Job & Skill Proposals/Idea Thread

[The Damned]

Oh, that's what you had meant. I've known that forever. Sorry.

Although since this is a thread about class ideas, I was wondering, formerdeathcrops, how you got your Lancer to function at all. My Dragoon isn't functioning like I want it to at all; the same with my Blue Mage now since I tried to switch Battle Skill with Math Skill because I wanted to avoid slow down since my Blue Mage has quite a few AoE techniques.

@Vanya: What happened to the front page?

[formerdeathcorps]

What did you do?  Did you give blue mage the skillset of knight (as in give Knight 15 Math Skill and Blue Mage 07 Battle Skill) or did you individually replace each skill of 15 Math Skill with each skill of 07 Battle Skill and vice-versa?  If you only did the first, blue mage's mastery will be dependent on your mastery of knight, and vice-versa.

Similarly, if you modify dragoon, you must set the new skills to a previously blank skillset number (like 50) and make sure for the first X skills on lancer, you have mastered the first X skills on squire.  However, for the sake of correspondence, the previous generic jump skillset must also be an exact copy of skillset 50.

[Timbo]

Since we are on the subject.  I'm about to do something very similar.  I was going to put a blue mage in my party, until I realized just exactly how tedious it would be for the completionists to grind out 16 blue mages, and more importantly how unbalancing it is to allow players to use iconic blue magic like bad breath, blood suck, and self destruct on standard classes.  So, like you FDC, I made Reis into a blue mage and I've decided to give her skills to the dragoon.

However, unlike you I don't the idea of having to unlock classes with spillover jp.  So, I decided to move the dragoon into the mediator class, which I'd previously eliminated.  I intend on filling Talk Skill with Reis' skills + a new Jump skill which I'm not actually sure how to create yet.  

Now, my idea is that since blank skillsets on generics will have all of their skills mastered automatically, I need to either use Spill Over JP to unlock the class or I can create a job that makes sense for its skills to be pre-mastered.  I eventually landed on the Red Mage, which works just fine if you set the requirements high enough to assume that most of those jobs will have learned those skills anyway.  

So, while the Mediator his Talk Skill are becoming the Dragoon and Dragon Arts, the Lancer and her Jump are becoming the Red Mage and Red Magic.  Now, I want to make sure I've got this right.  I need to change the original Jump Skill to Default and fill it with the 16 skills I want the Red Mage to have.  Then, I need to Assign Skillset 50, or another blankset, to the Lancer and fill it with the exact same skills I put in Jump.

Do I pretty much have that right FDC?  Also, is there a link or something for how to create a Jump Skill in a Default set?

[The Damned]

That's a smart solution, Jack. Too bad I find "generic" Red Mages totally against the point of the class system.

What did you do?  Did you give blue mage the skillset of knight (as in give Knight 15 Math Skill and Blue Mage 07 Battle Skill) or did you individually replace each skill of 15 Math Skill with each skill of 07 Battle Skill and vice-versa?  If you only did the first, blue mage's mastery will be dependent on your mastery of knight, and vice-versa.

I did the second...I think.

I'm admittedly not entirely sure what you're asking me. Math Skill has all of Knight's skills & RSMs and Battle Skill has all of Blue Mage's skills & RSMs currently, if that's what you mean. I did swap them, but that was only because of the slow down issue.

Similarly, if you modify dragoon, you must set the new skills to a previously blank skillset number (like 50) and make sure for the first X skills on lancer, you have mastered the first X skills on squire.  However, for the sake of correspondence, the previous generic jump skillset must also be an exact copy of skillset 50.

So you mean that to make sure that 12 Jump and whatever previously blank skill set have the exact skills even though I won't be using 12 Jump?

I was looking in the thread that R999 has in the PSX version sub-forum and you also said something about not having redundancies. What did you mean by that?

[Timbo]

That's a smart solution, Jack. Too bad I find "generic" Red Mages totally against the point of the class system.

I know exactly what you are talking about.  I can't stand jobs like the Mime, the Archer, the Squire and other jobs that either don't have skills, have pseudo-skills, or have skills you learn to never use.  I thought long and hard about adding the red mage to my job wheel.  I actually maxed out most of my available skill slots  I'd have to start cutting into monster attacks to add more skills and although I have a few ideas.  I don't think its necessarily worth it.  So while the Red Mage doesn't add anything new to the my job wheel, other than mana burn, he does add a rather unique feeling arrangement of abilities and equipment.

[The Damned]

...Uh, I actually don't think we're talking about the same thing at all.

I don't have a problem with Mime or Archer (though I did change Archer, mostly because I have a hell of a lot more space than I thought I would because of "pseudo-skills" as you put it). Squire is just kind of weak, which is why I've sort of done a hypocritical thing to it, but all in time.

No, more what I was talking about was that a Red Mage pretty much makes gives you know reason to ever use White Magic or Black Magic secondary considering that it generally takes enough from both those classes that it can easily sub in for them on anything but perhaps an assassination mission where you need to Nuke something/someone with Flare or Holy repeatedly.

I mean, sure, your Red Mage could borrow from other Mages as well, but that seems like it would become somewhat more infringing unless it was a beginner class.

You can also make a Red Mage already in a way using a Priest with Black Magic, Equip Sword and whatever Movement and Reaction. That's more what I was getting at.

*goes back to working on Templar*

[Timbo]

Well stated, Damned.  Yeah, I call the Archer's skills pseudo skills because while they take up space they aren't really more interesting then a basic attack.  My Red Mage borrows from the Priest, Wizard, Oracle, and Time Mage.  It's a combination of all four mage classes.  It just takes 3 to 4 spells from each class, but none of the really epic ones.  My red mage won't be an effective replacement for any of the other jobs.  I'm still debating on whether to give the cure, ice, thunder, and fire or cure 2, fire 2, ice 2, and thunder 2.

I would love to hear what you did with the Squire.  You should PM me about it if you don't want to post about it.

[formerdeathcorps]

I have red mages that are hardly generic but are clear syntheses of all the other mage types.  It hits in elements not used by black magic (which are weaker because they can only be boosted by 108 Gems and have fewer absorptions), inflicts status effects that are different than oracle, and heals better status effects than WM, but without AoE.  That and they have a 1.3 Rafa/Malak style instant random multi-hit spell.
As for squire, I made wish the only instant cure spell that was any good, heal the only decent early game poison remover, and gave them mind/power break.

So you mean that to make sure that 12 Jump and whatever previously blank skill set have the exact skills even though I won't be using 12 Jump?

I was looking in the thread that R999 has in the PSX version sub-forum and you also said something about not having redundancies. What did you mean by that?

Exactly.  Not having redundancies was the idea that you couldn't have a special unit class and a generic unit class share the same skillset because then, the special unit class' mastery of his base class would be tied to his mastery of that generic unit class.

[The Damned]

@Jack: Nothing special really. There more of a preview class with sort of an Onion Knight feel. You'll see what I meant when I called myself a hypocrite.

@Former: I see. Any ideas on what would be causing the current Blue Mage problem then?

Also, do you know of any problems if a special unit class shared the same skillset with Squire (like Ramza)? I'm guessing nothing since Ramza's that way by default really, but since we're changing so much around....

[formerdeathcorps]

Since we are on the subject.  I'm about to do something very similar.  I was going to put a blue mage in my party, until I realized just exactly how tedious it would be for the completionists to grind out 16 blue mages, and more importantly how unbalancing it is to allow players to use iconic blue magic like bad breath, blood suck, and self destruct on standard classes.  So, like you FDC, I made Reis into a blue mage and I've decided to give her skills to the dragoon.

However, unlike you I don't the idea of having to unlock classes with spillover jp.  So, I decided to move the dragoon into the mediator class, which I'd previously eliminated.  I intend on filling Talk Skill with Reis' skills + a new Jump skill which I'm not actually sure how to create yet.  

Now, my idea is that since blank skillsets on generics will have all of their skills mastered automatically, I need to either use Spill Over JP to unlock the class or I can create a job that makes sense for its skills to be pre-mastered.  I eventually landed on the Red Mage, which works just fine if you set the requirements high enough to assume that most of those jobs will have learned those skills anyway.  

So, while the Mediator his Talk Skill are becoming the Dragoon and Dragon Arts, the Lancer and her Jump are becoming the Red Mage and Red Magic.  Now, I want to make sure I've got this right.  I need to change the original Jump Skill to Default and fill it with the 16 skills I want the Red Mage to have.  Then, I need to Assign Skillset 50, or another blankset, to the Lancer and fill it with the exact same skills I put in Jump.

Do I pretty much have that right FDC?  Also, is there a link or something for how to create a Jump Skill in a Default set?

No, you messed up the critical step.  Namely, if your red mage in the lancer slot has 16 skills, your generic squire must also have 16 skills learned.  Otherwise, your red mage will not learn whatever skill your squire didn't.  In other words, if your squire didn't learn his 3rd skill, in combat, your red mage couldn't use his 3rd skill either (even if your red mage learned his 3rd RM skill from the formation menu).  This is why I resorted to spillover JP and had a level 8 squire requirement.

The Damned, are you having the same problem?  Your generic squire needs to have a completely mastered skillset of at least as many attacks as the largest skillset you are replacing for you to be able to use any of those generic skillsets.

[The Damned]

I could have sworn that I had completely mastered all active abilities. Did you mean RSMs as well?

I had also seen it said in the thread that R999 started that having 0 JP abilities causes problems as well. Is this correct? I had been planning to make Squire's abilities cost 5-10 JP uniformly anyway. I just would have preferred not having to re-learn them.

Although I think I just figured out an obvious way around that now....

Blue EDIT: Although, if you're including Blue Mage in this, then my Blue Mage has 16 abilities while my Squire has 15. So I hope not.

If you do, then FFFFFFFff--.

[formerdeathcorps]

RSMs shouldn't matter.  The game keeps track only of the Xth move in the Yth job.  Thus, you shouldn't need to relearn anything if you replace all of squire's original X attacks with some other skillset of X attacks (since you have learned the first X attacks of Basic Skill, you will now know any attacks you modify into the slots of the first X attacks of Basic Skill with FFTPatcher).  As for 0 JP abilities, I don't think that's an issue, but you can test it for yourself.

If blue mage/knight is in the Math Skill slot, there shouldn't be any problems other than slowdown.  Check to make sure the action menu has been set to default from math skill.  Also, what exactly is the problem (what error message are you getting when you try to use blue magic)?

[The Damned]

Oh, sorry. I meant "relearn" things with regards to what I'm doing with Squire, which is completely unrelated to what we're talking with regards to Lancer and such. I shall give that a try.

As for Blue Mage, the problem with I was having that when I learned few abilities that I still had left as Learn by JP, completely different JP abilities would show up. What's even weirder is that the abilities that showed up would work completely fine, unlike Lancer, which wouldn't work at all. (But I've known of that problem for at least a year and a half.)

It was too= the point where I had to test Pep-Up by moving it Paladin. (And then proceeded to find that it worked, but didn't work like how I wanted it to due to the status not being 100%. Sigh. So close....)

[formerdeathcorps]

Were they of the same job?  Was this when Blue Mage was under the calculator skill set?

[The Damned]

"They" being the techniques? If so, then yes. Choco Cure would be learned instead of Pep-up and Aqua Rake instead of Trine. I forgot what replaced Aeroga/Aero 2. I think it might have become Fire Breath.

And, no, this is with Calculator using the Battle Skill Set.

What's even weirder is that the Fire Breath I didn't learn I could teach, so...yeah.

[formerdeathcorps]

Did you perchance put the learn by hit moves before the learn by JP moves when you configured the skillset?

[The Damned]

No. The Blue Mage skill set is currently ordered directly in order that the sixteen monsters are in vanilla, so Chocobo to Goblin to Bomb all the way down to Dragon and Hydra. (This will doubtless change up a bit considering how much I've tried to change monsters. For example, Bombs...aren't going to be beginning monsters anymore, for the player's sake.)

So, they were more or less interspersed: 3 Learn by JP abilities within 13 Learn on Hit ones.

[formerdeathcorps]

No, I mean the physical order.  Let X be moves of the learn by hit only variety and Y be moves of the learn by JP variety.

Did you arrange the blue magic skillset as:

X
X
Y
X
Y
X

OR

X
X
X
X
Y
Y

OR

Y
Y
X
X
X
X?

I'm willing to bet if you did not arrange by the third arrangement, you'd have problems learning your moves correctly because the formation menu may assume an interspersed Y-type move which occupies the 5th slot (for example) actually occupies the second slot (so you end up learning the second slot's attack in battle).

[The Damned]

Hmm...I guess that makes sense. It was the first arrangement.

I shall keep that in mind when testing things then. Blue Magic should be fine otherwise then?

Regardless, thanks.

[Vanya]

Front page got trimmed until I actually have time to put some of those promised tutorials together.
If anyone else feels like writing any I'll be more than happy to add them to the front page for everyone's convenience. ^_^