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FFTA Long Night 0.64 release!

Started by dck, February 21, 2016, 09:19:33 am

Tessa

Hey! I'm not involved in this community at all but I'm really happy to see you still working on a 4 year old hack to a 17 year old game :lol: ! FFTA was one of my favorite games growing up, and your hack has been great for keeping it fresh. This is going to be a lot, and I know some of these would take a huge amount of work.  Pick and choose what you want obviously.  Also I haven't been following the thread, and just skimmed it right before posting this, so sorry in advance if any of this has been addressed and I missed it

More than anything, sorry if this $%#@s all over your vision

You're close to making this what vanilla should have been all along, but the class system needs some tweaking. I'd be less afraid of having units with too-similar growths and more that some classes are better than others at the same job. It doesn't make sense that a lvl50 gladiator turned into a white monk is so much better than a lvl50 white monk, or that a black mage/white mage is better at either than a white mage/black mage. It seems like the drop off between 4>3 atk/pow growth is huge, while going from 4>6 def/res is very minor. Every unit ought to have 4+ atk or pow (paladin should have soldier stats, monks should be the same as duelist, etc.).

This means none of the half-casters really "work," and need to turned into mostly physical or mostly magic classes.  Most of them are too underpowered, while shaman/elementalist is too squishy (it's also weird to give them high attack but super long range abilities?).  The exception is zealot, since HP/atk based abilities synergize with a melee unit instead of detracting from it. Your hack is really min/maxy, lean into by giving everyone a clear mechanical specialty (like how white mages heal, duelists are anti-range, firebreathers do fire)

I like starting stats based on race, but it causes problems with e.g. warriors simply being better than soldiers, while bishops start out very weak and never reach their full potential compared to other casters. Maybe give bangaa/nu mou 2 less speed, moogles/viera 2 more, and give moogles the same atk/def/pow/res as viera (they have a lot of phys units)

Soldier/warrior- I love how you turned these from boring to versatile, really shows how much you can do with minor tweaks alone. Especially great as a 2nd A slot, to fill gaps in other classes skillsets.

Paladin- Needs something extra to give it a more defined purpose.  Maybe some anti-undead stuff, or (if the engine allows it) powerful abilities that burn JP.  Drop weapon should cost MP.

Fighter/Gladiator- give them 2 def.  Right now there's no reason to take other melee units over them

Duelist- I adore this class.  Flavorful and powerful without being *too* OP.  Just change dagger to aim:arm, disable with damage AND range is too much for a class that would still be top tier without it  :lol:

Shaman- Ley lines are hard to use without hitting your own units, and a little too good when you can. Would it be too much animation work to make ninja the onion knight and bring back blue mage, with it getting its abilities from souls?

Hunter/Zealot- Again I know I'm asking for a lot animation wise, but what if you put zealot in the hunter slot (giving capture and ultima to archer), and turned illusionist into a magical fighter with pow based melee abilities (see what I did?  Inverse zealot, the ultimate anti-tank weapon!)- a 6MP fire/lightning/blizzard punch, double attack for 18MP, etc. Give it firebreather growths, but 4 def and 1 res. You'd have really fun synergy with different 2nd A slots- WM for a healer on the front lines, or BM for some range! The nu mou and human versions would both be good while feeling very different, with the nu mou being more of a glass cannon. This would elegantly solve a lot of problems at once. Two bowman classes is redundant, especially when humans and viera each get their own. Nu mou have the exact wrong stats for zealot, and this would give them a melee class that gels with their stats. Humans need more magic options, and leylines (if you keep shaman) would be easier to use with a frontline unit than a squish that needs to hide behind your tanks

Cultist- I love zombify but too many abilities are multi-turn combos that take too long to be worthwhile.  Maybe turn it into a dark/holy mage, keeping kyrie, undead, drain, and ritual and give it plague, holy or sanctus, and cure? We could use a moogle healer

Gunner- Guns should do more damage to keep them competitive with bows

Firebreather- SO GREAT FUNNEST CLASS EVER.  The only thing I'd change is making incandescence damage and disarm only

Bishop/Dragoon- Give bishop higher MP/pow growths so it isn't so held back by its starting stats.  Give dragoon 4 atk/pow in exchange for 3 HP and 2 res. It won't be OP since only being able to equip armor means it trades speed and res for versatility, and low starting pow means breaths will never be that strong, especially early/mid game

Defender- The problem with a "defender" class is that's every bangaa class! Why not a samurai with draw weapon who can equip katanas and bows? Or even just a straight bowman, to make use of the high starting atk

Nu Mou casters- Sage and alchemist are kind of pointless.  Maybe make one a buff-focused class and give the other more status effects.  Make them, psion, and white mage all have black mage stats.  Then the starting nu mou can fill 2 of any 5 roles, and you can change them depending on the battle

Forest guard- This one is an odd duck and I'm not sure what to do about it. 

Dream walker- Not sure how I feel about this one, it's weird and hard to use

Paragon- A little bland. Maybe give it the same stats as gladiator/fighter, and more duelist like abilities

Summoner- The best viera caster, but the growths make more sense for a red mage. Needs more MP and less HP

Red mage- There's no way for target all attacks to do enough damage to matter without being OP.  Why not keep it more like vanilla and give her a 0 AOE fire/lightning/blizzard/cure/poison, and maybe get doublecast from the beginning

Elementalist- Not as useful in practice as it should be, compared to other units.  There's better units for ranged status effects, so it's main abilities are mostly very little damage for a relatively large amount of MP, and the power attacks hit too rarely to be worth trying unless you're out of MP.  Increase the pow and MP growths if nothing else

Half MP- This is kind of overpowered when MP doesn't regen (since you're getting DOUBLE your normal amount of abilities), as a I discovered in one run where I got it at level 6 (my gladiator/templar was ridiculous, since I also got intercession at level 15).  Maybe make it 2/3?

Whew, that was more than I meant to write when I started...
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

dck

Hi!
It's kinda funny that when people talk about the mod it's always in very long posts/DMs, though I always take it as the mod being fun enough to warrant that attention instead of something negative, haha!

The issues you bring up with stats are interesting:
It's hard to judge how jobs perform because weapon damage is extremely overpowered, the damage formula (which is horrendous) takes main weapon + equipment atk bonus as a total for both its damage multiplier and flat bonus. On top of any weapon, it's possible to stack 30+ atk bonus with just shop items- this yields almost 2x more damage than intended for some weapon types.
Meanwhile magic just has its base ability power and additions are just that, additive. It makes focused power users match up with weapons (a little) due to sheer numbers, but hybrids fall flat because the numbers are smaller. Point of this is, stats need to be looked at when this damage formula changes to be just atk - def = dmg.

On that topic still, bulk has already been increased with higher HP minimums. Under a certain amount units just don't function well and Zealots really don't need to have over 3x the HP of Shamans. Defense might actually be hilariously overtuned after conversion to a no-multiplier weapon damage formula, so in general everything will be tinkered with.

Different speed spots for races within their tier is cool and I don't think I ever tried it. A simple base speed of 1(Bangaa, Nu mou), 2(Hume, Viera) and 3(Moogles) wouldn't change overall turn amounts but would let plate Moogles act before plate Bangaas/Humes, for example.

Now tying this into your comments for jobs. The reason they all cover different stat niches is that when I started the mod almost everything was limited. Jobs, races, abilities, effects.
That's no longer the case. With the newer options a very resourceful developer has been putting together it's possible to add unreasonably large amounts of unique jobs, abilities and more.

This enables not only more custom units, but also to reintroduce any job that has been cut and to port some from A2 that would work well.
I probably won't bring back some old jobs without a good idea behind them, but the potential for expanding the job pool is enough that stat growths don't need to massively define what an unit can or can't do.

Now regarding the direct job comments:

White Monk
Gladiator turned monk hits hard but it doesn't really have the MP to make any use either Iron Will or most of the abilities.
Question is, does it need to? I guess not because it can apply 350 base attack twice in one Fight command.
That sounds like an argument for shifting some of the job's damage into the weapon itself; can't be done with the current formula but with a new one it definitely could.

Paladin
Paladin definitely needs a few more identity-defining abilities. Prayer and Saint Cross are cool but it could use merging Cover and Defend to make a 4th holy ability.

Duelist
The new job most work went into and one of my favourites too. Looking back it really didn't need ranged disables with the already strong kit, not damaging ones at that :D

Shaman/Ele
I found their offensive/MP focused growths work pretty well. They're getting more HP with the stat revision but I like being able to competently whack people in melee as well as their unique options at 0 MP.
I also like that Shaman's massive range acts like an Illusionist-lite, rewarding positioning (maybe too much); Ele on the other hand needs more unique ability design since I just don't like her 0 MP abilities all being inconsistent damage spikes.

Hunter
Hunter is in a weird spot but it needs a serious revamp rather than dying, Capture can be moved to an item, now that we can make proper Item abilities that actually use them up. As a whole though, Monsters are very dangerous and I think should have a few more counters, not less.

New class
I do have a planned Viera/Nu mou job similar to your description for when Spellblades are put in the game, so no worries there!

Racial uniqueness
I initially didn't like Nu mou being just "the magic boys", same as I didn't like Bangaa being "the tough lads"- that said, now we have tools enough to expand on ways they can use their stronger stats without dabbling into archetypes that spread them too thin.

The original Sage will definitely come back (without cutting Professor) and with those, Alch is getting seriously changed to avoid overlap.
Dream Walker suffered from being limited in ability slots, as it was sharing them with monsters. Ranger was... Experimental? It's not bad, but it will be flavored differently in the future.

On the Bangaa side, I know the power based abilities have a very rough start and it will be looked at. It was kind of intended for Dragoons to only develop breath damage with investment, but they might become closer to tankier Shamans since they also have a good set of rather long range abilities.

Also that ranged/melee fighter idea isn't bad at all. I wouldn't kill Defender (probably) as I want more Bangaa overall since they have the lowest job count. It might be 2h guns or something else instead of bows, but still worth keeping in mind.

Cultist
Pretty sure the uploaded version has the Cultist with unbuffed Dark Pact/Sever Link. Ritual is different as well, though all in all the job might still need touch ups as well. The list in OP is updated if you wanna check this stuff.

Gunner
The whole meme with guns is that they're 1h weapons and thus can be dual wielded. Didn't actually make their ambidex available in current patch though!

Firebreather
E N T H U S I A S M
I really like this job because a friend of mine was really pissed that I'd waste a job making it themed on one element. One run after release he actually tried it and it's his staple ever since lmao.

Paragon
Currently her only change is having a higher AoE Swallowtail. I think it's ok for her to be simpler, but I really want to get a heavy armor only Viera that can stand out as something different altogether.

Red Mage
So I had an idea of giving her unlearnable Doublecast, but I just don't think other abilities should be balanced around RM casting them twice. I never considered giving her Doublecast as a basic ability from the start, but I definitely will try it.
Also I've hated the fullscreen attacks since forever anyway, so they can prob just all get thrown away and replaced with direct, no AoE abilities as suggested. Good ideas all around!

1/2 MP!
It was literally the first thing I ever had reported as OP and I never remembered to gut it in some way. It really has no room in the MP-tight battle design so something will be done.

That's about it, also heres a tl;dr for the current goals and WIPs for the mod:

Redo descriptions so they work in the new system.
Repoint abilities for every race.
Repoint ability effects.
Repoint ability animations.
Redo stats according to new formula.
Finish worldwyrm.
Re-add/design/import 4 jobs for Bangaa and 3 for non-Humes.
Replace abilities unnecessarily repeated through sets.
Move away from 0 AP system to JP learning.
Balance for cheaper abilities found in items that require you own the item to learn them, as well as always available but more expensive ones that you can work towards over time.
Also account for new jobs without worsening item bloat.
Delete JP cost from Combos.
Increase Combo participant bonus to compensate for JP bonus loss.
Continue development past Mateus.

Also, I'm open to suggestions as for what job concepts people would like to see covered/returning. I've always just done it on my own due to all the constraints but given the extra freedom it's not bad to have a few more ideas. Just writing this post was already good for getting a good overview of things to work on.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: adri#1824

Dual-Wielding Ninja

Quote from: dck on August 30, 2020, 01:33:10 pmAlso, I'm open to suggestions as for what job concepts people would like to see covered/returning. I've always just done it on my own due to all the constraints but given the extra freedom it's not bad to have a few more ideas. Just writing this post was already good for getting a good overview of things to work on.
If possible, would love it if you imported the whole Mirror Items gimmick over to Alchemist as well as give them Mix and Stash from Final Fantasy X-2!

Or at the very least, update Firebreather so that they're basically a living Fire Force along with a name change to "Pyromancer".
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Dual-Wielding Ninja

Tessa

Quote from: undefinedHi!
It's kinda funny that when people talk about the mod it's always in very long posts/DMs, though I always take it as the mod being fun enough to warrant that attention instead of something negative, haha!
Oh definitely! Like I said I've been playing FFTA for years and years and have the vanilla meta mastered. Relearning it for your hack has been a lot of fun.  I do a couple FFTA playthroughs a year and your version has replaced vanilla for me.  I think I'm on run #7?

QuoteThe issues you bring up with stats are interesting:
It's hard to judge how jobs perform because weapon damage is extremely overpowered, the damage formula (which is horrendous) takes main weapon + equipment atk bonus as a total for both its damage multiplier and flat bonus. On top of any weapon, it's possible to stack 30+ atk bonus with just shop items- this yields almost 2x more damage than intended for some weapon types.
Meanwhile magic just has its base ability power and additions are just that, additive. It makes focused power users match up with weapons (a little) due to sheer numbers, but hybrids fall flat because the numbers are smaller. Point of this is, stats need to be looked at when this damage formula changes to be just atk - def = dmg.

Thanks for that explanation! Is the atk bonus issue why some abilities in vanilla (air render) start out much more powerful than regular attacks, but get much less over time? I thought it might have something to do with equipment but I've never looked at the combat math under the hood

QuoteDifferent speed spots for races within their tier is cool and I don't think I ever tried it. A simple base speed of 1(Bangaa, Nu mou), 2(Hume, Viera) and 3(Moogles) wouldn't change overall turn amounts but would let plate Moogles act before plate Bangaas/Humes, for example.

I might think about having a few items with a 1 or 2 speed bonus too. The way the hack does speed is vastly better than vanilla but you could use more granularity between units


QuoteNow tying this into your comments for jobs. The reason they all cover different stat niches is that when I started the mod almost everything was limited. Jobs, races, abilities, effects.
That's no longer the case. With the newer options a very resourceful developer has been putting together it's possible to add unreasonably large amounts of unique jobs, abilities and more.

This enables not only more custom units, but also to reintroduce any job that has been cut and to port some from A2 that would work well.
I probably won't bring back some old jobs without a good idea behind them, but the potential for expanding the job pool is enough that stat growths don't need to massively define what an unit can or can't do.

Good to know!  I was wracking my brain to think of new unit ideas using what vanilla gives and it's HARD!

QuoteWhite Monk
Gladiator turned monk hits hard but it doesn't really have the MP to make any use either Iron Will or most of the abilities.
Question is, does it need to? I guess not because it can apply 350 base attack twice in one Fight command.
That sounds like an argument for shifting some of the job's damage into the weapon itself; can't be done with the current formula but with a new one it definitely could.

True, but I didn't really miss them with the ridiculous amount of damage it does. Sounds like the changes you're making to the combat math will fix that though

QuotePaladin definitely needs a few more identity-defining abilities. Prayer and Saint Cross are cool but it could use merging Cover and Defend to make a 4th holy ability.
Cover/defend would be great! I still think you need more anti undead abilities, maybe an attack that stops them from reviving if it kills them. This seems like one that will really benefit from half casters being more viable

QuoteShaman/Ele
I found their offensive/MP focused growths work pretty well. They're getting more HP with the stat revision but I like being able to competently whack people in melee as well as their unique options at 0 MP.
I also like that Shaman's massive range acts like an Illusionist-lite, rewarding positioning (maybe too much); Ele on the other hand needs more unique ability design since I just don't like her 0 MP abilities all being inconsistent damage spikes.
Tbh I hadn't used shaman much outside starting my 2nd human as one my 1st playthrough, when I really needed another heavy.  I tried Shaman as one of my BMs 2nd slot and really liked it. I'll give it another shot

QuoteHunter
Hunter is in a weird spot but it needs a serious revamp rather than dying, Capture can be moved to an item, now that we can make proper Item abilities that actually use them up. As a whole though, Monsters are very dangerous and I think should have a few more counters, not less.

I'm just not a huge fan of bows in FFTA. Monsters need more counters but I think they should be spread between more classes instead of concentrated in one class that's less useful when you aren't facing them.  If you're keeping it I'd definitely drop the cost of sidewinder and sonic boom

QuoteThe original Sage will definitely come back
I like that a lot.  I feel like I'm locked into making my starting NM a WM to take advantage of it's power, which locks me into BM so it has some offense.  Sage opens up a lot of options!

Quote(without cutting Professor)
I was a bit harsh on it, it's a good idea but currently the high MP abilities don't give enough bang for your buck and mean it doesn't synergize well with most other NM classes
QuoteAlch is getting seriously changed to avoid overlap.
Oh neat, what do you have in mind?

QuoteDream Walker suffered from being limited in ability slots, as it was sharing them with monsters.
I like the idea of a shock trooper that heals itself as it hits, which is a cool way to compensate for lower atk, and the stare abilities fit that role well. The real problem is it doesn't do enough damage to be worth using.  With the current math that might be as simple as giving souls more damage.  Cultist could use it too

QuoteRanger was... Experimental? It's not bad, but it will be flavored differently in the future.
I like the idea of trading debuffs, it's a neat way to add "cost" beyond MP. The issue right now is trading the same debuff gives no net advantage, and plenty of other units can debuff without it. Maybe double up on enemy debuffs, like disable/immobilize in exchange for silence. Thinks that change the flow of combat in quirky, asymmetrical ways. Maybe even give some high level abilities with a blood sacrifice theme, like one that kills a nearly dead monster for a major self buff

QuoteOn the Bangaa side, I know the power based abilities have a very rough start and it will be looked at.
It's a shame because I really like bishops on the whole! Another issue is you have limited options for their 2nd A slot.  Since they don't get any offensive abilities until late game you're forced to use Dragoon.  The breath attacks make for a fun and unique unit, but it has an odd power curve, starting out really weak and useless once it goes through it's meager MP, then suddenly getting ridiculous mid game (esp with a black robe) then kinda suboptimal late game as other mages overtake it, especially without a way to regain MP on its own.  The last parts a shame since that's when it gets its best abilities!
QuoteIt was kind of intended for Dragoons to only develop breath damage with investment, but they might become closer to tankier Shamans since they also have a good set of rather long range abilities.
I think they'll find their place with different combat math etc.  Lmao what if you made them robe-only, sort of the Bangaa's speedy light attacker

Also that ranged/melee fighter idea isn't bad at all. I wouldn't kill Defender (probably) as I want more Bangaa overall since they have the lowest job count. It might be 2h guns or something else instead of bows, but still worth keeping in mind.

Cultist
Pretty sure the uploaded version has the Cultist with unbuffed Dark Pact/Sever Link. Ritual is different as well, though all in all the job might still need touch ups as well. The list in OP is updated if you wanna check this stuff.
Whoops  :lol: TBH I haven't used it much outside my first playthrough (undead was critical for boss battles with with my badly optimized party). That's another one I should try again.

QuoteGunner
The whole meme with guns is that they're 1h weapons and thus can be dual wielded. Didn't actually make their ambidex available in current patch though!
Ohhhhhhhhhhh!  That'll be really cool, especially if you do the speed changes

QuoteFirebreather
E N T H U S I A S M
I really like this job because a friend of mine was really pissed that I'd waste a job making it themed on one element. One run after release he actually tried it and it's his staple ever since lmao.
I was skeptical too, but the ability list sounded too much fun not to use!  I think that's the only job I've used every single time
I've yet to find the Enthusiasm item, unfortunately  :cry:
QuoteParagon
Currently her only change is having a higher AoE Swallowtail. I think it's ok for her to be simpler, but I really want to get a heavy armor only Viera that can stand out as something different altogether.
I like the swallowtail change.  Bland was the wrong word, but it needs more variety to its stillset. Give her First Aid at least!

Quote1/2 MP!
It was literally the first thing I ever had reported as OP and I never remembered to gut it in some way. It really has no room in the MP-tight battle design so something will be done.
What about bringing back MP regen as an s ability, maybe slower than vanillas? I like the idea of MP manipulation but I feel like a flat reduction has the same too much/not problem as target all

QuoteMove away from 0 AP system to JP learning.
Balance for cheaper abilities found in items that require you own the item to learn them, as well as always available but more expensive ones that you can work towards over time.
I like this idea! AP learning was by far the worst part of vanilla (I can't go back now  :lol: ) but now your party is a little too determined by what items you find.  Which is fun too but not what you're going for I think.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

Tessa

Quote from: dck on August 30, 2020, 01:33:10 pmShaman/Ele
I found their offensive/MP focused growths work pretty well. They're getting more HP with the stat revision but I like being able to competently whack people in melee as well as their unique options at 0 MP.
I also like that Shaman's massive range acts like an Illusionist-lite, rewarding positioning (maybe too much); Ele on the other hand needs more unique ability design since I just don't like her 0 MP abilities all being inconsistent damage spikes.

Started a new run and my shaman/WM is turning out to be an absolute MVP. I love how its role changes over the course of battle (debuffer->healer->melee/human shield) and how it is still useful after it runs out of MP.  I wouldn't give it too much HP, making it vulnerable to archers means you have to be more careful with positioning.  If anything it might need more MP

Ele doesn't need too much reworking, just make it a mid range mid damage debuffer like vanilla. Or maybe a class built around changing elemental resistance (reliably, not like elementshift)
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

Retrogamer1987

Just discovered this mod! Almost everything having such high MP costs scares me a bit, im curious for those who tried so far how well balanced it is. Are you able to make adequate use of all your abilities?
  • Modding version: PSX & WotL

Tessa

Quote from: Retrogamer1987 on February 11, 2021, 02:01:11 amJust discovered this mod! Almost everything having such high MP costs scares me a bit, im curious for those who tried so far how well balanced it is. Are you able to make adequate use of all your abilities?

It's pretty brutal early game, but only until level 15 or so. Gotta learn to make those abilities count!
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown