FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[gatebuster202]

@ Jumza. I'm very aware . Like I said a month or two of poking. We'd be really limited. Really really limited. Like Patch only limited and only in the Ability and Item files. (And maybe jobs.) That we can, mostly, safety modify, but then we'd have to overhaul the Memcard generator.

Now that is all with exhaustive testing. Or FFTMaster coming back with a Master Changelog. Something I wouldn't have kept in his position.

[Barren]

I know I said this in the past but I don't like shuriken's animation and the way it functions. Shurikens goes through walls and can hit 4 times. While I understand its a Final Fantasy game but its just a bit unrealistic for me. I do like the throw with shuriken from vanilla. I am fine with the poison proc though.

It should (at least in my opinion) be a single throw attack with a damage formula of SP*SP with the range of your movement. Of course not boosted by attack up because that would be asking for much but still. At least ninjas with lets say hidden knife and defense up can still be a bit beefy while landing those concentrated shuriken throws. I wouldn't think it'd be that broken considering that speed isn't that easy to use without dying too quickly. Thieves with throw might be an exception. Plus I think it can open up a good offensive option for anti-sandbag purposes aside from gunshots and elemental.

Of course that's only my opinion on it.

As far as Lancer skillset, I guess if we opt to go for something different we can try to borrow skills from the dragoon class in FFTA and see if we can make anything out of it.

And I know I'm not the only one thinking it but who wants to see monsters actually being used? I think a monster mash can be fun! Of course that's wishful thinking (unless it can happen and all of our dreams will indeed come true)

[gatebuster202]

@Momsters

Monsters also allow for up to 16 sprites, on the battlefield with up to twelve different monster classes. Sprite limits on monsters is all bout the palettes, so we can really make use of the medium and large maps. If someone is willing to work stats, I'm willing to take a crack at abilities. I don't do massive tweaks on the class page of Patcher.

With the way monsters only have four abilities and can't mix and match, larger teams (6 or 8) will really allow variety. I'd have to do some math/research on Arena, and how many of the customizable ability spaces it uses. (And some abilities like the Ruins and Steals can be transplanted directly to Monsters with no changes required.)

Funny that you mentioned this Barren as I just saw that section of the Master Guide for the first time yesterday. (I am, blind, at times.)

[Mudvayne]

Monsters would be awesome. I'm not sure what the plan is for them considering how strong you want them to be stat wise. We all know monsters suck in vanilla, but in certain patches, monsters have really been beefed up. Like, level 35 monsters with 400+ HP totals, depending on the class. Since they are limited to only 3/4 moves, I don't really see a problem with having some beefy monsters added to Arena for variety sake. It would add a lot more depth to strategy, IMO. I think limiting our 4 man team to maybe 2 monsters would be fine.

[Jumza]

@Momsters

Monsters also allow for up to 16 sprites, on the battlefield with up to twelve different monster classes. Sprite limits on monsters is all bout the palettes, so we can really make use of the medium and large maps. If someone is willing to work stats, I'm willing to take a crack at abilities. I don't do massive tweaks on the class page of Patcher.

With the way monsters only have four abilities and can't mix and match, larger teams (6 or 8) will really allow variety. I'd have to do some math/research on Arena, and how many of the customizable ability spaces it uses. (And some abilities like the Ruins and Steals can be transplanted directly to Monsters with no changes required.)

Teams will actually have to stay the same size... The sprite limit is still 9, an odd number meaning the highest number of unique units on each team can only be 4. Monster sprites vs human sprites does not change that.

[dw6561]

Shuriken
Personally, I don't think shuriken is too broken as it is right now. But hey, if we're giving Samurai longbows and spears to be historically accurate, might as well make ninjas obey the laws of physics. I wouldn't mind if it stayed the same though, although maybe the range could be reduced some.

A SP*SP formula would be interesting to see, given that thieves can reach 14-15 speed with speed gear and this multiplies to about 196-225 damage without zodiac compatability. And also, making the range based on move would be weird because the AI can do some stupid things like rush in and get killed if they have too much speed and move. Unless that is the balancing factor in all of this, if that's the case then go right ahead.

Lancers/Jump
As for lancers possibly getting a new skill set, the FFTA dragoon idea sounds pretty cool. I'm sad to say, however, that I have never actually played FFTA (ok not really sad, I'd take Ramza over Marche any day, and law system=bleh) but I have played A2.

Also, speaking of lancers, would it be possible to create a makeshift jump ability that is instant but has the same animations/effect as the current jump? It could just be one skill and would work in a default skill set. It sounds like a plausible idea.

Monsters
Monsters would be really cool! Obviously we would need to balance their skills or introduce some new stuff, but I would definitely like to see that sometime. Are we thinking monster skill innate, so the monster always has its fourth skill? Also it would give monster talk some use as well, since it currently is completely useless.

I'm interested in maybe helping to code/test stuff or at least see the changes by the way. Maybe not coding right now because I only just started with the ASM stuff, having done both tutorials, but I think it could be a very good learning experience. I am getting ready to start a new semester at college though so it might be tight. Let me know if I can do something, even if it's just testing.

Also, Momsters? lol.

[Barren]

I usually just test myself and this time around (like other players) I'll report anything that I see that is wrong in terms of glitches or bugs.

Monsters will have to be rebalanced to make them reliable to use. I would have to pull up some monster stats and go from there. Or if anyone else is up for the job as what would monster stats would look like if there were level 35.

After looking through philsov's report on the FFT human/monster stats this is what I discovered:

spoiler: credit to philsov.ffhacktics.com/classstats

Male Squire - Level 35 HP 115-122, MP 32-35, PA 7, MA 5, SP 8
Female Squire - Level 35 HP 107-115, MP 35-37, PA 5, MA 6, SP 8
Male Chemist - Level 35 HP 92-98, MP 31-33, PA 5, MA 5, SP 8
Female Chemist - Level 35 HP 80-86, MP 33-36, PA 4, MA 6, SP 8
Male Knight/Paladin - Level 35 HP 147-157, MP 35-37, PA 10, MA 5, SP 8
Female Knight/Paladin - Level 35 HP 137-147, MP 37-40, PA 8, MA 6, SP 8
Male Archer - Level 35 HP 115-122, MP 27-29, PA 9, MA 5, SP 8
Female Archer - Level 35 HP 107-115, MP 29-31, PA 7, MA 6, SP 8
Male Monk - Level 35 HP 178-190, MP 38-41, PA 10, MA 5, SP 8
Female Monk - Level 35 HP 166-178, MP 41-43, PA 8, MA 6, SP 8
Male Priest - Level 35 HP 98-104, MP 68-73, PA 7, MA 7, SP 8
Female Priest - Level 35 HP 91-98, MP 73-78, PA 6, MA 9, SP 8
Male Wizard - Level 35 HP 81-86, MP 73-79, PA 4, MA 10, SP 8
Female Wizard - Level 35 HP 75-81, MP 79-84, PA 3, MA 12, SP 8
Male Time Mage - Level 35 HP 81-86, MP 68-73, PA 3, MA 8, SP 8
Female Time Mage - Level 35 HP 75-81, MP 73-78, PA 3, MA 10, SP 8
Male Summoner - Level 35 HP 72-76, MP 83-89, PA 3, MA 8, SP 7
Female Summoner - Level 35 HP 67-72, MP 89-95, PA 2, MA 10, SP 7
Male Thief - Level 35 HP 103-110, MP 21-22, PA 8, MA 3, SP 9
Female Thief - Level 35 HP 96-103, MP 22-24, PA 6, MA 5, SP 9
Male Mediator - Level 35 HP 92-98, MP 27-29, PA 6, MA 5, SP 8
Female Mediator - Level 35 HP 85-92, MP 29-31, PA 4, MA 6, SP 8
Male Oracle - Level 35 HP 81-86, MP 63-67, PA 3, MA 7, SP 8
Female Oracle - Level 35 HP 75-81, MP 67-72, PA 3, MA 10, SP 8
Male Geomancer - Level 35 HP 135-144, MP 50-54, PA 9, MA 7, SP 8
Female Geomancer - Level 35 HP 126-135, MP 54-58, PA 7, MA 8, SP 8
Male Lancer - Level 35 HP 147-157, MP 21-23, PA 10, MA 3, SP 8
Female Lancer - Level 35 HP 137-147, MP 23-25, PA 8, MA 4, SP 8
Male Samurai - Level 35 HP 81-86, MP 34-36, PA 11, MA 6, SP 8
Female Samurai - Level 35 HP 75-81, MP 36-39, PA 8, MA 7, SP 8
Male Ninja - Level 35 HP 75-80, MP 24-25, PA 10, MA 5, SP 10
Female Ninja - Level 35 HP 70-75, MP 25-27, PA 8, MA 6, SP 10
Male Mime - Level 35 HP 246-262, MP 14-15, PA 11, MA 8, SP 9
Female Mime - Level 35 HP 229-246, MP 15-16, PA 9, MA 10, SP 9
Ahriman - Level 35 HP 153-166, MP 11-17, PA 12-15, MA 24-29, SP 6
Behemoth - Level 35 HP 326-354, MP 15-22, PA 12-15, MA 27-33, SP 8
Black Chocobo - Level 35 HP 147-159, MP 18-28, PA 13-16, MA 27-33, SP 6
Black Goblin - Level 35 HP 176-191, MP 4-6, PA 9-11, MA 22-27, SP 7
Blue Dragon - Level 35 HP 276-300, MP 13-20, PA 12-14, MA 27-33, SP 8
Bomb - Level 35 HP 156-169, MP 2-3, PA 9-11, MA 24-29, SP 7
Bone Snatch - Level 35 HP 209-227, MP 5-7, PA 11-13, MA 22-27, SP 7
Bull Demon - Level 35 HP 276-300, MP 1-1, PA 11-13, MA 26-31, SP 7
Cocatoris - Level 35 HP 190-201, MP 1-1, PA 14-16, MA 26-31, SP 9
Cuar - Level 35 HP 186-202, MP 7-11, PA 10-12, MA 27-33, SP 9
Dark Behemoth - Level 35 HP 375-407, MP 20-30, PA 19-23, MA 27-33, SP 8
Dragon - Level 35 HP 272-296, MP 9-14, PA 12-15, MA 26-31, SP 8
Explosive - Level 35 HP 227-247, MP 5-7, PA 10-12, MA 25-30, SP 6
Flotiball - Level 35 HP 168-178, MP 13-15, PA 8-9, MA 23-28, SP 7
Ghoul - Level 35 HP 152-165, MP 15-23, PA 8-9, MA 27-33, SP 7
Gobbledeguck - Level 35 HP 200-218, MP 9-14, PA 10-12, MA 24-28, SP 8
Goblin - Level 35 HP 214-233, MP 5-7, PA 9-10, MA 22-26, SP 7
Great Morbol - Level 35 HP 302-328, MP 1-1, PA 9-10, MA 11-13, SP 6
Grenade - Level 35 HP 159-173, MP 3-5, PA 7-9, MA 24-29, SP 7
Gust - Level 35 HP 150-163, MP 12-18, PA 8-10, MA 27-33, SP 7
Holy Dragon - Level 35 HP 266-289, MP 14-21, PA 13-16, MA 32-38, SP 9
Hydra - Level 35 HP 332-360, MP 20-30, PA 13-16, MA 10-12, SP 9
Hyudra - Level 35 HP 266-288, MP 6-9, PA 12-14, MA 9-11, SP 8
Juravis - Level 35 HP 165-179, MP 5-7, PA 9-11, MA 22-26, SP 7
King Behemoth - Level 35 HP 349-379, MP 17-26, PA 14-17, MA 26-31, SP 8
Living Bone - Level 35 HP 235-255, MP 3-5, PA 11-13, MA 23-27, SP 7
Mindflare - Level 35 HP 169-183, MP 20-30, PA 11-14, MA 24-28, SP 7
Minitaurus - Level 35 HP 328-356, MP 1-1, PA 14-16, MA 26-31, SP 7
Morbol - Level 35 HP 292-317, MP 1-2, PA 9-11, MA 10-12, SP 6
Ochu - Level 35 HP 242-263, MP 1-2, PA 10-12, MA 12-14, SP 6
Pisco Demon - Level 35 HP 198-215, MP 15-22, PA 8-9, MA 25-30, SP 7
Plague - Level 35 HP 157-171, MP 17-26, PA 11-13, MA 31-37, SP 7
Porky - Level 35 HP 127-138, MP 1-1, PA 7-8, MA 28-34, SP 9
Red Chocobo - Level 35 HP 248-269, MP 11-16, PA 12-14, MA 25-31, SP 9
Red Dragon - Level 35 HP 321-349, MP 14-21, PA 13-16, MA 29-35, SP 9
Red Panther - Level 35 HP 237-258, MP 6-9, PA 9-10, MA 23-28, SP 8
Revenant - Level 35 HP 170-185, MP 8-12, PA 8-10, MA 28-34, SP 8
Sacred - Level 35 HP 309-336, MP 1-1, PA 16-19, MA 26-31, SP 8
Skeleton - Level 35 HP 268-291, MP 6-9, PA 9-11, MA 22-26, SP 8
Squidlarkin - Level 35 HP 211-229, MP 14-21, PA 9-11, MA 25-30, SP 7
Steel Giant - Level 35 HP 313-340, MP 1-1, PA 14-17, MA 1-1, SP 7
Steel Hawk - Level 35 HP 156-169, MP 7-11, PA 9-11, MA 23-28, SP 9
Taiju - Level 35 HP 321-349, MP 18-28, PA 8-10, MA 25-31, SP 6
Tiamat - Level 35 HP 372-404, MP 11-16, PA 17-20, MA 12-15, SP 9
Trent - Level 35 HP 238-259, MP 22-33, PA 8-9, MA 24-29, SP 6
Uribo - Level 35 HP 106-115, MP 1-1, PA 6-7, MA 28-34, SP 9
Vampire - Level 35 HP 202-220, MP 8-13, PA 12-14, MA 22-26, SP 9
Wildbow - Level 35 HP 118-128, MP 1-1, PA 14-17, MA 28-34, SP 9
Woodman - Level 35 HP 275-299, MP 20-30, PA 9-11, MA 26-31, SP 6
Yellow Chocobo - Level 35 HP 180-196, MP 12-18, PA 9-11, MA 24-29, SP 8

I didn't include the bards, dancers and calculators because their stats is terrible and I do like how our current bards, dancers and scholars are (at least until next patch). So with all of these stats collected I was thinking of rebalancing some of the classes. I know we already discussed some beforehand but I was thinking maybe we can borrow this data and tweak them. I do think not all of the of the human stats needs to be touched though, some are just fine as they are. Monsters obviously will need a buff in speed and to some degree HP. I don't remember all of their skills off the top of my head but I do know quite a few that are obvious i.e. uribo, porky and wildbow has nose breath which inflicts charm instantly. So what should we do with these stats do you think?

[gatebuster202]

Teams will actually have to stay the same size... The sprite limit is still 9, an odd number meaning the highest number of unique units on each team can only be 4. Monster sprites vs human sprites does not change that.

Jumza, can we limit it to 4 monster families a side? Because I know you can get away with a sixteen man brawl as long as you don't break (9) or 8 unique sprites. I was thinking that, we'd have some changes to team building once we added monsters. The classic 4v4 need not be altered, but one Monster "family" per side would allow an additional number of combatants. Also we could do a monster specific tourney. Where you build a four man human team and each side gets one chocobo. Or Goblin. Ectra. That fills the ninth slot and we get to see bigger tourneys. Of course we'll still have our standard but monsters opens up lots of possibilities.

[Kurosabes]

If you load up a save file that has other areas unlocked besides Deep Dungeon with Arena and enter a random battle, you will see FFMaster has put some thought on how monsters could be. I've gathered what was in the 138d Patcher since I can't open 139 for some reason. I don't know what this dates from since some of them seem OP but we could go from there for ideas.

spoiler: Arena Monster abilities

Lots of monster skills can be countered with Counter Magic and Counter Flood.


Choco Meteor: +125% damage
Choco Cure: +33% healing
Goblin Punch: 3 range
Turn Punch: 2 AoE, Evadeable
Eye Gouge: Cancels Performing
Mutilate: ???
Small Bomb: 4 range, 2 AoE 3 Vertical, Y increased to 7, Fire elemental (Fire 4 animation)
Flame Attack: +33% damage
Spark: +50% damage
Cat Kick: Cancels Charging - Performing (0 damage since it uses WP-based formula)
Blaster: Hit rate -10%
Poison Nail: 3 Range
Blood Suck: No longer damages, just MA+40% to inflict Blood Suck
Black Ink: Cancels Performing
Mind Blast: Hit rate +5%, Evadeable
Level Blast: Set CT00, 3 Range 3 Vertical (threshold)
Thunder/Aqua/Ice Soul: Damage multiplied by 5
Wind Soul: Damage multiplied by 3.33
Drain Touch: Absorb 50% MP, Faith-based hit rate (but unlikely to miss since it is 200% hit rate)
Grease Touch: Adds Stop, Hit rate -15%
Look of Devil: Hit rate +5%
Circle: Range decreased to 3, Hit rate -25%, Evadeable, -5 MA
Shine Lover: Adds Regen and Haste, self-target only, can be silenced (this one is kind of a mess, I'm not sure what he was trying to make here)
Feather bomb: Damage +100%
Beaking: Hit rate -15%, -5 PA
Straight Dash: 2 Vertical
Nose Bracelet: 2 Vertical, Hit rate +215% (basically a guaranteed Charm)
Leaf Dance: 2 AoE 3 Vertical
Protect Spirit: Hit rate +25%, 2 AoE 3 Vertical, Hits Caster
Calm Spirit: Same as above
Life Spirit: Cancels Dead, 2 AoE Vertical 3, restores 20% HP
Magic Spirit: HealHP PA*10, HealMP PA*5, 2 AoE 3 Vertical (basically a stronger Chakra)
Mimic Titan: Damage +66%, Vertical 2
Blow Fire: Damage +50%
Magic Lick: Cancels everything. 1 Vertical
Goo: Adds Don't Act, Hit_(MA+50%)
Bad Breath: 1 Vertical, only adds Oil or Poison
Moldball Virus: Hit rate +25%
Hurricane: Also Dark elemental
Ulmaguest: 6 CT, Hit_(MA+80%), Evadeable
Tail Swing: Y increased to 20 (+33%)
Cold Breath: Y = 14
Flame Breath: Y = 15 (x3 damage from vanilla)
Thunder Breath: Y = 13
Triple Attack: Vertical 2 (Damage becomes 0 due to new WP based formula unless they can equip weapons)
Triple Bracelet: Dark elemental
Triple Thunder: 1 Vertical, Y = 4
Triple Flame: 1 Vertical, Y = 8
Dark Whisper: 1 Vertical

[gatebuster202]

WKW, that's awesome. Thank you very much. I'll pour over this and then see just how many abilities we have to work with. From there, I'll see about putting together a basic design doc, and then actually doing the changes on paper, and doing math with anyone willing to work on the stats, to create a more balanced playset. The question should be then, balance monsters to monsters, or monsters to EVERYTHING?

[silentkaster]

WKW, that's awesome. Thank you very much. I'll pour over this and then see just how many abilities we have to work with. From there, I'll see about putting together a basic design doc, and then actually doing the changes on paper, and doing math with anyone willing to work on the stats, to create a more balanced playset. The question should be then, balance monsters to monsters, or monsters to EVERYTHING?

I think at least some of this came from the old 1.3 patch so depending on the ability, it may be balanced to somewhat favor monsters at this time (possibly).

However, I think that they should be balanced to everything. Perhaps one way to simplify and streamline the process is to have one tier instead of three for monsters (although I'm not 100% for keeping it this way but it would be a decent way to introduce monsters at least without overwhelming the designer).

[Barren]

Me and Reks were talking about the mage masher dagger. No one uses it because there's a lot of silence protection going on. Maybe we should ditch the mage masher and call it something else?

I was thinking the mage masher to gladius and it can trigger slow. I'm thinking 50% chance or 33%. Of course in order to do that we should remove the slow proc chance from the heaven's cloud katana. Maybe give that katana a increase in weapon power

[silentkaster]

Me and Reks were talking about the mage masher dagger. No one uses it because there's a lot of silence protection going on. Maybe we should ditch the mage masher and call it something else?

I was thinking the mage masher to gladius and it can trigger slow. I'm thinking 50% chance or 33%. Of course in order to do that we should remove the slow proc chance from the heaven's cloud katana. Maybe give that katana a increase in weapon power

Ohhhhh it would become pretty deadly with 2S and repel knife proc. I'm in

[Reks]

So, in talks with Barren I got the idea to change a few of the Katana procs to their respective Draw Out.

100% sounds good, but if that's too powerful then at least 50% is still decent.

Katanas would thus become more appealing to some.

Attacking would get extra damage from a slash, but be limited to a single target.

Draw Out would be as useful as it is already with AoE. No extra attack damage, though.




It'd be up to you guys to decide which gets their respective Draw Out, though.

I got the idea from Barren talking about Mage Masher losing Bizen Boat, and that Kiku technically HAS that already albeit in the form of Quake over itself.

[Gaignun]

I am cool with a new Shuriken skill.  However, bear in mind that damage based on SP scales superlinearly: SP increases both damage and frequency.  What's more, SP*SP would scale faster than a second-order polynomial.  No other skill in FFTA scales nearly this fast. Accordingly, balance will require us to make the skill incredibly weak at low SP values, like Punch Art at low PA before its formula became linear.

In consideration of this, I would recommend a different formula, like WP*X.  I wonder if it is possible to make damage formula immutable so that damage is not affected by Protect, Attack UP, and Defense UP.  No skill other than Cover Fire (to an extent) ignores such modifiers, so it could fulfill a unique role.

[Barren]

Or maybe we can use a formula that would be like (SP-1)(SP) or maybe something along the lines of ((SP+8)/2*SP)

To give you a quick example of what I am proposing, if we did the (SP-1)(SP)

Ninja with its innate 9 Speed, that would mean (9-1)(9) = 72 at neutral compatibility.
Good/Bad compatibility would equal to 81/63 damage respectively
Best/Worst compatibility would equal to 90/54 damage respectively

That isn't too bad considering that shuriken is instant throw single damage and should obey the laws of physics by not going through walls

Now lets say if we max out a unit with 15 speed. Thief is probably best for it.

Thief with its innate 15 Speed, that would mean (15-1)(15) = 210 at neutral compatibility.
Good/Bad compatibility would equal to 236/184 damage respectively
Best/Worst compatibility would equal to 262/158 damage respectively

Now that is insane damage but if you go the 15 speed route you risk getting KO'd almost immediately due to the low HP, unless you have a haste/slow on your side. Of course if you factor in defense UP and protect then the damage despite the speed should be significantly lower. If the 15 speed unit has only 4 move then its range would only be 4. Just like in vanilla. The poison proc can still stay because at least it can sill have its lasting effect.

Now if we did the other formula I proposed, it would look like this:

Ninja with its innate 9 speed. ((9+8)/2*9) = 77 damage at neutral compatibility
Good/Bad compatibility would equal to 87/67 damage respectively
Best/Worst compatibility would equal to 96/58 damage respectively

Now thief with maxed out 15 speed. ((15+8)/2*15) = 173 damage at neutral compatibility
Good/Bad compatibility would equal to 194/152 damage respectively
Best/Worst compatibility would equal to 216/130 damage respectively

Now that is a little lower in case anyone feels the first formula is a bit too powerful and I don't mind if anyone wants to tweak these formulas to get them to work. I just figured I can borrow other damage calculations and let speed be a factor this time other than PA or MA

[Gaignun]

That's still superlinear.  Raw damage is increasing by a factor of 2.92 (formula 1) and 2.25 (formula 2) for a SP increase of 1.67.  Upon factoring in turn frequency, total damage output is increasing by factors of 4.86 and 3.75, respectively.

210 damage at 15 SP (formula 1) is really good.  You'll be dealing nearly 420 damage for every one of an 8 SP unit's turn.  On the other hand, 77 damage at 9 SP (formula 2) is really bad.  This is what I mean by balancing superlinear formulas: Either the maximum damage is too good, or the minimum damage is too bad.

[Barren]

What formula would you suggest then? I remember back in the day the formula was SP*WP. Maybe we outta bring it back? Or perhaps add PA to one of the speed calculations? I know I'm no expert at balancing but at least I'm trying

[Mudvayne]

Is it possible for a weapon to increase crit % as a buff?

I think that would be cool to add to maybe a katana or something. 25% increased chance of a critical strike? I'm not sure what the crit chance is currently (like 1-2%?) but it's pretty low, I think being able to increase it could be an attractive option to some people. I know I would use it, at least.

I was thinking maybe in combination with the Berserk on Chiri and have it lose +1 speed instead. Add Initial: Berserk and 25% increased chance of critical melee strike sounds good. Maybe a bit too strong though now that I think of it, so maybe something like -1 speed may balance it out. This is just off the top of my head, no real thought has really been put into it besides the initial idea of having weapons add to your critical strike %.

[Gaignun]

What formula would you suggest then? I remember back in the day the formula was SP*WP. Maybe we outta bring it back? Or perhaps add PA to one of the speed calculations? I know I'm no expert at balancing but at least I'm trying

I know. I'm just trying to help.  If you really want SP in the formula, then SP*WP is a good upper limit.  We just gotta avoid those SP*SP products.