Final Fantasy Hacktics

Quote from: Darthatron on April 22, 2011, 03:14:31 pm
Pretty much everything that's on data crystal is all we have. I really need a C function, or at least an algorithm, to decompress some data: http://datacrystal.romhacking.net/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Tactics_Advance:Compression_Formats#LZSS

Also, just an excel sheet stating reasonable values for all the stats for each job. Both are pretty big jobs, but anyone can do the stat sheet. You don't really need to understand ROM Hacking to do it. But nobody is willing to dedicate the time.

Lol, I really have almost no idea what you mean for the first one.  But for the excel sheet, if you mean going in to microsoft excel and typing all of jobs' stat values (ones that I believe would suffice), then I could do it if you want me to.  I've get them down in a word document but it'll be really easy for me to transfer them, just let me know.

I'll probably post it in this thread or in my stat balancing thread or in both.

Quote from: MysticKnightFF5 on April 28, 2011, 07:00:28 am
Or better yet, stick to the original idea of just rebalancing the game and not attempting to fix a story that's better written than most anybody on these boards can do.

I do have to say that I was actually impressed at the kiddie story.  I'm in Ap Euro right now and I've JUST REALIZED how hilariously political this story is, what with all of the rumors and judging of the palace; that really took me by surprise.  In all actuality, there is a surprising amount of depth within the story, more so than I had originally anticipated.

But, there's added "Lore" within this game's fanfiction that I actually found very interesting as well.

For balance issues when it comes to Reactions, here's what I got:
- Absorb Mp:  I really don't find this very useful
- Block Arrows:  Kinda ridiculous but isn't a priority.  Maybe instead of blocking all arrow based skills, maybe make it raise evade against arrow skills by like 30 % or something, if possible.
- Damage > Mp:  Broken, already known.  Could be removed.
- Reflex:  Like Block Arrows in that it should either by removed or nerfed.
- Return Magic:  The biggest problem I have with this is that not only is it not that useful but you use the same amount of Mp but only target the one person who hit you.  To fix that, maybe when countering magic, you should use up half of the normal Mp instead of all because otherwise, it's a bit of a waste of good Mp.
- Strikeback:  'Nuff said...

Has anyone else noticed that all reaction abilities cost 300 Ap?  Especially when some really shouldn't be.  Things like Auto-Regen, Absorb Mp, and Counter should cost like 200 Ap instead.

For Supports: things like Shieldbearer, Monkey Grip, and Maintenance aren't all that useful.  Obviously Turbo Mp and Concentrate are overpowered.

As for formulas, there's a guide out there that gives out a lot of these formulas, Darthratron had the link in the other thread.
The only big one that I haven't found from that guide is the healing formula.  I know it involves Magic and the recipient's Max Hp, but other than that...I dunno.

What I really wish, is that we could hold like twice the amount of Law Cards, at least.  But yeah, permanent stat reduction and equipment theft is severely uncalled for.

But does anyone else other than me feel that Armor reduces damage by very little and don't seem that dynamic?  I fought this Paladin with like Golden Armor and my attack was going to do 56 damage but after having that stolen, my character did around 43 damage even though there's like a 36 difference in Defense...

Okay, thanks, I'm still not sure how that works very well but it makes more sense to me now.
And I'll have to agree that about 1/3rd or all jobs should be reworked (Assassin, Summoner, Tinker, Thief, Ninja, ect.) 
Although that does seem easier to balance, I'm not sure how much work it'll take to implement that into this game.

I was going to make a discussion about how the jobs should be reworked but since Darthratron is the only one working on it, I don't know what he's done to change things.

I'm gonna be out of town, so I might not be able to see for a while, but I'd definitely like to see what you think.

I haven't listed any stat changes that I wanted yet, those are all just the actual stat growths from the game data.  I've never played Tactics Ogre so I don't know...

Well anyways, before we go into the individual stats, there are quite a few things that should be addressed that affect the job system as a whole.

  1.  Hp - I have a summoner (highest magick) with Turbo Mp and Black Robe attack my Warrior (highest Hp) and Black Mage (highest Resist).  The attack deals 237 to my Warrior and 186 to my Black Mage. The thing is, my Warrior had 263 Hp and my Black Mage had 158 Hp.
  In short, the massive gap between the different jobs' Hp is ridiculous.  In this example, why does it matter that you have such high Resist when you still won't survive as long as other jobs with much lower Resist because their Hp is so high.  And not mention how you'll fare against physical attack like, I dunno, Holy Blade?

  The other problem with Hp, 2-hit and even 1-hit K.O.s are way too easily.  Not entirely sure to remedy this, perhaps by raising the general Defenses of every job?  And also, raising the effectiveness of Armor in general because they really don't make that much of a difference.

  2.  Mp - this one's also completely obvious, but this also has multiple problems.  One, some jobs have such high Mp growth that you could use Turbo Mp and not worry about losing Mp because you kill them off so fast.  The other problem is that most jobs have such low Mp growth that Matra Magick is borderline cheap for ignoring all traces of Defenses but is nearly useless towards monsters since most of them have their Hp and Mp very close to each other at all levels.
  I have multiple ideas for this one.
     A.  Reduce Mp growths for Mage jobs in general, but slightly increase Mp growths for non-Mage jobs.
     B.  Remove or nerf Turbo Mp (perhaps by getting rid of the Accuracy boost).
     C.  Increase the general Mp usage (Fire: 8 Mp, Fira: 16 Mp, Firaga: 32 Mp, Holy Blade: 48 Mp, Ultima: 64 Mp)
     D.  Slightly decrease the Mp growths of monsters in general to increase the usefulness of Matra Magick towards non-Human targets.

  3.  Speed - If you take a good look at the stat growths, you'll notice that around, if not, more than half of all jobs have a speed of 1.2 or lower.  All the while the lowest is 0.8 and the highest is 2.3 (Assassin) - that's nearly a 3* difference.
  As you said, Pickly Girl Fanboy, I too don't believe that any job should ever have a 0 in speed.  I believe that the speed stat should be so much more equitable, especially on those who have poor stat growths because generally: the poorer the stat growth, the faster. But obviously, such is not always the case.  I'll use the Humes as an example:
  - Soldier:  1.4 Speed (the average)
  - White Mage:   1.6 Speed (I wanted a speed increase because they have undesirable otherwise, Black Mage is usually the much better option barring the lesser Mp, Hp, and Defense.  But since you're a Mage, that doesn't matter much as the difference is diminutive at best).
  - Black Mage:  1.4 Speed
  - Thief:  1.9 Speed
  - Archer:  1.7 Speed (they need a lot of speed because before, their stat growths were even worse than Thieves' which is already pretty bad)
  - Fighter:  1.5 Speed
  - Paladin:  1.1 Speed (equal to the lowest because of a very good stat growth and cheap skill)
  - Ninja:  2.1 Speed (unchanged)
  - Hunter:  1.8 Speed
  - Blue Mage:  1.4 Speed
  - Illusionist:  1.2 Speed
  - Assassin:  2.2 Speed (the highest of all jobs, this way the difference between the lowest and highest is only 2* rather than 3*)
  - White Monk:  1.7 Speed (speed in general for Bangaa is really bad since there's no Master Monk or Trickster, and not to mention, White Monk's stat growths aren't the best because they don't lead well into any other job available to them)

If there isn't already a Stat Chart out there, here's one I gathered up using the game data.

Order is:  Hp, Mp, Speed, Atk, Def, Mag, Res

- Soldier/Warrior-
Hume:    8.4   1.1   1.1   8.8   8.8   6.0   7.2
Bangaa:  9.2   2.1   0.9   9.2   8.4   6.2   6.8

- Paladin/Defender-
Hume:    7.6   2.2   0.8   8.1   9.2   7.2   8.8
Bangaa:  8.4   1.1   0.9   8.8   9.4   6.5   7.2

- Fighter/Gladiator-
Hume:    7.2   1.1   1.1   9.2   8.1   5.6   6.8
Bangaa:  9.2   2.8   1.1   9.4   8.8   5.9   6.4
- Thief-
Hume:    6.6   1.1   1.8   7.6   7.6   7.6   6.4
Moogle:  5.8   2.2   1.9   7.3   8.4   6.8   7.6

- Ninja-
Hume:    5.8   2.1   2.1   8.4   7.2   8.1   7.6

- White Mage-
Hume:    6.1   4.8   1.2   6.2   7.3   8.4   8.2
Nu Mou: 5.8   5.6   1.1   5.7   7.3   8.8   8.4
Viera:    6.2   4.8   1.2   6.2   7.2   8.8   7.6

- Black Mage-
Hume:    5.6   4.4   1.1   6.4   6.8   8.8   9.6
Nu Mou: 5.4   5.2   0.9   6.2   6.8   9.2   10.2
Moogle:  5.4   4.8   1.1   5.7   7.6   8.4   9.7

- Illusionist-
Hume:    5.2   7.1   0.9   6.1   6.4   9.2   8.4
Nu Mou: 5.1   7.5   0.8   5.7   6.4   9.7   8.7

- Blue Mage-
Hume:    6.8   3.6   1.2   8.1   8.4   8.4   9.2

- Archer-
Hume:    7.2   1.1   1.4   7.2   7.2   6.4   8.1
Viera:     7.2   1.6   1.6   8.1   6.8   7.2   7.6

- Hunter-
Hume:    6.8   3.2   1.7   8.8   6.8   6.8   8.4

- Dragoon-
Bangaa: 8.2   1.2   1.1   9.6   8.4   5.6   6.4

- White Monk-
Bangaa: 6.4   1.1   1.4   8.1   7.6   8.4   6.8

- Bishop-
Bangaa: 6.1   4.6   0.9   7.2   6.8   8.8   7.6

- Templar-
Bangaa: 7.2   3.6   0.8   8.2   9.7   8.4   7.6

- Time Mage-
Nu Mou: 5.2   3.6   1.2   5.6   6.8   10.2   9.6
Moogle:  5.2   3.6   1.2   5.6   7.6   9.2   9.6

- Alchemist-
Nu Mou: 6.1   8.4   0.9   5.9   6.5   9.2   9.6

- Beastmaster-
Nu Mou: 7.4   2.1   1.2   8.8   8.8   6.8   8.4

- Morpher-
Nu Mou: 6.8   2.8   1.6   7.1   8.2   7.6   8.2

- Sage-
Nu Mou: 7.6   8.8   0.8   8.4   7.6   9.2   7.6

- Fencer-
Viera:    7.6   1.1   1.5   8.4   8.1   7.6   7.2

- Elementalist-
Viera:    6.8   4.2   1.1   8.1   7.6   8.8   7.6

- Red Mage-
Viera:    6.8   2.6   1.3   8.1   7.6   8.4   7.6

- Summoner-
Viera:    5.6   6.2   0.9   6.5   6.4   10.1   8.4

- Assassin-
Viera:    5.2   5.2   2.3   8.8   6.8   9.2   7.2

- Sniper-
Viera:    6.2   2.4   1.8   9.4   6.8   7.6   7.6

-Animist-
Moogle:  7.2   2.6   1.2   7.6   8.8   7.2   8.8

- Mog Knight-
Moogle:  7.1   3.2   1.0   8.8   9.6   6.2   8.3

- Gunner-
Moogle:  6.2   1.1   1.1   6.8   9.2   5.6   8.1

- Juggler-
Moogle:  6.8   1.6   1.7   8.2   9.9   6.5   6.5

- Gadgeteer-
Moogle:  7.2   2.4   0.9   8.2   9.6   8.3   10.2

This topic is meant for discussing how stat growths of jobs in Final Fantasy Tactics Advance should be modified in an attempt to further balance the game.

Note:  I have no real hacking experience nor do I have any hint of the progress made to re-balance the game.  Because of the that, opinions may vary significantly until a further unified, and general consensus is reached.  Opinions are greatly valued here, please don't hesitate to state your own.

Obviously there are certain factors there have to be examined when one should determine the modified stat growths, they are:
1.  Common Sense - Self-explanatory, this should perhaps have the biggest influence, just underneath #3.  A Time Mage should not be dealing 200 damage by smacking someone with a "wooden stick", nor should a Fighter have the highest defense in the game.
2.  Actual Game Data - Again, simple enough.  The original stat growths SHOULD NOT be drastically changed unless major editing had been/or is needed in order to balance the game out - which leads into the next factor.
3.  Moveset - Another major factor.  A game where there is one job that simply outclasses all the others in terms of great stats AS WELL as a broken moveset is anything but balanced.  Assassin is the most obvious example, if the moveset is not greatly tampered (in this case, nerfed), then a relatively massive drop in stat growths can be justifiable (although I wouldn't be one in support of such.)  Another example is the Gunner, excellent, if not, broken moveset, yet mostly lackluster stats (barring Defense).  Though the stats aren't the best, that doesn't excuse the fact that the class itself is borderline broken (therefore I believe that the moveset of a Gunner should be edited, rather than the stats themselves).

These are some minor factors that may also be considered:
1.  Race - obviously a Hume Black Mage should not be magickally stronger than Nu Mou Black Mage.
2.  Stats from FFTA2 - this is SQNX's attempt to balance out the game.  Quite a few jobs are far more reasonable stat-wise here, however there still are some that aren't quite suitable in this game.
3.  Advancement - to simply put, no starting-class should be the best of any stat except MAYBE Black Mage as in many games, they have the highest Magick stat in the game (in this game, however, they have the 2nd highest Resistance instead).  Though the stats between starting-classes and later classes ought to be present, they should be rather minuscule at best.
4.  Distribution - Balanced job classes seem to have quite significantly higher stats than the others (not counting Paladin) like Blue Mage, Sage, Templar, and Gadgeteer.  Not entirely sure as to why that is so, but I do support following this.  As it usually doesn't not seem to be imbalanced excepted in Sage's case.
In FFTA2, Beastmaster was given greater Atk, which is fine if there is something else to compensate, in this case, it was Def (again, the difference was not major).
5.  Stat/Skill buildup - one of the main problems of jobs that have good (not great) skillsets or stats is that their skills do not carry over to other jobs very well despite being fairly good stand-alone jobs.  A good example would  White Monks, they have relatively good stat growths and an exceptional skillset, but neither of them are too useful when used as a different job.  Fencer is included, good skills but, aren't good for really ANY of the other Viera jobs.
6.  Gimmicks - as it seems in both FFTA and FFTA2, gimmicky jobs have either very good stats, or just awful stats along with a bad moveset.  (Most of these classes are in dire need of skill modification rather than their stats.)  The most prominent examples are:  Gadgeteer, Thief (whom have a very significant/broken role), Animist, Morphor, Beastmaster.  Gadgeteer probably has THE BEST stat total in the game:  7.2 Hp, 8.2 Atk, 9.6 Def, 8.3 Mag, 10.2 Res.  But these in no way excuse their horrid moveset, Gadgeteers, next to Thieves, are in most need of a total moveset change.

Other things to discuss:

Special characters - really something extra and is not needed whatsoever, a trait evident in the original Tactics but not in Advance or in A2.  Main/unique characters should have slightly better growths to further distinguish themselves (at least in their base job, that is).  Like how Marche starts as a Soldier and already on the road to being a Paladin/Fighter with no chance of being a good Mage, whatsoever.  And how Montblanc starts as a Black Mage...A MOOGLE Black Mage to be exact, even Bishops exceed Moogle Mages in terms of practically and especially in versatility.  

These two are characters you have from the beginning and I don't believe should be so deeply pigeon holed from the start.  Marche at least has some lee-way as a Hunter or Ninja, but MontBlanc is just...

Again, opinions are much appreciated.

Whenever I edit a job's stats and I go to the status menu, the game freezes - every time.  But jobs that haven't been edited don't freeze.

And it's not that it doesn't work because I know it does (especially when I raise the Hp a lot), but still, it freezes.

Just curious, if anyone already has testing version because I'd be really anxious to play it.

Thanks, I'm just starting to play this game again.

Overall, I really liked it but it definitely could use a lot of work that would make it a better game overall.

I could have a single class by class discussion for like each of the jobs, I'd like to see anyone else's thoughts about them too.

Mp:  In this game, everyone recovers 5 Mp every turn, which most seem to agree is a lot, so would making them recover only 2 Mp every turn be better since you already start out with your maximum Mp from the start of the battle already.  Or we could generally reduce the Mp growth to more reasonable levels.

Experience:  It's way too easy to level up, so is there a way to make sure that a person could level up no more than twice in a battle and then get no more exp afterward?

Evasion:  Should be rebalanced, 30 Evasion is quite ridiculous: a mage has very low Hp, low very defense, and really can't dodge anything...quite fair if you ask me.

A.I.:  just wanted to put here, but it seems everyone already talked about it.

Laws:  some of the laws are ridiculous, is their a way to make the penalty for breaking a law a more lenient?  Oh, and is anyone else bothered that Doublecast can break laws without being harmed?

Equipment: 
- Thief's stealing abilities are broken, I remember someone suggesting that the ability maintenance should be added on to more enemies.
- Was anyone else bothered that weapons (staves) barely ever rose more than 2 magic atk?  Getting better staves only meant getting better spells and more weapon atk., just like it would be for every other weapon in the game, only mages barely ever used weapon atk. so that bonus is really wasted (which was rather minuscule to begin with).
- Am I the only one who thinks that Gunners have too much range?  I thought that lowering their range by one was fine, though.
- Some of the later weapons outclass all the others by a good margin.
- Some accessories really aren't that useful.

Humes:
- Ninja's skill set was awful, could be considered worse version of Elementalist as they are both elemental and give added effects, therefore accomplish the same, exact thing.  Though Elementals cost more Mp, that's hardly a problem in this game, as Elementals are significantly stronger than Veils, not to mention, Elementalists can heal.  Moveset should either be changed altogether, or at least more powerful.
- Doublesword is pretty cheap...
- Lots of Blue Magic are either overpowered or borderline useless, this could be remedied either by nerfing the effects of the overpowered ones and trying make the useless ones a little better.  Or we could simply edit the specific Blue Magic that can be learned in the first place, and make that list more balanced.
- Illusions are very weak (weaker than fire 1) for the amount of Mp cost they consume, it's almost ridiculous.
- Archer has pretty bad stats, but the moveset is surprisingly useful.

Moogles:
- Animist:  the moveset is interesting and fairly unique, but there is magic atk. involved in some of those skills and Animist doesn't really have much magic atk. in the first place.
- Black Mage:  Moogle black mages are awful.  8.4 in Magic atk. is really pathetic considering the only advantage they have over the other black mages out there is their better Mp and defense, but the others simply make them really unneeded.
- Gadgeteer:  Someone already said it:  they really need a moveset change or maybe even need to be removed all together to replace with another job.  But they do have one of the best stat growths in the game.
- Time Mage:  again, Moogle time mages just can't compare to either Nu Mou time mage, and Quick is completely outclassed by Smile.  These guys need a stat change.
- Juggler:  they have great stats, and even better moves (gigantic Defense, good speed and atk), but Smile is broken and needs to be nerfed somehow.

Viera:
- Fencer:  the skills aren't all that great, you never really want to use Fencers because Snipers and Assassins just have way better skills.  They should have higher atk. like they did in FFTA2.
- Red Mage:  spells are way weak, and Poison is pretty much a wasted spot for them here.  The stats also aren't bad, but aren't that good either.  Someone already suggested that Doublecast should somehow either only work on Red Magic or on any spell set other than Summon Magic, because without it the summons, Doublecast really isn't that great (except for law-breaking).
- Assassin:  already discussed, coupled with Concentrate, instant death in multiple ways.  Ultima doesn't make things any fairer, not to mention very good stats (they apparently have more Magic than Red Mage and Moogle Black Mage).
- Elementalist:  even though the spells themselves are pretty good, they become so obviously lackluster later on as you get more Summons.  The fact that most Elemental Magic only effects one person doesn't help either.

Nu Mou:
- Morphor:  as everyone already said, they need to be changed or removed completely.  It doesn't seem like there's away to balance them out effectively.

Bangaa:
- Most of their stats and skills are good without being overpowered.  But I found that Templars weren't very useful, like at all.  And Bishops are also really weak and need more Magic atk.