Job Tree Layout (UPDATE! Your Opinion Needed!) POLL!

[LastingDawn]

Excellent, that seems quite a lineup, I had noticed though that in the chart it shows Trancer in the middle with Scryer and Monk attached to it, should that mean that it takes 4 Monk and Scryer in inclusion to 2 Reliquian and 2 Blue Mage? It would give a reason to indulge back into the beginning classes. Well, besides then that they're both quite interesting. Also it would make sense that the basics would have the knowledge needed to observe other classes well.

[boomkick]

Interesting, looks solid philsov.

[philsov]

Excellent, that seems quite a lineup, I had noticed though that in the chart it shows Trancer in the middle with Scryer and Monk attached to it, should that mean that it takes 4 Monk and Scryer in inclusion to 2 Reliquian and 2 Blue Mage? It would give a reason to indulge back into the beginning classes.

I had intended on having it be Reliq + BM + Arch + Esp, but it was a bit harder to draw in that overlap.  Though your idea works just as well, and its easier to depict graphically.

[LastingDawn]

One thing I positively love about this job tree is neither are full MA and PA, like FFT, you've mixed and matched the trees very well! Blue Mage and Gambler for Dragoon was a Stroke of genuis! Haha! Once again I am in awe of your math skills.

[RamzaBot]

That is an intense tree diagram. I'm new to this site really. But is there a thread for the classifications of the jobs.
I know it's a work in progress but it looks like you have the foundation already. I'm just interested in what the jobs do for now, and later I'll check in to what they can do later on. Any help would be appreciated as always. Thanks.

[LastingDawn]

Indeed, all of the threads (except for Dragoon and Traveler) have their own threads, scattered about.

[RamzaBot]

Thank you. I'll keep popping in and out. See what's going on.

[warrioroflight]

Haha BS is in the middle

[MiKeMiTchi]

I have come up with my own suggestion for the Job Tree.

//List of Jobs according to (PA, MA)

PA based ( 10 )
Monk
Knight
Traveler
Warder
Gambler
Archer
Dragoon
Arbalist
Hessian
Reliquian

MA based ( 8 )
Scryer
Invoker
Cantor
Inquisitor
Red Mage
Blue Mage
EsperBlade
Trancer

//According to 'level'
//Here's what I suggest:

With this, the player can unlock the 'Master Jobs' in
an equal number of level reached whether the player chooses
to unlock Hessian or Red Mage. Same goes to the most jobs
in the each level.

Note*
{n} = min. number needed for job change


PRIMARY JOBS
-------
{0}Monk -  Base
{0}Scryer -  Base

SECONDARY JOBS
-------
{2}Invoker - 2 Scryer
{2}Cantor - 2 Scryer

{2}Knight - 2 Monk
{2}Traveler - 2 Monk

TERTIARY JOBS
-------
{7}Warder - 5 Knight
{7}Gambler - 5 Traveler

COMPOSITE JOBS
-------
{10}Archer - 4 Knight, 4 Traveler
{10}Reliquian - 4 Knight, 2 Invoker
{10}Blue Mage - 4 Cantor, 2 Traveler
{10}EsperBlade - 4 Cantor, 4 Invoker

ADVANCED JOB
-------
{18}Arbalist - 8 Archer

ADVANCED COMPOSITE JOBS
-------
{27}Inquisitor - 5 Warder, 5 Reliquian
{27}Dragoon - 5 Gambler, 5 Blue Mage

MASTER JOBS
-------
{65}Hessian - 3 Warder, 5 Dragoon, 5 Arbalist
(71 in the original)(by Sir LD)

{65}Red Mage - 6 Inquisitor, 6 Blue Mage, 6 EsperBlade
(69 in the original)(by Sir LD)

SPECIAL JOB
-------
{20}Trancer - 4 Invoker, 4 Cantor, 4 Knight, 4 Traveler



~;;~
What do you guys think about this?

[LastingDawn]

Really nothing has passed the need for more then four in any Job Class, this is to cut down on redundancy. Also there's a slight screw up in that... Traveler is  Speed + MA Based class, it's partially PA based in some of it's Rust skills, but nothing beyond that. It is meant to be a Mage-Thief combination. Other then that the chart looks optimal now for the job tree as suggested... it doesn't quite work with Traveler on the wrong side of the equation, Dragoon is also more of a Hybrid rather then a straight PA class, as is the Reliquian, but that relies more on PA then MA.

8 for any one job is a bit... absurd. Also you saw Philsov's chart on the first page, right? Did that have an uneven way to Hessian/Red Mage?

[MiKeMiTchi]

I get your point, there.

Yup, the chart is great.
Well somehow, because it'll be easier to unlock the Hessian Job.. *I think*

Well, I haven't played FFT that much.. so yeah..
I'll need more experience first..

[philsov]

Did that have an uneven way to Hessian/Red Mage?

A little, yes >_>

To get Red Mage, you don't have to touch the archer, arbalest, gambler, or dragoon.
To get Hessain, you dont to touch the esperblade, reliquarian, or inquisitor jobs.

This is a result of the arbalest's placement on the job tree, but job level prereqs can be tweaked to make them require the same net JP or somesuch.

[MiKeMiTchi]

This is a result of the arbalest's placement on the job tree, but job level prereqs can be tweaked to make them require the same net JP or somesuch.

That would be a great alternative!

[LastingDawn]

Hmm... what did you have in mind Philsov? It is a good idea though.

[philsov]

TL:DR - See 2nd spoiler for my suggestions, tweak as desired.

Well....

Forgive my frames of reference, I'm far more versed in 1.3 FFT than mercenaries.  This'll also bring up some discussion about job reqs in general.

In a normal style of play, that is... about half of the propositions done, a few randoms, and maybe 2 additional rounds of action at the end of some battles, you can get:

4th tier jobs like geomancer or mediator at the start of chapter 2, meaning  about 1200 JP acquired at that point (750 earned with 450 thanks to starter bonuses).

Composite classes like samurai/ninja/sage/bard/dancer at the end of chap 2 / start of chap 3 -- meaning a total of about 3000 JP at that time -- 2100 earned and 900 starter bonuses.

Meanwhile, a 1.3 mime is usually born from normal means right before the home stretch at Orbonne.  1.3 Mime is job level 6, in 16 jobs, meaning... 18400 JP arrived at through the course of the game (16000 JP earned, 2400 given). Though it should be noted that JP gains are higher as both job level and experience level also go up.  Also JP sharing was exercised by the rest of the party.

And using my current 1.3 game as a reference, I'm in early chapter 4 with an average of 8000 JP among my main people.

Assuming that Mercenaries will have roughly the same length as 1.3 in terms of number of battles and average length of battles, this means these ultimate classes should be unlocked at about... 14000 JP.  This would be decidedly end-game level stuff but you're also given enough time to actually play with the classes.  

Under your initial proposal...

spoiler

Start Base
---------
Monk - 2 Base (200 JP)
Scryer - 2 Base (200 JP)
----------------------
Secondary Class
Invoker - 2 Scryer (400 JP)
Cantor - 2 Scryer  (400 JP)
Knight - 2 Monk (400 JP)
Traveler - 2 Monk (400 JP)
-------------------
Tertiary Class
Warder - 5 Knight (1200 JP)
Gambler - 5 Traveler (1200 JP)
-------------------------
Composite Class
Reliquian - 4 Knight, 4 Invoker (1900 JP)
Blue Mage - 4 Cantor, 4 Traveler  (1900 JP)
EsperBlades - 3 Cantor, 3 Invoker (1500 JP)
Archer - 3 Knight, 3 Traveler (1500 JP)
---------------------------
Advanced Composite Class
Inquisitor - 6 Warder, 6 Reliquian (5400 JP)
Dragoon - 6 Gambler, 6 Blue Mage  (5400 JP)
Arbalist - 7 Archer  (3050 JP)
--------------------------------------
Master Class
Hessian - 4 Dragoon, 4 Warder, 8 Arbalist (12850 JP)
Red Mage - 4 Inquisitor, 4 Blue Mage, 8 EsperBlade (12000 JP)

Which, really isn't too far off target.  Nice shot.  They both have definite endgame net JP pre-reqs, and they're rather close together because Warder takes less to unlock that Blue Mage, which somewhat offsets the additional arbalist job over on the hessain side of the tree.  

However, taking a page from 1.3 here... I don't think job level 2 is sufficient for anything except maybe out of the dummy base class, though 1 may just suffice there tbh.  Thanks to the starter bonus of 100-199 JP, getting up to 200 JP is doing one single action if you're lucky.  That is nowhere near enough time to sit in a class before advancing forward.  

If we ratchet up those starter classes to 3, and make the dummy base 1 here's the offset is completely negligible (Hessain's looking at 13000 JP, maybe).

It's a very tight wire to cross -- you want all the classes to be experienced and maybe hopefully stayed in even after their pre-req is completed, but the later classes shouldn't be so far out of reach that one would have to purposely grind in order to even play with them.  With that in mind, I think a more proper goal with the final classes is 10000 JP, or maybe even less.  That mime I spoke of earlier never was any job in which is was already level 6 in, and I'd hate to see the same fate befall any of these great classes, especially trancer, because with regards to the final class that can be ignored entirely.

Which leads to my initial suggestion line:

spoiler

Start Base
---------
Monk - 1 Base (100)
Scryer - 1 Base (100)

Secondary Class
Invoker - 3 Scryer (450)
Cantor - 3 Scryer (450)
Knight - 3 Monk (450)
Traveler - 3 Monk (450)
 
Tertiary Class
Warder - 4 Knight (1250)
Gambler - 4 Traveler (1250)

Composite Class
Reliquian - 3 Knight, 3 Invoker (1600)
Blue Mage - 3 Cantor, 3 Traveler (1600)
EsperBlades - 3 Cantor, 3 Invoker (1600)
Archer - 3 Knight, 3 Traveler  (1600)

Advanced Composite Class
Inquisitor - 4 Warder, 4 Reliquian (3950)
Dragoon - 4 Gambler, 4 Blue Mage (3950)
Arbalist - 6 Archer (2750)
Trancer - 4 Monk, 4 Scryer, 3 Reliquarian, 3 Blue Mage (5200) <-- Yuck!

Master Class
Hessian - 4 Dragoon, 4 Warder, 8 Arbalist (10000)
Red Mage - 4 Inquisitor, 4 Blue Mage, 8 EsperBlade (10350)

OK, 350 variance.  Oh noes.  I had forgotten about warder being simpler than blue mage when discussing the arbalist.  Even if you think level 8 on those jobs is too high for the master classes, you can easily make them anything less and be fine. The bulk of the JP comes from all the other classes anyways, so they'd be reduced to all of... 9000 JP?  Still plenty high but within reach.

Oh, and I think trancer needs to be trimmed.  I like the 4 monk/scryer bit, but even if we go 1 Reliq and 1 BM that's still ~4500 JP.  That might work?

[LastingDawn]

TL:DR - See 2nd spoiler for my suggestions, tweak as desired.

Well....

Forgive my frames of reference, I'm far more versed in 1.3 FFT than mercenaries.  This'll also bring up some discussion about job reqs in general.

In a normal style of play, that is... about half of the propositions done, a few randoms, and maybe 2 additional rounds of action at the end of some battles, you can get:

4th tier jobs like geomancer or mediator at the start of chapter 2, meaning  about 1200 JP acquired at that point (750 earned with 450 thanks to starter bonuses).

Composite classes like samurai/ninja/sage/bard/dancer at the end of chap 2 / start of chap 3 -- meaning a total of about 3000 JP at that time -- 2100 earned and 900 starter bonuses.

Meanwhile, a 1.3 mime is usually born from normal means right before the home stretch at Orbonne.  1.3 Mime is job level 6, in 16 jobs, meaning... 18400 JP arrived at through the course of the game (16000 JP earned, 2400 given). Though it should be noted that JP gains are higher as both job level and experience level also go up.  Also JP sharing was exercised by the rest of the party.

And using my current 1.3 game as a reference, I'm in early chapter 4 with an average of 8000 JP among my main people.

Assuming that Mercenaries will have roughly the same length as 1.3 in terms of number of battles and average length of battles, this means these ultimate classes should be unlocked at about... 14000 JP.  This would be decidedly end-game level stuff but you're also given enough time to actually play with the classes.  

That sounds about right, the only thing I see being different from 1.3 and Mercenaries is the focus on only two units, rather then up to 16. that shouldn't effect things too adversely, unlike 1.3 "Studies" (Propositions), can only be performed by a single NPC Guest Unit, rather then every generic. Regardless it should still be about the same.

Under your initial proposal...

spoiler

Start Base
---------
Monk - 2 Base (200 JP)
Scryer - 2 Base (200 JP)
----------------------
Secondary Class
Invoker - 2 Scryer (400 JP)
Cantor - 2 Scryer  (400 JP)
Knight - 2 Monk (400 JP)
Traveler - 2 Monk (400 JP)
-------------------
Tertiary Class
Warder - 5 Knight (1200 JP)
Gambler - 5 Traveler (1200 JP)
-------------------------
Composite Class
Reliquian - 4 Knight, 4 Invoker (1900 JP)
Blue Mage - 4 Cantor, 4 Traveler  (1900 JP)
EsperBlades - 3 Cantor, 3 Invoker (1500 JP)
Archer - 3 Knight, 3 Traveler (1500 JP)
---------------------------
Advanced Composite Class
Inquisitor - 6 Warder, 6 Reliquian (5400 JP)
Dragoon - 6 Gambler, 6 Blue Mage  (5400 JP)
Arbalist - 7 Archer  (3050 JP)
--------------------------------------
Master Class
Hessian - 4 Dragoon, 4 Warder, 8 Arbalist (12850 JP)
Red Mage - 4 Inquisitor, 4 Blue Mage, 8 EsperBlade (12000 JP)

Which, really isn't too far off target.  Nice shot.  They both have definite endgame net JP pre-reqs, and they're rather close together because Warder takes less to unlock that Blue Mage, which somewhat offsets the additional arbalist job over on the hessain side of the tree.  

However, taking a page from 1.3 here... I don't think job level 2 is sufficient for anything except maybe out of the dummy base class, though 1 may just suffice there tbh.  Thanks to the starter bonus of 100-199 JP, getting up to 200 JP is doing one single action if you're lucky.  That is nowhere near enough time to sit in a class before advancing forward.  

If we ratchet up those starter classes to 3, and make the dummy base 1 here's the offset is completely negligible (Hessain's looking at 13000 JP, maybe).

It's a very tight wire to cross -- you want all the classes to be experienced and maybe hopefully stayed in even after their pre-req is completed, but the later classes shouldn't be so far out of reach that one would have to purposely grind in order to even play with them.  With that in mind, I think a more proper goal with the final classes is 10000 JP, or maybe even less.  That mime I spoke of earlier never was any job in which is was already level 6 in, and I'd hate to see the same fate befall any of these great classes, especially trancer, because with regards to the final class that can be ignored entirely.

That is true and a definite concern... I like the idea to bump them to 3 for the starter classes.

Which leads to my initial suggestion line:

spoiler

Start Base
---------
Monk - 1 Base (100)
Scryer - 1 Base (100)

Secondary Class
Invoker - 3 Scryer (450)
Cantor - 3 Scryer (450)
Knight - 3 Monk (450)
Traveler - 3 Monk (450)
 
Tertiary Class
Warder - 4 Knight (1250)
Gambler - 4 Traveler (1250)

Composite Class
Reliquian - 3 Knight, 3 Invoker (1600)
Blue Mage - 3 Cantor, 3 Traveler (1600)
EsperBlades - 3 Cantor, 3 Invoker (1600)
Archer - 3 Knight, 3 Traveler  (1600)

Advanced Composite Class
Inquisitor - 4 Warder, 4 Reliquian (3950)
Dragoon - 4 Gambler, 4 Blue Mage (3950)
Arbalist - 6 Archer (2750)
Trancer - 4 Monk, 4 Scryer, 3 Reliquarian, 3 Blue Mage (5200) <-- Yuck!

Master Class
Hessian - 4 Dragoon, 4 Warder, 8 Arbalist (10000)
Red Mage - 4 Inquisitor, 4 Blue Mage, 8 EsperBlade (10350)

I really like this new job level chart and will apply it immediately.

OK, 350 variance.  Oh noes.  I had forgotten about warder being simpler than blue mage when discussing the arbalist.  Even if you think level 8 on those jobs is too high for the master classes, you can easily make them anything less and be fine. The bulk of the JP comes from all the other classes anyways, so they'd be reduced to all of... 9000 JP?  Still plenty high but within reach.

Oh, and I think trancer needs to be trimmed.  I like the 4 monk/scryer bit, but even if we go 1 Reliq and 1 BM that's still ~4500 JP.  That might work?

Good point, very good point on the Trancer... let's see... perhaps 1 Warder and Gambler might work? Though that would lead some to believe that the Trancer is a Physical only class, hmm... how about another making it another secondary job? 4 Traveler, 4 Invoker? The Invoker and Traveler are both pretty quirky character traited job classes, I could see training in both fulminating in the warrior ground sensing freaks that are Trancers.

[MiKeMiTchi]

Start Base
---------
Monk - 1 Base (100)
Scryer - 1 Base (100)

Secondary Class
Invoker - 3 Scryer (450)
Cantor - 3 Scryer (450)
Knight - 3 Monk (450)
Traveler - 3 Monk (450)

Tertiary Class
Warder - 4 Knight (1250)
Gambler - 4 Traveler (1250)

Composite Class
Reliquian - 3 Knight, 3 Invoker (1600)
Blue Mage - 3 Cantor, 3 Traveler (1600)
EsperBlades - 3 Cantor, 3 Invoker (1600)
Archer - 3 Knight, 3 Traveler (1600)

Advanced Composite Class
Inquisitor - 4 Warder, 4 Reliquian (3950)
Dragoon - 4 Gambler, 4 Blue Mage (3950)
Arbalist - 6 Archer (2750)
Trancer - 4 Monk, 4 Scryer, 3 Reliquarian, 3 Blue Mage (5200) <-- Yuck!

Master Class
Hessian - 4 Dragoon, 4 Warder, 8 Arbalist (10000)
Red Mage - 4 Inquisitor, 4 Blue Mage, 8 EsperBlade (10350)

I love it, except for the Trancer.
IMO, I agree with LD's opinion on the Traveler, Invoker.
That should make the Trancer, a special tertiary class.

So,
Trancer should be:
4 Monk, 4 Scryer, 4 Traveler or Knight, 4 Invoker or Cantor.
or..
4 Monk, 4 Scryer, 2 Traveler, 2 Knight, 2 Invoker and 2 Cantor??

[philsov]

Trancer should be:
4 Monk, 4 Scryer, 4 Traveler or Knight, 4 Invoker or Cantor.

This.  2 across the board is pretty weak, as described above.

4/4/4/4 is 2400 JP total needed.  Not too bad for a composite class.  

As far as which class combo, we've got:

Knight/Cantor
Traveler/Invoker

to pick from.  Of these I find traveler/invoker to fit a lot better.

[MiKeMiTchi]

I agree. Traveler and Invoker would fit better.
Now it's up to Sir LD to implement them..

[LastingDawn]

Done and done, thank you for all your help Philsov, this should balance things a fair bit.