will be done by the time I reach an ally to remove the appropriate bad status.

[Elmdork]

I looked way back in the threads not too long ago to see where those discussions went and it pretty much ends at "what do think monsters should be like, and what should they bring to the game" (paraphrase) which was discussed among people who (mostly) don't play anymore and fft master. There was even discussion about giving monster full ability/equipment sets.

I was going to start a new thread on the topic then, but I didn't want to give the impression that was something actually being worked on in 1.40 and also I have no idea where that work is at or even what we're capable of doing.

So, I think it would be cool to discuss it here with people who play the game and are excited to talk about it.

Hey, if you guys prefer, I can open a new thread with open monster discussion and a pole to help feel out what people have in mind if it's more comfortable that way. I get it is a balance thread.

[Mudvayne]

I think adding a few monsters would be awesome. Just basic ones for now would be fine, maybe chocobos, bombs, goblins, and squids? Even just having 1 pallete or type for each monster class for now would be fine. I think having 3 variants of each monster at this point might be a bit much.

Chocobos could be the 'white mage' type, using choco cure/esuna/raise(?)?/and maybe choco ball for light damage options.
Goblins could be the physical attackers. Spin fist/blind/stigma magic/revive  (possibly).
Bombs could be mobile units with AoE attacks. Fire spin/Oil/Self Destruct/something else.
Squids could be the caster units. Aqua lung/Haste/Berserk/Frog

Just off the top of my head. I think adding maybe 4-5 monsters to start, giving them 4 moves, and giving them decent hp and stats but no equiptment might a good idea. Or just allowing them to equip accessorys for a bit of flare whether that's boosting PA/MA/SP or granting random elemental absorb or status protection. I don't think that would allow them to be too OP.

Then, allow each team to have up to 2 monsters max. I really think adding monsters would add a lot of depth and strategy options even if we only have a few of them to start. They would allow for some pretty good team builds. They could each play designated roles so they could easily replace any human character. I think monsters should have pretty high base hp/mp and ma/pa if we decide not to let them equip items. I'd much rather see monsters over any more classes added, even over netherseer or OK/DK. Monsters FTW.

[silentkaster]

Honestly, it would probably be best to have Monsters like the Old Mime used to be...where the stats are set with set RSM abilities (no equipment). You could also give them natural immunities to status. These, along with unique skills and uses, would highlight monsters while still being pretty simple to implement...at least for the first patch of including them. If they don't see much use or people want to change after that, we can look at changing them...but it would be nice to have a control group for the monsters.

I'm really not sure if all the Mime bugs can be worked out. Many problems they have are things the Mimes were never meant to do anyway...so it just makes it a bit more difficult.

[Gaignun]

MP switch is fine if we can have HP incur the remaining damage.  At the cost of a reaction ability, it would allow players to design summoners as unconventional tanks, and use Carbunkle as an unconventional Moogle.

As far as Paladins getting left behind as opposed to Samurai, Paladins are actually a pretty decent class right now. Their primary purpose is a support/tanky character that is hard to eliminate. With the highest Base HP, access to Shields, Armor and Axes (which give high HP and evade), and abilities that make self healing (and others) relatively easy, Paladins aren't too requiring of buffs right now.

I generally agree about Paladins.  They're strong on their own, but are currently being outsped by clothes-wearers.  Paladins have 3 Move and 8 SP.  Though their melee damage is high, this paltry mobility and speed means they have trouble putting this damage to use.  Curbing speed across the board (and possibly also introducing PA-based spells via Netherseer and making EV persist while charging via a new Reaction ability) would help make Paladins more popular. 

Samurai are probably being mentioned since they are one of two classes that can only equip one weapon type (besides bags...the other being Time Mage...Monks can't equip any non bagged weapons). I'd like to see Time Mages get access to an additional weapon, too, but Samurai won't become a speed class.

This is true.  Giving samurai longbows would make them slower, armored archers.  It's mainly for making the male samurai more versatile like the female one.

As for Time Mages, I agree that they could use another weapon.  I would recommend poles.  Together with my suggestions for pole changes (i.e., turning them into status-spell-procing weapons), poles would suit the Time Mage's role as a saboteur along with the Oracle, another wielder of poles.

As mentioned, Life Drain/Spell Absorb could be made instant to buff them, but my other idea was to make them based on the caster's HP/MP. This would make them pretty darn relevant when placed on a high HP unit.

I am personally for basing Life Drain and Spell Absorb on caster HP/MP values.  As silentkaster mentions, this will make high HP/MP equipment and classes (such as Paladins!) more relevant.

Also...Atheist bow...can we do something about that proc percentage?

Yeah, as it is with no conventional way to block or cure Innocent, Atheist Bow's proc rate should probably drop to around 50%.  We can increase the bow's range by 1 to compensate.

I'd give Always: Reflect to Reflect Ring. This way you couldn't have Cursed Ring users that can permanently dodge Raise 2.

Ability suggestions:

- Remove Weapon Break and give Steal Weapon to the Thief. Arm Aim just outclasses it.
- According to some online Japanese-English dictionary, Tsumazuku means 'to trip' or 'to stumble'. If we go by that, 100% Don't Move would make a lot more sense than 100% cancel Reraise.
- Just remove Bad Luck's CT.
- Please make Hawk's Eye not bypass Blind status. It is incredibly difficult to counter. It should probably take your weapon's element into account as well.
- To take care of AoE Stop procs, since Esuna and Stigma Magic have their hands full already, how about Dispel Magic? I'd throw in Slow into it as well.
- Maybe give Heal 2-3 range? More often than not, harm will be done by the time I reach an ally to remove the appropriate bad status.

I agree with this.  However, I wouldn't get too strung up on skill names.  Kagesougi (影争議) means "shadow-dispute," as in, "The shadows are upset about low pay and are going on strike," and Houkouton (方向遁) means "let free the directions," as if directions are corporeal entities that are unleashed on opponents.

[Mudvayne]

I think a few of the crossbows could use a buff. This includes Night Killer, Silencer, Poision Bow, and Hunting Bow. Currently the only ones that really get used are Bow Gun, and Gastrafitis, which IMO Bow Gun @ 8 WP is pretty meh. Maybe increasing the proc rate for these from 50% to 75% or even 100%.
Even at 100% Blind (Night Killer), Silence (Silencer), Poision (Posion Bow) and Dont Move (Hunting Bow) does not make these weapons OP, just gives them a little bit more reason to use them over any long bow, which currently not many people do. I'd like to see some more archers with crossbows and shields but currently the crossbows are pretty meh overall and I don't think increasing their WP will make them much more attractive to use so I think buffing their proc rates significantly is a good start.

[CT5Holy]

I think Crossbows could receive a slight buff too (or maybe they're actually fine, but no one's really using them?). Crossbow procs at 66% sound reasonable. 100% is, in fact, too strong - they used to be this way long, long ago. It was nasty. Hunting Bow in particular.

[silentkaster]

What about unevadable for all except Gastrafitis and lowering the WP? Keep the proc percent the same. I think that would make them more popular on defensive units.

[Andrew]

I think Crossbows could receive a slight buff too (or maybe they're actually fine, but no one's really using them?). Crossbow procs at 66% sound reasonable. 100% is, in fact, too strong - they used to be this way long, long ago. It was nasty. Hunting Bow in particular.

I agree with having their proc chances increased.  I find that their damage output is adequate enough.

What about unevadable for all except Gastrafitis and lowering the WP? Keep the proc percent the same. I think that would make them more popular on defensive units.

If this were to happen, I don't think people would use physical guns at all.

[silentkaster]

If this were to happen, I don't think people would use physical guns at all.

Why? Lowering the WP of each by 2 would put the highest WP on par with the Romanda Gun. But the Romanda Gun has 8 range making it far superior for skills like Hawk's Eye and Arm Aim. The Mythril Gun provides 2 MA. None of the crossbows can or would provide that, and all of them would still be subject to Projectile Guard. The Stone Gun would also be boosted by the lowering WP of the crossbows. Although, I still think the current Stone Gun is literally one of the worst weapons in the game and is outclassed by the Gastrafitis in nearly every way.

I'm okay with not making them unevadable and boosting them another way as well, but I certainly don't think this idea makes guns obsolete.

[Shintroy]

Andrew is right. Unevadable crossbows would cause a riot. I'm giving up on this thread until 140. What ever happens, happens.

[silentkaster]

Andrew is right. Unevadable crossbows would cause a riot. I'm giving up on this thread until 140. What ever happens, happens.

Again though, why?

[Andrew]

Why? Lowering the WP of each by 2 would put the highest WP on par with the Romanda Gun. But the Romanda Gun has 8 range making it far superior for skills like Hawk's Eye and Arm Aim. The Mythril Gun provides 2 MA. None of the crossbows can or would provide that, and all of them would still be subject to Projectile Guard. The Stone Gun would also be boosted by the lowering WP of the crossbows. Although, I still think the current Stone Gun is literally one of the worst weapons in the game and is outclassed by the Gastrafitis in nearly every way.

I'm okay with not making them unevadable and boosting them another way as well, but I certainly don't think this idea makes guns obsolete.

Even if the status crossbows were lowered to 10 WP, they could still end-up dealing much more damage than guns through PA-increasing means, especially since PA is easy to boost with little drawback.  The result of this would be unavoidable ranged weapons with a high damage ceiling that have a 50% chance to proc annoying statuses which the enemy AI would spend the majority of their time removing.  Even if they were used on low-PA units, they would still be invaluable.  Also, an unavoidable Bow Gun would spell trouble!  I wouldn't want to fight a team composed of defensive Bow Gun users with this change.  As for Projectile Guard: it's like buffing overall Talk Skill accuracy by a hefty amount and saying that it's okay because Finger Guard exists.  Not every team utilizes that reaction.

[silentkaster]

Even if the status crossbows were lowered to 10 WP, they could still end-up dealing much more damage than guns through PA-increasing means, especially since PA is easy to boost with little drawback.  The result of this would be unavoidable ranged weapons with a high damage ceiling that have a 50% chance to proc annoying statuses which the enemy AI would spend the majority of their time removing.

This is already possible with these weapons. Let's take a look at the difference between a unit equipped with concentrate using the current Crossbows and a unit equipped with Attack UP and the proposed Crossbows. We'll use a Squire since they can innately equip Crossbows and they can easily use Concentrate. We'll use Poison Bow since it's one of the higher ones with 12 PA.

Unbuffed Squire: 10 PA + Concentrate current Poison Bow (12) = 120 HP damage + 50% proc Poison
Unbuffed Squire patched: 10 PA + Attack UP proposed Poison Bow = 130 HP damage + 50% proc Poison

Max Buffed Squire: 17 PA + Concentrate current Poison Bow = 204 HP damage + 50% proc Poison
Max Buffed Squire: 17 PA + Attack UP proposed Poison Bow = 220 HP damage + 50% proc Poison

It doesn't seem like that much of a difference in terms of damage.

Now, you might argue, "Well, sure, but now you can have innate concentrate + a defensive or supportive Support ability rather than making it offensive." But defensive units have the option (some of them anyway) to use these weapons now and simply don't. It's not because they are inaccurate (every weapon is besides the Hidden Knife), but it's because they just don't provide enough of what a defensive unit wants. Don't Move can be annoying, but the other statuses are easily guarded (seeing an unprotected mage is extremely rare), could be irrelevant (Blind on a Mage, Silence on a Monk, etc), or easily cured.

Not to mention that most defensive units use status anyway. How often do we see an Unyielding Chemist with Talk Skill, an evasive Mediator with Kiyomori or the like? It's very often. The change would just give Crossbows a competing edge with those.

Increasing the proc to anything below...say...75% I don't think would increase the use much. Most teams don't rely on the status the Crossbows provide enough to make them worth using. The Hunting Bow is probably the most "useful" of all of them, and even that I say is situational at best.

To be complete, yes this would give high PA jobs more of an incentive to use, "Equip Ranged" and equip a crossbow. But would that really be worth it for a 10 WP Crossbow when a high PA unit can really do some damage with another weapon choice? Ehhhhh...

Also, the range isn't that much of a factor. In fact, it could get in the way based on the Crossbow's trajectory and any unit, including one with three move, could easily approach the shooter on their next turn (again, barring the Hunting Bow proc but its WP would only be 8 which is not impressive at all.)

Even if they were used on low-PA units, they would still be invaluable.  Also, an unavoidable Bow Gun would spell trouble!  I wouldn't want to fight a team composed of defensive Bow Gun users with this change.  As for Projectile Guard: it's like buffing overall Talk Skill accuracy by a hefty amount and saying that it's okay because Finger Guard exists.  Not every team utilizes that reaction.

I do understand that, but this makes Maintenance more of a choice as well (which also needs a helping hand since few people use the Support Skill). (Although I still think the Armor Break proc would be avoidable, just not the shot itself.)

It's not like saying that, though. In fact, if the Crossbows could cause Sleep, DS, Berserk, Don't Act, Stop, Faith, Innocent, or remove all status, like Talk Skill does, I think that we'd be saying they need a nerf. Not to mention, Talk Skill is, at least as far as I know, popularly considered not to be OP or UP so nobody's saying, "How do we buff/nerf Talk Skill?" but people have been asking, "How do we make Crossbows better, but not OP like they were with 100% procs?" (It should also be mentioned that the status that Talk Skill inflicts is worth the low accuracy of the skill itself, so you trade low accuracy for a very good result when it actually does connect...but with the Crossbows...the status isn't as strong.)

I'm simply asking, "What would it really take for a player to consider a Crossbow to be a fairly good choice of a weapon?" I think unevadable would do it, and not make it OP as long as the Weapon Power is nerfed. Beyond that, I don't see much.

[CT5Holy]

Well, let's say all the status-inducing Crossbows go to 10 WP and are unevadable.

Max damage setup: 17 PA Archer with AUP (Genji Shield, Twist Headband, Power Sleeve, Bracer) -> 220 damage. Probably scarier would be 16 PA, 10 SPD Archer with AUP (Zephyr Shield instead of Genji Shield) -> 210 damage. 12 SPD variant does 170 damage with AUP (Zephyr Shield, Thief Hat, Power Sleeve, Cursed Ring). So with AUP, you're probably going to see 160-200 damage attacks (cause 12 and 15 PA are nice break points for AUP). That's pretty good, but leaves the Archer vulnerable to straight up damage (~300 HP) or status, which is rampant. Ok the 12 SPD archer sounds pretty strong, but so do a lot of 12 SPD units >_>

As for Romanda Gun, let's not forget that it can still be used with abilities like Kagesougi, thus netting the same benefit from PA boosting gear and AUP. The range makes Romanda Gun much more attractive here. Also for Arm Aim / equip breaks, like silentkaster said. And for anti-PD/Wish/Revive purposes. Romanda Gun still seems totally usable to me!

Also, Andrew, in case you aren't aware, Bow Gun isn't 50% chance to destroy armor if it hits, it's a 50% chance to use the skill Armor Break, which can miss. So the probability of actually destroying a unit's armor with Bow Gun is closer to 25-30% if it hits (less if the target has high evade!).